Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Potato_Dragon 06-11-07, 05:55 AM	Note that these are intended as fantasy variants of humans, and are not intended to be in any way racist or realistic. I just wonder if anyone thinks these are balanced, too weak, or too strong. Unless otherwise mentioned, assume bonus skill points and feat as normal. AMAZON: No extra skill points or feat, +2 str and +2 cha, favored class fighter. PYGMY: Small size, 20ft mv, +1 attack bonus with slings and thrown weapons. (Note: no str penalty!) CAVEFOLK: (as in "caveman") +2 con, -2 int, replace skill point bonuses with +2 to spot, listen, and survival, +1 attack bonus with slings, clubs, spears, and similar primitive weaponry, favored class barbarian. GOTH: -2 cha, low-light vision, light sensitivity, +2 to knowledge (arcana), knowledge (dungeoneering), and perform (acting). Okay, this one's a joke. Also, I had a human subrace (Jaxurians) in a 2nd ed AD&D campaign that never actually showed up much. They would probably translate as -2 con, +2 cha, replace the bonus feat with +2 to dodge AC and int/cha based checks made against (or to learn about) aberrations, plants, and magical beasts. They were a race of beautiful and willful albinos who looked very much alike because they were descended from only a handful of humans (extreme inbreeding). They regularly associated with all manner of bizarre beings, thus the bonuses. Their civilization was matriarchal with LE tendencies.
zeratulcraft 06-11-07, 06:01 AM	Cavemen already exist, Neanderthal in Frostburn. Goth, lol.
User5127 06-11-07, 01:32 PM	I would have a wilderness version of a halfling be a pigmy... as for goth. albino half-drow.
Potato_Dragon 06-12-07, 02:10 AM	I wasn't meaning to touch off a racism debate. Once again, this was meant to represent fantasy races that are closely related to humans - different enough to warrant stat differences, but not different enough to give another racial subtype. The "pygmy" type listed here is not in any way based off of real-world pygmies, but was meant to represent a generic very short but strong (for their size) race. I could have called them "igvorts" or some other random name, would that seem less racist? The "amazon" type here is meant to represent a common fantasy concept of amazons - tall, strong, beautiful female warriors who specifically breed themselves for those traits. It is not based on the real world matriarchal tribes of asia minor. The "cavefolk" stats are made up, not based on neanderthals or cro-magnons specifically. Not that I actually have much idea what they were like, anyway. By the way, if they're in Frostburn, how do the stats that I came up with compare? The Jaxurians, of course, are 100% made up, not based on anything whatsoever. The only thing I wanted to know was that, ignoring the goth (which is a joke I made up on the spot), is there anything unbalanced about these racial traits (as in, too strong or too weak) regardless of whether or not their subtype is "human"? If it bothers people you can just consider them all to be elven subraces named "igvort elves". ;)
penchant 06-12-07, 08:24 AM	The cavefolk is almost the same to the Neanderthal, so good call. The neanderthal has a bit more extreme stat trades, but it does have the weapon bonus you listed and of course the barbarian favored class. I like the other ones you made as well, but I think we would like to see more fluff on the writeups. A character race is more than a collection of stat adjustments after all. Think about what makes them more than just stats and more of a people.
BlackFiend 06-12-07, 09:43 AM	Penchant, You are an intelligent and humble person. Thank you for your sincerity. Yes, I do agree, its the right thing to do is to NOT give it real world names. Its just not needed. Take, I believe, NYAMBE. its an RPG setting in an African setting. But its not Aftrica. They go through considerable lengths to keep all things balanced, and to not use real world names and such. The same with Faerun. Everyone can see the image and guess the archetype, but the names are changed, and its sufficient enough to show balance. In fact, incredible amount of balance, especially regarding issues of race. Its a sensitive topic because its has always been a sensitive topic. Thank you for being mindful.
