Need help estimating level adjustment! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Need help estimating level adjustment! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Mooncalf
10-16-07, 09:16 PM The circumstance is, my DM wants a group of 'freaks', a bunch of really odd characters, for his latest campaign. He'll let us play things the books usually consider unplayable, though we'll have to estimate level adjustment and HD progression and such.

Now, I remember with fondness certain opponents from Planescape: Torment, namely the cranium rats. Freakish little magical beasts, they would merge into hive minds when close to each other, and the more of them there were, the smarter they'd get. Once past a certain number, they'd get magic powers. I figured this'd be an awesome thing to play.

The Fiend Folio has entries on them, and estimating a level progression a la Savage Species should be a cinch. It says nothing about LA, though (or rather, it says '-' but that won't fly). I can estimate it on my own, already have done so, but I figured there might be a few insightful people here to offer their opinions and thoughts.

So how about it, people? Care to offer your thoughts? I'll be very thankful.

These are the salient points of the creature:

Medium swarm of diminutive magical creatures, 6HD. Has swarm traits, and is immune to weapon damage as they are diminutive. Despite the size of each rat, the swarm is medium and gains no size modifiers.

Can distract opponents who start their turn in an occupied square; opponent must pass fort save or be nauseated that turn. Does 2d6 damage to opponents without needing to roll to hit.

Can use Mind Blast (stuns 3d4 rounds on failed will save) every two rounds.

Is subsceptible to mind-affecting spells as if being a singular creature.

Darkvision, low-light vision.

+8 racial bonus on climb; has climb speed 20 and land speed 40.

+1 natural armor.

-8 STR, +6 DEX, +4 CON, -2 INT, +4 WIS, +2 CHA. Intelligence increases as HD increases.

Being of a very unusual body type, I'll probably not be able to equip items. Unless my DM thinks letting one rat carry a ring in its teeth counts, or such.

I think that's all. There's the Merge Swarm ability (two lesser swarms can merge and become an average swarm with twice as many HD) but my DM says I can't use that as I'm required to gain levels normally. Not that I actually thought I'd be able to get away with something like that. :D (Imagine a level 6 fighter becoming level 12 by merging with a party member! Cool, but very odd.)
IdleAltruism
10-16-07, 11:31 PM I suggest making your own custom template for the job. The LA and racial HD of these would be awful. The lack of magical items will hurt this character alot. I suggest looking at the Worm the walks from the ELH, might give you inspiration on swarm like characters.

It may seem like a cool idea, but a non humanoid form swam would be difficult to play effectively(especially with so many HD). I recommend making your own insect swarm. But if you must stick with rats, you're going to want some major bonuses. I believe there are moon rats, something kind of similar to cranium in the MM2. Not that they're anymore playable, but they are similar and I love the picture.

I would make an ever progressing racial level, sort of like a base class, for this sort of thing. If you want magic or psionic rats, make a caster(manifester) level progression at about -2 to -4 progression. Possibly growing larger as you level, size wouldn't really be an issue since you'd be a swarm anyways. It would be interesting to see what kind of concentration checks they'd have to make. Allow them to use magical gear like regular humanoids and possibly give them a couple bonus slots in place of the things they may be missing(however humorous a rat swarm dragging a +5 cloak of resistant would be, it would probably be very impractical). Wand/staff wielding rats would be awesome.

For the race you have I'd probably put them at a LA +2-3, they're racial HD is soaking up alot of that. Being effective with it would be difficult.
Mooncalf
10-18-07, 01:17 PM I suggest making your own custom template for the job. The LA and racial HD of these would be awful. The lack of magical items will hurt this character alot. I suggest looking at the Worm the walks from the ELH, might give you inspiration on swarm like characters.
Um... I think maybe using an epic aberration as concept for a 1st-level critter is not entirely proper. Anyway, while I get the gist of it, I was aiming for a hive-mind swarm rather than a group of critters pretending to be a single creature. Swarms have advantages.

I'd have HD/LA progression as the creatures mentioned in Savage Species and Libris Mortis. I don't foresee much trouble with that, seeing as the rest of the group would have their own progressions as well. No humanoids... monstrous humanoids at most.

