Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Roman 02-21-07, 03:56 PM	I think there is a general consensus that Half-Orcs are underpowered for a core race. I share in this opinion and am looking to upgrade them. However, I do not want to remove any of their penalties, since these help make them half-orcs in the first place. I thought I might find inspiration by giving them extra stuff from Orcs, but alas orcs don't have anything else either - only light sensitivity! Should all else fail, I suppose it could be possible to give them one of the two human features: either an extra feat or the extra skill points. This, though, seems like a cop out. I would prefer that they, and indeed orcs too, have some features more in tune with the orc flavor. Any suggestions? What, if anything, have you done to upgrade half-orcs and orcs in your campaigns?
gullas 02-21-07, 04:01 PM	reminds me on the half-orc mutation thread:thinks: .....bah just use that:)
Grey_Mage 02-21-07, 04:04 PM	Things that have been suggested that I recall: +2 survival, spot, and listen checks. Keen sense and a hardy life style make half-orcs good at surviving in the wilderness. +2 Bonus on Con saves. Half-orcs are a hardy bunch, and used to having to eat or drink some the fouler things in life. +1 Natural Armor. Orcs and Half orcs are incredibly tough and bred for war, this has led to thick skins and tough hides that will resist even a sword. +1 Skill point a level. Half orcs are as adaptable as their human parents. *shrugs*. Ive seen them all used before, and none of them have ever caused a game in imbalance.
Rhuxley 02-21-07, 04:06 PM	Give them Favored Class: Any Give them an Intimidation & Bluff Bonus. Just like 1/2 elves get the bonuses so should they
Grod_The_Giant 02-21-07, 04:13 PM	bad idea, comparing them to half-elves. They're a notoriously underpowered race as well.
AMGriffin 02-21-07, 04:15 PM	Don't use the half-orc mutations. It gives half-orcs abilities that are too useful to melee classes. If you give half-orcs a constitution bonus or an extra human feat, a bite attack, anything like that then you're not really "fixing" them, but rather making it worse by hammering them into the melee brute role. That said, If you want to modifiy half-orcs. I'd have to say one of the best things you can do is remove one of their penalties (I prefer intelligence, as the charisma penalty keeps with their flavor moreso then an intelligence penalty). And why not give them some more human-like traits? They are half-human. If there's one thing I hate about DND half-races is they aren't human at all. Orcs need to lose mental penalties without doubt, right now they basically stand out as freakish melee power houses that can't do anything else. My personal half-orc and orc look like such: Half-orc • +2 Strength, -2 Charisma. Half-orcs are strong, but sullen and brooding as a result their mixed blood and upbringing. • Medium Size • 30 feet base land speed • Darkivision out to 30 feet. • +2 racial bonus on saves against fear and on intimidation checks. Half-orcs have a dire ruggedness about them and are not one to back down from confrontation. • Bonus feat: Half-orcs are part human, and inherit a degree of adaptability form their human parents. Half-orcs may select any +2/+2 Feat at first level. • Automatic Language: Common, Orc Bonus languages: Any • Favored Class: Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger. A half-orc's highest level barbarian, fighter, or ranger does not count when determining if he/she suffers an XP penalty. Half-orcs are flexible like humans, but this only applies to melee orientated careers Orcs •+4 Strength, -2 Dexterity, -2 Wisdom. Orcs are lined with thick muscle that make them far stronger then normal humans. That same muscle mass slows them down considerably, they also are infamous for their reckless behavior and short tempers. • Medium Size • 30 feet base land speed • Darkvision out to 60 feet. • +3 racial bonus on saves against fear. Orcs are infamous for their reckless bravery in the face of danger. • +2 racial bonus on intimidate checks. Orcs are naturally good at frightening others, purely by their culture and their fierce visage. • Orcs are not well liked by civilized races, and suffer -2 penalties on all charisma based checks say for intimidate. • Orcs with the martial weapon proficiency feat may treat orc double-bladed axes as martial weapons. •+2 racial bonus on craft checks related to weaponry. Orcs are a warrior race, and often learn to craft their own weapons. •Automatic languages: Common, Orc Bonus languages: Abyssal, Dwarven, Giant, Gnoll, Giant, Undercommon. Orcs typically learn the languages of those living in the caverns and caves they too call home. • Favored Class: Barbarian. Ferocity is innate in orcs.
