My very first question: is half-divining fair? [Archive] - Wizards Community

My very first question: is half-divining fair? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Jamesruglia21
08-05-07, 07:00 PM Well, this is my first post here, I didn't see anywhere that I'd have guessed would have an introductory topic or anything, so hello I guess.

As much as I love DnD, I've.. Never actually played >.> Most people I know aren't up for learning how, so I've just been studying rules and looking at other statistics and stuff.

I have a lot of questions I'll probably ask about races and classes-I've made a couple but I really don't have a solid grasp of game balance outside the simple guidelines and common sense present in the Core Rulebooks.

But my question for now is for turning PCs into half-Celestials, half-Fiends, and half-Dragons. The thing that initially got me into DnD was the PC game Baldur's Gate, and one of the things I liked about the games' story was...

... Should I mark for spoilers? Oh well just in case.

Here it goes.

... That the main PC character was who he was-a half god. They could take their father's position, they could take a a more good-aligned path, they could even denounce their godhood in the end to remain on the material plane. Nevertheless, you had interesting perks-besides story significance, you had extra abilities and could turn into the Slayer and so forth.

In the monster manual, it lists "templates" for having intelligent creatures be those things, and the idea caught my attention as a potentially interesting side-quest possibility.

But of course, such a thing would make that character significantly more powerful, which is measured in their "effective level" increasing(+4 for Celestial and Fiend, +3 for Dragons?), is that right? So if the quest involved sacrificing that many levels, would it make it a fair trade-off? Or is it better to just leave it out?

And for the purpose of determining the abilities they get based on HD, I'm right to assume that since a character rolls their Lv1 HD at each level to determine their HP gain, that a PC's "HD" is effectively equal to their total class levels?
Thomar_of_Uointer
08-05-07, 08:43 PM Well, this is my first post here, I didn't see anywhere that I'd have guessed would have an introductory topic or anything, so hello I guess.

As much as I love DnD, I've.. Never actually played >.> Most people I know aren't up for learning how, so I've just been studying rules and looking at other statistics and stuff.

I have a lot of questions I'll probably ask about races and classes-I've made a couple but I really don't have a solid grasp of game balance outside the simple guidelines and common sense present in the Core Rulebooks.

But my question for now is for turning PCs into half-Celestials, half-Fiends, and half-Dragons. The thing that initially got me into DnD was the PC game Baldur's Gate, and one of the things I liked about the games' story was...

... Should I mark for spoilers? Oh well just in case.

Here it goes.

... That the main PC character was who he was-a half god. They could take their father's position, they could take a a more good-aligned path, they could even denounce their godhood in the end to remain on the material plane. Nevertheless, you had interesting perks-besides story significance, you had extra abilities and could turn into the Slayer and so forth.

In the monster manual, it lists "templates" for having intelligent creatures be those things, and the idea caught my attention as a potentially interesting side-quest possibility.

But of course, such a thing would make that character significantly more powerful, which is measured in their "effective level" increasing(+4 for Celestial and Fiend, +3 for Dragons?), is that right? So if the quest involved sacrificing that many levels, would it make it a fair trade-off? Or is it better to just leave it out?

And for the purpose of determining the abilities they get based on HD, I'm right to assume that since a character rolls their Lv1 HD at each level to determine their HP gain, that a PC's "HD" is effectively equal to their total class levels?

Handing out templates as story rewards only works if you make sure the whole party gets similarly powerful abilities. Many DMs have had very bad experiences with the lycanthrope template. Most things with LA are very powerful compared to most magic items, as they stay with the PC forever and are always active. You can go ahead and hand out minor artifacts to the party if that's your thing, just remember that they will be correspondingly more powerful.

Alternately, you can just inflict negative levels to keep a PC on par with the rest of the party. It's not pretty, though, the PC might not like getting class levels yanked out from under him, so you should discuss it with him beforehand. If you really think this is the only way to go, you can inflict the effects of negative levels (-1 to attack rolls, skill checks, and saving throws, -5 hp, and -1 effective level for level-based abilities like spellcasting for each negative level) and let him pay them off as he gains experience until he catches back up to his new ECL.

