On Hobgoblins [Archive] - Wizards Community

On Hobgoblins [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
CryoSilver
06-28-07, 08:38 PM I've always been a fan of the hobgoblin as an intelligent (smart as humans, anyways), organized (LAWFUL evil) humanoid-ish race. In my homebrew setting of Iliga, the hobgoblins control their own small nation and are trading partners with traditionally "good races." However, since they aren't intended to be player characters, they lose out on new material. To that end, here's some new stuff I wrote up for 'em.

Hobgoblin Racial Traits (In Iliga)

Abilities: +2 Dex, +2 Con
Speed: 30 ft
SQ: 60 ft darkvision, +1 racial dodge bonus to AC
Skills: +4 racial bonus to Move Silently
Feats: 1 bonus feat from the fighter's list
LA: +1 (This is substantially better than a human in almost all respects)

Hobgoblin Racial Feats

Martial Society (racial)
You grew up in the military tradition of the hobgoblins; you are used to following orders and doing things in teams
Prereqs: hobgoblin, 1st level only
Benefits: You gain a +2 bonus on saves against fear effects, and grant a +3 bonus whenever you use the Aid Another action
Normal: You grant a +2 bonus when you use Aid Another

Hobgoblin Shock Trooper (racial)
You have been trained in the harsh hobgoblin schools of combat and are a brutally effective soldier
Prereqs: hobgoblin, BAB 6+, heavy armor proficiency
Benefits: You gain a +2 bonus on all Strength related combat checks (bull rush, overrun, trip, etc)

Prestige Class: Hobgoblin Shock Trooper

Pending me typing up my hand-written notes
Rerecros
06-28-07, 09:39 PM Personally, i feel hobgoblins are underpowered, you could give them what you did plus +4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks, plus your martial society feat for free.

You might want to check out the goblins of eberron, they too have their own country.
AMGriffin
06-28-07, 09:56 PM I've always been a fan of the hobgoblin as an intelligent (smart as humans, anyways), organized (LAWFUL evil) humanoid-ish race. In my homebrew setting of Iliga, the hobgoblins control their own small nation and are trading partners with traditionally "good races." However, since they aren't intended to be player characters, they lose out on new material. To that end, here's some new stuff I wrote up for 'em.

Hobgoblin Racial Traits (In Iliga)

Abilities: +2 Dex, +2 Con
Speed: 30 ft
SQ: 60 ft darkvision
Feats: 1 bonus feat from the fighter's list
LA: +1 (This is substantially better than a human in almost all respects)

Hobgoblin Racial Feats

Martial Society (racial)
You grew up in the military tradition of the hobgoblins; you are used to following orders and doing things in teams
Prereqs: hobgoblin, 1st level only
Benefits: You gain a +2 bonus on saves against fear effects, and grant a +3 bonus whenever you use the Aid Another action
Normal: You grant a +2 bonus when you use Aid Another

Hobgoblin Shock Trooper (racial)
You have been trained in the harsh hobgoblin schools of combat and are a brutally effective soldier
Prereqs: hobgoblin, BAB 6+, heavy armor proficiency
Benefits: You gain a +2 bonus on all Strength related combat checks (bull rush, overrun, trip, etc)

Prestige Class: Hobgoblin Shock Trooper

Pending me typing up my hand-written notes

Your Hobgoblin isn't quite LA+1 worthy yet. I use the following hobbo for my campaigns:

* +2 Constitution, +2 Dexterity. Hobgoblins are quick of hand creatures with notable durability.
* Hobgoblins are medium sized humanoids with the goblin subtype.
* Hobgoblin base land speed is 40 feet.
* Darkvision out to 60 feet.
* +4 racial bonus on move silently checks.
* +1 Natural armor bonus.
* +2 racial bonus craft checks related to weapon and armor smithing.
* +1 bonus on attack rolls against elves.
* Bonus feat: Endurance.
* +2 racial bonus on knowledge (war) checks.
* Automatic languages: Common, Goblin Bonus languages: Dwarven, Elven, Giant, Gnoll, Orc, Undercommon
* Favored Class: Fighter
* LA: +1
CryoSilver
06-28-07, 10:15 PM Well, compared to a human, it loses out on 1 skill point per level and feat choices to gain a net +4 to abilities and darkvision.
Rerecros
06-28-07, 10:23 PM But they are LA+1 and thats a real pain, +2 to 2 abilities is nice, but they need some smaller abilities to fill them out a little better. MM hobos are meant to be weak, not as bad as orcs and half-orcs though.
RobbyPants
06-29-07, 01:43 PM But they are LA+1 and thats a real pain, +2 to 2 abilities is nice, but they need some smaller abilities to fill them out a little better. MM hobos are meant to be weak, not as bad as orcs and half-orcs though.
Agreed. I feel they need more than what's statted up in the OP.

