Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Uchiha_Arthas 10-26-07, 04:32 PM	First I apologize if I am making a new thread too similar to another that I just made but the questions I had in that thread were mostly answered and I didn't want to clutter it up. I have a few more questions regarding the Half-Dragon Template from Races of the Dragon & Monster Manual: 1) Racial Hit Dice: This is the root of my confusion with this Template currently. I am using a (Frost) elf race as a base race but that has No Racial HD. Tordak made me take a second look at this issue and it raised a few questions. 2) Breath Weapon: On page 70 of Races of the Dragon it states that my breath weapons DC should be: 10+1/2 Racial HD + Con Mod. (This is backed up by the Monster Manual entry on Half Dragons.) Problem No Racial HD. 3) Increased HD: On page 71 of the Races of the Dragon, under the Draconic Racial Class features its stated that upon taking the fourth level in the class the Racial HD of the Half-Dragon increase by one size and player gets to re-roll all the old Racial HD. Problem No Racial HD. 4) Racial Skill Points: On page 71 of the Races of the Dragon, under the Draconic Racial Class features its states upon reaching 4th level in the Draconic Racial Template, you also get your Skill points set to 6+Int for each of your Racial HD (x4 for first). If this is greater then your old one then you get an inrease. If this is less then your old one, well you get a decrease. Problem No Racial HD. Can anyone give me a good suggestion of what to do about this? If I go with my gut and use Class Levels as HD, then the breath weapon becomes: 10 + 1/2 Class Level + Con Mod, My duskblades has to reroll all his HD as his d8's have become d10's and I go from 2+Int Skill points to 6+Int Skill points per level. Very tempting but I am not to sure about balance. If I try to ignore these issues and treat myself as having no racial HD, then I do think that the Race Template has taken a dip in its overall power and needs to be changed in some manner to reflect this.
rampant 10-26-07, 04:41 PM	As a house rule my group always plays that the breath DC increases with class levels, but we leave the rest alone. The problem is the Half-dragon is designed really for monsters, but most people use it for characters.
xaryuo 10-26-07, 06:21 PM	Me too I'm creating a half dragon character using the draconic racial class in RotD. I'm to do a lvl 3 character. I,m a bit confused as to how to take the racial lvl. First, I take my lvl 1(say cleric 1). On the same time, I take the 1st lvl of the racial class (giving me a +2 spot and intimidate). As I understand the book, I'm still a lvl 1 character. At second lvl, I take the 2nd lvl of the racial class and, according to the text, I have and effective character lvl of 3? That's the bit I'm confused about the book. At first lvl, the first lvl of dragon has no lvl adjustment, but the 2nd lvl has 2? Am I correct?
Uchiha_Arthas 10-26-07, 06:46 PM	Me too I'm creating a half dragon character using the draconic racial class in RotD. I'm to do a lvl 3 character. I,m a bit confused as to how to take the racial lvl. First, I take my lvl 1(say cleric 1). On the same time, I take the 1st lvl of the racial class (giving me a +2 spot and intimidate). As I understand the book, I'm still a lvl 1 character. At second lvl, I take the 2nd lvl of the racial class and, according to the text, I have and effective character lvl of 3? That's the bit I'm confused about the book. At first lvl, the first lvl of dragon has no lvl adjustment, but the 2nd lvl has 2? Am I correct? Your right for the most part just wrong for ECL. Your Cleric at Level 1 has +2 bonuses to Spot & Intimidate. When you gain enough XP for level two, you have to take one level in Half-Dragon (You get +2 to three stats here ). This makes you a level 1 Cleric and level 1 Half-Dragon for a total ECL of 2. Now you gain enough XP for Level 3. Here you have a choice: You can choose to raise your level in Cleric or you can choose to become a level 2 Half-Dragon. You could choose keep leveling your cleric for ever if you choose to. You could become a Level 19 Cleric and Level 1 Half-Dragon. However everytime you level'd up you would still have the choice open to become Level 2 Half-Dragon. If you do choose to become a Level 2 Half-Dragon (Breath weapon comes in here) you no longer have a choice for your next level. Lets say you became a Level 2 Cleric and Level 1 Half-dragon (Your ECL is 3 at this point). You gain enough XP for fourth level and choose to become a Level 2 Half-Dragon. You now have a ECL of 4. You then gain enough XP to hit level 5. You HAVE to take the last level of Half-Dragon at this point. You can't choose to take a level of cleric or any other class.
