Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Saberus 04-30-07, 05:15 PM	My Half-troll thread died, and I'm still in a quandary as to it's balance. But that's not important to this one. Cere No one is exactly sure where the Cere originates. One thing, however, is certain: where ever there is a city, there are Cere. In fact, outside cities or trade routes, Cere are almost never found. Cere are found throughout cities, performing in virtually every trade. It is only by virtue of their small population that they don't take every job in a given city. Crafts come easily to the Cere, as does magic. Almost every Cere knows at least one spell, and all have a knack for identifying magic. They are especially fond of arcane magic. Humor is a lost cause on most Cere, a fact most gnomes are quick to point out. A typical Cere stands about 3 feet tall and weighs around 25 pounds. They vary in skintone between eggshell white and medium gray. Their heads seem oversized atop their thin frames. They sport no body hair, and have large, almond shaped, jet black eyes. Their hands have long, delicate fingers. Despite the smallness of their bodies, they are curiously strong. They dress with little flair or finery, and no apparent difference exists between male and female attire. Cere mature at the age of 35, and typically live to around 200. Gnomes prefer not to associate with Cere, but Cere share no such qualms. Cere will generally conduct business with any race, only excluding individuals who have proven themselves untrustworthy. For unknown reasons, Cere cannot interbreed with any other race. Cere tend to prefer neutrality over good, and good over evil. They dislike chaos, preferring to follow their own good judgment. Cere live in the cities of other races, rarely taking positions of power. If one does hold such a position, it is usually heading a guild, or a minor government post. Cere homes tend to be large, with 6-10 families sharing about twice that number of rooms. The house as a whole participates in educating the young, but leave discipline solely in the hands of the child's parents. Most Cere claim Baccob as their deity, though evil Cere may follow the teachings of Vecna. Knowledge is power to Cere, and they will gravitate toward any god that carries the Knowledge domain. Cere speak their own language, also known as Cere, which has its own alphabet consisting of geometric patterns. Most Cere can speak the main language of their home city. Cere typically don't take names, referring to each other only as "Cere". Cere instinctively know when they are being addressed. Cere will sometimes accept a nickname given to them by members of other races, if it makes it easier on them. Cere leave citiesonly when searching for knowledge, typically taking a class or two to make things easier overall. +2 Int, -2 Con: Cere crave information, but their emaciated frames are sometimes a liability. Small: As a Small creature, a Cere gains a +1 size bonus to AC, a +1 size bonus to Attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus to Hide checks, but use smaller weapons. Lifting and carrying limits are 3/4 those of Medium creatures. Cere base land speed is 20 feet. Low-light vision +2 to saves vs. Enchantments +1 to DC of any spells cast by a Cere +2 racial bonus on Spellcraft checks. Spell-like abilities: At creation, a Cere character may choose a number of spells up to his intelligence modifier. These must be 0-level Wizard spells, and cannot be changed once set. These spells may be cast once a day. The Cere must provide spell components. Caster level 1st; save DC(if applicable) is 10+Int modifier+spell level. Bloodline Incompatablity: For unknown reasons, Cere cannot interbreed with other races. A Cere character cannot start with any augmented Template (Half-Fiend, for example). A Cere may still gain acquired templates, such as (infected) Lycanthrope, Lich, Vampire, or Half-Dragon(if acquired through a class, like Dragon Disciple) Automatic Languages: Cere and Common. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Halfling, Draconic Favored Class: Wizard Haven't completed the age, height, and weight charts yet. I'm willing to give them a -2 to Str or Cha,if necessary. The current edits: Cere Racial Traits +2 Int, +2 Wis, -2 Con, -2 Cha: Cere crave information, but their emaciated frames are sometimes a liability. Their distant nature also makes it difficult to interact with others. Small: As a Small creature, a Cere gains a +1 size bonus to AC, a +1 size bonus to Attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus to Hide checks, but use smaller weapons. Lifting and carrying limits are 3/4 those of Medium creatures. Cere base land speed is 20 feet. +2 racial bonus on Spellcraft checks. +2 to saves vs. Enchantments. +1 to DC of spells of one school, chosen at character creation. Spell-like abilities: At creation, a Cere character may choose a number of spells up to his intelligence modifier. These must be 0-level Wizard spells, and cannot be changed once set. These spells may be cast once a day. Caster level 1st; save DC(if applicable) is 10+Int modifier+spell level. Automatic Languages: Cere and Common. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Halfling, Draconic Favored Class: Wizard
bobothechimp 04-30-07, 05:23 PM	They probably do need another penalty. I would say strength.