I've run the MM version as LA +0 in my game. If you're a fan of yabathewhat's feature points (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=667683), they are ranked about with gnomes and dwarves.

I have no problem with them being a LA +1 race, but I think they need to be worth it. :)
AMGriffin
06-29-07, 04:59 PM If you want LA+0 Hobgoblins, give them a wisdom penalty.

I honestly prefer them as LA+1, it gives more room for flavor and abilities.
CryoSilver
06-29-07, 10:22 PM I am avoiding penalizing any of their mental scores: hobgoblins in Iliga are just as smart, perceptive and charismatic as humans.

I'm throwing in a +1 racial dodge bonus to AC.
sensestaker
06-29-07, 10:51 PM Hobgoblins are probably my favorite race to play. They're smart (well, at least not dumb), martial (always important to me) and have good ability scores (CON boosts are always good and with the DEX bonus I can put more points into STR). And best of all, realistically only worth an LA of +0, at least in the opinion of myself and the other people I play with. Admittedly they're a strong LA +0, but to weak to qualify as a +1, we think. Hooray for houserules. :D
Willie the Duck
06-30-07, 01:34 AM It is hard to make them la +0, but a +1 la is such a burden that you can load them up with goodies. give them an extra d6 sneak attack, since fighter/rogue seems to sum them up so well, yet many don't take levels of rogue. bonuses to spot, search, listen, move silently, hide, sense motive, or survival all add to the 'cagy warrior' mystique.
Kradlo
06-30-07, 01:47 AM Read the Slayer's Guide to Hobgoblins sometime; it gave me a fresh perspective on what I used to think of as a boring race. Hobgoblins are the militaristic mavens in my campaign.

A recent encounter between five PCs against a hobgoblin marshal and a dozen goblins ended in a route for the PCs: two dead, one captured, and two running with their tails between their legs (quite literally in the case of the druid shapeshifter).
runestar
06-30-07, 01:58 AM You could just take away their 1st lv feat and make them LA+0...
SilverFoxKnows
06-30-07, 12:16 PM I just ruled them at LA +0 because Dwarves, Gnomes and Halfling get a lot of stuff and they're still LA +0. I've made a few different Hob Kingdoms. The largest is the "classic" Hob- orderly and warlike. This is the kingdom most outsiders think of when they talk about Hobs. A smaller kingdom of horsemen. A smaller kingdom specializing in seige engineering. One that fell to the Orcs. One run by "War Widows". I've started working on Duchies within the Kingdoms, as well. In my world the Hobs are not just monsters, they are a race like any other.
Lecen_of_Mitran
06-30-07, 12:35 PM I would make them LA +0 with the following changes:

+2 str and -2 dex.

+2 con and -2 car.

Strong, powerfull, heavy, slow, etc...
Willie the Duck
06-30-07, 09:48 PM I would make them LA +0 with the following changes:

+2 str and -2 dex.

+2 con and -2 car.

Strong, powerfull, heavy, slow, etc...

heavy and slow? Hobgoblins? Are we reading the same manuals?
Kelmourne
07-01-07, 12:43 AM You could always just rename Half-Orcs Hobgoblins and call it a day(Because nobody wants to imagine an orc in bed with a human).
Rerecros
07-01-07, 12:49 AM You could always just rename Half-Orcs Hobgoblins and call it a day(Because nobody wants to imagine an orc in bed with a human).

:yuck: even with the LA, your better off playing a hobgoblin than a half-orc.
pukunui
07-01-07, 01:11 AM Just thought I'd throw this in (because I literally just discovered it) but the e-Tools programmers seemed to think that hobgoblins have no LA and that their racial stats are +2 STR +2 DEX +4 CON -2 WIS -2 CHA.

