Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Necro_Warmunger 04-15-07, 03:14 PM	We are about to get underway in a back to basics D&D 3.5 Core Book Game, meaning core Players Handbook #1 only for possible player character Races and character classes. As secondary GM I opting to the main GM to boost the Half Orc race in the players handbook up to be fairer as to me looking the race of half orc got the bad end of deal compaired to the other playable races, excluding humans as they get other specials in skills and feats but all the other races in the handbook have a +2 to something and a -2 to something and they get all there special low light vision and certain spell immunities and or bonuses, spot check abilities, etc., etc. The half Orc has "no" real special abilities except dark vision but all the others have some of vision also and as compared to all the other core book races and the half orc has "two" -2's to there attributes and one +2 to an attribute, compared to all the players hand races which all have a +2 to something and a only one -2 to something, if one was trying to make the Half Orc more fare for those who may opt to play a Half Orc to make the race more comparable, does anyone see a problem if we're trying to be fare to either add a Co bonus of +2 or lessan the two -2's to -1's. I truly believe in all fairness the Half Orc is under the other playable races in the players handbook on a fairness level but this could be me. So could there be an argument if we're trying to be fare? Thanks
Scribbler 04-15-07, 03:25 PM	Don't change the penalties to -1. Those modifiers should always be even so that they always change the ability modifier. A half-orc player could put odd scores in Int and Cha and the penalties would have no effect (unless those are the abilities that the player increases at level ups, but that's unlikely if he/she wants to play a half-orc). If you want to reduce the penalties, drop one of them completely instead. Full orcs only have a -2 penalty in each (and in Wisdom too), so only using one of the penalties seems reasonable.
AMGriffin 04-15-07, 04:07 PM	Simplest fix that makes the half-orc playable: No more intelligence penalty, favored class: Any. That's the quickest and simplest half-orc fix I can think of. You can still had a few saves or skill bonuses of course. While we're bringing up the half-orc, we should bring up the half-elf too. They're even more useless then half-orcs...it's just more well hidden.
SpoonyBard 04-15-07, 04:09 PM	It's STILL better than the half-elf. And +2 str goes a long way. Melee guys rarely care about mental stats anyway.
Necro_Warmunger 04-15-07, 05:44 PM	Don't change the penalties to -1. Those modifiers should always be even so that they always change the ability modifier. A half-orc player could put odd scores in Int and Cha and the penalties would have no effect (unless those are the abilities that the player increases at level ups, but that's unlikely if he/she wants to play a half-orc). If you want to reduce the penalties, drop one of them completely instead. Full orcs only have a -2 penalty in each (and in Wisdom too), so only using one of the penalties seems reasonable. Gotcha
Necro_Warmunger 04-15-07, 05:54 PM	Simplest fix that makes the half-orc playable: No more intelligence penalty, favored class: Any. That's the quickest and simplest half-orc fix I can think of. You can still had a few saves or skill bonuses of course. While we're bringing up the half-orc, we should bring up the half-elf too. They're even more useless then half-orcs...it's just more well hidden. The IQ is one possible but I'm seeing how many replies come in and making a decision from there based off of the way majority goes The Half Elf does also get a bad end of the deal to any attribute bonus but they do get nothing bad and lot of specials compared to the Half Orc I guess that's why that one slipped my mind :embarrass Thanks for the input
AMGriffin 04-15-07, 05:55 PM	It's STILL better than the half-elf. And +2 str goes a long way. Melee guys rarely care about mental stats anyway. If you only care about strength, why not just play a full orc with +4 strength? Therein lies the problem with the half-orc.
Jaxgaret 04-15-07, 06:05 PM	A simple fix for the Half-Orc is to give it the additional skill points like the Human, but keep the Intelligence penalty. That way it gets as many skill points as an average race, but it is still reflected as being somewhat slow witted.
the_great_mighty_nerd 04-15-07, 06:23 PM	I genuinely have trouble comprehending the stupidity of anyone who thinks the half orc is underpowered, strength is better than int and cha: it gives bonuses to carrying capacity attack bonus and damage, the half or avoids an orcs weakness to light and gets darkvision (the better sight ability). half orcs are great melee combatants and they're the only race with a plus to strength in the PHB, they can get PRCs as if they were orcs and if they miss out on fluff abilities then so be it. the next time I hear someone say that half orcs are inferior I'm opening up a can of whupass. the same goes for fighters.