Disciple_of_Juiblex 04-30-07, 08:16 PM	I agree, they NEED another penalty, Str. They are small and all small races (that im aware of that are la+0) have a str penalty.
AMGriffin 04-30-07, 08:22 PM	Bah, you don't need a strength penalty. Anyway, this race seems a bit powerful for LA+0, it'll be a ridiculously good mage. Like the half-troll, it suffers from being heavily pidgeon-holed. The blood incompatibility trait also doesn't make sense. They couldn't become dragon disciples as that would imply they have draconic ancestry.
Leress 04-30-07, 08:35 PM	My Half-troll thread died, and I'm still in a quandary as to it's balance. But that's not important to this one. Humanoid +2 Int, -2 Con: Cere crave information, but their emaciated frames are sometimes a liability. Small: As a Small creature, a Cere gains a +1 size bonus to AC, a +1 size bonus to Attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus to Hide checks, but use smaller weapons. Lifting and carrying limits are 3/4 those of Medium creatures. Cere base land speed is 20 feet. Low-light vision +2 to saves vs. Enchantments I would remove this one +1 to DC of any spells cast by a Cere +2 racial bonus on Spellcraft checks. Spell-like abilities: At creation, a Cere character may choose a number of spells up to his intelligence modifier. These must be 0-level Wizard spells, and cannot be changed once set. These spells may be cast once a day. The Cere must provide spell components. Caster level 1st; save DC(if applicable) is 10+Int modifier+spell level. Okay SLA don't need spell components since they are SLAs; the caster level of those spells should equal there character level. Bloodline Incompatablity: For unknown reasons, Cere cannot interbreed with other races. A Cere character cannot start with any augmented Template (Half-Fiend, for example). A Cere may still gain acquired templates, such as (infected) Lycanthrope, Lich, Vampire, or Half-Dragon(if acquired through a class, like Dragon Disciple) This isn't really used to balance if this class is of appropriate LA. Automatic Languages: Cere and Common. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Halfling, Draconic Favored Class: Wizard Haven't completed the age, height, and weight charts yet. I'm willing to give them a -2 to Str or Cha,if necessary. The bold is mine
Vharuck 04-30-07, 08:37 PM	Bah, you don't need a strength penalty. Anyway, this race seems a bit powerful for LA+0, it'll be a ridiculously good mage. Like the half-troll, it suffers from being heavily pidgeon-holed. The blood incompatibility trait also doesn't make sense. They couldn't become dragon disciples as that would imply they have draconic ancestry. Agreed on both counts. This race gives a +2 to the save DC when casting any spell as a wizard. That's really powerful. Also, humans seem to be the only race capable of cross-breeding the natural way, with divine and infernal heritage coming from either polymorphing or rituals and draconic coming from polymorphing. Rarely is it straight forward hanky panky. Also, with the spell-like abilities, spell-like abilities as a rule do not need material or XP components.
Saberus 04-30-07, 09:32 PM	I made the changes suggested, let's try it now. Humanoid +2 Int, -2 Con, -2 Str: Cere crave information, but their emaciated frames are sometimes a liability. Small: As a Small creature, a Cere gains a +1 size bonus to AC, a +1 size bonus to Attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus to Hide checks, but use smaller weapons. Lifting and carrying limits are 3/4 those of Medium creatures. Cere base land speed is 20 feet. Low-light vision +2 racial bonus on Spellcraft checks. Spell-like abilities: At creation, a Cere character may choose a number of spells up to his intelligence modifier. These must be 0-level Wizard spells, and cannot be changed once set. These spells may be cast once a day. Caster level 1st; save DC(if applicable) is 10+Int modifier+spell level. Bloodline Incompatablity: Removed (Was to prevent a template monster that had oodles of 0-level spells.) Automatic Languages: Cere and Common. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Halfling, Draconic Favored Class: Wizard Thanks for the help. The reason I'm working on both races is that I'm trying to build a custom campaign setting, Though I'm gonna need a miracle to build the classes I want to include.
