Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Asahisa 05-11-07, 08:11 PM	i'm a semi new DM (I've played for a while but never really screwed around with races like these) I plan on doing a solo campaign as a DM with someone who wants to play as a lycanthrope (lythari). I've never really had to deal with level adjustments so I dont totally get how they work >.>; it says animal base attack bonus of +1... and that she gets a level adjustment of +2 for a natural lycanthrope and 2 more for hit die... that makes her a level four character with a base attack bonus of +1? that doesn't sound good... can someone explain this to me? how do templates and level adjustments work. how does the character assign skill points? what about characters that dont have racial hit die? how do you start at level 1 if the level adjustment is +1 or higher >.>; I'm confused xD
Tsuul 05-11-07, 08:16 PM	Here is a simple way to start the lycanthrope character at first level. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031114a Scroll down, it's not just a progression on a fiendish creature. What is the animal type? A progression may already have been made. Scroll to the very bottom and you will see article links for weretiger and werewolf.
TheGreenGriffon 05-11-07, 08:25 PM	Basically a level adjustment goes and readjusts the character level of a PC due to certain special benefits that make it more powerful then a regular character would be. For example a 3rd level human fighter as a character level of 3 because humans have no level adjustment. However if that PC was actually a drow elf (level adjustment +2) and had 3 levels of fighter he would be considered to have a character level of 5 because Drows have strong abilities that make them more powerful then a standard race with no level adjustment. That character although he only has 3 class levels would be a 5th level character for all purposes directly involved with challenge rating and experience. a 3rd level drow fighter would have 10000 exp and would require 15000 to gain an additional level and would have equipment and money equal to a 5th level character. The answer to your last question is you cant start a level 1 character with a +1 lvl adjustment and it be still level one. These level adjustment races such as templates like Lycanthropes are more for higher then lvl 1 campaigns or for someone making a new character in an existing campaign. But you can use the method mentioned above which treats being a race as taking levels until you've developed all the creatures abilities. Their is more of this in the Savage Species manual.
Asahisa 05-11-07, 08:46 PM	I think I get it; I prefer using that way: taking racial levels to develop the characters abilities. I dont mind starting the campaign at level 4 either but the book I was using (races of faerun) doesn't explain what base attack and saving throws to give each level of the race or template. So I guess at level 4 when the character would be done developing it's racial abilities it would have 4d8 hit die and a base attack of +3? 14 skill points for that level? I'm still a little confused but I think I'm starting to get it lol.
TheGreenGriffon 05-11-07, 09:04 PM	Using it the straight up way involves some number crunching especially for Lycanthropy templates. They are the most complicated im sorry to say. With the books that do things the leveling way they usually tell you all th base attack and save throw stuff right on the page. I believe the monster manual tells you how to calculate all the Lycanthropy character stuff and what base attacks bonuses you use and what saving throws and such.
Asahisa 05-11-07, 09:12 PM	I think I sorta kinda get how to do this werewolf stuff but not what abilities to give other creatures with level adjustments; thank you you for your help so far though ^_^
Asahisa 05-12-07, 12:33 AM	if anyone happens to still read this; lets say for example I wanted to make a drow or a pixie; how much hp would a level 3 drow have ( 1 level in a character class) or a level 5 pixie have? how many skill points would I start with? it would seem more a disadvantage to have level a level 5 character with a base attack bonus of 0 or the same for a level 3 character... there must be some mechanic to balance it out
TheGreenGriffon 05-12-07, 12:40 AM	The drow would have as many hit dice as his class levels would indicate. a 1st level drow fighter would have 1d10 +CON bonus. A pixie would be the same. It would get hit dice equal to how many class levels it has (5 in this case). If the pixie has greater hit dice then normal it would gain those as well. Basically most is based on class. Skills and skill points too. Basically you may have less hit dice and skill points then say a character with no level adjustment who is the same character level but yopu have abilities they don't.for example Drow have inherent spells, spell resistance, greater stat bonuses etc and so does the pixie.
Asahisa 05-12-07, 01:14 AM	I think I get it; so basically roll a level 1 character but having an ECL of 5 or w/e the race demands. it seems in the end a bigger disadvantage than advantage; but if its a solo campaign or one where both our level adjustments are the same it will kind of even out I guess lol; it will be like playing a normal campaign where we level up much more slowly; do I have that right?
