Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Phase 05-07-07, 05:42 AM	What are the major advantages of going Necropolitan? No way to raise them that im aware of when they die, they possible lose out on HP, and they aquire the undead template (decent thing) I can see going spellstiched with it, and having the imbued spells would be a great thing, but Necropolitan alone doesnt seem worth it... But, for some reason, im almost drawn into doing it... Im currently DMing a game for my players and will end around level 5, leaving me to make a character when its over at level 5 or so, which is going to be a cleric hellbent on taking over the world with an undead army So, can someone tell me why its a good thing to do it? Or better yet, everything that can happen when a character decides to do it? Edit: Undead type: * No Constitution score. * Darkvision out to 60 feet. * Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects). * Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects. * Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects. * Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score, although it can be healed. Negative energy (such as an inflict spell) can heal undead creatures. The fast healing special quality works regardless of the creature’s Intelligence score. * Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless). * Uses its Charisma modifier for Concentration checks. * Not at risk of death from massive damage, but when reduced to 0 hit points or less, it is immediately destroyed. * Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead. * Proficient with its natural weapons, all simple weapons, and any weapons mentioned in its entry. * Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Undead not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Undead are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor. * Undead do not breathe, eat, or sleep. Necropolitan: <SNIP -- Please don't quote a big chunk of rules from outside the SRD -- WizO_the_Hutt> I guess the big downside, is not being able to come back if you die.. But IIRC there might be a spell to do it.. But if someone were Resurrection or true Res, id be human again. Downsides: If someone were Resurrection or true Res, id be human again Command Undead works against me, though I do gain a +2 against the save. But, it would just be as if someone were casting Dominate person really.. A cleric can turn/rebuke undead against me Id look rather funny, I can prolly get away with just saying im uber pale, and very very skinny, but it would be hard trying to get people to side with me on things during all RP with NPC's
Ebonyte 05-07-07, 09:57 AM	Actually, becoming undead does not necessarily mean never coming back after "death". Check out the spells in your Libris Mortis. There's a spell to raise an undead back.
runestar 05-07-07, 12:21 PM	You benefit from undead traits. D12s can be a boon, depending on what your former class was. And you get no con score, which can actually be a bonus if your earlier con score was low, or even lower than 10.
Majick 05-07-07, 12:48 PM	and as well... come on! undead! w00t! :cool:
JulesCARV 05-07-07, 12:51 PM	Well, if you're an evil cleric or dread necromancer, or you have a friend who is, you save a feat on Tomb-tainted soul.
StevenO 05-07-07, 03:11 PM	The big boons: Undead Traits - just look at all those immunities. Many spells that target you are available at low levels if they effect mortals. No Con - Definitely better than Con <10. d12 HD - An undead Wizard now has an effective Con 18 when figuring HP. You may have to worry about Turning and some specific spells but that isn't so bad. I would however put of becoming undead until you have a few levels. That d12 HD is nice but at low levels having that 10hp buffer do final death may allow you to survive even if an encounter goes poorly.
Yak of Darkness 05-07-07, 03:25 PM	You may have to worry about Turning and some specific spells but that isn't so bad. It's so bad. Any encounter with an NPC cleric is one you lose. It's pitifully easy for a Cr-equal-to-your-ECL cleric to get the turning/rebuking check to work, and even a lower level cleric can do it to you. Even if the rest of the party gets the job done, you won't be a part of it. And the moment you see someone brandishing a holy symbol that looks like the sun, you're just dead. No save, you die. If you mostly fight monsters, or the DM doesn't like enemy casters, the benefits of being undead might be nice. It's a hell of a risk, though, and for Necropolitan, you don't gain a lot of reward for your trouble, either.