Disciple_of_Juiblex 04-30-07, 10:36 PM	Gnomes. Gnomes have a -2 to strength ...
Vharuck 04-30-07, 11:24 PM	Gnomes have a -2 to strength ... Really? Oh, I stand corrected. :embarrass
3point14159rate 05-01-07, 12:42 AM	I think you've weakened the class a bit too much. I believe that the suggested -2 str was appropriate when you had +2 ench saves and/or +1 all saves. Your revised version has an overall -2 modifier (including str and con, further pigeonholing your char away from anything but spellcasting) and you nixed both spellcasting bonuses. I think one bonus and the -2 overall mod, or no bonuses and an even mod would be appropriate. -3.14159rate
Saberus 05-01-07, 07:22 AM	So, like this? Cere Racial Traits Humanoid +2 Int, -2 Con, -2 Str: Cere crave information, but their emaciated frames are sometimes a liability. Small: As a Small creature, a Cere gains a +1 size bonus to AC, a +1 size bonus to Attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus to Hide checks, but use smaller weapons. Lifting and carrying limits are 3/4 those of Medium creatures. Cere base land speed is 20 feet. Low-light vision +2 racial bonus on Spellcraft checks. +1 DC to all saves vs. spells cast by the Cere. Spell-like abilities: At creation, a Cere character may choose a number of spells up to his intelligence modifier. These must be 0-level Wizard spells, and cannot be changed once set. These spells may be cast once a day. Caster level 1st; save DC(if applicable) is 10+Int modifier+spell level. Automatic Languages: Cere and Common. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Halfling, Draconic Favored Class: Wizard I know I'm kind of driving them to spellcasting, but aren't half-orcs kinda geared to barbarian?
3point14159rate 05-01-07, 11:40 AM	Ok: My humble opinion: Cere Racial Traits Humanoid Totally normal, needs no attention +2 Int, -2 Con, -2 Str: Cere crave information, but their emaciated frames are sometimes a liability.-2 overall modifier: Str and Con make it almost impossible to play a combat class, I'd call this a significant negative for balancing. Small: As a Small creature, a Cere gains a +1 size bonus to AC, a +1 size bonus to Attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus to Hide checks, but use smaller weapons. Lifting and carrying limits are 3/4 those of Medium creatures. Small: Further incentive not to play combat class, generally seen as a negative. Cere base land speed is 20 feet.Slow: definite negative Low-light vision Low light: positive, maybe worth 1 feat +2 racial bonus on Spellcraft checks.+2 on a skill, positive, worth 1/2 a feat +1 DC to all saves vs. spells cast by the Cere. Spell focus in all schools, should be 8 feats. However, not too dissimilar to elven weapon proficiency, which would be a LOT of feats, but doesn't really equal up to that for balancing purposes. Still your most significant positive. Spell-like abilities: At creation, a Cere character may choose a number of spells up to his intelligence modifier. These must be 0-level Wizard spells, and cannot be changed once set. These spells may be cast once a day. Caster level 1st; save DC(if applicable) is 10+Int modifier+spell level. 0th level spells can almost be ignored as a bonus, worth a feat maybe, though all of the arcane adept feats give some 0ths and a 1st. Still, a positive. Automatic Languages: Cere and Common. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Halfling, Draconic fairly standard Favored Class: Wizard obviously! I know I'm kind of driving them to spellcasting, but aren't half-orcs kinda geared to barbarian? Towards melee certainly. Halflings are geared towards rogue. I don't see a problem. I think this is completley balanced, if maybe a bit underpowered, at least numerically. However, when I ask myself "What race should by wizard be?" if Cere is available, I can't see myself ever playing anything else. That speaks of its balance, to a degree. 3.14159rate
Neutronium_Dragon 05-01-07, 01:08 PM	+2 Int OR +1 to spell DC would be okay. Having both is an overload. Perhaps replace the DC bonus with something more moderate, such as +1 to caster level with spells of one descriptor of their choice ( [fire], [good], etc ).