Roman 02-21-07, 04:51 PM	+2 survival, spot, and listen checks. Keen sense and a hardy life style make half-orcs good at surviving in the wilderness. +2 Bonus on Con saves. Half-orcs are a hardy bunch, and used to having to eat or drink some the fouler things in life. +1 Natural Armor. Orcs and Half orcs are incredibly tough and bred for war, this has led to thick skins and tough hides that will resist even a sword. +1 Skill point a level. Half orcs are as adaptable as their human parents. *shrugs*. Ive seen them all used before, and none of them have ever caused a game in imbalance. +2 bonuses to intimidate and resist fear along with +1 natural armor would indeed probably do the trick for Half-Orcs and Orcs. Half-orc • +2 Strength, -2 Charisma. Half-orcs are strong, but sullen and brooding as a result their mixed blood and upbringing. • Medium Size • 30 feet base land speed • Darkivision out to 30 feet. • +2 racial bonus on saves against fear and on intimidation checks. Half-orcs have a dire ruggedness about them and are not one to back down from confrontation. • Bonus feat: Half-orcs are part human, and inherit a degree of adaptability form their human parents. Half-orcs may select any +2/+2 Feat at first level. • Automatic Language: Common, Orc Bonus languages: Any • Favored Class: Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger. A half-orc's highest level barbarian, fighter, or ranger does not count when determining if he/she suffers an XP penalty. Half-orcs are flexible like humans, but this only applies to melee orientated careers Orcs •+4 Strength, -2 Dexterity, -2 Wisdom. Orcs are lined with thick muscle that make them far stronger then normal humans. That same muscle mass slows them down considerably, they also are infamous for their reckless behavior and short tempers. • Medium Size • 30 feet base land speed • Darkvision out to 60 feet. • +3 racial bonus on saves against fear. Orcs are infamous for their reckless bravery in the face of danger. • +2 racial bonus on intimidate checks. Orcs are naturally good at frightening others, purely by their culture and their fierce visage. • Orcs are not well liked by civilized races, and suffer -2 penalties on all charisma based checks say for intimidate. • Orcs with the martial weapon proficiency feat may treat orc double-bladed axes as martial weapons. •+2 racial bonus on craft checks related to weaponry. Orcs are a warrior race, and often learn to craft their own weapons. •Automatic languages: Common, Orc Bonus languages: Abyssal, Dwarven, Giant, Gnoll, Giant, Undercommon. Orcs typically learn the languages of those living in the caverns and caves they too call home. • Favored Class: Barbarian. Ferocity is innate in orcs. I like both of these a lot. The orcish flavor is preserved for the half-orc and indeed enhanced for the orc, while the half-orc also gains some of human flexibility, but without the standard 'any feat' or pure addition of skill points or 'any' favored class. Initially, I thought it overcompensates the previous weaknesses of the half-orcs, but upon closer look it seems balanced. I also like the idea of the -2 Dexterity penalty for orcs instead of the -2 Int penalty. One thing, I would change, though, is the discrepancy between the half-orc penalty to charisma and the orc penalty to wisdom.The penalty for interaction with civilized races kind of bridges the gap, but not really. Either both should get a charisma penalty or both should get a wisdom penalty. As an aside, I like the -2 Dex penalty instead of the -2 Int penalty, but does it fit in with traditional orc flavor? I am only really familiar with orcs from LOTR, Warcraft III and D&D, in all of which they seemed about average in terms of dexterity. BTW: What are those 'mutations' everybody is talking about?
Kadasbrass 02-21-07, 05:21 PM	The mutations are from another thread on the boards. Randomlly roll for an ability I believe. The Half-Orcs I use for my campaign are: +2 str -2 Int 60 feet darkvision Any bonus feat at level 1 Weapon familiarity: bastard sword +2 Intimidate, +2 Ride, +2 Handle Animal checks Orc and Human Blood Since their stronger reasoned their naturally able to handle the sword one handed. In my setting their a natural race, instead of being born to two races, their really just an human subrace that has long had orc blood in them. Gave them ride and handle animal checks since their race has long worked with animals.
