Necropolitain HD [Archive] - Wizards Community

Necropolitain HD [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Rustmonster
09-04-07, 03:21 PM I understand that when you become Necropolitain, you convert your HD to d12. But when you gain a level after that, do you also get d12 HD instead of the standard?

Example: A necropolitain wizard levels up, does he get a d4, or a d12?
malykoth
09-04-07, 03:26 PM He's an undead, so he get's d12..
Einvaldurinn_mikli
09-04-07, 03:36 PM D12.
JellyPooga
09-04-07, 05:09 PM His future HD are based on his class...d12 HD is a Feature of the Undead type, not a Trait. The Necropolitan template specifies that all current HD are upgraded to d12, but does not mention future HD. Under 'Advancement' (for the template), it states "By character class"...hence, you use whatever HD the Class denotes (i.e. if he levels up as Wizard, he's stuck with d4's).
malykoth
09-04-07, 08:07 PM If you look at the Necropolitan example, you'd see that he is a 5th level wizard...with 5d12 hit dice...QED. I didn't see where it specifically stated "current only, not future" hit dice. Perhaps I missed it, though...could you point it out?
StevenO
09-04-07, 08:08 PM Roll d12 for hp.

If you look under the Lich and Vampire entries in the MM 3.5 both state that they change all current AND FUTURE HD to d12s. You may argue that is exclusive to those two undead types which often gain levels after becoming undead but please site an example where an undead doesn't have d12 HD.
Rustmonster
09-04-07, 08:10 PM If you look at the Necropolitan example, you'd see that he is a 5th level wizard...with 5d12 hit dice...QED.

What does QED mean?
Rustmonster
09-04-07, 08:13 PM Roll d12 for hp.

If you look under the Lich and Vampire entries in the MM 3.5 both state that they change all current AND FUTURE HD to d12s. You may argue that is exclusive to those two undead types which often gain levels after becoming undead but please site an example where an undead doesn't have d12 HD.

1) I can not site an example.

2) I would not argue this, as I was just asking a question. I really didn't know because they are very vague on the subject.
malykoth
09-04-07, 08:18 PM 1) I can not site an example.

2) I would not argue this, as I was just asking a question. I really didn't know because they are very vague on the subject.
Rustmonster, I do believe StevenO and myself were addressing JellyPooga directly, not you directly. ;)

Oh, and QED means Quite Easily Done...
Rustmonster
09-04-07, 08:25 PM Rustmonster, I do believe StevenO and myself were addressing JellyPooga directly, not you directly. ;)

Oh, and QED means Quite Easily Done...

Ah, I see. Thank you for that.

It seems the majority thinks it is d12 HD, and I'd have to say I agree. 0 CON + inability to raise CON + 2.5 average hp per level = suck.
StevenO
09-04-07, 08:30 PM My first sentence was to answer the question.

The second paragraph was to address the counter-arguement presented to the question's answer.

I also had little idea of QED means. Some times people seem to think this is chat room or instant messaging and forget some of us don't know all those super-abbreviated phrases. Generally it doesn't matter but there are enough abbreviations for DnD that using those not specific to the game can confuse things.
1 ton ghost
09-04-07, 08:47 PM i would be inclined to agree: flat rate d12/lvl for so many reasons

-no Con, rare but necessary FORT saves are scary to make
-no "Dying" HP buffer (-1 through -9HP); all Undead are "Destroyed" ie)final death @ 0 HP and you lost a lvl (+1LA) of HD to begin w/.
help hint: this may work to your advantage as a rogue or arcane type given d4 and d6 respectively (and Con isn't their strong suit to begin w/ at Character Generation). given avg. of 6HP (d12) and 2&3 HP as prior, even w/ the loss of the 9HP dying gap & LA, it's a shrewed gamble in the long run.
-no real means to easilly get bonus HP outside of magic and most rogue paths get jack $hit, save for Assassin and the like.
-you can always be turned...
-a goodly to nice but neutral cleric can touch you to death very easilly

and yada yada yada

major recommendation: whatever weapon you wield, try and get a Profane (Libris Mortis) adjustment on it. extra dmg. to any living target which is like every damn monster in the book(s), save for undead...and they get basically none of the their special abilities (the selling point on almost all of them) on you so it's a moot point anyway. plus, any living person that wields it (anyone but you basically), they take Con dmg straight away, so it's very secure as well.
StruckingFuggle
09-04-07, 08:51 PM What does QED mean?

And now, for the real answer. It's an abbreviation of the Latin phrase "quod erat demonstrandum" ... quoting wikipedia because it's one of those things I know but can't put into good words:

(literally, "which was to be demonstrated", and figuratively, "I rest my case"). The phrase is usually written in its abbreviated form at the end of mathematical proofs, to signify the completion of a previously asserted claim.