Saberus 05-01-07, 03:05 PM	What if I dropped both the Str penalty and the +1 DC? The Int is probably the biggest catch, maybe that's why the base races didn't get mental bonuses.
3point14159rate 05-01-07, 03:07 PM	If you dropped the +1 DC and the Str penalty, I think you'd still be a bit underpowered. Perhaps you could add back in your bonus to Ench. Spells (maybe at a +1?)
Saberus 05-01-07, 03:12 PM	Ok, lets see what that looks like: Cere Racial Traits +2 Int, -2 Con: Cere crave information, but their emaciated frames are sometimes a liability. Small: As a Small creature, a Cere gains a +1 size bonus to AC, a +1 size bonus to Attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus to Hide checks, but use smaller weapons. Lifting and carrying limits are 3/4 those of Medium creatures. Cere base land speed is 20 feet. Low-light vision +2 racial bonus on Spellcraft checks. +1 to saves vs. Enchantments Spell-like abilities: At creation, a Cere character may choose a number of spells up to his intelligence modifier. These must be 0-level Wizard spells, and cannot be changed once set. These spells may be cast once a day. Caster level 1st; save DC(if applicable) is 10+Int modifier+spell level. Automatic Languages: Cere and Common. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Halfling, Draconic Favored Class: Wizard Your advice will bring these buggers to life! This is really helping, thanks!
bobothechimp 05-01-07, 04:34 PM	Looks good to me.
AMGriffin 05-01-07, 04:49 PM	I know I'm kind of driving them to spellcasting, but aren't half-orcs kinda geared to barbarian? Yes, half-orcs also are unbalanced. So are Orcs for that matter. Using the half-orc as a means of comparison for anything (say for saying something along the lines of "Half-elves suck, even half-orcs are better then them."). The real kicker of it is half-orcs aren't even overpowered as barbarians, they're pretty good, but not overpowered. When a PC is ridiculously good at something (say fighting, in the instance of a full-blooded orc) but is a failure at everything else, that's about as broken as you can get. Your race was coming close to that with such a heavy inclination towards being a caster, I don't even know if it in theory could be a sorcerer because sorcerery implies having a magical ancestor. *Continues to rant for several hours*
Crimson_Concerto 05-01-07, 05:44 PM	Well, to be fair, I don't think Half-Orcs aren't really horrible at being divine casters, and they can easily pull off being Monks or archers. Their racial features themselves don't specifically require they be a certain type of class to be effective, unlike with the Cere, who need to be spellcasters of some sort or never make use of some features, so I say get rid of the Spellcraft bonus (classes without Spellcraft as a class skill can't make use of it at all), and don't give them any save DC boosts to their spells. They get enough of that from their INT bonus. I would go with: +2 Int, -2 STR, -2 Con Small 20 feet base land speed Low-light vision +2 to saves vs. Enchantments Spell-like abilities: At creation, a Cere character may choose a number of spells up to his intelligence modifier. These must be 0-level Wizard spells, and cannot be changed once set. These spells may be cast once a day. Caster level 1st; save DC(if applicable) is 10+Int modifier+spell level. Automatic Languages: Cere and Common. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Halfling, Draconic Favored Class: Wizard That seems perfect to me. This way, their racial abilities benifit any class. The race could pull off being any non-melee oriented character now, I think. Skill-monkeys such as rogues would benifit a lot form the extra skill points and utility spells. They can even make okay archers.