JarionSilverblades 02-21-07, 05:35 PM	I've always thought the Half-orc was the worst PC race, that's why I Introduced a new version to my Home-brewed campaign. I really set out to make it so the Half-orc was a race that could be played as any class, not just Fighter type classes. HALF-ORC ~UPGRADE~ HALF-ORC RACIAL TRAITS ● +2 Strength, -2 Intelligence ● Medium: As Medium creatures, Half-orcs have no special bonuses or penalties due to his size. ● Half-orcs base land speed is 30 feet. ● Darkvision 60ft. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight. ● +2 racial bonus on Intimidate checks,(-2 when dealing with Full blood Orcs). ● +2 racial bonus on Fortitude saving throws against Disease and poison. ● +2 racial bonus on all Concentration checks. ● +2 bonus to any one Knowledge skill, must choose one knowledge type, (ex. Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (Local) or other). ● Weapon Proficiency: Half-orcs are proficient with the Orc Double Axe. ● +1 bonus on attack rolls against Dwarves and Elves. ● Orc Blood. ● Automatic Languages: Common and Orc. Bonus Languages Draconic, Giant, Goblin, Gnoll, and Abyssal. ● Favored Class: Any. :duel:
AMGriffin 02-21-07, 06:06 PM	+ I like both of these a lot. The orcish flavor is preserved for the half-orc and indeed enhanced for the orc, while the half-orc also gains some of human flexibility, but without the standard 'any feat' or pure addition of skill points or 'any' favored class. Initially, I thought it overcompensates the previous weaknesses of the half-orcs, but upon closer look it seems balanced. I also like the idea of the -2 Dexterity penalty for orcs instead of the -2 Int penalty. One thing, I would change, though, is the discrepancy between the half-orc penalty to charisma and the orc penalty to wisdom.The penalty for interaction with civilized races kind of bridges the gap, but not really. Either both should get a charisma penalty or both should get a wisdom penalty. As an aside, I like the -2 Dex penalty instead of the -2 Int penalty, but does it fit in with traditional orc flavor? I am only really familiar with orcs from LOTR, Warcraft III and D&D, in all of which they seemed about average in terms of dexterity. BTW: What are those 'mutations' everybody is talking about? The Charisma penalty seems pretty fitting of me for half-orcs. I mean, think about it. You combine the restless and inquisitive nature of humans with the crude ferocity of orcs, plus the fact most everybody doesn't like orcs and being rejected by both sides of your family (for the most part) and society, you're going to be kind of sullen and not the most charming person. Just because neither parent races has it doesn't make it good grounds for totally disbanding it from them. Though if you really wanted to you could ice the orc's social interaction penalty and just give 'em a charisma penalty. Orcs in my campaigns are sorta based off of Warcraft Orcs (In WoW, the orc's starting agility which is basically dexterity is lower then a human's). The intelligence penalty seems like it can be done without too, I really don't like the idea of orcs as stupid or else they're basically watered down ogres, and once again orcs aren't exactly dumb (maybe not as smart as humans) in Warcraft, but I guess the wisdom penalty adequately reflects their cognitive shortcomings. The Dex penalty partly is common sense however. If you're only a few inches taller then a human on average, but you have enough muscle to qualify for +4 strength, I'd be willing to bet you're kinda cumbersome. There's also balance to consider. An orc without any penalty to their physical abilities makes them sorta broken as melee characters...and Constitution penalties really don't make sense for an orc. :P
Roman 02-22-07, 03:14 AM	Well, I did not play World of Warcraft, so all I knew about Warcraft orcs was from Warcraft III. But yes, a dexterity penalty for Orcs certainly fits the balance and probably the flavor too.