DarkRhystar 05-07-07, 05:01 PM	It's so bad. Any encounter with an NPC cleric is one you lose. It's pitifully easy for a Cr-equal-to-your-ECL cleric to get the turning/rebuking check to work, and even a lower level cleric can do it to you. Even if the rest of the party gets the job done, you won't be a part of it. And the moment you see someone brandishing a holy symbol that looks like the sun, you're just dead. No save, you die. If you mostly fight monsters, or the DM doesn't like enemy casters, the benefits of being undead might be nice. It's a hell of a risk, though, and for Necropolitan, you don't gain a lot of reward for your trouble, either. Improved Turn Resistance. Libris Mortis. Page 27-28. Cloak of Turn Resistance. Libris Mortis. Page 78. Combined with the aforementioned +2 bonus, that totals +10 turn resistance. What does this mean? It means that the average enemy Cleric must be at least 6 levels higher than you to even have a chance of turning you. It's not so bad. A feat and 10,000 gp is a light investment compared to all the perks of being undead.
Yak of Darkness 05-07-07, 05:18 PM	It's not so bad. A feat and 10,000 gp is a light investment compared to all the perks of being undead. Eh, maybe for a better undead race, I can see going for that. Personally, I'd rather have the feat, the gold, and the item slot. ;)
Visigo7h 05-07-07, 05:48 PM	I am currently playing a Necropolitan in a game. It works well with Dread Necromancer (Heal yourself 1d8+lvl 1/round). The undead traits are really helpful that it allows one to be a good watchman at night. And the RP disadvantages are easily surpassed by disguise and bluff skills and hat of disguise. But like all good things there are disadvantages. The weakness to turning and healing spells. You can use the Turn resistance stuff (helpful when your have the money and feats to burn) and if you want and have to spend 36,000 gp you get A ring of Positive Protection (Magic Item Comp. pg 126) that makes you immune to positive energy spel
StruckingFuggle 05-07-07, 06:17 PM	It works well with Dread Necromancer (Heal yourself 1d8+lvl 1/round). Not quite, sadly. Take a very close look at the Charnel Touch ability. Also: Spellstitched. Dread Necromancer. Wizard (or Sorceror with some finnagling) + the 'Lord of the Uttercold' feat. Destructive Retribution, if you're a necromancer. These things can and do make being undead very, very nice / useful. And the immunities are nothing to sneeze at. You can, with minimalish investment, really cover up turning weakness, but it is a cost - on the other hand, in the light of it being an option, not paying that cost has the cost of losing out on all of those benefits. In short, really: it's not something you just do, generally. It's something you do for a reason, and those reasons can be compelling.
vardock 05-07-07, 06:28 PM	charnel touch according to RAW heals 1 point +1 point every few levels. According to every single other Positive/Negative energy effect in all of D&D, it should have an equal effect. It is probably a typo, such as later in the book about Greater Harm doing 1D12 damage per caster level, which makes it weaker than Harm.
StevenO 05-07-07, 06:37 PM	... Any encounter with an NPC cleric is one you lose. It's pitifully easy for a Cr-equal-to-your-ECL cleric to get the turning/rebuking check to work, and even a lower level cleric can do it to you. Even if the rest of the party gets the job done, you won't be a part of it. ... If you mostly fight monsters, or the DM doesn't like enemy casters, the benefits of being undead might be nice. It's a hell of a risk, though, and for Necropolitan, you don't gain a lot of reward for your trouble, either. Although becoming a Necropolitan is effectively LA +1 (you need to die after all) there is no LA for the race so the characters level = ECL. A cleric at the same level probably has about a 25% chance that the could turn you; even if they could turn you they still have to burn lower level undead first so keeping a few high HD undead as servants can go a long way. Of course most characters have a certain type of opponent a vindictive DM could throw at them to make life hard. A party full of rogues and spellcaster may care less about a cleric but that golem lumbering down the hall could be problematic. The Necropolitan may be the most balanced way for a player to play an undead character. I certainly don't recommend it for low level play but at higher levels it is powerful. Imagine a ECL 12 party of undead characters; in such a group the Necropolitan probably has the least to fear from turning because while others may have a larger turn resistance they'd also have a much larger LA so their HD would be lower and thus easier to turn.
