New Level-Adjustment System [PEACH] [Archive] - Wizards Community

New Level-Adjustment System [PEACH] [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Shedeo
08-13-07, 04:11 PM Okay, my friend and I had been using our own alternative method for getting around level adjustment. That was that you could gain double your level adjustment in racial hit dice and call it square. But we realized that system didn't work as well as we would have liked.

So, thusly, we did something different, and that's where this comes in.

Our new system for level adjustment is as follows.
Level-Adjustment Hit-Dice: You gain a number of these hit dice equal to your level adjustment.

Base Attack Bonus: Low (as wizard)
Skills: 6+Intelligence modifier (if the level adjustment hit dice are their first-level hit dice, they gain 6+Intelligence modifier x 4 as normal.)
Hit Dice: d6
Saving Throws: All low (like a commoner)

So... What do we think?
KurenaiYami
08-13-07, 04:15 PM Not balanced. All you're doing is making the level-adjusted races stronger, unless I misread something.

Level adjustment is made to balance the powerful abilities a race has. Giving it levels in commoner instead of a level adjustment doesn't quite achieve that.
DrRufio
08-13-07, 04:43 PM Yeah, you are giving them something where there used to be nothing, making it more powerful than before. You are probably going to have to go with something along the lines of what you were originaly doing and give them more racial hit die or level adjustment hit die (what ever you are calling them) than their actual level adjustment to keep it balanced.
Shedeo
08-13-07, 05:39 PM Well, the problem that I have with the level-adjustment system is that spells like Fear or Cloudkill could potentially affect one party member and not the rest on the simple fact that they have less hit dice. This was the goal of this system.

I definitely see your point, and I was skeptical (as I always am) of any new level adjustment system (especially my own). But looking at it the other way- the first level Drow Warrior presented in the MM would have more HP, more skills, a better base attack bonus.

So my question is, basing it off something like this (gaining LA hit dice or racial hit dice) is there actually a way to make a system that would be balanced for general use?
Thomar_of_Uointer
08-13-07, 10:06 PM Well, the problem that I have with the level-adjustment system is that spells like Fear or Cloudkill could potentially affect one party member and not the rest on the simple fact that they have less hit dice. This was the goal of this system.

I definitely see your point, and I was skeptical (as I always am) of any new level adjustment system (especially my own). But looking at it the other way- the first level Drow Warrior presented in the MM would have more HP, more skills, a better base attack bonus.

So my question is, basing it off something like this (gaining LA hit dice or racial hit dice) is there actually a way to make a system that would be balanced for general use?

Yes. You can give a character 2 Hit Dice (of their creature type) in place of +1 LA, but only in certain cases. The CR advancement rules use different ratios for different types of Hit Die advancement, and you could surely use those to achieve what you're looking for.
Unfortunately, this leads to monsters being very high-level as PCs, and greatly hinders monstrous spellcasters. You're better off sticking with the standard LA rules.

Another solution I've come up with is this: http://kobolds-keep.net/Progressions.pdf
You have to add specific abilities to the lists to get specific types of monsters, but for generic types it works fine.
Shedeo
08-14-07, 04:09 PM Yes. You can give a character 2 Hit Dice (of their creature type) in place of +1 LA, but only in certain cases. The CR advancement rules use different ratios for different types of Hit Die advancement, and you could surely use those to achieve what you're looking for.
Unfortunately, this leads to monsters being very high-level as PCs, and greatly hinders monstrous spellcasters. You're better off sticking with the standard LA rules.

Another solution I've come up with is this: http://kobolds-keep.net/Progressions.pdf
You have to add specific abilities to the lists to get specific types of monsters, but for generic types it works fine.

Well, that's a good idea. You can nullify one LA for X amount of racial hit dice, dependent on what creature type those racial hit dice are. S'got some definite possibilities.

I'd still like to find a way to balance a LA trade off somehow (though the buyoff system from UA is a little... Wonky IMO) with the LA hit dice.
If I were to make it all low saves, low base attack, 2+ skills, and a d6 hit dice, what would that look like? I mean yes, I'd still be giving them something where there was once nothing, but its not really... Anything special, yanno? Just some extra HP and the allowance to avoid such spells as Cloudkill.