RobbyPants 06-12-07, 11:18 AM	They seem balanced enough to me. :)
ese76 06-12-07, 02:36 PM	Note that these are intended as fantasy variants of humans, and are not intended to be in any way racist or realistic. I just wonder if anyone thinks these are balanced, too weak, or too strong. Unless otherwise mentioned, assume bonus skill points and feat as normal. AMAZON: No extra skill points or feat, +2 str and +2 cha, favored class fighter. Amazon does not seem balanced at all - you are basically giving out +2 str and +2 cha with no penalty! This would be the only base race with ability boosts and no corresponding penalties whatsoever. That should tell you something - it's not balanced. In addition, strength is generally regarded as a highly desirable stat boost (note that half-orcs get two penalties to offset it). Also, no base race gets a bonus to a casting stat (Cha, Int, or Wis), which is a big help to casters. This race gets one AND a Str boost! It seems to me like Amazon has suddenly become an ideal choice of race for a number of classes: - first and foremost paladin - which gets ability score boosts to the two important stats - bards and sorcerers get a boost to their casting stat with no penalty to offset it - because of the strength bonus with no penalty, it's also a great choice for any of the fighting classes as well - barbarian, ranger, fighter - Cleric benefit from the Cha bonus with regard to turning, and extra Str always helps. - Monks and druids might enjoy the Str bonus too. - Rogues and wizards don't benefit much from this race, but it's still not a bad choice, given that there are no penalties! And who would ever want a half-orc anymore, with this as an option? A half-orc vs an Amazon gains darkvision at the sacrifice of 2 int and 4 cha!
AMGriffin 06-12-07, 09:43 PM	AMAZON: No extra skill points or feat, +2 str and +2 cha, favored class fighter. I don't know...I mean. That's one helluva paladin. It's hard to balance it. PYGMY: Small size, 20ft mv, +1 attack bonus with slings and thrown weapons. (Note: no str penalty!) That's pretty well and good. CAVEFOLK: (as in "caveman") +2 con, -2 int, replace skill point bonuses with +2 to spot, listen, and survival, +1 attack bonus with slings, clubs, spears, and similar primitive weaponry, favored class barbarian. Too strong. They need something else in place of the bonus feat. Maybe they could be eligible to take the scent ability as a feat? GOTH: -2 cha, low-light vision, light sensitivity, +2 to knowledge (arcana), knowledge (dungeoneering), and perform (acting). Okay, this one's a joke. How quirky. As for the whole racism thing...there is no racism here. I mean, he did not divide the three races into Mongoloid, Negroid, and Caucasoid. They are common fantasy staples of humans, and there is no connection whatsoever to the real life meaning of "race".
WizO_Cat 06-12-07, 11:06 PM	Ok, keep the posts on the subject of the thread, not other guests. Thank you.
JulesCARV 06-13-07, 02:01 AM	I had an idea for a human subrace; mind if I post it here? (if potato dragon wants to keep this about his subraces and views this as off-topic, then I'll edit this post away) Regal humans, or simply regals, are a subrace of humanity. Their origins are unknown: some claim that they are a result of selective breeding and magical manipulation among the once-ordinary human noble houses who gradually turned themselves into regals, while others maintain that regals are the chosen of the gods themselves. Regals are a superior grade of human, stronger, tougher, quicker, smarter, more perceptive, more eloquent, more attractive, and possessing an innate spark of magical power. In societies in which they exist, they usually are in positions of power and authority. Indeed, in some societies, they are the sole members of a ruling caste, possessing authority over the rest of humanity through divine right. In appearance, regals generally look like humans, although they are generally well dressed in expensive, fine clothing, and they are typically more attractive than most humans by typical human standards, with radiant, flawless skin, glossy, shining hair, and a general aura of health, vitality, nobility, and power. They have the same range of height and weight as ordinary humans, although they have a tendency toward the upper ends of the distributions: the largest ordinary humans and the largest regals are of the same size, and the smallest ordinary humans and the smallest regals are of the same size, but an average regal is bigger (roll three times for height, taking the highest). Just as humans prey upon lesser animals, regals prey upon mundane humans. Their physiology requires that they feed upon human flesh. Regals in positions of power generally acquire humans to slaughter from the ranks of criminals, vagabonds, and drifters. Where these prove insufficient, they cull the ranks of the serfs for the most useless, expendable, and heavy, sometimes fattening them for a few weeks prior to slaughter to improve yields. Sometimes regals also stage arena fights to the death, with the victor claiming great rewards and the vanquished becoming meat for the regals. Regals who are not in positions of power must resort to other means to acquire human meat. Regals have the same lifespan as regular humans, but once again, they tend toward the upper end of the distribution. (roll maximum age three times, taking the highest, for maximum age), with regals who live into their 100s not being uncommon. Regals are typically evil in alignment, although they are not particularly biased with respect to law and