need info on orc/half & elf/half breeding [Archive] - Wizards Community

need info on orc/half & elf/half breeding [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
tripleee69
09-16-07, 02:26 AM i think i heard that orc and elf dont breed but do half-orc & half elf ?
Because the human dna is good at blending races as shown in the books i would think they could but i still need more information.
Mark_Aged
09-16-07, 08:33 AM I think I remember reading somewhere that when a half anything breeds, the rest of the half's heritage isn't powerful enough to come though in the baby when they mate with a human, leading to just a normal human baby. But two different halfs mating may provide some interesting results.
taradusis
09-16-07, 08:45 AM When too many dna strands get involved there's always a chance of a Mongrelman developing.The Mongrelman rule was developed to stop someone from creating a part elf/dwarf/orc/crabman/minotaur/mermaid/troll/mindflayer/ogre/goblin/ettercap/aarocka mix.
StruckingFuggle
09-16-07, 01:14 PM When too many dna strands get involved there's always a chance of a Mongrelman developing.The Mongrelman rule was developed to stop someone from creating a part elf/dwarf/orc/crabman/minotaur/mermaid/troll/mindflayer/ogre/goblin/ettercap/aarocka mix.

The what rule?
Arscura
09-16-07, 03:17 PM I think he is referring to the race of the Mongrelman, but that is a race on its own through very much breeding. I see it as follows:

elf + human = half-elf
orc + human = half-roc

Half-elf + Half-elf = Half-elf
Half-orc + Half-orc = Half-orc
(genetically speaking 25% would be elf (or orc) and 25% human, but this is not a one gene transfer so this I actually much lower. So lower you need not take the chance into account (yes I have studied genetics))

Half-elf + Human = Human
Half-elf + Elf = Elf

Half-Orc + Half-Elf = Human (only 50% fertility, seeing half of DNA's don"t mix)
tripleee69
09-16-07, 04:03 PM this is some good information but whut if the human side is less than 50%? cause in my dm's game my party came across a very old gentics lab with the setup from the movie The fly with the three chambers it has 85% chance of perfect splicing regardless of race.
Arscura
09-16-07, 04:33 PM Okay, the problem is I do not know the movie 'the Fly'. However, with current technology (as said I do genetics) combining DNA is not a one-two-three step thing. Many thing simply won't work. God was quite smart in that.
As example, I am into the medication side of Biotechnology. I am trying to find and amplify genes of a species to see how they contribute to the overall pathogenesis (ability to make sick to put a bit simple), but some I can not even clone/duplicate/multiply. Even if you can find the gene and cut it out, which I think you mean by splicing, ligating it together does not always work. If not for the overhangs not fitting, than for the fact that G/C count is different per organisms. Some do not have all aminoacids. Others use different systems (okay probably not here as both organisms are eukaryote, but than Orcs and Elfs are quite different (after all that is what you are getting at)).
However, simply said after all this more and more specific job related terms, some DNA can not be added together. I think that is why WoTC never came out with an Erc or an Olf (Doesn't that sound stupid to you to? :P). This can be be defended and explained with modern knowledge and technology. Than it depends on your current technology level. After all, you come across a Gen Lab. I never saw that in D&D. It sounds more for Modern D20 game thing.
tripleee69
09-16-07, 05:04 PM the fly is about a guy making a teleport machine with two booths but a fly got in with him and their dna mixed when the machine broke him down and sent the information to the other booth and he slowly started mutating into a half fly human.

the gentic lab is a mix of epic but old arcane/psionic devices.
using powers from books like expanded psionics(fission/fussion) and books that deal with creating creatures or constructs.
taradusis
09-16-07, 06:00 PM Back during the days of basic D+D there were a lot of arguments about what would happen if "Halfsies" interbred.This led some people to contend that too much interbreeding leads to mongrelization.This lead to the creation of the Mongrelmen.I would reccomend having too much interbreeding result in sterile mules(which is what happens when dwarves and humans mate)or stillbirths.Failure to do so will give you a player who wants to play a hybrid that has the best of all worlds,and none of the drawbacks.
tripleee69
09-16-07, 06:18 PM my character is not lookin to make a perfect race
but to meddle with the laws of nature can be a little tempting
im looking to make this place my base of operation/exotic "pet" store.
the machine works both ways 2 become 1 and mixed breeds can be seperated.
Arscura
09-16-07, 06:57 PM I wonder what happens to the personality always in such films. Do you share it... or even if you brake it than what? Perhaps that power gives the answer. I don't have XPHB at the moment. Somebody is borrowing it from me.