Suden 05-01-07, 08:15 PM	Ok, lets see what that looks like: Cere Racial Traits +2 Int, -2 Con: Cere crave information, but their emaciated frames are sometimes a liability. Small: As a Small creature, a Cere gains a +1 size bonus to AC, a +1 size bonus to Attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus to Hide checks, but use smaller weapons. Lifting and carrying limits are 3/4 those of Medium creatures. Cere base land speed is 20 feet. Low-light vision +2 racial bonus on Spellcraft checks. +1 to saves vs. Enchantments Spell-like abilities: At creation, a Cere character may choose a number of spells up to his intelligence modifier. These must be 0-level Wizard spells, and cannot be changed once set. These spells may be cast once a day. Caster level 1st; save DC(if applicable) is 10+Int modifier+spell level. Automatic Languages: Cere and Common. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Halfling, Draconic Favored Class: Wizard Your advice will bring these buggers to life! This is really helping, thanks! I think this seems a little bit underpowered. I like the lowered Con as a price for the Int, but 1 hp per level and a -1 to fort saves is a harsh price for a +1 to DCs and a skill point per level. You might want to give the race a +2 Wis as well. That would give them a will bonus as well as open up a few more character options. It also works with the background, they are a fragile race who had the wisdom to develop an almost symbiotic arrangement with larger races, they also dwell harmoniously in crowded conditions. You could lose the low light vision though, a race that dwells almost exclusively in an urban environment doesn't seem likely to develop superior visual skills.
leomunds_assistant 05-01-07, 09:11 PM	I would possibly add a -2 cha because of their no humor straight forward sense of style. Their behavior would make them boring to be around the way I see it. With this -2 I think It would be good enough to add the +1 to all schools thing.
Saberus 05-01-07, 09:30 PM	I would possibly add a -2 cha because of their no humor straight forward sense of style. Their behavior would make them boring to be around the way I see it. With this -2 I think It would be good enough to add the +1 to all schools thing. True, and fit my original concept. I think this seems a little bit underpowered. I like the lowered Con as a price for the Int, but 1 hp per level and a -1 to fort saves is a harsh price for a +1 to DCs and a skill point per level. You might want to give the race a +2 Wis as well. That would give them a will bonus as well as open up a few more character options. It also works with the background, they are a fragile race who had the wisdom to develop an almost symbiotic arrangement with larger races, they also dwell harmoniously in crowded conditions. You could lose the low light vision though, a race that dwells almost exclusively in an urban environment doesn't seem likely to develop superior visual skills. Welcome advice, and again, would fit my original concept. But I don't want to give them a long list of stat adjustments. Well, to be fair, I don't think Half-Orcs aren't really horrible at being divine casters, and they can easily pull off being Monks or archers. Their racial features themselves don't specifically require they be a certain type of class to be effective, unlike with the Cere, who need to be spellcasters of some sort or never make use of some features, so I say get rid of the Spellcraft bonus (classes without Spellcraft as a class skill can't make use of it at all), and don't give them any save DC boosts to their spells. They get enough of that from their INT bonus. I would go with: +2 Int, -2 STR, -2 Con Small 20 feet base land speed Low-light vision +2 to saves vs. Enchantments Spell-like abilities: At creation, a Cere character may choose a number of spells up to his intelligence modifier. These must be 0-level Wizard spells, and cannot be changed once set. These spells may be cast once a day. Caster level 1st; save DC(if applicable) is 10+Int modifier+spell level. Automatic Languages: Cere and Common. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Halfling, Draconic Favored Class: Wizard That seems perfect to me. This way, their racial abilities benifit any class. The race could pull off being any non-melee oriented character now, I think. Skill-monkeys such as rogues would benifit a lot form the extra skill points and utility spells. They can even make okay archers. The Spellcraft bonus wouldn't be applicable to non-casting classes without ranks by RAW, and I forgot to consider that. (houserule that a racial bonus counts as ranks, and the setting I plan to use them in has a little deal w/ permanent skills lists.) I must mull this over. I will make a few more tweaks by tomorrow. Any other advice? I know the crunch needs work, but what about the fluff?