choas. Generally, their outlook is casually sociopathic, with a carefree, witty, self-confident, gregarious nature that allows them to swiftly rise in any social situation. Regals - +4 str, +2 dex, +2 con, +2 int, +2 wis, +4 cha -Medium -Base land speed: 30 feet -one extra feat at 1st level. -4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level -Darkvision 60 feet and low-light vision -+4 racial bonus on bluff, diplomacy and intimidate checks -Human blooded: counts as humanoid (human) for all effects relating to race. -Spell-like abilities (CL 5th): 3 / day: Command (DC 11 + cha) 1 / day: Death Knell (DC 12 + cha), Eagle's Splendor, Vampiric Touch -Spell resistance equal to 11 + hit dice -Flesh Dependency: A regal must eat one pound of human (not just any humanoid) flesh per day. The meat must be reasonably fresh (it lasts longer in colder environments, can be preserved through salting, etc, as with the standards of freshness of normal meat), and meat from humans who have died of natural causes such as disease or old age are generally unsuitable as food (although in some cases, such as a sudden heart attack in an otherwise healthy person during vigorous exercise, the meat may not be spoiled, and could be suitable for consumption). A regal who does not eat such human flesh that day takes 1 point of constitution damage and loses the benefit of natural healing of hit point and ability score damage for that day. As a starvation effect, this cannot be restored with magical healing. A regal with a ring of sustenance, clear spindle ioun stone, or similar effect still does not heal naturally without human flesh, but no longer takes constitution damage from abstaining. -Automatic Languages: Common Bonus languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic) -Favored Class: Any -Level Adjustment: +3
Potato_Dragon 06-13-07, 02:22 AM	Okay, hmm, probably right about the amazon, I've mostly played 2nd edition and am still used to thinking of charisma as a mostly useless stat. Especially since we mostly just roleplayed interactions rather than just rolling for NPC reactions based on charisma. Plus the Vanara get +2 cha and +2 wis for -2 str, and they have a boatload of skill bonuses, so... forgive me for thinking the charisma is only a minor bonus? Hmm, the only way to fix that would be beef it up and make it LA+1 (probably not a good idea), make it +1 str and cha (a bit problematic, but half-elves do it) or disallow any class that gets a major boost from charisma (ha ha, no). I can't come up with any drawback that works from a flavor perspective. Cavefolk... if that's a little too good, maybe drop the weapon bonus, add -2 to cha, or both. Any comments on the Jaxurians? (Recap: -2 con, +2 cha, lose the bonus feat, +2 dodge AC and int/cha skill checks vs. aberrations/magical beasts/plants) I'm pretty sure that the con penalty is big enough to balance out the other stuff (what bard, sorceror, or paladin wants a crappy constitution? Not that they'd be likely to become paladins anyway). Theirs was a weird society, with dominant but symbiotic roles over/with a wide variety of other creatures. For example, they had "tree sentries" as border guards and observers (basically, pine treants with LN alignment and a bit lower int) and kept "spirajens" as bodyguards/pets (think six-legged spiderlike abberation with a giant eyeball that shoots magic missles instead of a head. Not inspired by the mad slasher, this was 2nd ed). And they also often associated with certain types of intelligent creatures that other humans considered to be monsters. Well, someone wanted a little more flavor, and this is something I actually used. Edit: I had an idea for a human subrace; mind if I post it here? (if potato dragon wants to keep this about his subraces and views this as off-topic, then I'll edit this post away) No, go right ahead, I don't mind. So... basically, that's a living ghoul lord?
ragoftag 06-14-07, 06:48 PM	JulesCARV-Interesting fluff direction! Might use these as one of my 'failed' races from earlier ages. I have several that aren't much more than a line or 2. These could really push the 'horror' envelope!
Dracomortis 06-14-07, 07:23 PM	Also, no base race gets a bonus to a casting stat (Cha, Int, or Wis), which is a big help to casters. This race gets one AND a Str boost! Maybe not the base races from the Player's Handbook, but there are plenty of published LA 0 races that have bonuses to mental stats. Besides, saying that races can't have boosts to casting stats because it helps spellcasters is like saying half-orcs can't have a Strength bonus because it helps barbarians. In fact, as you pointed out, mental stats actually carry less weight than physical stats (although I do not agree with Wizards on this, as the importance of a given stat depends entirely on what build your character is). As for the amazon, I would suggest just dropping the Charisma bonus and describing them as incredibly beautiful and physically appealing. Charisma is more your force of personality than your physical appearance, so you can be beautiful without a high Charisma.
AMGriffin 06-15-07, 02:11 AM	...Then it's just a +2 strength. I'd give a 'em a few bonuses to amazonish things, like intimidate, handle animal, and...maybe something flavorish towards men.
Dracomortis 06-16-07, 10:18 AM	...Then it's just a +2 strength. I'd give a 'em a few bonuses to amazonish things, like intimidate, handle animal, and...maybe something flavorish towards men. Skill bonuses sound good, although it might be difficult to work in something for men as, traditionally, amazons were always female.