Well, these movies (and things like Star Trek; it also used one time slowly upcoming DNA) belong to indeed a special type of fantasy. In principal that an entire organism changes after adding DNA is actually a bit impossible.

Let me try and convey what is possible.
In Micro Organisms we can add circular parts of DNA, called plasmids, bacteria can read this info and create products of the genes encoded. As such the organism gains a function. However, to make sure it doesn't throw this info out, after all it is usesless for the bacteria to make something if it doesn't have a function for it (what tends to happen when you add DNA from another bacteria), for it can throw the entire plasmid out, we add a resistance gene versus an antibiotic. All that throw the info out die, as we add the bacteria to the medium.
With larger organims like Eukaryotes (we humans are this, and so I take it in Elfs and Orcs are this) you come across another problem. All are cells are very specialised cells. These specialisation cells originated from a mother cell, so to say and later developed. Some parts can be rebuild and restored (think of skin and liver) and other parts can't (think of teeth). To add an entire new organs like wings from a fly... that requires so huge an adapation that, if possbile, it would take years.
Gene therapy makes use of 'injection' these 'mother cells' with genes to get things functioning. So making use of the own host system, but that is because the immune system is one of the system that keeps are entire life changing and adapting and rebuilding.
However, in D&D of course we have powers. If you ask me and you add an Orc and an Elf in that machine (you must be evil :P), you than ought to get a crossbreed... however mangled that may look.
Taking two half-breeds with partial DNA from two races, with both percentages of a human.... you get a very tricky problem. With other half-breeds the best eyesight stays (half-elfs low-light vision and half-orcs darkvision). However, Mongrelman (Fiend Folio by the way) have no bonus. That means WoTC is breaking something. At first you could consider the low-light vision and darkvision gene dominant. However, some races have both, and that makes it even weirder, and the Mongrelman have none. That the Mongrelman have none can be explained. Think of the following if you indeed have less than 50% human it can still not work. Why? Well, take the genes of eyesight. Half-Orcs have Darkvision and Elfs Low-light. The genes must be dominant for only one gene comes from each parent. If you mix them... which is dominant? Some creatures have both, but if that is a guideline ...and with the Mongrelman it is gone. And it is hard to say why... with humans two copies of a colour for eyesight brings the third... if I am correct this is brown. But you can have (like I have) several colours, none practising and so on... it is really difficult. Still continuing with the Half-Orc and Elf some genes overlap, as the eyesight. there must be human genes there for only one comes from each parent. So what eye sight comes (taking only one gene into account still) that is hard to predict. Taking it so it would be 25% darkvision, 25% low-light, 25% normal, 25% orc + elf combo, which could mean both, deactivation (yes, also humans have this (drat.. that is long ago, I am not sure, but an organism had this. I have seen an example somewhere in lectures. It is rare though (tongue curling is at least but one gene, dominant that is easy)). So it will be hard to predict. You see it is not just a matter of presence, but also dominance and just a presence. They are both half and if you take Mendel's law (the straightforward cross experiments) it could be mean that even with some human DNA in it at all, you get human traits back. It is a percentage change. As long as you cross half-breeds and there is some DNA that is compatible in there it can surface, even if recessive.
This all very hard explained after 30 min typing (I had to think ;) and it here being 1 AM, me needing to go to bed as I got a job)), I think it is more a thing of looking nicely for your DM. In general I can tell that intercross-breeding is not always helpfull for immune systems and Con as some people think... I see so many think that their or see abilities they give on "Cross-breeding toughness" which is bunch of crap, if you are going outside your species.... within humans, yeah, out if you go outside... well your child is now suddenly suspectible to the only orc pocs... tough luck as daddy (or mommy) was also suspectible and your human gene may not help one little bit... just so you know. People are right there is only so much info an organism can hold and we have duplicate genome. Seeing Humans interbreed with Orc and Elf, they most likely have this as well (knowing how hard it is to cross triplet and quintet (yes read correctly, five times the copy) plants with one another (tropical ferns even worse... what was it... eight times or so?)) it is likely if you cross everything you won't get a superspecies merely because the info is to redundant to show and must compete with all other pieces and bit creating rather something like a Mongrelman.