(...)

In modern times, it has become so symbolic of irrefutable logic that "Q.E.D." is occasionally used in non-mathematical contexts as well to intensify assertions; in this context it has little connection with rigorous deduction, however, and is more tongue-in-cheek.

However, I disagree with the wiki, as most of the time I see "QED" in a nonmathematically context it's being used seriously, rather than facetiously.
runestar
09-04-07, 09:20 PM Roll d12 for hp.

If you look under the Lich and Vampire entries in the MM 3.5 both state that they change all current AND FUTURE HD to d12s. You may argue that is exclusive to those two undead types which often gain levels after becoming undead but please site an example where an undead doesn't have d12 HD.

Look at the mummy lord entry in the MM and tell me what HD it uses for its cleric lvs.;)

This has also been clarified by the sage at the website, though I am unable to locate the article at the moment. For example, a ghoul with 1 lv of wizard rolls 2d12+1d4 for its hp, rather than 3d12.
Rustmonster
09-04-07, 09:24 PM Look at the mummy lord entry in the MM and tell me what HD it uses for its cleric lvs.;)

This has also been clarified by the sage at the website, though I am unable to locate the article at the moment. For example, a ghoul with 1 lv of wizard rolls 2d12+1d4 for its hp, rather than 3d12.

Oh, I'll have to look that up. Thanks!
TacoClone
09-04-07, 09:30 PM Just to reinforce what's been said and negate anything people might have said against D12, ALL undead, without exception, have a D12 for its hit dice no matter what. Once you become an undead all you HD are switched over to D12 (or dropped if class levels aren't carried over, such as with zombies, skeleton, and unintelligent undead).

EDIT: Er...I stand corrected. Perhaps I should read other people's posts before I open my big mouth. Sorry about that. The MM has proven me wrong with its Mummy example, even though this does make me not understand why. I apologize for me semi-obnoxious rant.
runestar
09-04-07, 09:54 PM To clarify things...

Some templates like lich and vampire explicitly state that all current and future HD are d12s. This is meant to represent an exception to the norm, which is why it has to be explicitly spelled out.

Likewise, nowhere does it state that undead creatures automatically convert HD from class lvs into d12s. The MM merely states that their racial HD are d12s, and that they have no con score, but that is pretty much it.
StevenO
09-04-07, 11:40 PM Look at the mummy lord entry in the MM and tell me what HD it uses for its cleric lvs.;)

This has also been clarified by the sage at the website, though I am unable to locate the article at the moment. For example, a ghoul with 1 lv of wizard rolls 2d12+1d4 for its hp, rather than 3d12.
So there are undead with class levels that use racial HD and class HD so my vampire and lich examples aren't entirely accurate. I could argue that the Mummy Lord is an undead monster with class levels just like a ghoul wizard would be so the extra class HD are just additions to its monstrous dice, but the Vampire, Lich, and our lowly Necropolitan don't have any non-class HD thus they all get the d12 treatment.

I think it is funny that the Mummy Lord gets racial and class HD but the Mummified Creature template in the Libris Mortis also has the "current and future HD" text as well. Perhaps that has to do with the augmented subtype that the mummified creature, vampire, and lich all have which is also true of the necropolitan. Reading the Necropolitan it says "Hit Dice: Increase to d12" which I would take should continue into the future as well.

Although being undead has its advantages I hope we could agree that the drawbacks make giving the Necropolitan all d12 hd a non-issue. It may provide an edge to rogues (+3hp) and arcanists (+4hp) but those classes may also be the ones most likely to "take advantage" of death door before reaching -10 hp. Of course if you don't give one the d12 that probably makes them less inclined to try an undead early or at all. The other thing that would bother me is what it does to Necropolitan society as one character waiting longer before undergoing the process being significantly stronger than one who had the rites as soon as possible; it makes differences were there shouldn't be any.

One thing I would require of anyone wanting to play a Necropolitan is that they either:
1) roll five ability scores so they can't just put the lowest of six into a vanishing CON.
2) Point Buy with a lower value to reflect buying only five scores.
3) Point Buy at least CON 10, or possibly require ending with CON 10 after mods.
4) Make a starting character who doesn't use the above actually have to play and survive a while with their low constitution.
Without these in place a Necropolitan (Elf) just gets a nice +2 Dex with nothing lost.
runestar
09-05-07, 04:29 AM I believe there is actually a barb build floating around which capitalizes on it having a con score of 8, to take advantage of the berserker strength variant (the goal is to have no more hp than its activation threshold at any one time, so it is effectively always on). Necropolitan was cited as a possible choice to ward against pesky power word spells.:P