Annoying if you want to use e-Tools for an actual MM 3.5 hobgoblin, but I wonder if those racial adjustments are actually balanced at LA +0.

Any thoughts?
Rerecros
07-01-07, 01:17 AM Balanced for LA+0? not even close.
pukunui
07-01-07, 02:28 AM Balanced for LA+0? not even close.
Didn't think so.

I guess CMP screwed up pretty badly with the hobbo (I find e-Tools to generally be pretty good. I don't like how you can't edit the races though ...).
BrotherDog
07-04-07, 07:53 AM I just ruled them at LA +0 because Dwarves, Gnomes and Halfling get a lot of stuff and they're still LA +0. I've made a few different Hob Kingdoms. The largest is the "classic" Hob- orderly and warlike. This is the kingdom most outsiders think of when they talk about Hobs. A smaller kingdom of horsemen. A smaller kingdom specializing in seige engineering. One that fell to the Orcs. One run by "War Widows". I've started working on Duchies within the Kingdoms, as well. In my world the Hobs are not just monsters, they are a race like any other.

When you compare them to everything a Human gets it's even worse. When used as they are in the MM Hobgoblins might wind up with a +0.35 LA compared to humans. Having a +2 to 2 scores and a +4 move silently just isn't as powerful as what a human gets. I seriously consider placing a +3 LA on humans, before putting any LA on hobs.
CryoSilver
07-04-07, 08:06 PM A feat and skill points is LA +3? Interesting...
Illithid_Tentacles
07-04-07, 08:32 PM Hobgoblins are fine at LA 0. True, they get no penalties to anything, but neither do humans or half-elves. Additionally, humans get a free feat at first level, and (character level +3) free skill points, which can be distributed however you like, and favored class: any. Hobgoblins, on the other hand, get what? +2 Dex, +2 Con, and +4 to Move Silently. Yeah... That sure justifies losing a level.

Hobgoblins are powerful for LA 0, yes, but so are humans. Hell, humans are, except for a few specific types of character, better.
Vrael
07-04-07, 08:32 PM A feat and skill points is LA +3? Interesting...

He's just overstating his point, that's all. If I'm reading this right, all he means is it would be more ludicrous for hobbos to be LA +1 than for humans to be LA +3.
Rerecros
07-04-07, 08:40 PM +2 to two abilities is huge, it definitely prevents them from being LA+0.
Though they need some smaller abilities to round them out a little better.
Human skills essentially allow them to be treated as though their int mod is one higher for the purposes of skills only, hobos get a real bonus mod to two abilities.
AMGriffin
07-04-07, 08:50 PM Yeah, Hobgoblins are far from working at LA+0. Another idea is to remove their LA and give them one level of racial HD in humanoid.

*shrug* better then nothing.
Vrael
07-05-07, 12:21 AM +2 to two abilities is huge, it definitely prevents them from being LA+0.
Though they need some smaller abilities to round them out a little better.
Human skills essentially allow them to be treated as though their int mod is one higher for the purposes of skills only, hobos get a real bonus mod to two abilities.

Plus another feat. At low levels (where a +1 LA will matter), this is a huge deal. Even at later levels, it's a big thing.
BrotherDog
07-05-07, 04:04 AM Thanks for "getting it" Vrael, and clarifying. I seemed to have left a word or 2 out that would have caused some to come to other conclusions ;;D Ooops! D'oh!
CryoSilver
07-05-07, 07:19 AM I added the racial bonus to Move SIlently back in.
RobbyPants
07-05-07, 09:54 AM I just ruled them at LA +0 because Dwarves, Gnomes and Halfling get a lot of stuff and they're still LA +0.
That's the way I do it. I think there's a strong knee-jerk reaction in seeing the +2 bonus to different stats with no penalties. All they get in addition to this is darkvision and a bonus to Move Siliently.

