Native Outsiders [Archive] - Wizards Community

Native Outsiders [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Jachra
03-15-07, 02:38 AM Okay, so, looking over the abilities...

Some I don't see voided by being a Native are the proficiencies for simple and martial weapons.

Would a Tiefling, then, be proficient in all simple and martial weapons regardless of class?

I think not, but I like to check.
Perun
03-15-07, 03:05 AM Okay, so, looking over the abilities...

Some I don't see voided by being a Native are the proficiencies for simple and martial weapons.

Would a Tiefling, then, be proficient in all simple and martial weapons regardless of class?

I think not, but I like to check.

While I'm not terribly on favour of giving them free Martial weapon proficiencies (since, as you said, it's not mentioned in their respective racial write-ups), I believe either WotC Customer Service or the FAQ (i.e. the Sage) ruled they actually get them.

Regards.
Jachra
03-15-07, 03:26 AM Interesting.
Anyone got the exact link?
Perun
03-15-07, 03:49 AM Found it!

It's from the Ask Wizards (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/ask) feature on the WotC site, the relevant question is located here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20060731a), and here's the quote:Q: Do Aasimars and Tieflings (having the outsider type but no racial HD) gain proficiency with all martial weapons?
--Lukas

A: Yes, based on the traits listed for outsiders in the Monster Manual (page 313), they most certainly would be proficient in all simple and martial weapons.
--Chris Lindsay
Regards.
ff6shadow
03-15-07, 03:58 AM Same idea as Goliath's getting Darkvision and proficiency with all simple weapons. Its not listed in their racial write up, but it is listed in the Monstrous Humanoid type.
Naderion
03-15-07, 07:58 AM The type definitons only say what abilities creatures of these types usually have, not that all of them always have them all.
Beckett
03-15-07, 08:05 AM But as members of that type, they always recieve certain things unless otherwise stated. Goliaths on the other hand, where a mistake in that it did not mention that they do not recieve darkvision regardless of their type.
runestar
03-15-07, 08:13 AM Considering that the elan race entry has to explicitly state that they do not receive darkvision despite being abberations, I think we can safely conclude that tieflings do get martial proficiency, even if it is not mentioned in their entry, since they are undeniably outsiders, and would thus benefit from all outsider traits.:)
Zumarai
03-15-07, 08:20 AM So this means an Aasimar etc could enter into the Eldritch Knight PrC class with nothing but Wizard levels…nice.
runestar
03-15-07, 08:24 AM So this means an Aasimar etc could enter into the Eldritch Knight PrC class with nothing but Wizard levels…nice.
Or you could just play a LA+0 race and take a lv of fighter...;)Which also paves the way for 1 lv of spellsword...
Perun
03-15-07, 08:30 AM So this means an Aasimar etc could enter into the Eldritch Knight PrC class with nothing but Wizard levels…nice.

Or you could just play a LA+0 race and take a lv of fighter...;)Which also paves the way for 1 lv of spellsword...

Or you could just play a LA+0 race and take the Militia regional feat (from Player's Guide to Faerūn, provided, of course you actually play in FR :D)
runestar
03-15-07, 09:48 AM Or alternatively play a LA+0 race, and use the celestial-attended birth option from champions of valour to qualify for the otherworldly regional feat, which makes you a native outsider, thus granting free martial weapon prof, amongst other benefits...:D
Jachra
03-15-07, 06:54 PM Or you could submit an LA +0 version of a Tiefling for approval, since LA is like stabbing yourself in the face, twice for each LA.
Perun
03-16-07, 02:37 AM Or you could submit an LA +0 version of a Tiefling for approval, since LA is like stabbing yourself in the face, twice for each LA.

Not, if you're using the LA buy-off (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) rules from Unearthed Arcana and SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm). My group has used them extensively (with LA+1 races) since UA was released, and we had no problems whatsoever.

AS for the LA+0 tieflings, the official version is in the Player's Guide to Faerūn, although those aren't very balanced (as much as I dislike the term). A couple of members of these boards made their own LA+0 versions (AZNsupermarket (http://boards1.wizards.com/member.php?u=455229), for example; the link is in his signature, just click on the "lesser" planetouched fix).