Not exactly a "power-build", but might be fun to play.:D

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rustmonster 09-04-07, 03:21 PM	I understand that when you become Necropolitain, you convert your HD to d12. But when you gain a level after that, do you also get d12 HD instead of the standard? Example: A necropolitain wizard levels up, does he get a d4, or a d12?
malykoth 09-04-07, 03:26 PM	He's an undead, so he get's d12..
Einvaldurinn_mikli 09-04-07, 03:36 PM	D12.
JellyPooga 09-04-07, 05:09 PM	His future HD are based on his class...d12 HD is a Feature of the Undead type, not a Trait. The Necropolitan template specifies that all current HD are upgraded to d12, but does not mention future HD. Under 'Advancement' (for the template), it states "By character class"...hence, you use whatever HD the Class denotes (i.e. if he levels up as Wizard, he's stuck with d4's).
malykoth 09-04-07, 08:07 PM	If you look at the Necropolitan example, you'd see that he is a 5th level wizard...with 5d12 hit dice...QED. I didn't see where it specifically stated "current only, not future" hit dice. Perhaps I missed it, though...could you point it out?
StevenO 09-04-07, 08:08 PM	Roll d12 for hp. If you look under the Lich and Vampire entries in the MM 3.5 both state that they change all current AND FUTURE HD to d12s. You may argue that is exclusive to those two undead types which often gain levels after becoming undead but please site an example where an undead doesn't have d12 HD.
Rustmonster 09-04-07, 08:10 PM	If you look at the Necropolitan example, you'd see that he is a 5th level wizard...with 5d12 hit dice...QED. What does QED mean?
Rustmonster 09-04-07, 08:13 PM	Roll d12 for hp. If you look under the Lich and Vampire entries in the MM 3.5 both state that they change all current AND FUTURE HD to d12s. You may argue that is exclusive to those two undead types which often gain levels after becoming undead but please site an example where an undead doesn't have d12 HD. 1) I can not site an example. 2) I would not argue this, as I was just asking a question. I really didn't know because they are very vague on the subject.
malykoth 09-04-07, 08:18 PM	1) I can not site an example. 2) I would not argue this, as I was just asking a question. I really didn't know because they are very vague on the subject. Rustmonster, I do believe StevenO and myself were addressing JellyPooga directly, not you directly. ;) Oh, and QED means Quite Easily Done...
Rustmonster 09-04-07, 08:25 PM	Rustmonster, I do believe StevenO and myself were addressing JellyPooga directly, not you directly. ;) Oh, and QED means Quite Easily Done... Ah, I see. Thank you for that. It seems the majority thinks it is d12 HD, and I'd have to say I agree. 0 CON + inability to raise CON + 2.5 average hp per level = suck.
StevenO 09-04-07, 08:30 PM	My first sentence was to answer the question. The second paragraph was to address the counter-arguement presented to the question's answer. I also had little idea of QED means. Some times people seem to think this is chat room or instant messaging and forget some of us don't know all those super-abbreviated phrases. Generally it doesn't matter but there are enough abbreviations for DnD that using those not specific to the game can confuse things.
1 ton ghost 09-04-07, 08:47 PM	i would be inclined to agree: flat rate d12/lvl for so many reasons -no Con, rare but necessary FORT saves are scary to make -no "Dying" HP buffer (-1 through -9HP); all Undead are "Destroyed" ie)final death @ 0 HP and you lost a lvl (+1LA) of HD to begin w/. help hint: this may work to your advantage as a rogue or arcane type given d4 and d6 respectively (and Con isn't their strong suit to begin w/ at Character Generation). given avg. of 6HP (d12) and 2&3 HP as prior, even w/ the loss of the 9HP dying gap & LA, it's a shrewed gamble in the long run. -no real means to easilly get bonus HP outside of magic and most rogue paths get jack $hit, save for Assassin and the like. -you can always be turned... -a goodly to nice but neutral cleric can touch you to death very easilly and yada yada yada major recommendation: whatever weapon you wield, try and get a Profane (Libris Mortis) adjustment on it. extra dmg. to any living target which is like every damn monster in the book(s), save for undead...and they get basically none of the their special abilities (the selling point on almost all of them) on you so it's a moot point anyway. plus, any living person that wields it (anyone but you basically), they take Con dmg straight away, so it's very secure as well.
StruckingFuggle 09-04-07, 08:51 PM	What does QED mean? And now, for the real answer. It's an abbreviation of the Latin phrase "quod erat demonstrandum" ... quoting wikipedia because it's one of those things I know but can't put into good words: (literally, "which was to be demonstrated", and figuratively, "I rest my case"). The phrase is usually written in its abbreviated form at the end of mathematical proofs, to signify the completion of a previously asserted claim. (...) In modern times, it has become so symbolic of irrefutable logic that "Q.E.D." is occasionally used in non-mathematical contexts as well to intensify assertions; in this context it has little connection with rigorous deduction, however, and is more tongue-in-cheek. However, I disagree with the wiki, as most of the time I see "QED" in a nonmathematically context it's being used seriously, rather than facetiously.