As for magical items, I think the concept as whole requires little magic items. After all, a swarm in combat does automatic damage and can Distract, so I don't really need weapons, and I'm immune to weapon attacks. True, area spells can be painful. Also, my DM has made some cryptic comments on the issue of items, so I think maybe I'll have some options to get stuff affecting me without equipping it.

It may seem like a cool idea, but a non humanoid form swam would be difficult to play effectively(especially with so many HD). I recommend making your own insect swarm. But if you must stick with rats, you're going to want some major bonuses. I believe there are moon rats, something kind of similar to cranium in the MM2. Not that they're anymore playable, but they are similar and I love the picture.

Somewhat cool, but choosing between rats whose brainpower increases under the light of the moon and rats whose brainpower increases as their number increases, I'd choose the latter. Especially since we're underground. Also, cranium rats can mindblast, which makes them pretty darn useful.

I would make an ever progressing racial level, sort of like a base class, for this sort of thing. If you want magic or psionic rats, make a caster(manifester) level progression at about -2 to -4 progression. Possibly growing larger as you level, size wouldn't really be an issue since you'd be a swarm anyways.

Cranium rat swarms grow in size as their HD (and number of rats) increase. Also, somewhere between 7-12 HD they start casting spells (or manifesting powers) at a certain CL. -2 to -4 sounds roughly right, I need to check.

It would be interesting to see what kind of concentration checks they'd have to make.

I suspect it's the regular kind? I e 10 + damage taken. After all, a hive mind fills all its creatures, and if some rats get killed, it would probably be as painful as if a human is cut with a sword or such.

Allow them to use magical gear like regular humanoids and possibly give them a couple bonus slots in place of the things they may be missing(however humorous a rat swarm dragging a +5 cloak of resistant would be, it would probably be very impractical). Wand/staff wielding rats would be awesome.

DM says if I have one rat hold a ring of protection, that rat gets protected, not the swarm as a whole. I think it takes other measures to get full effect. I'd have a lot of fun with wands and such though, I'd wager.

Also, Vow of Poverty would solve all my problems, but that would just be too cheesy. (Not that rats wouldn't like some cheese. Argh, bad pun!)

For the race you have I'd probably put them at a LA +2-3, they're racial HD is soaking up alot of that. Being effective with it would be difficult.

Good point. Savage Species rules gave +4 (+1 each for climb speed, natural armor, higher ability score bonuses, and mindblast), but as you said, the HD eats it up. +1 natural armor isn't that awesome on higher levels. After level 12 I'll get increasing SR, and that's worth LA, but that's some ways off...

Thank you for your assistance. DM agreed on +2 LA, btw. I won't own the opposition, but I'll be a valuable ally of the group. Many valuable allies, actually. ^_^
IdleAltruism
10-18-07, 04:06 PM Um... I think maybe using an epic aberration as concept for a 1st-level critter is not entirely proper. Anyway, while I get the gist of it, I was aiming for a hive-mind swarm rather than a group of critters pretending to be a single creature. Swarms have advantages.

I was just using it as an example of a more character like swarm. More unique swarms could be created using similar ideas behind the worm that walks. Hive mind would be interesting, but generally hive minds have a leader.

Actually swarms don't have many advantages. They are interesting opponents, but I don't really see how they could be very advantageous as a PC option.

As for magical items, I think the concept as whole requires little magic items. After all, a swarm in combat does automatic damage and can Distract, so I don't really need weapons, and I'm immune to weapon attacks. True, area spells can be painful. Also, my DM has made some cryptic comments on the issue of items, so I think maybe I'll have some options to get stuff affecting me without equipping it.

D&D requires magic items.....theres only a few actual ways around this(VoP)

Somewhat cool, but choosing between rats whose brainpower increases under the light of the moon and rats whose brainpower increases as their number increases, I'd choose the latter. Especially since we're underground. Also, cranium rats can mindblast, which makes them pretty darn useful.

Again, they were just an example. I'm pushing for custom swarm. Cranium rats, however cool they may be, aren't going to make a very effective character. Efficiency is my concern, it may not be that bad for this campaign. Maybe everyones at an even power level, but in general I don't see this character doing very well(especially higher level).

Cranium rat swarms grow in size as their HD (and number of rats) increase. Also, somewhere between 7-12 HD they start casting spells (or manifesting powers) at a certain CL.

I don't think they actually grow if they don't have racial HD.