StruckingFuggle 05-07-07, 06:54 PM	Although becoming a Necropolitan is effectively LA +1 (you need to die after all) Not true. You count as a level behind, not of your level, so by the rules (granted, DMs may ignore this, but that's hardly the issue of the thread, unless stated otherwise) you get more xp for being a level behind than you do for being on the same level as the others due to LA.
Phase 05-07-07, 09:58 PM	d12 HD - An undead Wizard now has an effective Con 18 when figuring HP. This is true, but what if the character doing the Necropolitan had corpse crafter? and if its an NPC.. how can I figure out the gp cost of saying he did? And yes, spell stitched is a must at higher levels... And also, is a hat of disguse a at will effect? It doesnt really say much about it, but I did think about getting one
runestar 05-07-07, 10:50 PM	Eh, maybe for a better undead race, I can see going for that. Personally, I'd rather have the feat, the gold, and the item slot. Let's see you use that to replicate undead traits....:P Which makes me wonder - what ways are there to dump con? A venerable elf with base con of 8 ends up with a con score of 1. Since con is inconsequential, what other ways are there of reducing this even further via penalties(since penalties can't go below 1?):D This reminds me of the dry lich prc, which has unholy toughness. Initiate of faerie mysteries adds int mod to hp in place of con. So a spellcaster with said feat and special ability has d12+int mod+cha mod for hp each round...
Visigo7h 05-09-07, 03:54 AM	Hat of Disguise is at will. Making it really handy when you are an undead. Also, an undead’s Con is not one, they count as having no con score. Also, with a cleric or other class able to rebuke, you set yourself to counter the turn attempts with a rebuke well your undead or allies do the fighting. Another nice class to look at is warlock for the invocation that allows you to mimic Raise Dead. But as such you would need to prep yourself with items to heal you.
JulesCARV 05-09-07, 12:23 PM	Well, you could take the flaw pathetic (constitution), if you're allowing flaws.
Pangeon 05-10-07, 12:59 AM	I once made an Evolved Undead Air Goblin Wizard / Incantatrix. (I do love me some metamagic abuse :D ) At ECL 13, he had a 33 AC (no buffs) and 91 HP. The sad thing is, if he was ever raised, he'd have 14 HP... (d12s and no Con sure do beat d4s and a 6 Con...)
Qube 05-10-07, 09:53 AM	its easy acces to the evolved undead template :D
EvilVegan 05-10-07, 11:03 AM	My wife plays a necropolitan dread necromancer. Yesterday, we encountered a higher level cleric, in a consecrated zone, with an altar. . . The DM was nice enough not to destroy her (for storyline reasons). But she was useless for the whole combat. Anyway, this was an auto-capture scenario. We were fighting on their terms and had no prep time and no rest since fighting 30 something warriors. In a normal scenario we wouldn't be so unprepared. Basically, I'm saying its a good template if you know your DM isn't going to destroy you every fight. Properly built you should worry about random encounters. It would be like worrying about your DM throwing in a wizard who focuses on save or dies. Every fight.
Kn1ves 05-13-07, 10:05 AM	Can a player start out as a level one Necropolitan, thereby negating the level loss, or does it have to be acquired in game? I don't have my Libris Mortis in front of me and can't look it up right now.
obrysii 05-13-07, 10:13 AM	Can a player start out as a level one Necropolitan, thereby negating the level loss, or does it have to be acquired in game? I don't have my Libris Mortis in front of me and can't look it up right now. Your DM may allow it for story reasons. I know that if you presented me with a very strong background story, I would seriously consider it ... despite being overpowered at level 1. But I'm more of a flavor guy myself (at least in the game ... books should be more crunch than flavor). The Hat of Disguise may not be sufficient to hide your undeadiness (since it only allows you to Change Self, which only allows your type ... ) ... although so long as you got a ... I forget the name. It allows corpses to not decompose for 1 day/caster level. So long as you got that every once in a while, it might not be apparent you are undead. Besides really cold hands. :P
DarkRhystar 05-13-07, 03:12 PM	The Hat of Disguise may not be sufficient to hide your undeadiness (since it only allows you to Change Self, which only allows your type ... ) ... although so long as you got a ... I forget the name. It allows corpses to not decompose for 1 day/caster level. So long as you got that every once in a while, it might not be apparent you are undead. Besides really cold hands. :P But then you're spending a 2nd or 3rd level spell slot for an effect not worth more than a 1st level slot.