Just because a bonus to an ability score is offset by a penalty doesn't mean it's balanced. From my experiences, when people make characters, they come up with the class first, and the race second. So, RP fluff aside, nobody is going to play a dwarf sorcerer, or a grey elf fighter, or a half-orc wizard. Quite simply, you look for ways to use the bonuses and hide the penalties. For this reason alone, as soon as you add +2 X, -2 Y, the race becomes more powerful. That penalty does little more than limit your class selection.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CryoSilver 06-28-07, 08:38 PM	I've always been a fan of the hobgoblin as an intelligent (smart as humans, anyways), organized (LAWFUL evil) humanoid-ish race. In my homebrew setting of Iliga, the hobgoblins control their own small nation and are trading partners with traditionally "good races." However, since they aren't intended to be player characters, they lose out on new material. To that end, here's some new stuff I wrote up for 'em. Hobgoblin Racial Traits (In Iliga) Abilities: +2 Dex, +2 Con Speed: 30 ft SQ: 60 ft darkvision, +1 racial dodge bonus to AC Skills: +4 racial bonus to Move Silently Feats: 1 bonus feat from the fighter's list LA: +1 (This is substantially better than a human in almost all respects) Hobgoblin Racial Feats Martial Society (racial) You grew up in the military tradition of the hobgoblins; you are used to following orders and doing things in teams Prereqs: hobgoblin, 1st level only Benefits: You gain a +2 bonus on saves against fear effects, and grant a +3 bonus whenever you use the Aid Another action Normal: You grant a +2 bonus when you use Aid Another Hobgoblin Shock Trooper (racial) You have been trained in the harsh hobgoblin schools of combat and are a brutally effective soldier Prereqs: hobgoblin, BAB 6+, heavy armor proficiency Benefits: You gain a +2 bonus on all Strength related combat checks (bull rush, overrun, trip, etc) Prestige Class: Hobgoblin Shock Trooper Pending me typing up my hand-written notes
Rerecros 06-28-07, 09:39 PM	Personally, i feel hobgoblins are underpowered, you could give them what you did plus +4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks, plus your martial society feat for free. You might want to check out the goblins of eberron, they too have their own country.
AMGriffin 06-28-07, 09:56 PM	I've always been a fan of the hobgoblin as an intelligent (smart as humans, anyways), organized (LAWFUL evil) humanoid-ish race. In my homebrew setting of Iliga, the hobgoblins control their own small nation and are trading partners with traditionally "good races." However, since they aren't intended to be player characters, they lose out on new material. To that end, here's some new stuff I wrote up for 'em. Hobgoblin Racial Traits (In Iliga) Abilities: +2 Dex, +2 Con Speed: 30 ft SQ: 60 ft darkvision Feats: 1 bonus feat from the fighter's list LA: +1 (This is substantially better than a human in almost all respects) Hobgoblin Racial Feats Martial Society (racial) You grew up in the military tradition of the hobgoblins; you are used to following orders and doing things in teams Prereqs: hobgoblin, 1st level only Benefits: You gain a +2 bonus on saves against fear effects, and grant a +3 bonus whenever you use the Aid Another action Normal: You grant a +2 bonus when you use Aid Another Hobgoblin Shock Trooper (racial) You have been trained in the harsh hobgoblin schools of combat and are a brutally effective soldier Prereqs: hobgoblin, BAB 6+, heavy armor proficiency Benefits: You gain a +2 bonus on all Strength related combat checks (bull rush, overrun, trip, etc) Prestige Class: Hobgoblin Shock Trooper Pending me typing up my hand-written notes Your Hobgoblin isn't quite LA+1 worthy yet. I use the following hobbo for my campaigns: * +2 Constitution, +2 Dexterity. Hobgoblins are quick of hand creatures with notable durability. * Hobgoblins are medium sized humanoids with the goblin subtype. * Hobgoblin base land speed is 40 feet. * Darkvision out to 60 feet. * +4 racial bonus on move silently checks. * +1 Natural armor bonus. * +2 racial bonus craft checks related to weapon and armor smithing. * +1 bonus on attack rolls against elves. * Bonus feat: Endurance. * +2 racial bonus on knowledge (war) checks. * Automatic languages: Common, Goblin Bonus languages: Dwarven, Elven, Giant, Gnoll, Orc, Undercommon * Favored Class: Fighter * LA: +1