And yes, for most purposes class levels count as Hit Dice for templates, such as the half-celestial's spell-like ability progression.
Jamesruglia21
08-05-07, 09:09 PM Thank you very much for your information _(._,)_

Yeah, the idea was that all PCs in the campaign have the chance to do something like that(and at least close to the same time), and there'd be negative level penalties associated to keep the party balanced. It'd be something optional and made clear well ahead of time to the players.

I'm not quite clear on them all yet but as-of-now, when it comes to Lycanthrope, Undead forms, or anything that significantly alters a character's function like that, I'd rather stay away myself >< As far as I know, half-celestial/fiend/dragon mostly just adds attributes and abilities and aren't as complex as those.
Nakat
08-06-07, 10:42 AM Also, don't forget that another option would be having them gain the abilities over time in the form of a racial progression style. You can find plenty of examples of such in the races books and so on. Also, the bloodlines in Arcana Unearthed (on the SRD) might be just what you are looking for.
penchant
08-06-07, 05:17 PM If you are DM'ing then you need to know one thing that makes it much easier to customize and control your game. There is a difference between the fluff and mechanics of a feature. For instance, the Half Dragon is a racial template as opposed to an aquired template. That means a half dragon is born as he is from certain parentage. But the difference between the two is largely fluff, i.e. story details and you can drop the fluff for anything and replace it with whatever you like. You can make it an aquired template with an ancient ritual. You can even make more drastic changes. The half dragon mechanically gets some stats, a breath weapon, natural attacks, natural armor, and maybe wings depending on size. You can apply that mechanic to a magical cyborg, a half pheonix (fire type), a ice monster (cold type), or a dozen other ideas. Its still the same stats so you know its balanced and you don't have to guess that it will or won't work.