Regards.
Jachra
03-16-07, 08:03 PM Interesting, I'll check those out. I'll pick up Unearthed Arcana.
Kadasbrass
03-17-07, 12:06 AM Ask Wizards does stat they get the weapon profs, but some of the designers (such as Richard Baker) disagree with this and that the clause in the MM that stats humanoids without hit dice have no weapon profs due to type without class levels should be treated as if it didn't limit it to humanoids only.

http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9996856&postcount=2168
HawkTheOne-Handed
03-18-07, 12:46 AM Has to do with the Blood War I beleive. So half-fiends, tieflings, half-celestials and aasimar get them. Not a game breaking rule but I can see it becoming a nuisance if you are dming/playing with a munchkin.

As a side question, do aasimar and tieflings have to resemble humans? I can't see any genuine reason why they couldn't resemble an anscestor if it was any other race but human. I.e. why would an aasimar whose father was a half celestial dwarf look like a celestial/planetouched human?
runestar
03-18-07, 12:54 AM Because there is no such thing as an assimar dwarf.
The planetouched such as assimar and tiefling assume that you have a human parent.

A dwarf with just a dash of outsider blood in him might mimic an assimar, but he is not considered a true assimar in game terms. They would be classified under something else.
pukunui
03-18-07, 01:08 AM As a side question, do aasimar and tieflings have to resemble humans?Because the planetouched entry specifically states that they are human with a dash of extraplanar blood (celestial for aasimar, fiendish for tiefling, elemental for genasi, etc).

This is actually why I prefer the lesser planetouched variant if for no other reason than it actually makes them humans rather than outsiders (by changing their type to humanoid [planetouched] instead of outsider [native]). I'm not convinced the "lesser" versions don't still deserve an LA+1, but having the type be humanoid just makes more sense to me.
HawkTheOne-Handed
03-18-07, 02:13 AM You people have me wondering what the stats for the aasimar version of a dwarf would be. Anyone care to take a stab at making one? i'd probably play one if it was interesting enough.
Jachra
03-18-07, 02:19 AM It actually makes sense in a way if you assume either A) their upbringing was in such a place as made it necessary or B) its an innate skill in their blood.
Or both.
Perun
03-18-07, 02:37 AM You people have me wondering what the stats for the aasimar version of a dwarf would be. Anyone care to take a stab at making one? i'd probably play one if it was interesting enough.

As a guideline, you could look at the maeluth (MM2 -- or was it FF?), a dwarf with a devil ancestry, or azerblood (from Dragon 350), a dwarf with azer ancestry. Both are LA +1, of course.

If I had to make one, here's how I might do it:
+2 Con
Native outsider
Medium
Speed 20 ft., even in medium or heavy armour or carrying a medium or heavy load
Darkvision 60 ft.
Dwarf Traits: save bonuses vs. spells and spell-like abilities and poison, attack bonus vs. goblinoids, dodge AC bonus vs. giants
A minor, 1/day ability, examples might include:
Smite (Ex): 1/day, add Charisma modifier to attack, HD to damage
Blessing of Mt. Celestia (Su): Make weapon holy, 1/day, for 1 round per level
True Strike (Sp): as per spell, 1/day
Fire, cold, and electricity resistance 5
Automatic Languages: Dwarven. Bonus Languages: Celestial, Giant, Gnome, Goblin, Terran.
Favoured Class: Paladin
LA +1
HawkTheOne-Handed
03-18-07, 12:02 PM Looks interesting enough to play. I'll see if the dm will allow it the next time he starts a new campaign or if I die.
Shemeska the Marauder
03-20-07, 09:14 PM Because there is no such thing as an assimar dwarf.
The planetouched such as assimar and tiefling assume that you have a human parent.

Which is entirely a 3.x conceit, and a poorly researched and worded one. Historically the various planetouched are not just a human thing, and many of them are late generation planetouched and so have no idea what mortal stock they even contain in their blood. Humans have more tendency perhaps to mingle with various outsiders and produce planetouched offspring, but by no means is there a need for a seperate planetouched race of every single mortal race out there.
Polaris
03-21-07, 12:22 AM Everyone,

Rules as written (and as confirmed by wizards) not only do Planetouched get martial weapon proficiency, but any character that gains the Outsider type also gets them as well, specifically 20th level Monks, 10th level Contemplatives, characters with the Otherworldly Feat (Player's Guide to Faerun), etc.