3point14159rate 05-01-07, 11:34 PM	Sorry, I'm not a fluff guy, but I might be able to help you a little bit with the crunch. Before I start: Crimson_Concerto: No offense intended, but I feel that your version is SEVERLY underpowered. Small, Slow, -2 overall stats, for what? +2 save vs. enchantment and some 0th level spells, and Lowlight Vision? All right, for crunchiness, I'll do some comparisons, using the OP's most recent version of the race. I'll be comparing the two small PHB races to Cere Cere vs. Halfling Stats: Equivalent mathematically, and I'd say equivalent in which stats are chosen. -CON sucks for EVERYBODY, especially for d4 classes, which is what the Cere seems to be geared for. More than makes up for +2 INT IMHO. Size: Same, obviously Speed: Same Skills: Cere - Spellcraft / Halfling - Listen, Climb, Jump, Move Silently Advantage: Halfling Saves: Cere - 1 vs. Ench / Halfling - 2 vs. Fear and 1 to all saves Advantage: Halfling Attacks: Cere - None / Halfling - 1 to thrown and slings Advanatage: Halfling Vision: Cere - Lowlight / Halfling - Normal Advantage: Cere SLA: Cere - Up to 5 starting 0th level spells / Halfling - None Advantage: Cere Assessment: Seems that the Halfling has some significant advantages: Over the Cere, they have +6 Skills, +1 to all saves except Ench, +3 vs fear saves, +1 to some attacks. In exchange, the Cere get some 0th level spells and lowlight. If we assume that the 0ths are worth a feat, as is the lowlight, then the Cere is still down 1-2 feats to the halfling. Cere vs. Gnome Stats: Equivalent, IMHO, though I'd go with gnome 90% of the time. +1 HP/level almost always better than -1 HP/level. Size: Same Speed: Same Skills: Cere - Spellcraft / Gnome - Craft(alchemy) and Listen Advantage: Gnome Saves: Cere - 2 vs. Ench / Gnome 2 vs. Illusion Mathematically similar, perhaps a small advantage to Cere, but I'll call it equal Attacks: Cere - None / Gnome - Weapon Familiarity: Hooked Hammer, +1vs Kobolds and Goblinoids Advantage: Gnome Defense: Cere - None / Gnomes - 4 AC vs. giants Advantage: Gnome Vision: Same SLA: Cere - Up to 5 starting 0th's / Gnome - Up to 1 1st (With limitations) and 3 0ths. Advantage: Difficult to say, but I'm going to say they are equivalent Assessment: The Gnome has a slight advantage, mostly because the Cere doesn't outshine them anywhere, except perhaps the stats for an int based class. Its harder to say how many feats the Cere is down to the gnome, but I'd say at least 1. Fixin' stuff (YMMV): It seems to me that the Cere needs at least 1 feat worth of improvement, possibly two. Here's some suggestions from me, based on your fluffystuff: Solutions worth approx. one feat or less: - +2 to a couple of skills Appraise (Cere seem to be good at merchant stuff) Concentration (To offset the Con penalty for a Caster-focused race) Craft (Craftsy Hobbitses) Diplomacy (Very useful for city-based race) Knowledge: Whatever (Should be obvious) Profession: (Take jobs from other races) - Speak Language as a class skill / some free language slots (useful in cities) - Replace the 0th level spells with one of the "Adept" feats that grants 3 0ths and a 1st. - Give the Cere the ability to Detect Magic X times per day / Identify X times per day (You noted that they have innate detection abilities) - Allow the Cere to calculate 1st level HP using INT bonus instead of CON - +1 spell DC to one school of magic There are tons of other 1 feat-ish abilities, but these are the ones that sprang to mind when from your description. Solutoins worth approx. 2 feats: - More skill bonuses, though this could get silly fast - Grant the Cere a number of "Adept" feats based on their Int score (perhaps 1 per 2 pts of int bonus?) - More Detection/Identification abilities - Allow the Cere to use Int for some Con based things (HP, Will Saves, Concentration Checks, whatever, though be careful not to make Con worthless, or you negate your own -2 as a penalty) - +1 spell DC to all spells of a certain descriptor such as [good] or [fire] (Not my idea, I saw someone suggest it, thought it was awesome) - +1 Caster level to certain spells - Crafting bonuses for creating magic items (Gives some artificer synergy, since it seems like Cere would make decent artificers, and plays off their craftsyness/city theme) Again, there are tons of things you could add, but these seemed appropriate to your fluff I hope this helps, and remember, stay true to your concept. Don't let us - the unwashed masses - change what you want. The only people who the balance of your race should matter to are you and your group. If you like it, and your group likes it, its cool. -3.14159rate