TheGreenGriffon 05-12-07, 04:55 PM	Sometimes yes it can be harder depending on the campaign. some races get their racial hit dice like monsters to help keep them a little more even. I find the monster chracters if not leveled like in Savage Species can actually be pretty powerful and on par with anything else. Like an orge fighter may not have as many levels but he has extra hit dice and superior strength that keep him even.
Seldriss 05-12-07, 05:22 PM	Keep also in mind that your ECL determines your character's level, and thus, the challenge of the adventures you will be thrown in, and the level of the monsters. A first level drow mage is ECL3 (1 class level + LA+2), and thus can be put against 3rd level opponents. Though for a mage with 4HP and a few 1st level spells...
Silvermoon 05-16-07, 09:11 AM	I just want to have more information about a pixie player. Level Adjustment: +4 (+6 with irresistible dance) (Let's say only the +4). So what is the minimum a character must be to become a pixie/thief 1 for example? is it a 4th level or a 5th level? And is there a table where you can start at level 1 and increase with time until you reach the level where you can take a player's handbook class level?
Morwen 05-16-07, 09:17 AM	I just want to have more information about a pixie player. Level Adjustment: +4 (+6 with irresistible dance) (Let's say only the +4). So what is the minimum a character must be to become a pixie/thief 1 for example? is it a 4th level or a 5th level? And is there a table where you can start at level 1 and increase with time until you reach the level where you can take a player's handbook class level? The minimum is 5th level (1 class level and +4 level adjustment = 5). If you have Otto's dance, you must be minimum 7th level. There is a savage progression for the Pixie in Savage Species. The book is 3.0 though, so some of the Pixie's features have likely changed. Also, that progression includes the Pixie's one racial hit die. You can swap that HD for your first class level instead.
Selgard 05-16-07, 09:26 AM	to Op) I'd like to take a moment to point out that if you are doing a solo campaign, as your first post suggested, then the LA is actually relatively irrelevant. LA is to balance characters against -each other-. (i.e. so your 1st level barbarian lycanthrope isn't standing beside the 1st level fighter or wizard, etc). If you are in a solo campaign all you need to do is adjust the monsters up a tad, and keep doing so, until you are satisfied that the character is being sufficiently challenged.
sark 05-16-07, 03:34 PM	How do you calculate BAB and saves? e.g. the pc is starting effectively as a level 1 "whatever" but because of the ECL adjustment they may be race level 3/4?
Silvermoon 05-16-07, 03:45 PM	IMHO The BAB is the class take you took and have nothing to do with the race. So a pixie/fighter 1 will have a BAB of +1 and will have the save of a fighter level 1. Your character will be of level 5.
Morwen 05-16-07, 04:48 PM	How do you calculate BAB and saves? e.g. the pc is starting effectively as a level 1 "whatever" but because of the ECL adjustment they may be race level 3/4? Both BAB and Base Save bonuses work off Hit Dice. Both Racial Hit Dice and class levels factor into them, with each monster type (Outsider, Animal, Magical Beast, etc) having its own progression, just like the classes are different. Races with no Racial Hit Dice (such as Pixie) do not provide any BAB or Base Save bonuses on their own.
Silvermoon 05-28-07, 11:44 AM	What about skills, feats and ability. Still taking the Pixie / Thief example. On level 5, does she has the skill maximum total of 8 or 4 as if it was 1st level? I know that for the skill, it should be only 1st level thief so (8+int) x 4. Same thing for the feats and/or ability increase. I think it will answer the answer to these in the same time. Thanks
itwasntme 05-28-07, 12:25 PM	Lets say your a Drow you have +2 LA one easy way to state how LA works is as follows your makeing your drow character level 1 your starting XP acts like a character 2 levels higher then you (ie 3) and in order to level up you need the XP of the level above that (ie 4) so you start the game with 3000 XP and in order to level up you must have 6000 XP Besides that you are a LEVEL 1 Character meaning your Max rank is 4 (Like that of a level 1 character) your starting gold is that of a Level 1 character your Class abilitys is that of a level 1 character your Starting HP Spells you can cast or know is that of a level 1 character your caster level is that of a level 1 character for eveything BUT Experience your like a level 1 character so in other words a Level 1 Drow is ECL 3 (Meaning there Experience and What type of monsters they should be takeing on and Experience gain) so if you where level 2 (ECL 4) And you fought a CR 1 Monster you would gain experience like a level 4 character killed it and not a level 2 character meaning in order for you to fight monsters which would give you normol