runestar 09-04-07, 09:20 PM	Roll d12 for hp. If you look under the Lich and Vampire entries in the MM 3.5 both state that they change all current AND FUTURE HD to d12s. You may argue that is exclusive to those two undead types which often gain levels after becoming undead but please site an example where an undead doesn't have d12 HD. Look at the mummy lord entry in the MM and tell me what HD it uses for its cleric lvs.;) This has also been clarified by the sage at the website, though I am unable to locate the article at the moment. For example, a ghoul with 1 lv of wizard rolls 2d12+1d4 for its hp, rather than 3d12.
Rustmonster 09-04-07, 09:24 PM	Look at the mummy lord entry in the MM and tell me what HD it uses for its cleric lvs.;) This has also been clarified by the sage at the website, though I am unable to locate the article at the moment. For example, a ghoul with 1 lv of wizard rolls 2d12+1d4 for its hp, rather than 3d12. Oh, I'll have to look that up. Thanks!
TacoClone 09-04-07, 09:30 PM	Just to reinforce what's been said and negate anything people might have said against D12, ALL undead, without exception, have a D12 for its hit dice no matter what. Once you become an undead all you HD are switched over to D12 (or dropped if class levels aren't carried over, such as with zombies, skeleton, and unintelligent undead). EDIT: Er...I stand corrected. Perhaps I should read other people's posts before I open my big mouth. Sorry about that. The MM has proven me wrong with its Mummy example, even though this does make me not understand why. I apologize for me semi-obnoxious rant.
runestar 09-04-07, 09:54 PM	To clarify things... Some templates like lich and vampire explicitly state that all current and future HD are d12s. This is meant to represent an exception to the norm, which is why it has to be explicitly spelled out. Likewise, nowhere does it state that undead creatures automatically convert HD from class lvs into d12s. The MM merely states that their racial HD are d12s, and that they have no con score, but that is pretty much it.
StevenO 09-04-07, 11:40 PM	Look at the mummy lord entry in the MM and tell me what HD it uses for its cleric lvs.;) This has also been clarified by the sage at the website, though I am unable to locate the article at the moment. For example, a ghoul with 1 lv of wizard rolls 2d12+1d4 for its hp, rather than 3d12. So there are undead with class levels that use racial HD and class HD so my vampire and lich examples aren't entirely accurate. I could argue that the Mummy Lord is an undead monster with class levels just like a ghoul wizard would be so the extra class HD are just additions to its monstrous dice, but the Vampire, Lich, and our lowly Necropolitan don't have any non-class HD thus they all get the d12 treatment. I think it is funny that the Mummy Lord gets racial and class HD but the Mummified Creature template in the Libris Mortis also has the "current and future HD" text as well. Perhaps that has to do with the augmented subtype that the mummified creature, vampire, and lich all have which is also true of the necropolitan. Reading the Necropolitan it says "Hit Dice: Increase to d12" which I would take should continue into the future as well. Although being undead has its advantages I hope we could agree that the drawbacks make giving the Necropolitan all d12 hd a non-issue. It may provide an edge to rogues (+3hp) and arcanists (+4hp) but those classes may also be the ones most likely to "take advantage" of death door before reaching -10 hp. Of course if you don't give one the d12 that probably makes them less inclined to try an undead early or at all. The other thing that would bother me is what it does to Necropolitan society as one character waiting longer before undergoing the process being significantly stronger than one who had the rites as soon as possible; it makes differences were there shouldn't be any. One thing I would require of anyone wanting to play a Necropolitan is that they either: 1) roll five ability scores so they can't just put the lowest of six into a vanishing CON. 2) Point Buy with a lower value to reflect buying only five scores. 3) Point Buy at least CON 10, or possibly require ending with CON 10 after mods. 4) Make a starting character who doesn't use the above actually have to play and survive a while with their low constitution. Without these in place a Necropolitan (Elf) just gets a nice +2 Dex with nothing lost.
runestar 09-05-07, 04:29 AM	I believe there is actually a barb build floating around which capitalizes on it having a con score of 8, to take advantage of the berserker strength variant (the goal is to have no more hp than its activation threshold at any one time, so it is effectively always on). Necropolitan was cited as a possible choice to ward against pesky power word spells.:P Not exactly a "power-build", but might be fun to play.:D