Obsidianjaerc 02-22-07, 04:48 AM	ORCS +4 Strength, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma. An orc's Intelligence is always at least 3. If this adjustment would lower the character's score to 1 or 2, her score is nevertheless 3. Orcs are very strong, but they are slow-witted and churlish. - Medium: As Medium creatures, orcs have no special bonuses or penalties due to size. - Orc land speed is 30 feet. - Darkvision: Orcs can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and orcs can function just fine with no light at all. - Light Sensitivity: Orcs are dazzled in bright sunlight and within the radius of a daylight spell. - Weapon Familiarity: Orcs are automatically proficient with battleaxes and greataxes. They also treat orcish double axes and the orcish shot put as martial weapons rather than exotic weapons. - +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against elves. Orcs utterly hate elves, and all are taught from childhood how to to kill them as quickly as possible. - +2 racial bonus on Intimidate checks. Orcs are naturally frightening, and quickly learn to make the most of it. - +2 racial bonus on Survival checks. Orcs are born into harsh, uncivilized conditions. - -2 racial penalty on Diplomacy checks. Orcs do not get along well with anyone, even their own kind. - Automatic Languages: Common and Orc. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin. Orcs often learn the languages of their enemies and other creatures they associate with. - Favored Class: Barbarian. A multiclass orc’s barbarian class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing. Orcs are naturally ferocious and typically live beyond civilization, so becoming a barbarian is only natural to them. HALF-ORCS +2 Strength, -2 Charisma. Half-orcs take after their orcish parents in strength, and their sullen personalities make them seem less intelligent than they really are. - Medium: As Medium creatures, half-orcs have no special bonuses or penalties due to size. - Half-orc land speed is 30 feet. - Darkvision: Half-orcs can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and half-orcs can function just fine with no light at all. - Orc Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-orc is considered an orc. - +1 racial bonus on Intimidate checks. Half-orcs are nearly as frightening as their orcish parents. - +2 racial bonus on Survival checks. Half-orcs are self-sufficient individuals. - -2 racial penalty on Diplomacy checks. Half-orcs have as much trouble getting along with others as orcs do. - 1 bonus feat at 1st level. Like their human parents, half-orcs take to specialized tasks with ease. - Automatic Languages: Common and Orc. Bonus Languages: Any. Half-orcs are rarely welcome in one place for long, and thus encounter a variety of cultures. - Favored Class: Any. When determining whether a multiclass half-orc takes an experience point penalty, his highest-level class does not count. Ctrl+V
Ogrebear 02-22-07, 08:58 AM	I think there is a general consensus that Half-Orcs are underpowered for a core race. I share in this opinion and am looking to upgrade them....I would prefer that they, and indeed orcs too, have some features more in tune with the orc flavor. Any suggestions? What, if anything, have you done to upgrade half-orcs and orcs in your campaigns? It depends on world- in some worlds/campaigns I want standard 'Orc Smash' barbarians with no variation; in others I want a mix of standard Orcs and Orcs in civilization (High Orcs, Sharakim); in other places I might want Orcs who are the dominant race due to conquest (like the Midnight setting). I have had Half Orcs being a true breeding race and the only 'Orcs' left after the genocide of the true Orcs by the Humans/Elf/Dwarf Union. One world I started writing had Orcs, Goblins, and Ogres the only survivors of a continent wide plague. Their Horde inherited all the other races stuff. Sometime later the horde has broken into tribes/nations of varying degrees of civilization; the players are one of these races and are having to deal with an invasion by this strange race called Humans.... I found a very cool version of Orcs for on-line - they where written for Greyhawk but probably could be converted to most settings. You can find the 'Grey Orcs' here in a free download (http://www.oerthjournal.com/oj17.html). There is a Runequest version with slightly different info here- warning pdf link! (http://talmeta.net/runequest/greyhawk/gq-euroz.pdf) I think the key to Orcs is not so much their stats (though the MM/Phb versions suck) but deciding what type of Orcs and Half Orcs you require for your world.
Roman 02-22-07, 10:14 AM	Good point about the campaign-specific flavor of orcs. I am currently without a group, so I am not running a campaign. The last camaign I ran, however, was set in a world where orcs lived in the northern plains bordering mountains on the south. The mountains were dwarven territory with whom the orcs had highly conflictual relations. Further south, beyond the mountains, lay a massive empire of humans, elves and half-elves (all one country), who also had extremely poor relations with the dwarves with frequent bouts of open warfare. For this reason, the orcs were allied with the human/elven empire and eventually a quasi-union developed between the two. Orcs were warlike (but so were the elves/humans though in a different manner, hence the mutual admiration) and organized tribally and most had a shamanistic religion, but druidism and polytheism also made inroads into the orc society.
Roman 02-22-07, 06:58 PM	Ok, these will be the orcs in my above-described campaign world. Do you think they are balanced and fit the flavor? Orc Racial traits: - +4 Strength, -2 Intelligence, -2 Wisdom - Medium: As Medium creatures, orcs have no special bonuses or penalties due to size. - Orc land speed is 30 feet. - Darkvision: Orcs can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and orcs can function just fine with no light at all. - Light Sensitivity: Orcs are dazzled in bright sunlight and within the radius of a daylight spell. - +2 hit points - +2 racial bonus on saves against fear - +2 racial bonus on intimidate checks - Automatic Languages: Common, Orc - Favored Class: Barbarian Half-Orc Racial traits: - +2 Strength, -2 Intelligence - Medium: As Medium creatures, half-orcs have no special bonuses or penalties due to size. - Half-Orc land speed is 30 feet. - Darkvision: Half-Orcs can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and orcs can function just fine with no light at all. - Orc Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-orc is considered an orc. - +1 hit point - +1 racial bonus on saves against fear - The intelligence penalty of half-orcs does not apply for the purpose of gaining skill points. - Automatic Languages: Common, Orc - Favored Class: Any of the following -Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger and Scout
AMGriffin 02-22-07, 09:23 PM	Eh, if you're not going to give half-orcs a penalty to skill points you may as well just give them a charisma penalty instead of an INT penalty.