StevenO 05-14-07, 12:02 AM	DM permitting you could start playing a Necropolitan at level one although you should still get hit with the monetary costs at some time. I would be VERY worried playing one from level one however. You may stand longer than a Con 6 Wizard (2hp) but you're both dead after taking 12 damage and this is the extreme case. You'd need to be more aware of your hp total because you can't afford to overextend as you don't have that 10hp buffer to final death.
DarkRhystar 05-14-07, 12:43 AM	DM permitting you could start playing a Necropolitan at level one although you should still get hit with the monetary costs at some time. I would be VERY worried playing one from level one however. You may stand longer than a Con 6 Wizard (2hp) but you're both dead after taking 12 damage and this is the extreme case. You'd need to be more aware of your hp total because you can't afford to overextend as you don't have that 10hp buffer to final death. However, I think you're overlooking a very obvious point. If the Necropolitan Wizard with 12 HP and the regular Wizard with 2 HP both take 3 to 11 damage, only the Necropolitan will still be able to fight back. Also it isn't rare for a Wizard to have 14 to 16 Constitution so that 2 HP should really be about 6 or 7 HP. However, I'd suspect the Necropolitan would probably have the Faeries Mysteries feat (Int to HP) to boost his total up to 16 or 17 HP (along with 6 or 10 attribute points he didn't spend on Constitution).
RobbyPants 05-14-07, 02:34 PM	charnel touch according to RAW heals 1 point +1 point every few levels. According to every single other Positive/Negative energy effect in all of D&D, it should have an equal effect. It is probably a typo, such as later in the book about Greater Harm doing 1D12 damage per caster level, which makes it weaker than Harm. I'm assuming it is intentional, largely because they take the time to type out a seperate amount of "damage" for healing. If they wanted it to be identical, it would have probably been worded something like: "... and heals a like amount of damage to undead creatures." Although, it's not that powerful to add the 1d8 back in. It won't buy you much during combat, and either way, it works out to effectively unlimited healing outside of combat, just slightly quicker.
StevenO 05-14-07, 02:50 PM	However, I think you're overlooking a very obvious point. If the Necropolitan Wizard with 12 HP and the regular Wizard with 2 HP both take 3 to 11 damage, only the Necropolitan will still be able to fight back. Also it isn't rare for a Wizard to have 14 to 16 Constitution so that 2 HP should really be about 6 or 7 HP. However, I'd suspect the Necropolitan would probably have the Faeries Mysteries feat (Int to HP) to boost his total up to 16 or 17 HP (along with 6 or 10 attribute points he didn't spend on Constitution). It is true enough that the Undead could still fight while a living character would be dying which is very valuable. My minor concern is using the mindset "I'm still walking so I'm good." as a living creature has a small buffer when they figure out that isn't all good. I'd also agree that most wizards would try to have a positive CON modifier which makes the extreme example not as relavent. When starting at 6 hp a lving Wizard only falls after taking half the damage needed to destroy a Necropolitan and would survive damage that is lethal to the undead. I haven't seen the feat allowing a character to use Int instead of Con for HP although I do know of one that allow that at first level. As for saving on stat when using point buy, if I were DMing I certainly wouldn't give a character lacking an ability score the same number of points as one with six scores to buy. If they played the character a couple levels with the terrible score that may be ok but otherwise I'll either require they buy the non-score to a value of 10 OR just reduce the total number of points available to spend on abilities.