Experience they must be CR or ECL (CR = Challange Rating ECL= Effective Character Level) of +2 higher then your own (Becouse your a Drow with +2 LA) (LA= Level Adjustment) So your level 1 Character needs 6000 XP to become a level 2 character that means you DO NOT Get the ability Bonus you would get for level 4 you DO not have level 4 HP You DO NOT have level 4 Spells per day or known or spell caster level (Meaning Spell caster Check) You do not have the Base Saves as a Level 4 character you do not have the Bonus feat you get at thrid level you do not have the max rank skill points of a 4th character when your level 1 drow levels up for all normol reasons they act like a level 2 Character But There Experience needed for level 3 is the experience needed for a level 5 character (They need level 3 XP +2 LA = 5 so 5th level XP = 10,000) so you will have when you level up Level 2 Gold (On Standerd normol Wise) Level 2 Base saves ... basicly eveything a level 2 human would have (Besides the basic extra feat and skill points they get) anthoer way DM State LA Is the same as above BUT this Level 1 you have 0 XP (Insteed of 3000) And if you want to be level 2 you must get 3000 XP (Or some other form of this) though REMEBER you will be gaining experience More Slowly then a level 1 character would be considering for experience wise on gaining XP is that of a character 2 levels higher then you (So level 1 monsters like Orcs would give you less XP then they normoly do) Allso note to determin the Saves other characters need to make it acts like a level 1 character (Sense you basicly are a level 1 character but are fighting monsters 2 levels higher then you) Max rank for your level 1 character (Or ECL 3 drow) is that of a level 1 character same with class abilitys hp Base Save Base Attack bonus so on so forth so remeber a level 1 Drow Fighter has 10 hp + His con mod a level 3 character (Which the drow is so pos to be able to take on) that is of a fighter has 10 + Con mod + Con Mod + Con Mod + d10 + d10 meaning the monsters your drow fighter should be fighting has about 3 times more HP then your character Thus is the arguement on why Drow can Suck horriblely ... if there a spellcaster even worse considering it take you forever to get your next level spell ... by then eveyone eles is chucking there high level spells at you and you still sitting there with your baby low level spell that eveyone can save agest ... this is how level Adjustment works you basicly get ****ed with in the long run this is one arguement on why Drow are a horrible race becouse of there LA ...
Einvaldurinn_mikli 05-28-07, 12:27 PM	Besides that you are a LEVEL 1 Character meaning your Max rank is 4 (Like that of a level 1 character) your starting gold is that of a Level 1 character This is false. Otherwise, this was a surprisingly accurate post.
itwasntme 05-28-07, 12:33 PM	What about skills, feats and ability. Still taking the Pixie / Thief example. On level 5, does she has the skill maximum total of 8 or 4 as if it was 1st level? I know that for the skill, it should be only 1st level thief so (8+int) x 4. Same thing for the feats and/or ability increase. I think it will answer the answer to these in the same time. Thanks It would be only as a First level character If your LA is +4 then you only act like a level 5 character on terms of Experience nothing eles (Thats experience you gain and need to level up) and monsters your fighting besides that your a level 1 character on Eveything eles (HP AC BAB Base Saves class abilitys Skill points Max Rank on Skills No bonus feat from 3rd level intill your character is 3rd level ... and with +4 LA your ECL has to be 7 in order to get your 3rd level abilitys you would normoly gain) so your max Rank of skill points on a ECL 5 character with +4 LA (Meaning your level 1) Is just like a level 1 character Max Rank of 4 Starting Skill points of the class and HP you do not have the ability bonus you norloly get at level 4 or the bonus feat or the extra hp class abilitys or anything eles like that
itwasntme 05-28-07, 12:41 PM	for you Pixie if it cant cast ottos irrestible dance and is level 1 rouge counts only as a level 1 character ... like a level 1 human (besides the level 1 human bonus feat and skill points you get the pixie -4 strength +8 dex ... so on so forth) but you start the game as a level 5 character and need level 6 xp in order to act like a level 2 character in all reguards i repeat in ALL REGUARDS 15000 XP needed to be level 2 normoly you might be thinking you get the Max rank feats ability bonus ... nope your a level 2 character you dont get them ... oh your xp is that of a level 6 character and your xp gain is like a level 6 character and you need level 7 xp to level up besides this your a level 2 character in ALL RESPECTS
runestar 05-28-07, 12:52 PM	This is false. Otherwise, this was a surprisingly accurate post. I agree. His spelling still stinks, but the clarity of his post has taken a very tremendous improvement. Note that your wealth is determined by your ECL, but apart from that, the rest is quite accurate.:)