Increased Hit Dice

Intelligent creatures that are not humanoid in shape, and nonintelligent monsters, can advance by increasing their Hit Dice. Creatures with increased Hit Dice are usually superior specimens of their race, bigger and more powerful than their run-of-the-mill fellows.

I'm assuming only their monstrous HD are effecting their growth.

After level 12 I'll get increasing SR, and that's worth LA, but that's some ways off...

I don't think you get these abilities unless you take 6 extra racial HDs.

In my previous experiences mind blast isn't amazing. It sure is nice, but the DC save is sorta low and most monsters that would be affected by it could be dispatched rather quickly anyways(This was a higher level campaign with an actual mind flayer, he cranked the DC as high as possible and it still was resisted more often then not)

Thats very circumstantial and in lower level campaigns I'm sure the mind blast feature would probably be considered to powerful.
Mooncalf
10-19-07, 03:44 AM I was just using it as an example of a more character like swarm. More unique swarms could be created using similar ideas behind the worm that walks. Hive mind would be interesting, but generally hive minds have a leader.

The hive mind is a group consciousness, shared by every individual in the swarm. Cranium rats don't have a 'leader rat'. If two swarms meet, they merge into one mind, and if a group walks away too far, it separates and develops its own, weaker mind.

Actually swarms don't have many advantages. They are interesting opponents, but I don't really see how they could be very advantageous as a PC option.

I can think of plenty. Problem solving alone, it has many options along with a regular group. Plus it's fun.

D&D requires magic items.....theres only a few actual ways around this(VoP)

VoP is a bit cheesy, and you're usually expected to be good and kind. But there's always DM houseruling and unique items with strange properties.

Again, they were just an example. I'm pushing for custom swarm. Cranium rats, however cool they may be, aren't going to make a very effective character.

Unfortunately, that was kinda the main part of the basic concept.

Efficiency is my concern, it may not be that bad for this campaign. Maybe everyones at an even power level, but in general I don't see this character doing very well(especially higher level).

How not so? What is inefficient about it, other than a limited ability to use magic items? Please elucidate.

I don't think they actually grow if they don't have racial HD.

Well, I will be taking racial HD as levels. Though I rerad the book, and it turns out it doesn't change in size, actually. Not that I had need of greater size. Quite opposite...

I'm assuming only their monstrous HD are effecting their growth.

Well, yes. I won't get racial abilities by taking class levels. That is obvious.

I don't think you get these abilities unless you take 6 extra racial HDs.

In my previous experiences mind blast isn't amazing. It sure is nice, but the DC save is sorta low and most monsters that would be affected by it could be dispatched rather quickly anyways(This was a higher level campaign with an actual mind flayer, he cranked the DC as high as possible and it still was resisted more often then not)

Given that the DC increases with HD, it gets better. And it's not like I have ability scores from the book... PCs tend to roll higher. At higher levels I'll have a very high intelligence.

Of course, on higher levels I won't be relying on only mindblasting, I'll use psionic powers.
IdleAltruism
10-19-07, 01:34 PM I can think of plenty. Problem solving alone, it has many options along with a regular group. Plus it's fun.

I can't see much combat effectiveness with these. Even at epic levels they only get 10th manifester level, no damaging abilities, and many minor abilities.

How not so? What is inefficient about it, other than a limited ability to use magic items? Please elucidate.

This race is going to be behind at least 10 levels(or more) by caster standards, its entire career. Its combat abilities start to weaken after 10th level and continue on a downward spiral. That on top of not having gear makes it a poor PC choice.

Given that the DC increases with HD, it gets better. And it's not like I have ability scores from the book... PCs tend to roll higher. At higher levels I'll have a very high intelligence.

Even if you manage a 30+ int the DC will be 10+4+int. So dc 24 at 20th level+? With ability focus we get somewhere between 26-28. I think its a little strange they use INT for this power, but thats just basing it off of mindflayers, that and its a 3.0 book. Your higher end CR monsters are going to be 20+ will and a good chunk of them will be immune from the get go. The problem just get worse when you hit epic(but epic is a whole different story)

This is a common problem among all spellcasters. The DCs don't scale well as you level up, only problem is you don't have what other spellcasters do.

Of course, on higher levels I won't be relying on only mindblasting, I'll use psionic powers.