Necro_Warmunger 04-15-07, 07:23 PM	I genuinely have trouble comprehending the stupidity of anyone who thinks the half orc is underpowered, strength is better than int and cha: it gives bonuses to carrying capacity attack bonus and damage, the half or avoids an orcs weakness to light and gets darkvision (the better sight ability). half orcs are great melee combatants and they're the only race with a plus to strength in the PHB, they can get PRCs as if they were orcs and if they miss out on fluff abilities then so be it. the next time I hear someone say that half orcs are inferior I'm opening up a can of whupass. the same goes for fighters. Although your input was not constructive it does have some merrit about the vision Who said all half orcs are Fighters? I could be wrong but I don't look at it that way as I see IQ as very important as it controls skills points and helps a number skills, I don't see a +2 being that grand as you see it to compensate the two -2's, and no other traits besides vision, a +4 or +6 probably but not a +2 Secondly if the game was using other races, for example the wood elf, it has strength and dexterity bonuses but does have also to -2's to, but again way more special traits then the half orc, the half orc is less then the wood elf
AMGriffin 04-15-07, 07:37 PM	Half-orcs are underpowered and so are fighters. Whoop away! Sure, it's the only PHB race with a bonus to Strength, but NOBODY plays pure PHB anymore. If you're just using raw PHB races your half-orcs can carve out a niche as "hit things hard" character, but even then overall dwarves and humans can do just as good (if not better) in the overall barbarian and fighter roles. There's a supplement a user named K posted online called "Races of War" it offers a fairly decent half-orc. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=681572
Thief_of_Hope 04-15-07, 08:30 PM	Extra con sounds like a fun and fair fix to me. If you want a more in-depth fix, below you will find my long-time argument for what to fix about the half-orc and why. I think giving them only a single stat penalty would be good, as well as giving them something like, oh, I don't know...treating orc weapons as martial weapons instead of exotic? What a concept! No, seriously. Dwarves get their urgrosh, gnomes get their pick thingy, elves get freaking auto-proficiency with longsword, rapier, and all straight bows. What do orcs, with their obvious martial leanings, get? .......................... Darkvision. ...................... Um, yay. Go darkvision. Hit those monsters. Rawr. Orcish weapons (being the orc double axe, as well as some other weapons in supplementary readings) make sense as being a martial weapon to a race that is half orc. Give them the weapons of their green-skinned forefathers, for Gygax's sake! Give them JUST -2 Int OR -2 Cha. If you want anymore, give them a bonus to intimidate and call it a day. My dream come true would be if they were a race with +2 Str, -2 Cha, with Darkvision 60 ft, Orcish weapons as martial weapons, and a +2 or +4 to intimidate. It makes sense to me, it keeps it simple, and it actually treats the half-orcs like the other races in the PHB. Plus, the flavor is there. Half-orcs are supposed to reflect BOTH sides of their heritage, right? Isn't a lack of an intelligence penalty reflective of the cannyness half-orcs supposedly have? As half-orcs are right now, the idea that they're smarter than their full-blooded orcish brethren has no mechanical translation. Orcs and half-orcs have the same Int penalty. The charisma penalty I understand better. Furthermore, almost all of the other base races have a skill bonus of some kind or another. Half-orcs should get an Intimidate bonus not only to give them just a little more goodness, but also because it makes sense. Would you expect a half-elf to be able to make a better intimidate check than a half-orc? Well, the half-orc penalty to Cha, with no Intimidate bonus, makes it so that this is, in fact, the case. Give the half-orcs a little loving. They deserve it.
jaelis 04-15-07, 08:43 PM	Half orcs make excellent beaters as is. They're main problem is a lack of flexibility. Dropping either mental stat penalty pretty much fixes this, and giving them favored class (any) fits with the half-human theme. So I agree with AMGriffin. I would shy away from giving them anything to make them better fighter types (like a Con bonus.) They are good enough at that already.