Saberus 05-01-07, 11:35 PM	I'm going to keep the Spellcraft bonus for now, and nerf the DC bonus. (Gnomes have their Craft:Alchemy bonus, even if they're not a caster.) Cere Racial Traits +2 Int, +2 Wis, -2 Con, -2 Cha: Cere crave information, but their emaciated frames are sometimes a liability. Their distant nature also makes it difficult to interact with others. Small: As a Small creature, a Cere gains a +1 size bonus to AC, a +1 size bonus to Attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus to Hide checks, but use smaller weapons. Lifting and carrying limits are 3/4 those of Medium creatures. Cere base land speed is 20 feet. +2 racial bonus on Spellcraft checks. +2 to saves vs. Enchantments. +1 to DC of spells of one school, chosen at character creation. Spell-like abilities: At creation, a Cere character may choose a number of spells up to his intelligence modifier. These must be 0-level Wizard spells, and cannot be changed once set. These spells may be cast once a day. Caster level 1st; save DC(if applicable) is 10+Int modifier+spell level. Automatic Languages: Cere and Common. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Halfling, Draconic Favored Class: Wizard Does it help?
Crimson_Concerto 05-01-07, 11:44 PM	Before I start: Crimson_Concerto: No offense intended, but I feel that your version is SEVERLY underpowered. Small, Slow, -2 overall stats, for what? +2 save vs. enchantment and some 0th level spells, and Lowlight Vision?I can definitely see where you're coming from, but my major concern was whether or not we should take into account that the Cere get bonus skill points a la human in addition to all this. INT is aarguably a very powerful stat because of this. However, like you said, I can see where you're coming from, and if you dont' agree, I could definitely see the race getting a bonus to one or two skills. Saberus, I think the WIS bonus is now taking it too far, and the CHA penalty is pushing it. Also, what happened to the STR penalty that all small races get (it's just as appropriate here as with Halflings or Gnomes)? Make up your mind on what you want the Cere to be like. :rofl: And on the subject of Spellcraft vs Alchemy, Craft skills can all be used untrained without any ranks, so... yeah, I personally think that kinda makes a difference.
3point14159rate 05-01-07, 11:54 PM	I, for one, am a fan of the new build. I think I would change -cha to -str. The +wis decreases the degree to which the race is pigeonholed into arcane caster. I think they would represent a good choice for many types of casters, but I certainly wouldn't choose them for all casters.
Saberus 05-02-07, 03:00 AM	I hope this helps, and remember, stay true to your concept. Don't let us - the unwashed masses - change what you want. The only people who the balance of your race should matter to are you and your group. If you like it, and your group likes it, its cool. -3.14159rate I totally did not see this post when I updated, and brings up a point. I ran this across some of my group (the ones with the best grasp of the rules) and they liked it, the goal of posting here is to get a general concensus(sp?) on the balance. I'm tweaking to draw the original concept closer to balance. Your right, I should run the Cere (and the half-troll) through a few test sessions to check. I'll test it as is, and post my refined stats later. Maybe I should have done that first...:rolleye2: Otherwise, thanks to you all for giving me your earnest opinions. I see so many threads turn into jabs at the OP. I'm glad you gave me the chance to present my ideas without getting set ablaze. :hides: at least not right away, I think I may be asking for it by admitting I didn't test first.