Looking at the book you won't have much psionic power. Mages/psionists half your level will be outcasting you.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mooncalf 10-16-07, 09:16 PM	The circumstance is, my DM wants a group of 'freaks', a bunch of really odd characters, for his latest campaign. He'll let us play things the books usually consider unplayable, though we'll have to estimate level adjustment and HD progression and such. Now, I remember with fondness certain opponents from Planescape: Torment, namely the cranium rats. Freakish little magical beasts, they would merge into hive minds when close to each other, and the more of them there were, the smarter they'd get. Once past a certain number, they'd get magic powers. I figured this'd be an awesome thing to play. The Fiend Folio has entries on them, and estimating a level progression a la Savage Species should be a cinch. It says nothing about LA, though (or rather, it says '-' but that won't fly). I can estimate it on my own, already have done so, but I figured there might be a few insightful people here to offer their opinions and thoughts. So how about it, people? Care to offer your thoughts? I'll be very thankful. These are the salient points of the creature: Medium swarm of diminutive magical creatures, 6HD. Has swarm traits, and is immune to weapon damage as they are diminutive. Despite the size of each rat, the swarm is medium and gains no size modifiers. Can distract opponents who start their turn in an occupied square; opponent must pass fort save or be nauseated that turn. Does 2d6 damage to opponents without needing to roll to hit. Can use Mind Blast (stuns 3d4 rounds on failed will save) every two rounds. Is subsceptible to mind-affecting spells as if being a singular creature. Darkvision, low-light vision. +8 racial bonus on climb; has climb speed 20 and land speed 40. +1 natural armor. -8 STR, +6 DEX, +4 CON, -2 INT, +4 WIS, +2 CHA. Intelligence increases as HD increases. Being of a very unusual body type, I'll probably not be able to equip items. Unless my DM thinks letting one rat carry a ring in its teeth counts, or such. I think that's all. There's the Merge Swarm ability (two lesser swarms can merge and become an average swarm with twice as many HD) but my DM says I can't use that as I'm required to gain levels normally. Not that I actually thought I'd be able to get away with something like that. :D (Imagine a level 6 fighter becoming level 12 by merging with a party member! Cool, but very odd.)
IdleAltruism 10-16-07, 11:31 PM	I suggest making your own custom template for the job. The LA and racial HD of these would be awful. The lack of magical items will hurt this character alot. I suggest looking at the Worm the walks from the ELH, might give you inspiration on swarm like characters. It may seem like a cool idea, but a non humanoid form swam would be difficult to play effectively(especially with so many HD). I recommend making your own insect swarm. But if you must stick with rats, you're going to want some major bonuses. I believe there are moon rats, something kind of similar to cranium in the MM2. Not that they're anymore playable, but they are similar and I love the picture. I would make an ever progressing racial level, sort of like a base class, for this sort of thing. If you want magic or psionic rats, make a caster(manifester) level progression at about -2 to -4 progression. Possibly growing larger as you level, size wouldn't really be an issue since you'd be a swarm anyways. It would be interesting to see what kind of concentration checks they'd have to make. Allow them to use magical gear like regular humanoids and possibly give them a couple bonus slots in place of the things they may be missing(however humorous a rat swarm dragging a +5 cloak of resistant would be, it would probably be very impractical). Wand/staff wielding rats would be awesome. For the race you have I'd probably put them at a LA +2-3, they're racial HD is soaking up alot of that. Being effective with it would be difficult.
Mooncalf 10-18-07, 01:17 PM	I suggest making your own custom template for the job. The LA and racial HD of these would be awful. The lack of magical items will hurt this character alot. I suggest looking at the Worm the walks from the ELH, might give you inspiration on swarm like characters. Um... I think maybe using an epic aberration as concept for a 1st-level critter is not entirely proper. Anyway, while I get the gist of it, I was aiming for a hive-mind swarm rather than a group of critters pretending to be a single creature. Swarms have advantages. I'd have HD/LA progression as the creatures mentioned in Savage Species and Libris Mortis. I don't foresee much trouble with that, seeing as the rest of the group would have their own progressions as well. No humanoids... monstrous humanoids at most. As for magical items, I think the concept as whole requires little magic items. After all, a swarm in combat does automatic damage and can Distract, so I don't really need weapons, and I'm immune to weapon attacks. True, area