DarkRhystar 05-14-07, 03:12 PM	It is true enough that the Undead could still fight while a living character would be dying which is very valuable. My minor concern is using the mindset "I'm still walking so I'm good." as a living creature has a small buffer when they figure out that isn't all good. I'd also agree that most wizards would try to have a positive CON modifier which makes the extreme example not as relavent. When starting at 6 hp a lving Wizard only falls after taking half the damage needed to destroy a Necropolitan and would survive damage that is lethal to the undead. The whole "I'm still walking so I'm good" mentality can be dangerous or it can be a correct view depending on the situation. I haven't seen the feat allowing a character to use Int instead of Con for HP although I do know of one that allow that at first level. As for saving on stat when using point buy, if I were DMing I certainly wouldn't give a character lacking an ability score the same number of points as one with six scores to buy. If they played the character a couple levels with the terrible score that may be ok but otherwise I'll either require they buy the non-score to a value of 10 OR just reduce the total number of points available to spend on abilities. The cost to become a Necropolitan is such that you cannot become one before 4th level (following the WBL guidelines that is). Meaning that if the character had truly wanted to dump Constitution, it would have to survive the first 3 levels of its career to get there (and then survive them again once it's there). I also disagree with changing a point buy based on what the character is going to do later. That's really unfair.
Prak, the Mad 05-14-07, 04:25 PM	Id look rather funny, I can prolly get away with just saying im uber pale, and very very skinny, but it would be hard trying to get people to side with me on things during all RP with NPC's Only if everyone in your game is a stereotype... If you've got thinking people behind the characters, about the worst you'd get is commoners running from you, and the occasional cleric/paladin of pelor trying to destroy you. But if your character is good aligned, maybe you could provide some very good rp opportunities, possibly with devotees of pelor trying to convince you to allow yourself to be returned to life. Although becoming a Necropolitan is effectively LA +1 (you need to die after all) there is no LA for the race so the characters level = ECL. A cleric at the same level probably has about a 25% chance that the could turn you; even if they could turn you they still have to burn lower level undead first so keeping a few high HD undead as servants can go a long way. That's why you simply don't allow the cleric a chance to turn, you either keep hitting them so they can't get off a turn, or give them other things to worry about. Not to mention that with the way necromanc works in core D&D, a first level necropolitan likely can't surround themselves with undead servants to absorb turn attempts. My wife plays a necropolitan dread necromancer. Yesterday, we encountered a higher level cleric, in a consecrated zone, with an altar. . . The DM was nice enough not to destroy her (for storyline reasons). But she was useless for the whole combat. Anyway, this was an auto-capture scenario. We were fighting on their terms and had no prep time and no rest since fighting 30 something warriors. In a normal scenario we wouldn't be so unprepared. Basically, I'm saying its a good template if you know your DM isn't going to destroy you every fight. Properly built you should worry about random encounters. It would be like worrying about your DM throwing in a wizard who focuses on save or dies. Every fight. If I were the dm of an undead character, I would make sure there was no way that being undead was a liability, as I believe the possibility of a single turn attempt making a character cower, let alone that of killing the undead character makes the game less fun. It's just not a player-friendly effect. Your DM may allow it for story reasons. I know that if you presented me with a very strong background story, I would seriously consider it ... despite being overpowered at level 1. But I'm more of a flavor guy myself (at least in the game ... books should be more crunch than flavor). The Hat of Disguise may not be sufficient to hide your undeadiness (since it only allows you to Change Self, which only allows your type ... ) ... although so long as you got a ... I forget the name. It allows corpses to not decompose for 1 day/caster level. So long as you got that every once in a while, it might not be apparent you are undead. Besides really cold hands. :P Undead, by and large, do not rot. especially not Necropolitans.
Millenia 05-15-07, 12:58 AM	The Hat of Disguise may not be sufficient to hide your undeadiness (since it only allows you to Change Self, which only allows your type ... ) ... although so long as you got a ... I forget the name. It allows corpses to not decompose for 1 day/caster level. So long as you got that every once in a while, it might not be apparent you are undead. Besides really cold hands. :P Gentle Repose (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gentleRepose.htm).