So, fluff swapping... if it works for chomatic ninjas then it works for you.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jamesruglia21 08-05-07, 07:00 PM	Well, this is my first post here, I didn't see anywhere that I'd have guessed would have an introductory topic or anything, so hello I guess. As much as I love DnD, I've.. Never actually played >.> Most people I know aren't up for learning how, so I've just been studying rules and looking at other statistics and stuff. I have a lot of questions I'll probably ask about races and classes-I've made a couple but I really don't have a solid grasp of game balance outside the simple guidelines and common sense present in the Core Rulebooks. But my question for now is for turning PCs into half-Celestials, half-Fiends, and half-Dragons. The thing that initially got me into DnD was the PC game Baldur's Gate, and one of the things I liked about the games' story was... ... Should I mark for spoilers? Oh well just in case. Here it goes. ... That the main PC character was who he was-a half god. They could take their father's position, they could take a a more good-aligned path, they could even denounce their godhood in the end to remain on the material plane. Nevertheless, you had interesting perks-besides story significance, you had extra abilities and could turn into the Slayer and so forth. In the monster manual, it lists "templates" for having intelligent creatures be those things, and the idea caught my attention as a potentially interesting side-quest possibility. But of course, such a thing would make that character significantly more powerful, which is measured in their "effective level" increasing(+4 for Celestial and Fiend, +3 for Dragons?), is that right? So if the quest involved sacrificing that many levels, would it make it a fair trade-off? Or is it better to just leave it out? And for the purpose of determining the abilities they get based on HD, I'm right to assume that since a character rolls their Lv1 HD at each level to determine their HP gain, that a PC's "HD" is effectively equal to their total class levels?
Thomar_of_Uointer 08-05-07, 08:43 PM	Well, this is my first post here, I didn't see anywhere that I'd have guessed would have an introductory topic or anything, so hello I guess. As much as I love DnD, I've.. Never actually played >.> Most people I know aren't up for learning how, so I've just been studying rules and looking at other statistics and stuff. I have a lot of questions I'll probably ask about races and classes-I've made a couple but I really don't have a solid grasp of game balance outside the simple guidelines and common sense present in the Core Rulebooks. But my question for now is for turning PCs into half-Celestials, half-Fiends, and half-Dragons. The thing that initially got me into DnD was the PC game Baldur's Gate, and one of the things I liked about the games' story was... ... Should I mark for spoilers? Oh well just in case. Here it goes. ... That the main PC character was who he was-a half god. They could take their father's position, they could take a a more good-aligned path, they could even denounce their godhood in the end to remain on the material plane. Nevertheless, you had interesting perks-besides story significance, you had extra abilities and could turn into the Slayer and so forth. In the monster manual, it lists "templates" for having intelligent creatures be those things, and the idea caught my attention as a potentially interesting side-quest possibility. But of course, such a thing would make that character significantly more powerful, which is measured in their "effective level" increasing(+4 for Celestial and Fiend, +3 for Dragons?), is that right? So if the quest involved sacrificing that many levels, would it make it a fair trade-off? Or is it better to just leave it out? And for the purpose of determining the abilities they get based on HD, I'm right to assume that since a character rolls their Lv1 HD at each level to determine their HP gain, that a PC's "HD" is effectively equal to their total class levels? Handing out templates as story rewards only works if you make sure the whole party gets similarly powerful abilities. Many DMs have had very bad experiences with the lycanthrope template. Most things with LA are very powerful compared to most magic items, as they stay with the PC forever and are always active. You can go ahead and hand out minor artifacts to the party if that's your thing, just remember that they will be correspondingly more powerful. Alternately, you can just inflict negative levels to keep a PC on par with the rest of the party. It's not pretty, though, the PC might not like getting class levels yanked out from under him, so you should discuss it with him beforehand. If you really think this is the only way to go, you can inflict the effects of negative levels (-1 to attack rolls, skill checks, and saving throws, -5 hp, and -1 effective level for level-based abilities like spellcasting for each negative level) and let him pay them off as he gains experience until he catches back up to his new ECL. And yes, for most purposes class levels count as Hit Dice for templates, such as the half-celestial's spell-like ability progression.
Jamesruglia21 08-05-07, 09:09 PM	Thank you very much for your information _(._,)_ Yeah, the idea was that all PCs in the campaign have the chance to do something like that(and at least close to the same time), and there'd be negative level penalties associated to keep the party balanced. It'd be something optional and made clear well ahead of time to the players. I'm not quite clear on them all yet but as-of-now, when it comes to Lycanthrope, Undead forms, or anything that significantly alters a character's function like that, I'd rather stay away myself >< As far as I know, half-celestial/fiend/dragon mostly just adds attributes and abilities and aren't as complex as those.
Nakat 08-06-07, 10:42 AM	Also, don't forget that another option would be having them gain the abilities over time in the form of a racial progression style. You can find plenty of examples of such in the races books and so on. Also, the bloodlines in Arcana Unearthed (on the SRD) might be just what you are looking for.
penchant 08-06-07, 05:17 PM	If you are DM'ing then you need to know one thing that makes it much easier to customize and control your game. There is a difference between the fluff and mechanics of a feature. For instance, the Half Dragon is a racial template as opposed to an aquired template. That means a half dragon is born as he is from certain parentage. But the difference between the two is largely fluff, i.e. story details and you can drop the fluff for anything and replace it with whatever you like. You can make it an aquired template with an ancient ritual. You can even make more drastic changes. The half dragon mechanically gets some stats, a breath weapon, natural attacks, natural armor, and maybe wings depending on size. You can apply that mechanic to a magical cyborg, a half pheonix (fire type), a ice monster (cold type), or a dozen other ideas. Its still the same stats so you know its balanced and you don't have to guess that it will or won't work. So, fluff swapping... if it works for chomatic ninjas then it works for you.