-Polaris
Jachra
03-21-07, 01:46 AM Not like a 20th level monk would ever need one. ;D

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jachra 03-15-07, 02:38 AM	Okay, so, looking over the abilities... Some I don't see voided by being a Native are the proficiencies for simple and martial weapons. Would a Tiefling, then, be proficient in all simple and martial weapons regardless of class? I think not, but I like to check.
Perun 03-15-07, 03:05 AM	Okay, so, looking over the abilities... Some I don't see voided by being a Native are the proficiencies for simple and martial weapons. Would a Tiefling, then, be proficient in all simple and martial weapons regardless of class? I think not, but I like to check. While I'm not terribly on favour of giving them free Martial weapon proficiencies (since, as you said, it's not mentioned in their respective racial write-ups), I believe either WotC Customer Service or the FAQ (i.e. the Sage) ruled they actually get them. Regards.
Jachra 03-15-07, 03:26 AM	Interesting. Anyone got the exact link?
Perun 03-15-07, 03:49 AM	Found it! It's from the Ask Wizards (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/ask) feature on the WotC site, the relevant question is located here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20060731a), and here's the quote:Q: Do Aasimars and Tieflings (having the outsider type but no racial HD) gain proficiency with all martial weapons? --Lukas A: Yes, based on the traits listed for outsiders in the Monster Manual (page 313), they most certainly would be proficient in all simple and martial weapons. --Chris Lindsay Regards.
ff6shadow 03-15-07, 03:58 AM	Same idea as Goliath's getting Darkvision and proficiency with all simple weapons. Its not listed in their racial write up, but it is listed in the Monstrous Humanoid type.
Naderion 03-15-07, 07:58 AM	The type definitons only say what abilities creatures of these types usually have, not that all of them always have them all.
Beckett 03-15-07, 08:05 AM	But as members of that type, they always recieve certain things unless otherwise stated. Goliaths on the other hand, where a mistake in that it did not mention that they do not recieve darkvision regardless of their type.
runestar 03-15-07, 08:13 AM	Considering that the elan race entry has to explicitly state that they do not receive darkvision despite being abberations, I think we can safely conclude that tieflings do get martial proficiency, even if it is not mentioned in their entry, since they are undeniably outsiders, and would thus benefit from all outsider traits.:)
Zumarai 03-15-07, 08:20 AM	So this means an Aasimar etc could enter into the Eldritch Knight PrC class with nothing but Wizard levels…nice.
runestar 03-15-07, 08:24 AM	So this means an Aasimar etc could enter into the Eldritch Knight PrC class with nothing but Wizard levels…nice. Or you could just play a LA+0 race and take a lv of fighter...;)Which also paves the way for 1 lv of spellsword...
Perun 03-15-07, 08:30 AM	So this means an Aasimar etc could enter into the Eldritch Knight PrC class with nothing but Wizard levels…nice. Or you could just play a LA+0 race and take a lv of fighter...;)Which also paves the way for 1 lv of spellsword... Or you could just play a LA+0 race and take the Militia regional feat (from Player's Guide to Faerūn, provided, of course you actually play in FR :D)
runestar 03-15-07, 09:48 AM	Or alternatively play a LA+0 race, and use the celestial-attended birth option from champions of valour to qualify for the otherworldly regional feat, which makes you a native outsider, thus granting free martial weapon prof, amongst other benefits...:D
Jachra 03-15-07, 06:54 PM	Or you could submit an LA +0 version of a Tiefling for approval, since LA is like stabbing yourself in the face, twice for each LA.
Perun 03-16-07, 02:37 AM	Or you could submit an LA +0 version of a Tiefling for approval, since LA is like stabbing yourself in the face, twice for each LA. Not, if you're using the LA buy-off (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) rules from Unearthed Arcana and SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm). My group has used them extensively (with LA+1 races) since UA was released, and we had no problems whatsoever. AS for the LA+0 tieflings, the official version is in the Player's Guide to Faerūn, although those aren't very balanced (as much as I dislike the term). A couple of members of these boards made their own LA+0 versions (AZNsupermarket (http://boards1.wizards.com/member.php?u=455229), for example; the link is in his signature, just click on the "lesser" planetouched fix). Regards.
