Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Akeron 11-07-07, 08:41 AM	hi, My name is José and I m writting from Puerto Rico.A while ago we were discussing the stacking of ECL pluses to character level on monsters description that may be used as character races. Well as you know the ogre mage have the following statistics at character creation include 5HD from 5 levels of gigant , but it also states that it has an ECL of + 7. To my understanding an 1st level sorcerer ogre mage would be effctively a 8th level character , thus ECL+7 is added to the character level. A friend of mine disagrees he says that the 1st level ogre mage is a 13th level character...because he adds thos 5HD(giant levels ) to the 1st level ogre mage(ECL +7)sorcerer . Who s right? In my opinion we just have to use the ECL plus included on the description which is enough penalty.Basicly +5 to the ECL for those 5 hD and +2 for the abilities of flight and regneration...for a total of a +7 penalty to the ECL at character creation. Att Akeron **************** Ogre Mages As Characters Ogre mage characters possess the following racial traits. +10 Strength, +6 Constitution, +4 Intelligence, +4 Wisdom, +6 Charisma. Large size. -1 penalty to Armor Class, -1 penalty on attack rolls, -4 penalty on Hide checks, +4 bonus on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits double those of Medium characters. Space/Reach: 10 feet/10 feet. An ogre mage’s base land speed is 40 feet. It also has a fly speed of 40 feet (good). Darkvision: Ogre mages can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Racial Hit Dice: An ogre mage begins with five levels of giant, which provide 5d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +3, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +4, Ref +1, and Will +1. Racial Skills: An ogre mage’s giant levels give it skill points equal to 8 × (2 + Int modifier [minimum 1]). Its class skills are Concentration, Listen, Spellcraft, and Spot. Racial Feats: An ogre mage’s giant levels give it two feats. +5 natural armor bonus. Special Attacks (see above): Spell-like abilities. Special Qualities (see above): Regeneration 5, spell resistance 19. Automatic Languages: Common, Giant. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Goblin, Infernal, Orc. Favored Class: Sorcerer. Level adjustment +7.
runestar 11-07-07, 08:47 AM	Your friend is correct. An ogre mage is ECL12 (5 racial HD, LA+7), and you need to be lv13 before you can take your 1st class lv. Stinks, right? Even at ECL7, it isn't all that stellar...
BugHunter 11-07-07, 08:59 AM	The only way to play an ogre mage at lower levels is to use the Savage Species progression. Since the formula for ECL= LA + RHD + class levels.
Akeron 11-07-07, 09:23 AM	Indeed it sucks....but modifying it so that you don t have to use those 5HD , then it would only count the ECL+7.But then if the ECL+7 in part is based on those 5HD, ignoring the 5HD and starting as a regular 1d4 Sor would suck anyway but the ECL would be lower too. what do you guys think? Ake
Akeron 11-07-07, 09:25 AM	I just like the really magical nature of the ogre mage and the concept similar to the asian Oni. Ake
Orenmir 11-07-07, 10:11 AM	Indeed it sucks....but modifying it so that you don t have to use those 5HD , then it would only count the ECL+7.But then if the ECL+7 in part is based on those 5HD, ignoring the 5HD and starting as a regular 1d4 Sor would suck anyway but the ECL would be lower too. what do you guys think? Ake Unfortunately, you can't just drop the RHD and call it good. The RHD are considered when coming up with the LA. Ogre Mage is meant to be a very high level character -- Monster, NPC, or PC. It is not designed to be played at low levels. I had the same dismay when wanting to play a Stone Giant as a PC -- the LA and RHD were ever higher! The solution is to try to homebrew something more watered down and playable at low levels. Threefists has a template for Half Ogre Mage on this thread: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=926814
Akeron 11-07-07, 10:50 AM	thanks I will check it out....Ogre mage life is tough, lets try the progeny then. Ake
Captain_Kobold 11-07-07, 08:36 PM	Indeed it sucks....but modifying it so that you don t have to use those 5HD , then it would only count the ECL+7.But then if the ECL+7 in part is based on those 5HD, ignoring the 5HD and starting as a regular 1d4 Sor would suck anyway but the ECL would be lower too. what do you guys think? Ake OK. Just to get the Terminology right: its an LA of +7. The ECL is 12 plus whatever class levels the character has. Unfortunately, if you were to remove those 5 racial Giant Hit dice, the LA should actually increase. The Giant hit dice are sub-par compared to class levels. Thus, an ogre mage with 5 class levels instead of 5 racial hit dive would have the same ECL, but be far more powerful. The LA of +7 is assuming that the "drag factor" of the racial hit dice is present. If you are more interested in the concept of the ogre mage, there might be an Oni race in the Oriental adventures book that could be used as a player race instead. Does anyone who has that book have any ideas?