Really I have to quite... my arm is getting tired.... as well as my eyes... Hope this post made any sense and can help you tripleee69, even though it is but an answer you just have a percentage chance and you need to ask your DM... you at least got somebody with the scientific background to back that statement up now: "Sorry DM, it is just your taks at the DM took sit in your room awake untill 3 AM figuring out what the machine can make for me... What do you mean: remove that grin of my face?"
JarionSilverblades
09-16-07, 06:59 PM If you're looking for a half elf/orc check out my home brewed races orc-elf
yrogerg
09-17-07, 08:48 PM orc + human = half-roc

Badass! Where do I find the stats for that race? :P
TiwazTyrsfist
09-17-07, 09:39 PM Half-Elf + Half-Orc
Out of four off-spring, on average...
1 Human
1 Half-Elf
1 Half-Orc
1 Orc-Elf hybrid
Arscura
09-18-07, 02:26 AM Badass! Where do I find the stats for that race? :P

Haha, whoops. ;)

Half-Elf + Half-Orc
Out of four off-spring, on average...
1 Human
1 Half-Elf
1 Half-Orc
1 Orc-Elf hybrid

Sorry as you can read from my long message, based on my genetics background, it doesn't go like that. Not all follows Mendel's law. This is only for traits related to one gene. We are talking about an entire organism. It doesn't work like that...
TiwazTyrsfist
09-18-07, 10:06 AM Haha, whoops. ;)

Sorry as you can read from my long message, based on my genetics background, it doesn't go like that. Not all follows Mendel's law. This is only for traits related to one gene. We are talking about an entire organism. It doesn't work like that...

I know. I was joking.

Let's be honest here though. Do real world genetics apply to D&D? I mean, how likely is it that Humans and Elves or Orcs could even reproduce together, let alone produce viable, fertile offspring that breed true? Totally perposterous!
I mean, the tapetum lucidum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tapetum_lucidum), which is the logical explanation for lowlight vision, that alone points to them being totally seperate species. Add to that things like the elves multi-century lifespans, or the Half-Orcs ability to see Infra-Red, and we've reached a point of "That can't work".

In short, if you consider genetics, the concept that humans could cross-breed with orcs is about as silly as the concept of crossbreeding humans with lab mice.

Sooo, in a magical setting where we've already suspended realistic rules of genetics, who's to say that Mendel's law doesn't apply?
Arscura
09-18-07, 11:08 AM Yes, true. The lines always get awfully thin what you can use and what not. Like people trying to make predicitions of cultural development with the new factor of magic. Of course some laws are just thrown overboard, for the simplicity of it, however, some I can't. However, were you my DM and you said: "I rule so that it is possible in my world", than I throw it overboard of course. From the start it was a bit more genetic like though, but I can see your point.