Salla 10-26-07, 07:21 PM	First I apologize if I am making a new thread too similar to another that I just made but the questions I had in that thread were mostly answered and I didn't want to clutter it up. I have a few more questions regarding the Half-Dragon Template from Races of the Dragon & Monster Manual: 1) Racial Hit Dice: This is the root of my confusion with this Template currently. I am using a (Frost) elf race as a base race but that has No Racial HD. Tordak made me take a second look at this issue and it raised a few questions. 2) Breath Weapon: On page 70 of Races of the Dragon it states that my breath weapons DC should be: 10+1/2 Racial HD + Con Mod. (This is backed up by the Monster Manual entry on Half Dragons.) Problem No Racial HD. 3) Increased HD: On page 71 of the Races of the Dragon, under the Draconic Racial Class features its stated that upon taking the fourth level in the class the Racial HD of the Half-Dragon increase by one size and player gets to re-roll all the old Racial HD. Problem No Racial HD. 4) Racial Skill Points: On page 71 of the Races of the Dragon, under the Draconic Racial Class features its states upon reaching 4th level in the Draconic Racial Template, you also get your Skill points set to 6+Int for each of your Racial HD (x4 for first). If this is greater then your old one then you get an inrease. If this is less then your old one, well you get a decrease. Problem No Racial HD. Can anyone give me a good suggestion of what to do about this? If I go with my gut and use Class Levels as HD, then the breath weapon becomes: 10 + 1/2 Class Level + Con Mod, My duskblades has to reroll all his HD as his d8's have become d10's and I go from 2+Int Skill points to 6+Int Skill points per level. Very tempting but I am not to sure about balance. If I try to ignore these issues and treat myself as having no racial HD, then I do think that the Race Template has taken a dip in its overall power. Class HD are not Racial HD. You do not get boosted HP, changed skill points, or anything else.
xaryuo 10-26-07, 07:25 PM	Thanks, it helps a lot. I have some other questions. I hope I'm not polluting your post to much Uchiha_Arthas. My questions fit perfectly with yours. When I take my lvl in half-dragon, there is no increase in the number of Hit dice, BAB, saving throws, skill points and max skill rank. Am I correct? So, the only new hp I get are from the increase in CON. Is the +1 hp from the +2 CON is applied only on the lvl 1 cleric or the lvl1 cleric and lvl1 half dragon? (Do I have +1 or +2 hp?) Also, I do not understand very well how it works for the racial HD. My base race is a kender. I do not know what are the racial HD, skill point and racial class skill to adjust when I will get my last lvl in half-dragon.
Uchiha_Arthas 10-26-07, 07:32 PM	Class HD are not Racial HD. You do not get boosted HP, changed skill points, or anything else. *sigh* So what do you think I should get instead? If its +3 LA template if extra large HD, More Difficult Breath weapon and skill points are included, what is it without those things?
Uchiha_Arthas 10-26-07, 08:14 PM	Thanks, it helps a lot. I have some other questions. I hope I'm not polluting your post to much Uchiha_Arthas. My questions fit perfectly with yours. np :) When I take my lvl in half-dragon, there is no increase in the number of Hit dice, BAB, saving throws, skill points and max skill rank. Am I correct? So, the only new hp I get are from the increase in CON. Is the +1 hp from the +2 CON is applied only on the lvl 1 cleric or the lvl1 cleric and lvl1 half dragon? (Do I have +1 or +2 hp?) It's only applied on your Cleric Level, Not on your Half-Dragon Level. So only +1 hp in total. Also, I do not understand very well how it works for the racial HD. My base race is a kender. I do not know what are the racial HD, skill point and racial class skill to adjust when I will get my last lvl in half-dragon. Thats what I am asking here myself.;)
risner 10-27-07, 03:20 AM	1) Racial Hit Dice: This is the root of my confusion with this Template currently. I am using a (Frost) elf race as a base race but that has No Racial HD. 2) Breath Weapon: On page 70 of Races of the Dragon it states that my breath weapons DC should be: 10+1/2 Racial HD + Con Mod. (This is backed up by the Monster Manual entry on Half Dragons.) Problem No Racial HD. 3) Increased HD: On page 71 of the Races of the Dragon, under the Draconic Racial Class features its stated that upon taking the fourth level in the class the Racial HD of the Half-Dragon increase by one size and player gets to re-roll all the old Racial HD. Problem No Racial HD. 4) Racial Skill Points: On page 71 of the Races of the Dragon, under the Draconic Racial Class features its states upon reaching 4th level in the Draconic Racial Template, you also get your Skill points set to 6+Int for each of your Racial HD (x4 for first). If this is greater then your old one then you get an inrease. If this is less then your old one, well you get a decrease. Problem No Racial HD. Can anyone give me a good suggestion of what to do about this? If I go with my gut and use Class Levels as HD, then the breath weapon becomes: 10 + 1/2 Class Level + Con Mod, My duskblades has to reroll all his HD as his d8's have become d10's and I go from 2+Int Skill points to 6+Int Skill points per level. Very tempting but I am not to sure about balance. If I try to ignore these issues and treat myself as having no racial HD, then I do think that the Race Template has