Those generic progressions are awesome, btw.
Thomar_of_Uointer
08-14-07, 10:07 PM Well, that's a good idea. You can nullify one LA for X amount of racial hit dice, dependent on what creature type those racial hit dice are. S'got some definite possibilities.

I'd still like to find a way to balance a LA trade off somehow (though the buyoff system from UA is a little... Wonky IMO) with the LA hit dice.
If I were to make it all low saves, low base attack, 2+ skills, and a d6 hit dice, what would that look like? I mean yes, I'd still be giving them something where there was once nothing, but its not really... Anything special, yanno? Just some extra HP and the allowance to avoid such spells as Cloudkill.

Those generic progressions are awesome, btw.

Something where there was nothing is noticeably something, sorry. Really, if you give a race with LA something that has enough impact that you notice, then it's too much of an impact. The LA is already determined with these penalties in mind.

There are some cases where LA was not playtested properly. You may want to move things around, letting a monster have lower LA just to see how much it impacts gameplay with lower LA. Just remember that most LAs have problems because they're about half a level off.

And thanks for the compliment, let me know how you use them if you do.
Shedeo
08-15-07, 12:19 AM Well, you are correct. It is something. But my line of thinking is... Even if its something, is it really overpowered?

I can see that as a yes or no thing. Like, take a Half-Dragon for example. The Half-Dragon, even with 3d6 hp and the setup I described above is going to be a bit unbalanced at third level. But at fourth level under the current LA system, that same half-dragon is rediculously underpowered. The only thing I can think of is some kind of "savage" progression, but not in the Savage Species kind of way, more along the lines of the Raptoran.

I think I may try to work something out like that, where you have a set amount of "LA hitdice" like I described in my last post, but some of your abilities are postponed until later.