spells can be painful. Also, my DM has made some cryptic comments on the issue of items, so I think maybe I'll have some options to get stuff affecting me without equipping it. It may seem like a cool idea, but a non humanoid form swam would be difficult to play effectively(especially with so many HD). I recommend making your own insect swarm. But if you must stick with rats, you're going to want some major bonuses. I believe there are moon rats, something kind of similar to cranium in the MM2. Not that they're anymore playable, but they are similar and I love the picture. Somewhat cool, but choosing between rats whose brainpower increases under the light of the moon and rats whose brainpower increases as their number increases, I'd choose the latter. Especially since we're underground. Also, cranium rats can mindblast, which makes them pretty darn useful. I would make an ever progressing racial level, sort of like a base class, for this sort of thing. If you want magic or psionic rats, make a caster(manifester) level progression at about -2 to -4 progression. Possibly growing larger as you level, size wouldn't really be an issue since you'd be a swarm anyways. Cranium rat swarms grow in size as their HD (and number of rats) increase. Also, somewhere between 7-12 HD they start casting spells (or manifesting powers) at a certain CL. -2 to -4 sounds roughly right, I need to check. It would be interesting to see what kind of concentration checks they'd have to make. I suspect it's the regular kind? I e 10 + damage taken. After all, a hive mind fills all its creatures, and if some rats get killed, it would probably be as painful as if a human is cut with a sword or such. Allow them to use magical gear like regular humanoids and possibly give them a couple bonus slots in place of the things they may be missing(however humorous a rat swarm dragging a +5 cloak of resistant would be, it would probably be very impractical). Wand/staff wielding rats would be awesome. DM says if I have one rat hold a ring of protection, that rat gets protected, not the swarm as a whole. I think it takes other measures to get full effect. I'd have a lot of fun with wands and such though, I'd wager. Also, Vow of Poverty would solve all my problems, but that would just be too cheesy. (Not that rats wouldn't like some cheese. Argh, bad pun!) For the race you have I'd probably put them at a LA +2-3, they're racial HD is soaking up alot of that. Being effective with it would be difficult. Good point. Savage Species rules gave +4 (+1 each for climb speed, natural armor, higher ability score bonuses, and mindblast), but as you said, the HD eats it up. +1 natural armor isn't that awesome on higher levels. After level 12 I'll get increasing SR, and that's worth LA, but that's some ways off... Thank you for your assistance. DM agreed on +2 LA, btw. I won't own the opposition, but I'll be a valuable ally of the group. Many valuable allies, actually. ^_^
IdleAltruism 10-18-07, 04:06 PM	Um... I think maybe using an epic aberration as concept for a 1st-level critter is not entirely proper. Anyway, while I get the gist of it, I was aiming for a hive-mind swarm rather than a group of critters pretending to be a single creature. Swarms have advantages. I was just using it as an example of a more character like swarm. More unique swarms could be created using similar ideas behind the worm that walks. Hive mind would be interesting, but generally hive minds have a leader. Actually swarms don't have many advantages. They are interesting opponents, but I don't really see how they could be very advantageous as a PC option. As for magical items, I think the concept as whole requires little magic items. After all, a swarm in combat does automatic damage and can Distract, so I don't really need weapons, and I'm immune to weapon attacks. True, area spells can be painful. Also, my DM has made some cryptic comments on the issue of items, so I think maybe I'll have some options to get stuff affecting me without equipping it. D&D requires magic items.....theres only a few actual ways around this(VoP) Somewhat cool, but choosing between rats whose brainpower increases under the light of the moon and rats whose brainpower increases as their number increases, I'd choose the latter. Especially since we're underground. Also, cranium rats can mindblast, which makes them pretty darn useful. Again, they were just an example. I'm pushing for custom swarm. Cranium rats, however cool they may be, aren't going to make a very effective character. Efficiency is my concern, it may not be that bad for this campaign. Maybe everyones at an even power level, but in general I don't see this character doing very well(especially higher level). Cranium rat swarms grow in size as their HD (and number of rats) increase. Also, somewhere between 7-12 HD they start casting spells (or manifesting powers) at a certain CL. I don't think they actually grow if they don't have racial HD. Increased Hit Dice Intelligent creatures that are not humanoid in shape, and nonintelligent monsters, can