Jachra 03-16-07, 08:03 PM	Interesting, I'll check those out. I'll pick up Unearthed Arcana.
Kadasbrass 03-17-07, 12:06 AM	Ask Wizards does stat they get the weapon profs, but some of the designers (such as Richard Baker) disagree with this and that the clause in the MM that stats humanoids without hit dice have no weapon profs due to type without class levels should be treated as if it didn't limit it to humanoids only. http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9996856&postcount=2168
HawkTheOne-Handed 03-18-07, 12:46 AM	Has to do with the Blood War I beleive. So half-fiends, tieflings, half-celestials and aasimar get them. Not a game breaking rule but I can see it becoming a nuisance if you are dming/playing with a munchkin. As a side question, do aasimar and tieflings have to resemble humans? I can't see any genuine reason why they couldn't resemble an anscestor if it was any other race but human. I.e. why would an aasimar whose father was a half celestial dwarf look like a celestial/planetouched human?
runestar 03-18-07, 12:54 AM	Because there is no such thing as an assimar dwarf. The planetouched such as assimar and tiefling assume that you have a human parent. A dwarf with just a dash of outsider blood in him might mimic an assimar, but he is not considered a true assimar in game terms. They would be classified under something else.
pukunui 03-18-07, 01:08 AM	As a side question, do aasimar and tieflings have to resemble humans?Because the planetouched entry specifically states that they are human with a dash of extraplanar blood (celestial for aasimar, fiendish for tiefling, elemental for genasi, etc). This is actually why I prefer the lesser planetouched variant if for no other reason than it actually makes them humans rather than outsiders (by changing their type to humanoid [planetouched] instead of outsider [native]). I'm not convinced the "lesser" versions don't still deserve an LA+1, but having the type be humanoid just makes more sense to me.
HawkTheOne-Handed 03-18-07, 02:13 AM	You people have me wondering what the stats for the aasimar version of a dwarf would be. Anyone care to take a stab at making one? i'd probably play one if it was interesting enough.
Jachra 03-18-07, 02:19 AM	It actually makes sense in a way if you assume either A) their upbringing was in such a place as made it necessary or B) its an innate skill in their blood. Or both.
Perun 03-18-07, 02:37 AM	You people have me wondering what the stats for the aasimar version of a dwarf would be. Anyone care to take a stab at making one? i'd probably play one if it was interesting enough. As a guideline, you could look at the maeluth (MM2 -- or was it FF?), a dwarf with a devil ancestry, or azerblood (from Dragon 350), a dwarf with azer ancestry. Both are LA +1, of course. If I had to make one, here's how I might do it: +2 Con Native outsider Medium Speed 20 ft., even in medium or heavy armour or carrying a medium or heavy load Darkvision 60 ft. Dwarf Traits: save bonuses vs. spells and spell-like abilities and poison, attack bonus vs. goblinoids, dodge AC bonus vs. giants A minor, 1/day ability, examples might include: Smite (Ex): 1/day, add Charisma modifier to attack, HD to damage Blessing of Mt. Celestia (Su): Make weapon holy, 1/day, for 1 round per level True Strike (Sp): as per spell, 1/day Fire, cold, and electricity resistance 5 Automatic Languages: Dwarven. Bonus Languages: Celestial, Giant, Gnome, Goblin, Terran. Favoured Class: Paladin LA +1
HawkTheOne-Handed 03-18-07, 12:02 PM	Looks interesting enough to play. I'll see if the dm will allow it the next time he starts a new campaign or if I die.
Shemeska the Marauder 03-20-07, 09:14 PM	Because there is no such thing as an assimar dwarf. The planetouched such as assimar and tiefling assume that you have a human parent. Which is entirely a 3.x conceit, and a poorly researched and worded one. Historically the various planetouched are not just a human thing, and many of them are late generation planetouched and so have no idea what mortal stock they even contain in their blood. Humans have more tendency perhaps to mingle with various outsiders and produce planetouched offspring, but by no means is there a need for a seperate planetouched race of every single mortal race out there.
Polaris 03-21-07, 12:22 AM	Everyone, Rules as written (and as confirmed by wizards) not only do Planetouched get martial weapon proficiency, but any character that gains the Outsider type also gets them as well, specifically 20th level Monks, 10th level Contemplatives, characters with the Otherworldly Feat (Player's Guide to Faerun), etc. -Polaris
Jachra 03-21-07, 01:46 AM	Not like a 20th level monk would ever need one. ;D