DarkRhystar 05-15-07, 12:13 PM	Gentle Repose Waste of a 3rd level spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gentleRepose.htm). Much better. Honestly, spending a 3rd level spell to duplicate visual effects that should be doable with a 1st level spell is sad.
Prak, the Mad 05-15-07, 12:31 PM	well, it wouldn't even do that, the appearance of a necropolitan is the result of the Ritual of Crucimigration, not decay. Necropolitans do not decay, and thus you don't need to use gentle repose at all. Hell, I wouldn't even use disguise magic, as I'd much rather open Rp opportunities.
HairyApe 05-15-07, 12:41 PM	Do Necropolitans have the Undead type?? If they do, while great RP fluff, a DN Necropolitan is sorta lame end game, as you have to be humanoid to use their capstone ability - lichdom.
Prak, the Mad 05-15-07, 12:45 PM	Do Necropolitans have the Undead type?? If they do, while great RP fluff, a DN Necropolitan is sorta lame end game, as you have to be humanoid to use their capstone ability - lichdom. well, ignoring the fact that D&D is hardly playable above 15th level... if I were the DM, I'd allow it, I think class given transformations should overcome type restrictions.
EvilVegan 05-15-07, 02:53 PM	Also it isn't hard to get a resurrection spell at 19th level to get into lich at 20th.
StevenO 05-16-07, 07:55 PM	The whole "I'm still walking so I'm good" mentality can be dangerous or it can be a correct view depending on the situation. True enough. At higher levels you will definitely do better with an undead's d12 HD than many other characters with a moderate HD size and Con Modifier plus the 10hp death's door buffer. The cost to become a Necropolitan is such that you cannot become one before 4th level (following the WBL guidelines that is). Meaning that if the character had truly wanted to dump Constitution, it would have to survive the first 3 levels of its career to get there (and then survive them again once it's there). I also disagree with changing a point buy based on what the character is going to do later. That's really unfair. A player who plays into a Necropolitan isn't really much of a problem as I see it. If it takes until 4th level to meet the requirement they have already passed the time when being undead is most dangerous. If a character has survived three levels with a dumped Constitution that isn't to bad although I'd make them sweat that decision at least once before they gain the non ability for becoming undead. If NOT playing into a Necropolitan (starting at 10th level say) I certainly WOULD enforce some kind of stat cost associated with having a non-ability; having to play a Con 6 elf wizard for 3-4 levels is a drawback while just saying a character endure that in the past is not. The problem is similiar to some character builds; a character with 10 levels in Mystic Theruge or Fochlucan Lyrist may be powerful but you have to question whether they'd actually have survived the early levels to reach that point. With classes the answer may be hard to decide but at least with ability scores it is pretty easy to see Score 10 is about equal to having a non-score. In case anyone is wondering I do consider the Necropolitan to be a fair way to play an undead character. Playing into it is fine but if you want to build a character starting as one there will be a small price to pay just to keep thing relatively even between the living and undead characters.
Prak, the Mad 05-16-07, 08:55 PM	In case anyone is wondering I do consider the Necropolitan to be a fair way to play an undead character. Playing into it is fine but if you want to build a character starting as one there will be a small price to pay just to keep thing relatively even between the living and undead characters. you mean like 3000gp?
StevenO 05-18-07, 02:07 AM	3000 gp for undead immunities is a bargain. 3000gp for that AND up to four extra ablities points from stat buy is an absolute steal.
DarkRhystar 05-18-07, 02:33 AM	3000 gp for undead immunities is a bargain. 3000gp for that AND up to four extra ablities points from stat buy is an absolute steal. Or you can just have the character "purchase" the template on the spot at the starting level. The character would then lose the gold and 2 levels (1 level and -1000 xp which drops another level). Thanks to D&D's experience system it wouldn't take too long to catch up, but it's a penalty none-the-less.