P.s. Orcs see black and white, not infra-red. Infra-red vision is AD&D ;)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tripleee69 09-16-07, 02:26 AM	i think i heard that orc and elf dont breed but do half-orc & half elf ? Because the human dna is good at blending races as shown in the books i would think they could but i still need more information.
Mark_Aged 09-16-07, 08:33 AM	I think I remember reading somewhere that when a half anything breeds, the rest of the half's heritage isn't powerful enough to come though in the baby when they mate with a human, leading to just a normal human baby. But two different halfs mating may provide some interesting results.
taradusis 09-16-07, 08:45 AM	When too many dna strands get involved there's always a chance of a Mongrelman developing.The Mongrelman rule was developed to stop someone from creating a part elf/dwarf/orc/crabman/minotaur/mermaid/troll/mindflayer/ogre/goblin/ettercap/aarocka mix.
StruckingFuggle 09-16-07, 01:14 PM	When too many dna strands get involved there's always a chance of a Mongrelman developing.The Mongrelman rule was developed to stop someone from creating a part elf/dwarf/orc/crabman/minotaur/mermaid/troll/mindflayer/ogre/goblin/ettercap/aarocka mix. The what rule?
Arscura 09-16-07, 03:17 PM	I think he is referring to the race of the Mongrelman, but that is a race on its own through very much breeding. I see it as follows: elf + human = half-elf orc + human = half-roc Half-elf + Half-elf = Half-elf Half-orc + Half-orc = Half-orc (genetically speaking 25% would be elf (or orc) and 25% human, but this is not a one gene transfer so this I actually much lower. So lower you need not take the chance into account (yes I have studied genetics)) Half-elf + Human = Human Half-elf + Elf = Elf Half-Orc + Half-Elf = Human (only 50% fertility, seeing half of DNA's don"t mix)
tripleee69 09-16-07, 04:03 PM	this is some good information but whut if the human side is less than 50%? cause in my dm's game my party came across a very old gentics lab with the setup from the movie The fly with the three chambers it has 85% chance of perfect splicing regardless of race.
Arscura 09-16-07, 04:33 PM	Okay, the problem is I do not know the movie 'the Fly'. However, with current technology (as said I do genetics) combining DNA is not a one-two-three step thing. Many thing simply won't work. God was quite smart in that. As example, I am into the medication side of Biotechnology. I am trying to find and amplify genes of a species to see how they contribute to the overall pathogenesis (ability to make sick to put a bit simple), but some I can not even clone/duplicate/multiply. Even if you can find the gene and cut it out, which I think you mean by splicing, ligating it together does not always work. If not for the overhangs not fitting, than for the fact that G/C count is different per organisms. Some do not have all aminoacids. Others use different systems (okay probably not here as both organisms are eukaryote, but than Orcs and Elfs are quite different (after all that is what you are getting at)). However, simply said after all this more and more specific job related terms, some DNA can not be added together. I think that is why WoTC never came out with an Erc or an Olf (Doesn't that sound stupid to you to? :P). This can be be defended and explained with modern knowledge and technology. Than it depends on your current technology level. After all, you come across a Gen Lab. I never saw that in D&D. It sounds more for Modern D20 game thing.
tripleee69 09-16-07, 05:04 PM	the fly is about a guy making a teleport machine with two booths but a fly got in with him and their dna mixed when the machine broke him down and sent the information to the other booth and he slowly started mutating into a half fly human. the gentic lab is a mix of epic but old arcane/psionic devices. using powers from books like expanded psionics(fission/fussion) and books that deal with creating creatures or constructs.
taradusis 09-16-07, 06:00 PM	Back during the days of basic D+D there were a lot of arguments about what would happen if "Halfsies" interbred.This led some people to contend that too much interbreeding leads to mongrelization.This lead to the creation of the Mongrelmen.I would reccomend having too much interbreeding result in sterile mules(which is what happens when dwarves and humans mate)or stillbirths.Failure to do so will give you a player who wants to play a hybrid that has the best of all worlds,and none of the drawbacks.
tripleee69 09-16-07, 06:18 PM	my character is not lookin to make a perfect race but to meddle with the laws of nature can be a little tempting im looking to make this place my base of operation/exotic "pet" store. the machine works both ways 2 become 1 and mixed breeds can be seperated.
Arscura 09-16-07, 06:57 PM	I wonder what happens to the personality always in such films. Do you share it... or even if you brake it than what? Perhaps that power gives the answer. I don't have XPHB at the moment. Somebody is borrowing it from me. Well, these movies (and things like Star Trek; it also used one time slowly upcoming DNA) belong to indeed a special type of fantasy. In principal that an entire organism changes after adding DNA is actually a bit impossible. Let me try and convey what is possible. In Micro Organisms we can add circular parts of DNA, called plasmids, bacteria can read this info and create products of the genes encoded. As such the organism gains a function. However, to make sure it doesn't throw this info out, after all it is usesless for the bacteria to make something if it doesn't have a function for it (what tends to happen when you add DNA from another bacteria), for it can throw the entire plasmid out, we add a resistance gene versus an antibiotic. All that throw the info out die, as we add the bacteria to the medium. With larger organims like Eukaryotes (we humans are this, and so I take it in Elfs and Orcs are this) you come across another problem. All are cells are very specialised cells. These specialisation cells originated from a mother cell, so to say and later developed. Some parts can be rebuild and restored (think of skin and liver) and other parts can't (think of teeth). To add an entire new organs like wings from a fly... that requires so huge an adapation that, if possbile, it would take years. Gene therapy makes use of 'injection' these 'mother cells' with genes to get things functioning. So making use of the own host system, but that is because the immune system is one of the system that keeps are entire life changing and adapting and rebuilding. However, in D&D of course we