CaptKillern 04-15-07, 09:29 PM	NOBODY plays pure PHB anymore. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=681572 Therein lies the problem. I am going to be a player in this game. The only book that is allowed for players is the PHB. Now on its own suggesting a buff to half-orcs seems innocent enough. But the reason we are playing core only was supposedly to be easier on the DM to not have to track through dozens of books and to keep things balanced. I have already said my peace on balance issues involvind just the PHB but it scares me that for an already combat geared race the way he thought to fix it was by adding another combat based attribute... +2 str, +2 con, -2 int, -2 cha? Um your playing a sorceror right? This just seems like a way to limit the other players into core races and getting to play a geared out combat beast. If Half-orcs must be fixed I would either take away the cha penalty which is less usefull than the int penalty. or just give them extra skill points as a human. Though honestly since the player will more thn likely be a fighter or barbarian anyway the -2 to int and cha are not going to hurt him that much. And if it does, why not just play a different race.
the_great_mighty_nerd 04-16-07, 01:24 AM	variant elves aren't for people to play, the designers just decided the game was to good and they were going to need to change something for version 3.6 so they could sell us the core books again and so they put in some stupid ******** races and a few stupid ******* retard ******** picked it up and thought it was a good idea, hence necro warmunger.
Clutchbone 04-16-07, 01:27 AM	Why not a Wisdom penalty, with no Int or Cha penalty? Orcs get a wisdom penalty. Int is useful for everyone, and as it relates to skill points it reflects the human side of half-orcs that has a knack for learning odd talents here and there. Cha is considered a dump stat, so only giving them a Cha penalty seems kinda overpowered. Let's just let the half-orcs intimidate without a penalty. A wisdom penalty seems to make sense, as it reflects their stubbornness and tendency to make bad choices without taking away their human abilities to learn or lead. Elves get a Con penalty, so saying that giving Half-orcs a penalty to Wis will be broken because it kills their Will save won't work. And maybe it rules out clerics, but they can still be decent Favored Souls (more fitting for their orc heritage anyways - CDiv says savage species often use that class), and they can use the non-spell casting variant or something for Rangers. Thoughts?
Climhazzard 04-16-07, 07:22 AM	Why not a Wisdom penalty, with no Int or Cha penalty? Orcs get a wisdom penalty. Int is useful for everyone, and as it relates to skill points it reflects the human side of half-orcs that has a knack for learning odd talents here and there. Cha is considered a dump stat, so only giving them a Cha penalty seems kinda overpowered. Let's just let the half-orcs intimidate without a penalty. A wisdom penalty seems to make sense, as it reflects their stubbornness and tendency to make bad choices without taking away their human abilities to learn or lead. Elves get a Con penalty, so saying that giving Half-orcs a penalty to Wis will be broken because it kills their Will save won't work. And maybe it rules out clerics, but they can still be decent Favored Souls (more fitting for their orc heritage anyways - CDiv says savage species often use that class), and they can use the non-spell casting variant or something for Rangers. Thoughts? I already do this in my games and it works wonders. I cannot begin to tell the horrible consequences of when your tank fails a Will save, and how often that happens. Wisdom is the most directly important mental stat for a melee class in Core D&D, and even games with splatbooks.
runestar 04-16-07, 07:27 AM	They are fine as melee combatants(a str bonus means more to them than int or cha), only drawback being that it is harder to qualify for feats like expertise and improved trip which have prereqs of int13. Unfortunately, that also means they are pretty much constrained into the role of barb/fighter. However, they fulfill this role quite well. I am not sure if that can be construed as "underpowered"...:confused:
vegetalss4 04-16-07, 08:07 AM	Extra con sounds like a fun and fair fix to me. If you want a more in-depth fix, below you will find my long-time argument for what to fix about the half-orc and why. I think giving them only a single stat penalty would be good, as well as giving them something like, oh, I don't know...treating orc weapons as martial weapons instead of exotic? What a concept! No, seriously. Dwarves get their urgrosh, gnomes get their pick thingy, elves get freaking auto-proficiency with longsword, rapier, and all straight bows. What do orcs, with their obvious martial leanings, get? they do actuly get the orc double axe
alangriffith 04-16-07, 08:21 AM	they do actuly get the orc double axe erm... no. Just double-checked in my 3.5 PHB. Nothing in the half-orc entry about weapon proficiency for double axe. In the equipment chapter the weapon is indeed exotic, with no note about orcish proficiency. Poor orcs, they have no racial proficiencies :-(