Edit: Looking back on it, the +8 to STR and the ability to fly are pretty nice at third level, but with those hit dice, would the Half-Dragon as-is at third level really bring too terribly much more trouble to the table?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Shedeo 08-13-07, 04:11 PM	Okay, my friend and I had been using our own alternative method for getting around level adjustment. That was that you could gain double your level adjustment in racial hit dice and call it square. But we realized that system didn't work as well as we would have liked. So, thusly, we did something different, and that's where this comes in. Our new system for level adjustment is as follows. Level-Adjustment Hit-Dice: You gain a number of these hit dice equal to your level adjustment. Base Attack Bonus: Low (as wizard) Skills: 6+Intelligence modifier (if the level adjustment hit dice are their first-level hit dice, they gain 6+Intelligence modifier x 4 as normal.) Hit Dice: d6 Saving Throws: All low (like a commoner) So... What do we think?
KurenaiYami 08-13-07, 04:15 PM	Not balanced. All you're doing is making the level-adjusted races stronger, unless I misread something. Level adjustment is made to balance the powerful abilities a race has. Giving it levels in commoner instead of a level adjustment doesn't quite achieve that.
DrRufio 08-13-07, 04:43 PM	Yeah, you are giving them something where there used to be nothing, making it more powerful than before. You are probably going to have to go with something along the lines of what you were originaly doing and give them more racial hit die or level adjustment hit die (what ever you are calling them) than their actual level adjustment to keep it balanced.
Shedeo 08-13-07, 05:39 PM	Well, the problem that I have with the level-adjustment system is that spells like Fear or Cloudkill could potentially affect one party member and not the rest on the simple fact that they have less hit dice. This was the goal of this system. I definitely see your point, and I was skeptical (as I always am) of any new level adjustment system (especially my own). But looking at it the other way- the first level Drow Warrior presented in the MM would have more HP, more skills, a better base attack bonus. So my question is, basing it off something like this (gaining LA hit dice or racial hit dice) is there actually a way to make a system that would be balanced for general use?
Thomar_of_Uointer 08-13-07, 10:06 PM	Well, the problem that I have with the level-adjustment system is that spells like Fear or Cloudkill could potentially affect one party member and not the rest on the simple fact that they have less hit dice. This was the goal of this system. I definitely see your point, and I was skeptical (as I always am) of any new level adjustment system (especially my own). But looking at it the other way- the first level Drow Warrior presented in the MM would have more HP, more skills, a better base attack bonus. So my question is, basing it off something like this (gaining LA hit dice or racial hit dice) is there actually a way to make a system that would be balanced for general use? Yes. You can give a character 2 Hit Dice (of their creature type) in place of +1 LA, but only in certain cases. The CR advancement rules use different ratios for different types of Hit Die advancement, and you could surely use those to achieve what you're looking for. Unfortunately, this leads to monsters being very high-level as PCs, and greatly hinders monstrous spellcasters. You're better off sticking with the standard LA rules. Another solution I've come up with is this: http://kobolds-keep.net/Progressions.pdf You have to add specific abilities to the lists to get specific types of monsters, but for generic types it works fine.
Shedeo 08-14-07, 04:09 PM	Yes. You can give a character 2 Hit Dice (of their creature type) in place of +1 LA, but only in certain cases. The CR advancement rules use different ratios for different types of Hit Die advancement, and you could surely use those to achieve what you're looking for. Unfortunately, this leads to monsters being very high-level as PCs, and greatly hinders monstrous spellcasters. You're better off sticking with the standard LA rules. Another solution I've come up with is this: http://kobolds-keep.net/Progressions.pdf You have to add specific abilities to the lists to get specific types of monsters, but for generic types it works fine. Well, that's a good idea. You can nullify one LA for X amount of racial hit dice, dependent on what creature type those racial hit dice are. S'got some definite possibilities. I'd still like to find a way to balance a LA trade off somehow (though the buyoff system from UA is a little... Wonky IMO) with the LA hit dice. If I were to make it all low saves, low base attack, 2+ skills, and a d6 hit dice, what would that look like? I mean yes, I'd still be giving them something where there was once nothing, but its not really... Anything special, yanno? Just some extra HP and the allowance to avoid such spells as Cloudkill. Those generic progressions are awesome, btw.
Thomar_of_Uointer 08-14-07, 10:07 PM	Well, that's a good idea. You can nullify one LA for X amount of racial hit dice, dependent on what creature type those racial hit dice are. S'got some definite possibilities. I'd still like to find a way to balance a LA trade off somehow (though the buyoff system from UA is a little... Wonky IMO) with the LA hit dice. If I were to make it all low saves, low base attack, 2+ skills, and a d6 hit dice, what would that look like? I mean yes, I'd still be giving them something where there was once nothing, but its not really... Anything special, yanno? Just some extra HP and the allowance to avoid such spells as Cloudkill. Those generic progressions are awesome, btw. Something where there was nothing is noticeably something, sorry. Really, if you give a race with LA something that has enough impact that you notice, then it's too much of an impact. The LA is already determined with these penalties in mind. There are some cases where LA was not playtested properly. You may want to move things around, letting a monster have lower LA just to see how much it impacts gameplay with lower LA. Just remember that most LAs have problems because they're about half a level off. And thanks for the compliment, let me know how you use them if you do.
Shedeo 08-15-07, 12:19 AM	Well, you are correct. It is something. But my line of thinking is... Even if its something, is it really overpowered? I can see that as a yes or no thing. Like, take a Half-Dragon for example. The Half-Dragon, even with 3d6 hp and the setup I described above is going to be a bit unbalanced at third level. But at fourth level under the current LA system, that same half-dragon is rediculously underpowered. The only thing I can think of is some kind of "savage" progression, but not in the Savage Species kind of way, more along the lines of the Raptoran. I think I may try to work something out like that, where you have a set amount of "LA hitdice" like I described in my last post, but some of your abilities are postponed until later. Edit: Looking back on it, the +8 to STR and the ability to fly are pretty nice at third level, but with those hit dice, would the Half-Dragon as-is at third level really bring too terribly much more trouble to the table?