taken a dip in its overall power and needs to be changed in some manner to reflect this. Racial HD is racial only HD, which if you have a base race with no racial HD, then you have NO racial HD. You would have a breath weapon of 10 + 0 + Con Mod. You would have the HD you rolled as a Duskblade (d8?) You would have 2+INT from the Duskblade. In other words, you gain nothing from the template that refers to Racial HD since you have no Racial HD. If you were a Half Dragon Ogre, then your Racial HD would be altered as suggested and you would have an ECL of the Ogre's + 3. Me too I'm creating a half dragon character using the draconic racial class in RotD. I'm to do a lvl 3 character. I,m a bit confused as to how to take the racial lvl. First, I take my lvl 1(say cleric 1). On the same time, I take the 1st lvl of the racial class (giving me a +2 spot and intimidate). As I understand the book, I'm still a lvl 1 character. At second lvl, I take the 2nd lvl of the racial class and, according to the text, I have and effective character lvl of 3? That's the bit I'm confused about the book. At first lvl, the first lvl of dragon has no lvl adjustment, but the 2nd lvl has 2? Am I correct? The best way to look at it is this: The racial progression levels are LA+1, LA+2, and finally LA+3 levels. If you are a 1st level character (ECL 1) Half Dragon, then you have the abilities of a Cleric 1st level and that is it. At 2nd level, you are ECL 2 and have a single HD as a Cleric with a LA+1 template (the Draconic template.) At 3rd level, you are ECL 3 and have a single HD as a Cleric with a LA+2 template (the must take all 3 Half Dragon template.) At 4th level, you are ECL 4 and have a single HD as a Cleric with a LA+3 template (the full Half Dragon template.) So you get +1 HP from the CON +2 change because you have only 1 HD (Cleric.) You get nothing for racial stuff since afaik Kender doesn't have any Racial HD.
risner 10-27-07, 03:33 AM	*sigh* So what do you think I should get instead? If its +3 LA template if extra large HD, More Difficult Breath weapon and skill points are included, what is it without those things? http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfDragon.htm It is these things without those things: 1) Str +8, Con +2, Int +2, Cha +2 2) darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision. 3) immunity to sleep and paralysis and one element immunity. 4) gains a breath weapon. 5) two claw attacks and a bite attack. 6) Natural armor improves by +4. What more do you want? ;-) If it did what you asked, it would be far greater than LA+3.
Uchiha_Arthas 10-27-07, 11:10 PM	http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfDragon.htm It is these things without those things: 1) Str +8, Con +2, Int +2, Cha +2 2) darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision. 3) immunity to sleep and paralysis and one element immunity. 4) gains a breath weapon. 5) two claw attacks and a bite attack. 6) Natural armor improves by +4. What more do you want? ;-) If it did what you asked, it would be far greater than LA+3. It wasn't so much what I was asking ( I actually brought it up because I was worried about balance) but rather me saying its LA+3 taking bonuses for Racial HD into account, if Racial HD are not involved (at all) then is it still LA+3? Anyway I managed to have a quick three minute chat with my DM at a friend's place and we did come to a few tentative decisions pending the actual game night, they aren't final by any means though (the fact that I am still two levels shy of gaining any of these abilities makes it something we can take our time on and discuss fully). Please look at them and tell me what you think: 1) Breath Weapon: Has a DC of 10 + 1/2 Class Level + Con Mod. (This is partly due to the Dragon Shaman having the exact same DC and the Dragon Disciple (10 Level PRC) having the DC = 10 + Class Level in Prc + Con Mod. So it seemed to both of us that having a Max DC 20 + Con Mod was the goal of WoTC.) [Status: This is fairly final] 2) Skill Points: Gone totally, I only get my normal skill points but I do get the Dragon Wings feat [Races of the Dragon pg 100] when I get wings for free. That's basically a large increase on Jump checks and I can glide (not fly) 30 ft without a medium load. (This seemed ok to us as Wizards get a fly spell at level 5 and this is not nearly as good. Technically this means a Half-Dragon could fly (glide)at an ECL of four but my char will get it at an ECL of 7 at earliest.) [Status: Pending Final discusion at game night] 3) Increased Hit Dice: We didnt get a chance to discuss this but I did mention it to him. So right now I'm still scratching my head and thinking of ideas. If anyone has good ideas or sees some sort of unbalancing flaws please post and tell me :).
risner 10-28-07, 08:04 AM	If anyone has good ideas or sees some sort of unbalancing flaws please post and tell me :). I see it as unbalancing, since you are not paying the additional level adjust you would need to pay for these additional abilities like a combined Ogre/Half Dragon pays. In other words, stacking the LA of the Half Dragon with the LA and HD of another race that has both gains you additional benefits. I don't see the need to add additional benefits in the case of no additional racial HD in the base LA+3 template. At least not without making the base Half Dragon template a higher LA, like LA+4 or LA+5. But, that being said, your DM has approved these changes. He is fully within his rule 0 right to do so.