Leilond 04-16-07, 08:39 AM	I think half-orc aren't "underpowered" but simply "without flexibilty" Can be good fighters, barbarians and monks Can be a decent melee based cleric Can be a decent rogue (dark vision is GREAT for rogue!!!!) They're not underpowered if you want to play one of this classes
AMGriffin 04-16-07, 09:09 AM	I highly question the statement half-orcs make good rogues. Darkvision is nice...BUT half-orcs have in intelligence penalty, which means they'll be lacking skill points, and the charisma penalty hurts too, how you say? Use Magic Device. Also, just for reference, here's the half-orc I use: HALF-ORCS • +2 Strength, -2 Charisma. Half-orcs are strong, but tend to be brooding and sullen loners. • Medium: As Medium creatures, half-orcs have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. • Half-orc base land speed is 30 feet. •Darkvision: Half-orcs can see in the dark up to 30 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and half-orcs can function just fine with no light at all. • Half-orcs may select one free +2/+2 skill bonus feat. Half-orcs are adaptable and diverse in their talents, much like their human parent. • +2 morale bonus on saves against fear or fear-like effects • +1 racial bonus on saves against disease. • Mixed Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-orc is considered an orc and a human. • Automatic Languages: Common and Orc. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Draconic, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, and Abyssal. • Favored Class: Barbarian, ranger or fighter. A multiclass half-orc’s barbarian, ranger or fighter (whichever is highest) class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty.
Druid318 04-25-07, 10:26 PM	I second the +2 STR -2 WIS. This seems like it would match a bull headed barbarian prone type of race. It hurts them in both the saves and in divine class selection.
Archangel_Tyrael 04-25-07, 10:41 PM	I second the +2 STR -2 WIS. This seems like it would match a bull headed barbarian prone type of race. It hurts them in both the saves and in divine class selection. But what about the fact that orcs are usually barbaric and live in some sort of wilderness setting? I'm not sure if a penalty to Survival is that great (Listen too, if we're talking about barbarians).
MikeN 04-25-07, 10:42 PM	Just allow the half-orc (and half-elf) as written in the PHB. And, when nobody chooses either race, you don't have to worry about what to give them to "balance" :P
SilverFoxKnows 04-25-07, 10:55 PM	Here's my two coppers on the Half-Orc. Since you are using only PHB races the lowly Half-Orc has a couple of points that set it apart. It is the only race to get a bonus to Str. This is obviously a good thing for Barbarians and Fighters. But it's still a good thing for Rangers, Rogues and Clerics. It is also the only race to get Darkvision and a 30 move. Only the Dwarf can see underground without a light source but they're saddled with a 20 move. Stonecunning is cool but a 20 move has been a serious drawback in combat in our games. No penalty to Wis allows you to be a Cleric or Druid. Your turning attempts and wild empathy won't be the best but you will pack a whollop in melee. And if you go for a martial class your Will save won't totally be in the chamber pot. And a decent Wis means your Spot and Listen might keep you from getting abushed. The downside is the penalty to Int and Cha. They will make poor Wizards, Sorcerers and Bards. Rogues and Rangers will suffer from the loss of skill points. Not the best race for a skill monkey but Rogues and Rangers have other talents besides skills. Also you could focus on skills that aren't Int/ Cha dependent. Jump, Climb, Hide, Survival, Sense Motive. I'm rather fond of the Half-Orc. If you're a Wizard kind of guy they probably won't do much for you. But Darkvision, full move and no Wis penalty work for me.
Archangel_Tyrael 04-25-07, 10:58 PM	Just allow the half-orc (and half-elf) as written in the PHB. And, when nobody chooses either race, you don't have to worry about what to give them to "balance" :P I agree...any smart player would choose the Dwarf anyway. :P
gullas 04-26-07, 01:50 PM	I think half-orc aren't "underpowered" but simply "without flexibilty" Can be good fighters, barbarians and monks Can be a decent melee based cleric Can be a decent rogue (dark vision is GREAT for rogue!!!!) They're not underpowered if you want to play one of this classes yup... one of the most badass I've ever seen was a Half-orc barbarian lvl7 and rouge lvl 1(he diped into rouge so he could sneak attack an also cause he wanted to do something flippy :D ) he never vent into rage and was beating the crap out of every living thing that the DM came with :)
Myriddian 04-26-07, 02:18 PM	Simplest fix that makes the half-orc playable: No more intelligence penalty, favored class: Any. That's the quickest and simplest half-orc fix I can think of. You can still had a few saves or skill bonuses of course. This is the perfect solution. :clap:
Nat_20 04-26-07, 02:30 PM	I myself have never been a big fan of the half-orc, a race of people that a good number have been born by raiding human females doesn't scream USE ME!!!