CryoSilver 06-28-07, 10:15 PM	Well, compared to a human, it loses out on 1 skill point per level and feat choices to gain a net +4 to abilities and darkvision.
Rerecros 06-28-07, 10:23 PM	But they are LA+1 and thats a real pain, +2 to 2 abilities is nice, but they need some smaller abilities to fill them out a little better. MM hobos are meant to be weak, not as bad as orcs and half-orcs though.
RobbyPants 06-29-07, 01:43 PM	But they are LA+1 and thats a real pain, +2 to 2 abilities is nice, but they need some smaller abilities to fill them out a little better. MM hobos are meant to be weak, not as bad as orcs and half-orcs though. Agreed. I feel they need more than what's statted up in the OP. I've run the MM version as LA +0 in my game. If you're a fan of yabathewhat's feature points (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=667683), they are ranked about with gnomes and dwarves. I have no problem with them being a LA +1 race, but I think they need to be worth it. :)
AMGriffin 06-29-07, 04:59 PM	If you want LA+0 Hobgoblins, give them a wisdom penalty. I honestly prefer them as LA+1, it gives more room for flavor and abilities.
CryoSilver 06-29-07, 10:22 PM	I am avoiding penalizing any of their mental scores: hobgoblins in Iliga are just as smart, perceptive and charismatic as humans. I'm throwing in a +1 racial dodge bonus to AC.
sensestaker 06-29-07, 10:51 PM	Hobgoblins are probably my favorite race to play. They're smart (well, at least not dumb), martial (always important to me) and have good ability scores (CON boosts are always good and with the DEX bonus I can put more points into STR). And best of all, realistically only worth an LA of +0, at least in the opinion of myself and the other people I play with. Admittedly they're a strong LA +0, but to weak to qualify as a +1, we think. Hooray for houserules. :D
Willie the Duck 06-30-07, 01:34 AM	It is hard to make them la +0, but a +1 la is such a burden that you can load them up with goodies. give them an extra d6 sneak attack, since fighter/rogue seems to sum them up so well, yet many don't take levels of rogue. bonuses to spot, search, listen, move silently, hide, sense motive, or survival all add to the 'cagy warrior' mystique.
Kradlo 06-30-07, 01:47 AM	Read the Slayer's Guide to Hobgoblins sometime; it gave me a fresh perspective on what I used to think of as a boring race. Hobgoblins are the militaristic mavens in my campaign. A recent encounter between five PCs against a hobgoblin marshal and a dozen goblins ended in a route for the PCs: two dead, one captured, and two running with their tails between their legs (quite literally in the case of the druid shapeshifter).
runestar 06-30-07, 01:58 AM	You could just take away their 1st lv feat and make them LA+0...
SilverFoxKnows 06-30-07, 12:16 PM	I just ruled them at LA +0 because Dwarves, Gnomes and Halfling get a lot of stuff and they're still LA +0. I've made a few different Hob Kingdoms. The largest is the "classic" Hob- orderly and warlike. This is the kingdom most outsiders think of when they talk about Hobs. A smaller kingdom of horsemen. A smaller kingdom specializing in seige engineering. One that fell to the Orcs. One run by "War Widows". I've started working on Duchies within the Kingdoms, as well. In my world the Hobs are not just monsters, they are a race like any other.
Lecen_of_Mitran 06-30-07, 12:35 PM	I would make them LA +0 with the following changes: +2 str and -2 dex. +2 con and -2 car. Strong, powerfull, heavy, slow, etc...
Willie the Duck 06-30-07, 09:48 PM	I would make them LA +0 with the following changes: +2 str and -2 dex. +2 con and -2 car. Strong, powerfull, heavy, slow, etc... heavy and slow? Hobgoblins? Are we reading the same manuals?
Kelmourne 07-01-07, 12:43 AM	You could always just rename Half-Orcs Hobgoblins and call it a day(Because nobody wants to imagine an orc in bed with a human).
Rerecros 07-01-07, 12:49 AM	You could always just rename Half-Orcs Hobgoblins and call it a day(Because nobody wants to imagine an orc in bed with a human). :yuck: even with the LA, your better off playing a hobgoblin than a half-orc.
pukunui 07-01-07, 01:11 AM	Just thought I'd throw this in (because I literally just discovered it) but the e-Tools programmers seemed to think that hobgoblins have no LA and that their racial stats are +2 STR +2 DEX +4 CON -2 WIS -2 CHA. Annoying if you want to use e-Tools for an actual MM 3.5 hobgoblin, but I wonder if those racial adjustments are actually balanced at LA +0. Any thoughts?