have powers. If you ask me and you add an Orc and an Elf in that machine (you must be evil :P), you than ought to get a crossbreed... however mangled that may look. Taking two half-breeds with partial DNA from two races, with both percentages of a human.... you get a very tricky problem. With other half-breeds the best eyesight stays (half-elfs low-light vision and half-orcs darkvision). However, Mongrelman (Fiend Folio by the way) have no bonus. That means WoTC is breaking something. At first you could consider the low-light vision and darkvision gene dominant. However, some races have both, and that makes it even weirder, and the Mongrelman have none. That the Mongrelman have none can be explained. Think of the following if you indeed have less than 50% human it can still not work. Why? Well, take the genes of eyesight. Half-Orcs have Darkvision and Elfs Low-light. The genes must be dominant for only one gene comes from each parent. If you mix them... which is dominant? Some creatures have both, but if that is a guideline ...and with the Mongrelman it is gone. And it is hard to say why... with humans two copies of a colour for eyesight brings the third... if I am correct this is brown. But you can have (like I have) several colours, none practising and so on... it is really difficult. Still continuing with the Half-Orc and Elf some genes overlap, as the eyesight. there must be human genes there for only one comes from each parent. So what eye sight comes (taking only one gene into account still) that is hard to predict. Taking it so it would be 25% darkvision, 25% low-light, 25% normal, 25% orc + elf combo, which could mean both, deactivation (yes, also humans have this (drat.. that is long ago, I am not sure, but an organism had this. I have seen an example somewhere in lectures. It is rare though (tongue curling is at least but one gene, dominant that is easy)). So it will be hard to predict. You see it is not just a matter of presence, but also dominance and just a presence. They are both half and if you take Mendel's law (the straightforward cross experiments) it could be mean that even with some human DNA in it at all, you get human traits back. It is a percentage change. As long as you cross half-breeds and there is some DNA that is compatible in there it can surface, even if recessive. This all very hard explained after 30 min typing (I had to think ;) and it here being 1 AM, me needing to go to bed as I got a job)), I think it is more a thing of looking nicely for your DM. In general I can tell that intercross-breeding is not always helpfull for immune systems and Con as some people think... I see so many think that their or see abilities they give on "Cross-breeding toughness" which is bunch of crap, if you are going outside your species.... within humans, yeah, out if you go outside... well your child is now suddenly suspectible to the only orc pocs... tough luck as daddy (or mommy) was also suspectible and your human gene may not help one little bit... just so you know. People are right there is only so much info an organism can hold and we have duplicate genome. Seeing Humans interbreed with Orc and Elf, they most likely have this as well (knowing how hard it is to cross triplet and quintet (yes read correctly, five times the copy) plants with one another (tropical ferns even worse... what was it... eight times or so?)) it is likely if you cross everything you won't get a superspecies merely because the info is to redundant to show and must compete with all other pieces and bit creating rather something like a Mongrelman. Really I have to quite... my arm is getting tired.... as well as my eyes... Hope this post made any sense and can help you tripleee69, even though it is but an answer you just have a percentage chance and you need to ask your DM... you at least got somebody with the scientific background to back that statement up now: "Sorry DM, it is just your taks at the DM took sit in your room awake untill 3 AM figuring out what the machine can make for me... What do you mean: remove that grin of my face?"
JarionSilverblades 09-16-07, 06:59 PM	If you're looking for a half elf/orc check out my home brewed races orc-elf
yrogerg 09-17-07, 08:48 PM	orc + human = half-roc Badass! Where do I find the stats for that race? :P
TiwazTyrsfist 09-17-07, 09:39 PM	Half-Elf + Half-Orc Out of four off-spring, on average... 1 Human 1 Half-Elf 1 Half-Orc 1 Orc-Elf hybrid
Arscura 09-18-07, 02:26 AM	Badass! Where do I find the stats for that race? :P Haha, whoops. ;) Half-Elf + Half-Orc Out of four off-spring, on average... 1 Human 1 Half-Elf 1 Half-Orc 1 Orc-Elf hybrid Sorry as you can read from my long message, based on my genetics background, it doesn't go like that. Not all follows Mendel's law. This is only for traits related to one gene. We are talking about an entire organism. It doesn't work like that...
TiwazTyrsfist 09-18-07, 10:06 AM	Haha, whoops. ;) Sorry as you can read from my long message, based on my genetics background, it doesn't go like that. Not all follows Mendel's law. This is only for traits related to one gene. We are talking about an entire organism. It doesn't work like that... I know. I was joking. Let's be honest here though. Do real world genetics apply to D&D? I mean, how likely is it that Humans and Elves or Orcs could even reproduce together, let alone produce viable, fertile offspring that breed true? Totally perposterous! I mean, the tapetum lucidum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tapetum_lucidum), which is the logical explanation for lowlight vision, that alone points to them being totally seperate species. Add to that things like the elves multi-century lifespans, or the Half-Orcs ability to see Infra-Red, and we've reached a point of "That can't work". In short, if you consider genetics, the concept that humans could cross-breed with orcs is about as silly as the concept of crossbreeding humans with lab mice. Sooo, in a magical setting where we've already suspended realistic rules of genetics, who's to say that Mendel's law doesn't apply?
Arscura 09-18-07, 11:08 AM	Yes, true. The lines always get awfully thin what you can use and what not. Like people trying to make predicitions of cultural development with the new factor of magic. Of course some laws are just thrown overboard, for the simplicity of it, however, some I can't. However, were you my DM and you said: "I rule so that it is possible in my world", than I throw it overboard of course. From the start it was a bit more genetic like though, but I can see your point. P.s. Orcs see black and white, not infra-red. Infra-red vision is AD&D ;)