advance by increasing their Hit Dice. Creatures with increased Hit Dice are usually superior specimens of their race, bigger and more powerful than their run-of-the-mill fellows. I'm assuming only their monstrous HD are effecting their growth. After level 12 I'll get increasing SR, and that's worth LA, but that's some ways off... I don't think you get these abilities unless you take 6 extra racial HDs. In my previous experiences mind blast isn't amazing. It sure is nice, but the DC save is sorta low and most monsters that would be affected by it could be dispatched rather quickly anyways(This was a higher level campaign with an actual mind flayer, he cranked the DC as high as possible and it still was resisted more often then not) Thats very circumstantial and in lower level campaigns I'm sure the mind blast feature would probably be considered to powerful.
Mooncalf 10-19-07, 03:44 AM	I was just using it as an example of a more character like swarm. More unique swarms could be created using similar ideas behind the worm that walks. Hive mind would be interesting, but generally hive minds have a leader. The hive mind is a group consciousness, shared by every individual in the swarm. Cranium rats don't have a 'leader rat'. If two swarms meet, they merge into one mind, and if a group walks away too far, it separates and develops its own, weaker mind. Actually swarms don't have many advantages. They are interesting opponents, but I don't really see how they could be very advantageous as a PC option. I can think of plenty. Problem solving alone, it has many options along with a regular group. Plus it's fun. D&D requires magic items.....theres only a few actual ways around this(VoP) VoP is a bit cheesy, and you're usually expected to be good and kind. But there's always DM houseruling and unique items with strange properties. Again, they were just an example. I'm pushing for custom swarm. Cranium rats, however cool they may be, aren't going to make a very effective character. Unfortunately, that was kinda the main part of the basic concept. Efficiency is my concern, it may not be that bad for this campaign. Maybe everyones at an even power level, but in general I don't see this character doing very well(especially higher level). How not so? What is inefficient about it, other than a limited ability to use magic items? Please elucidate. I don't think they actually grow if they don't have racial HD. Well, I will be taking racial HD as levels. Though I rerad the book, and it turns out it doesn't change in size, actually. Not that I had need of greater size. Quite opposite... I'm assuming only their monstrous HD are effecting their growth. Well, yes. I won't get racial abilities by taking class levels. That is obvious. I don't think you get these abilities unless you take 6 extra racial HDs. In my previous experiences mind blast isn't amazing. It sure is nice, but the DC save is sorta low and most monsters that would be affected by it could be dispatched rather quickly anyways(This was a higher level campaign with an actual mind flayer, he cranked the DC as high as possible and it still was resisted more often then not) Given that the DC increases with HD, it gets better. And it's not like I have ability scores from the book... PCs tend to roll higher. At higher levels I'll have a very high intelligence. Of course, on higher levels I won't be relying on only mindblasting, I'll use psionic powers.
IdleAltruism 10-19-07, 01:34 PM	I can think of plenty. Problem solving alone, it has many options along with a regular group. Plus it's fun. I can't see much combat effectiveness with these. Even at epic levels they only get 10th manifester level, no damaging abilities, and many minor abilities. How not so? What is inefficient about it, other than a limited ability to use magic items? Please elucidate. This race is going to be behind at least 10 levels(or more) by caster standards, its entire career. Its combat abilities start to weaken after 10th level and continue on a downward spiral. That on top of not having gear makes it a poor PC choice. Given that the DC increases with HD, it gets better. And it's not like I have ability scores from the book... PCs tend to roll higher. At higher levels I'll have a very high intelligence. Even if you manage a 30+ int the DC will be 10+4+int. So dc 24 at 20th level+? With ability focus we get somewhere between 26-28. I think its a little strange they use INT for this power, but thats just basing it off of mindflayers, that and its a 3.0 book. Your higher end CR monsters are going to be 20+ will and a good chunk of them will be immune from the get go. The problem just get worse when you hit epic(but epic is a whole different story) This is a common problem among all spellcasters. The DCs don't scale well as you level up, only problem is you don't have what other spellcasters do. Of course, on higher levels I won't be relying on only mindblasting, I'll use psionic powers. Looking at the book you won't have much psionic power. Mages/psionists half your level will be outcasting you.