itwasntme 05-28-07, 12:57 PM	This is false. Otherwise, this was a surprisingly accurate post. normoly from my understandment eveything you have counts as if a level 1 character has it meaning if your a level 1 character you even gain the starting gold of a level 1 character inless the race states you have class levels or something eles in thouse reguards or the DM decides to change it for you
itwasntme 05-28-07, 01:02 PM	I agree. His spelling still stinks, but the clarity of his post has taken a very tremendous improvement. Note that your wealth is determined by your ECL, but apart from that, the rest is quite accurate.:) Then your wealth is determined by your ECL i was under the understandment it was normol character welth of your level (Meaning if your level 1 you have level 1 gold) So my spellingstinks thats no reason to diss on a person or to disreguard him that eveything he states must be wrong becouse his spelling stinks even though you did not mean anything i have to ask to watch it as thouse are touchy terms on my ground
runestar 05-28-07, 01:03 PM	To be more specific, say you are a pixie rogue 1 (ECL5) starting in a 5th lv party. You have 1 HD (and all the corresponding benefits highlighted in your post above), but you start off with gear appropriate for a 5th lv character.:) If you played a powerful character in a 1st lv party, then you should start off the same as them as well. The assumption is that your ECL equals that of the average party lv, using savage progressions if need be.:)
samspectre 06-25-07, 08:10 AM	Continuing the Level Adjustment questioning... just to make somethings clear for me. The set-up. A 10th level non-human character with 3 level adjustments and 7 character-class levels: Do they get a bonus feat at ECL 3? like they normally would for advancing 3 levels (or do they have to wait until ECL 6)?. Do they get Con-based hit point bonuses for each of the 3 LAs? like they normally would for advancing 3 levels (or is that just HD based?). Do they get Ability Score adjustments at ECL 4 and ECL 8 (building upon their level adjustments) like they normally would for advancing through the first 8 levels (or do they get their second at ECL 11)? I'm guessing all the answers are NO but I'm fishing for second opinions. Thanks!
Morwen 06-25-07, 11:49 AM	Continuing the Level Adjustment questioning... just to make somethings clear for me. The set-up. A 10th level non-human character with 3 level adjustments and 7 character-class levels: Do they get a bonus feat at ECL 3? like they normally would for advancing 3 levels (or do they have to wait until ECL 6)?. Do they get Con-based hit point bonuses for each of the 3 LAs? like they normally would for advancing 3 levels (or is that just HD based?). Do they get Ability Score adjustments at ECL 4 and ECL 8 (building upon their level adjustments) like they normally would for advancing through the first 8 levels (or do they get their second at ECL 11)? I'm guessing all the answers are NO but I'm fishing for second opinions. Thanks! The answer to all questions is "no". All three are based on actual HD, which level adjustment doesn't provide. This also counts for skill points.
Jelik 06-25-07, 01:59 PM	none of this really seems to balance out correctly to me. Drow Vs Human assuming you are starting the game out at level 3 and both pick fighter. you gain enough exp to hit level 10. Does the Drow ever feel he is as strong as the human? Does the drow racials really outweigh 2 feats 1 skill point per level +4 (+int) skill points, 2 attack bonus (esp think at ECLs 6-7,11-12,16-17) 2 D10 +con health
zae 06-25-07, 09:17 PM	none of this really seems to balance out correctly to me. Drow Vs Human assuming you are starting the game out at level 3 and both pick fighter. you gain enough exp to hit level 10. Does the Drow ever feel he is as strong as the human? Does the drow racials really outweigh 2 feats 1 skill point per level +4 (+int) skill points, 2 attack bonus (esp think at ECLs 6-7,11-12,16-17) 2 D10 +con health Oh, none of it is actually balanced, almost nothing is worth the full LA given to them by WotC. In some cases it's because they didn't have time to playtest the race (in all fairness, there are bajillions of these monsters, it'd take forever and a half) so they guessed. In other cases, it was a matter of "Well, it's better than a +0, but not as good as a +1. But +0 is overpowered. Call it +1" and in other cases it's "We don't want people to play this. Add a couple of points of LA." But this thread isn't really about whether LA is fair or balanced, it's really about how the system is implemented. As for working out a proper, fair LA, it's really a matter of "Each group does it on a case by case basis, relative to the rest of the group, and tries to work out an even balance." - just the same way they'd tweak any other rule that wasn't working for them.