runestar 11-07-07, 09:15 PM	To be fair, I find the LA+7 utterly inflated and an inaccurate reflection of how strong it is supposed to be. I think a LA of +4 max would suffice, for a final ECL of 9.
risner 11-08-07, 02:22 PM	Ogre Mages As Characters Racial Hit Dice: An ogre mage begins with five levels of giant, which provide 5d8 Hit Dice Favored Class: Sorcerer. Level adjustment +7. 1st level Sorcerer Ogre Magi is ECL 13 1+5+7 = 13 As for removing the racial HD, you can't.
imakuni67 11-09-07, 03:37 PM	As for removing the racial HD, you can't. Nor should you. Atleast it gives you all simple and martial weapons, get's you into spellsword or eldritch knight faster hehe... To be fair, I find the LA+7 utterly inflated and an inaccurate reflection of how strong it is supposed to be. I think a LA of +4 max would suffice, for a final ECL of 9. SR 19 (Darn good) Regeneration 5 (Huge) Flight (this is huge, especially with Regeneration too) Net +30 stats How should that be +4?
Threefists 11-10-07, 06:57 PM	Just to throw my hat into the ring ((Thank you for remembering my thread Orenmir!)), there is the 'new' Ogre Mage found in Design and Development. I'll go and see if I can pull it up for you and give you a link. They've reworked our beloved Ogre Mage, adding a HD, replacing some of the spell-like abilities and replacing Regeneration with Fast Healing. Currently juggling the Half Ogre Mage between +3 and +4 at the moment. If you would like, I'll post both 'variants' to you and you and your DM can sort out between you which one you would prefer? Edit: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060721a hope that helps! ((I'm sorry, I forgot the HTML code for these boards. Just Copy the above text and run a search for it, or, for greater ease, just type, 'Ogre Mage' into the search bar of this thread. It's the very first thread that pops up!
runestar 11-10-07, 09:18 PM	SR 19 (Darn good) Regeneration 5 (Huge) Flight (this is huge, especially with Regeneration too) Net +30 stats How should that be +4? How is that ECL12? I would play a lv12 sorc or fighter over this anyday.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 11-10-07, 09:46 PM	Nor should you. Atleast it gives you all simple and martial weapons, get's you into spellsword or eldritch knight faster hehe... SR 19 (Darn good) Regeneration 5 (Huge) Flight (this is huge, especially with Regeneration too) Net +30 stats How should that be +4? Because it comes with FIVE sucky levels of Giant. That's why.
DragonicHeritage 11-12-07, 12:15 AM	Alone an Ogre mage sucks, I'll give you that. BUT in a party? AWESOME They have infinite flight at will, SR, HUGE stat bonuses, Polymorph, natural armour, regeneration, and still lots more! Sure, straight up fight against a fighter or wizard is bound to go horrible... But so would a commoner vs a cat...
josephbt 11-12-07, 06:46 AM	Alone an Ogre mage sucks, I'll give you that. BUT in a party? AWESOME They have infinite flight at will, SR, HUGE stat bonuses, Polymorph, natural armour, regeneration, and still lots more! Awesome?? In what way? How do any of his abilities help a party? Please give me a situation in which you'd rather have a level 1 Ogre Mage/(insert character here) than a 12th level any other character, even a monk.