Uchiha_Arthas 10-28-07, 01:01 PM	I see it as unbalancing, since you are not paying the additional level adjust you would need to pay for these additional abilities like a combined Ogre/Half Dragon pays. In other words, stacking the LA of the Half Dragon with the LA and HD of another race that has both gains you additional benefits. I don't see the need to add additional benefits in the case of no additional racial HD in the base LA+3 template. At least not without making the base Half Dragon template a higher LA, like LA+4 or LA+5. But, that being said, your DM has approved these changes. He is fully within his rule 0 right to do so. @Risner: This seems to be main point of contention between your view and mine: It wasn't so much what I was asking ( I actually brought it up because I was worried about balance) but rather me saying its LA+3 taking bonuses for Racial HD into account, if Racial HD are not involved (at all) then is it still LA+3? You believe that even if Racial HD are not involved in the equation then it is still a LA+3 template. I on the other hand dont see why an Ogre who has paid LA+2 for his abilities gets further additonal abilities over any other race that gets this template. Take the Drow in comparison, they are also a LA+2 race but if they were to take this template then the Ogre would get additional benifits over the Drow, which in my opinion the Ogre has not paid for.[For the record: My character is a Sun-Elf, not a Drow so please no Drizz't/Drow munchkin comments ;) ]. The fact that of two seperate races (which apparently have been judged to have similar levels of power :rolleyes: ) get different levels of abilities due to this template doesn't seem fair to me. If this was a LA+4 for Ogres then LA+3 for the Drow then O.k, it would make better sense to me. P.S: Sorry if I seem to be signalling you out Risner but your a) The only one who has replied ;) and b) have a point of view I am still trying to understand properly.
risner 10-28-07, 10:43 PM	b) have a point of view I am still trying to understand properly. The Half Dragon template is NOT a weak template at LA +3. The Soldarin's ECL Calculator puts the template at being worth LA +3.6 without Wings, Racial HD bonuses, or natural weapons. http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/shadows/Handbook/ECLcalc.html What does that mean? For instance, a breath weapon that DOES NOT increase with levels is worth 0.5 LA. So if you removed the breath weapon, the racial HD bonuses, and the natural attacks from the Half Dragon template, you would still have a balanced LA +3 template. So there is no reasonable argument to boost this template more in the case of not having racial HD. There certainly is no reason to grant it a Breath weapon that increases by Character Level (which is a full LA +1 ability by itself.) But, you can play your game any way you and your DM are comfortable.
Uchiha_Arthas 11-02-07, 11:31 AM	Just thought I'd give an update on what my Group decided in the end, The DM did ask the rest of the group their opinions but no one objected to the wings (Couple even said Wings should have been in as standard) and all agreed on the Skill points being too much and Breath Weapon's DC being Boosted. 1) Breath Weapon: Has a DC of 10 + 1/2 Class Level + Con Mod. 2) Bonus Skill Points are gone, Replaced by Dragon Wings Feat. 3) Hit Dice increase: My group decided to let me have this which quite frankly surprised the heck out of me. I think the only reason they are doing so is because they want to see me actually get less hit points then I currently have (At 4th level with d8 hit dice, I have 31 hp out of a max possible of 32 hp.) I believe their intention is to laugh very very loudly every time I roll less then an eight on the d10. ;)
blade265 11-05-07, 04:46 AM	From page 181 of the Player's Handbook: Hit Dice: The term "Hit Dice" is used synonymously with "character levels" for effects that affect a number of Hit Dice of creatures. Creatures with Hit Dice only from their race, not from classes, have character levels equal to their Hit Dice. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060404a Class Level Gaining a class level grants a creature a host of benefits, as a look through the class descriptions in the Player's Handbook will show. Here's a summary of the perks a class level grants: A Hit Die. The class description shows the Hit Die's size. If this is the first Hit Die the creature receives, the Hit Die has the maximum result. When a creature of the humanoid type with one racial Hit Die or fewer gains its first class level, the racial Hit Die is dropped in favor of the class Hit Die. Creatures of other types simply add the class Hit Die to their existing Hit Dice, even if they have only one racial Hit Die. (The text dealing with monsters as races in the Dungeon Master's Guide doesn't make this clear, but the text in the Monster Manual does; see page 290). If the creature has levels from other classes, the Hit Die from the new class is added to the creature's total Hit Dice. From page 190 of the Monster Manual: Humanoids and Class Levels: Creatures with 1 or less HD replace their monster levels with their character levels. For example, a goblin sorcerer loses its humanoid attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, skills, and feats, and gains the attack bonus, save bonuses, skills, feats, and other class abilities of a 1st-level sorcerer. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060411a