Argo 04-26-07, 03:52 PM	I agree...any smart player would choose the Dwarf anyway. :P Ugh, Dwarf? No way am I playing a race with a 20 foot move speed. I consider myself a pretty smart player, and all the bonuses in the world aren't going to convince me to play a race that can't keep up when the heat is on. As far as the Half-Orc goes, their penalties are pretty severe. But here's a thought for a quick fix: 40' move speed. Sure, that makes them even MORE attractive to players of Barbarians and Fighters, but it also softens the blow from their Int and Cha penalties to make them more attractive to everyone else, especially Rogues and Rangers. Even someone playing a Wizard would give the Half-Orc a second glance if it meant having a 40 foot move. They'd probably end up picking a race with no Int penalty, but you haven't utterly ruled it out. Also, give them a +4 to Intimidate, Auto-Proficiency in the Greataxe and treat all Racial Weapons as Martial Weapons, and you've got yourself a race.
AMGriffin 04-26-07, 04:59 PM	The 40' Base landspeed is a no go for me. First off, why would they be moving around that fast? Orcs don't have it, nor do humans...so where are they gonna inherit the ability? It makes them ridiculously powerful in classes they're already pretty good at.
Argo 04-26-07, 06:10 PM	Well... yeah... But I like things that move fast. EDIT: I read about that goblinoid that has a 60' move, and almost wet myself. Moves... so... fast...
Threefists 04-27-07, 10:44 AM	*sigh* I love/hate these threads....Love the Half-Orc (who doesn't love the bastard-nobody-likes-but-ends-up-needing-anyway character concept?) as a Race and both a RP tool. Totally [censor] with the Elves and have a Half-Orc that can out-shoot their best in a archery competition...look on the Elf Fighter's face....priceless. Variant A) Retains all Half-Orc abilites and stat +/- in addition to: Handle Animal and Sense Motive are always Class Skills. Any weapon that mentions 'Orc' in the description is considered a Martial Weapon by the Half-Orc. Reasons: Animals really don't give a flying [censored] about what race you are, thus a Half-Orc is going to generally get along well with his/her pets, and after a lifetime of getting picked on and tricked, you're going to get wise to all the little ways people can give away what they're planning, even if you are thick as a plank and about as personable as a rock. Dwarves get martial proficiency with just about everything with 'Dwarf' stacked onto the end of it. Variant B) Retains all Half-Orc abilites and stat +/- in addition to: Bonus Feat: May choose from Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will, Athletic, Alertness, Animal Affinity, Endurance, Run and Self Sufficient. Heal, Survival and Knowledge (Nature) or (Local) are always Class Skills. Reasons: Half-Orcs are generaly physical sorts, since few Humans are willing to bother educating a dim-witted Half-Breed, and Orcs consider books good only for using to get a fire going. Also, since a Half-Orc is generally a fringe member of whatever society he or she may belong to, being able to look after themselves and patch their own wounds makes Survival and Heal vital skills, and a basic knowledge of their surroundings, (Nature) if a Raised-By-Orcs type, or (Local) if a Raised-By-Cityfolk type, allows them a certain amount of leeway, since they'd often run with the rough crowd, commonly finding work in the various Thieves guilds as muscle.
Zaistars69 04-27-07, 11:21 AM	Half-Orc. +2 Str, -2 Chr 30' Move 60' darkvision +2 intimidate, Minor Scent-The half orc can remember the scent of any creature it has previously encountered with an Wis check DC: 15. This DC is modified as follows: all modifiers stack -2 if encountered more than once -2 if well known (trained with, adventured with, grew up with, etc) +2 for each 2 years since encountering within smelling range. The Half-Orc cannot track by scent as with the normal Scent ability, nor can he pin point the square a foe is in. (the scent thing is from Eberron novels, I really like the mechanic) Orc blood