Rerecros 07-01-07, 01:17 AM	Balanced for LA+0? not even close.
pukunui 07-01-07, 02:28 AM	Balanced for LA+0? not even close. Didn't think so. I guess CMP screwed up pretty badly with the hobbo (I find e-Tools to generally be pretty good. I don't like how you can't edit the races though ...).
BrotherDog 07-04-07, 07:53 AM	I just ruled them at LA +0 because Dwarves, Gnomes and Halfling get a lot of stuff and they're still LA +0. I've made a few different Hob Kingdoms. The largest is the "classic" Hob- orderly and warlike. This is the kingdom most outsiders think of when they talk about Hobs. A smaller kingdom of horsemen. A smaller kingdom specializing in seige engineering. One that fell to the Orcs. One run by "War Widows". I've started working on Duchies within the Kingdoms, as well. In my world the Hobs are not just monsters, they are a race like any other. When you compare them to everything a Human gets it's even worse. When used as they are in the MM Hobgoblins might wind up with a +0.35 LA compared to humans. Having a +2 to 2 scores and a +4 move silently just isn't as powerful as what a human gets. I seriously consider placing a +3 LA on humans, before putting any LA on hobs.
CryoSilver 07-04-07, 08:06 PM	A feat and skill points is LA +3? Interesting...
Illithid_Tentacles 07-04-07, 08:32 PM	Hobgoblins are fine at LA 0. True, they get no penalties to anything, but neither do humans or half-elves. Additionally, humans get a free feat at first level, and (character level +3) free skill points, which can be distributed however you like, and favored class: any. Hobgoblins, on the other hand, get what? +2 Dex, +2 Con, and +4 to Move Silently. Yeah... That sure justifies losing a level. Hobgoblins are powerful for LA 0, yes, but so are humans. Hell, humans are, except for a few specific types of character, better.
Vrael 07-04-07, 08:32 PM	A feat and skill points is LA +3? Interesting... He's just overstating his point, that's all. If I'm reading this right, all he means is it would be more ludicrous for hobbos to be LA +1 than for humans to be LA +3.
Rerecros 07-04-07, 08:40 PM	+2 to two abilities is huge, it definitely prevents them from being LA+0. Though they need some smaller abilities to round them out a little better. Human skills essentially allow them to be treated as though their int mod is one higher for the purposes of skills only, hobos get a real bonus mod to two abilities.
AMGriffin 07-04-07, 08:50 PM	Yeah, Hobgoblins are far from working at LA+0. Another idea is to remove their LA and give them one level of racial HD in humanoid. shrug better then nothing.
Vrael 07-05-07, 12:21 AM	+2 to two abilities is huge, it definitely prevents them from being LA+0. Though they need some smaller abilities to round them out a little better. Human skills essentially allow them to be treated as though their int mod is one higher for the purposes of skills only, hobos get a real bonus mod to two abilities. Plus another feat. At low levels (where a +1 LA will matter), this is a huge deal. Even at later levels, it's a big thing.
BrotherDog 07-05-07, 04:04 AM	Thanks for "getting it" Vrael, and clarifying. I seemed to have left a word or 2 out that would have caused some to come to other conclusions ;;D Ooops! D'oh!
CryoSilver 07-05-07, 07:19 AM	I added the racial bonus to Move SIlently back in.
RobbyPants 07-05-07, 09:54 AM	I just ruled them at LA +0 because Dwarves, Gnomes and Halfling get a lot of stuff and they're still LA +0. That's the way I do it. I think there's a strong knee-jerk reaction in seeing the +2 bonus to different stats with no penalties. All they get in addition to this is darkvision and a bonus to Move Siliently. Just because a bonus to an ability score is offset by a penalty doesn't mean it's balanced. From my experiences, when people make characters, they come up with the class first, and the race second. So, RP fluff aside, nobody is going to play a dwarf sorcerer, or a grey elf fighter, or a half-orc wizard. Quite simply, you look for ways to use the bonuses and hide the penalties. For this reason alone, as soon as you add +2 X, -2 Y, the race becomes more powerful. That penalty does little more than limit your class selection.