Captain_Kobold 11-12-07, 07:53 AM	Bear in mind that Regeneration is a huge bonus. Its not the extra 5 HP/round, (Although that is nice). Its simply that unless you are fighting one of the limited selection of monsters that can employ a significant amount of fire or acid damage, the character cannot be killed. In a party, it is likely to have a couple of resist energy spells on it for many fights. Its incredibly hard to kill. Particularly since it will have level-appropriate magic items in use. The system is balanced to assume that the race will utilise (or abuse) all of its abilities in the most effective way possible. Thus the presence og the Ogre Mage will mean that the entire party will start every encounter invisible (with no use of party resources). This first strike capability skews entire scenarios towards the party. Think of a party using hit-and-run tactics. The Ogre mage goes in first, absorbing spells and damage, while the casters and rogues get off devastating initial strikes from invisibility. They then retreat, the Ogre mage regenerates, casts invisibility on the entire party again, and then they attack once more. Apart from the actual spells used in the attack, this tactic is using no party resources at all. Polymorph gives an almost foolproof scouting method. Gaseous form is also handy, whether cast on the Ogre mage or another party member.
runestar 11-12-07, 07:56 AM	From what I see, the ogre mage will be so worthless in combat that more often than not, flight and regeneration will have to be used just to keep him alive. Yeah, so he is very hard to kill, but the problem is that because his contribution is negligible, most foes will ignore him, opting to focus on meatier targets such as the spellcasters or even (shudder) the party fighter. So that part is moot (in that being hard to kill is useless if no one wants to attack you). Sr19 for ECL12 is very weak (even moreso than drow). Stat boosts only go a little way towards making up for 7 lost HD (and correspondingly hp, saves, bab, skills etc) and 5 sub-optimal giant HD. Again, can you picture this contributing anywhere near a 12th lv fighter even???
josephbt 11-12-07, 09:30 AM	Bear in mind that Regeneration is a huge bonus. Its simply that unless you are fighting one of the limited selection of monsters that can employ a significant amount of fire or acid damage, the character cannot be killed. In a party, it is likely to have a couple of resist energy spells on it for many fights. Its incredibly hard to kill. Okay, you are fighting cr12 stuff. Things deal 50-100 damage per round. That means that your regeneration does nothing. You fall down in one, maybe 2 hit, then you get up the next round, then get slammed again. And over and over again. Fire and acid mean diddly-squat if you get beaten into unconsciousness every round. And once the rest of the party gets anihilated because you didn't contribute, you can get eaten or whatever. Your Reg(5) means absolutely nothing in a battle. It's credibly hard to kill. Thus the presence og the Ogre Mage will mean that the entire party will start every encounter invisible (with no use of party resources). A 12th lvl wizzard has so many resources that casting 4 invisibility spells doesn't even register. At will abilities that suck are worse than limited ammounts of good abilities, like SoDs and such. Just look at which spells he can cast. Charm Person at DC14???? At level 12??? The Ogre mage goes in first, absorbing spells and damage, while the casters and rogues get off devastating initial strikes from invisibility. He doesn't absorb spells. He has SR19. That's 1 in 4 spells, and with his nonexisting saves, i don't see how he can survive any spell. What we have here is not even a glass canon, it's simply glass. No defenses, no attacks, nothing to contribute to a party. Compare the ogre with any of the caster classes or for that matter any of the martial adepts. It doesn't come close.
runestar 11-12-07, 10:03 AM	It is also worth noting that its polymorph ability was revised to change shape, making it less useful. Change Shape (Su) An ogre mage can assume the form of any Small, Medium, or Large humanoid or giant.