Roman 02-22-07, 09:28 PM	Eh, if you're not going to give half-orcs a penalty to skill points you may as well just give them a charisma penalty instead of an INT penalty. Perhaps, but because orcs and half-orcs are widely accepted in this campaign world the charisma penalty does not really fit. Still, do you think the current solution is balanced?
Marcotic 02-23-07, 02:38 AM	I dunno, I kinda think that orcs should recieve a -2 cha and a -4 int, maybe a -2 wisdom as well I mean as it stands orcs are as smart has half-orcs. Another thing about the dex penalty is that we could probably glean somthing from watching really strong peoples movements. Dunno,
Arcane Guyver 02-23-07, 12:51 PM	Ok, these will be the orcs in my above-described campaign world. Do you think they are balanced and fit the flavor? I think you hit a good balance there, for the most part. The bonus hit points are kind of strange. I'd also recommend that half-orcs choose their favored class at 1st level.
AMGriffin 02-23-07, 07:47 PM	Game wise it seems pretty balanced, but half-orcs could use something all their own, as right now they're just half a human and half an orc. I'd say just giving them a few bonuses to skills based on their position in society, like bonuses to survival and intimidate checks, but since they are excepted...I dunno what else could be done. To compensate for the two extra skills, just opt to turn the half-orc's int penalty not counting in relation to gaining skill points into one extra skill point per level. Just think about the role they have in orc society, and give them a +2 skill bonus based on that. do the same with humans.
creyzi4zb12 02-23-07, 08:17 PM	Half-orc • +2 Strength, -2 Charisma. Half-orcs are strong, but sullen and brooding as a result their mixed blood and upbringing. • Medium Size • 30 feet base land speed • Darkivision out to 30 feet. • +2 racial bonus on saves against fear and on intimidation checks. Half-orcs have a dire ruggedness about them and are not one to back down from confrontation. • Bonus feat: Half-orcs are part human, and inherit a degree of adaptability form their human parents. Half-orcs may select any +2/+2 Feat at first level. • Automatic Language: Common, Orc Bonus languages: Any • Favored Class: Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger. A half-orc's highest level barbarian, fighter, or ranger does not count when determining if he/she suffers an XP penalty. Half-orcs are flexible like humans, but this only applies to melee orientated careers Orcs •+4 Strength, -2 Dexterity, -2 Wisdom. Orcs are lined with thick muscle that make them far stronger then normal humans. That same muscle mass slows them down considerably, they also are infamous for their reckless behavior and short tempers. • Medium Size • 30 feet base land speed • Darkvision out to 60 feet. • +3 racial bonus on saves against fear. Orcs are infamous for their reckless bravery in the face of danger. • +2 racial bonus on intimidate checks. Orcs are naturally good at frightening others, purely by their culture and their fierce visage. • Orcs are not well liked by civilized races, and suffer -2 penalties on all charisma based checks say for intimidate. • Orcs with the martial weapon proficiency feat may treat orc double-bladed axes as martial weapons. •+2 racial bonus on craft checks related to weaponry. Orcs are a warrior race, and often learn to craft their own weapons. •Automatic languages: Common, Orc Bonus languages: Abyssal, Dwarven, Giant, Gnoll, Giant, Undercommon. Orcs typically learn the languages of those living in the caverns and caves they too call home. • Favored Class: Barbarian. Ferocity is innate in orcs. Orcs aren't slow!! They're fast!! They've been trained to do almost anything there is in the world that includes speed like chasing pigs and climbing mountains, muscle mass doesn't make u slow, it does hinder u in swimming tho'. Altho orcs are recklessly brave when it comes to battles, I also think that orcs are cowards when it comes to retreating.
AMGriffin 02-23-07, 09:52 PM	Orcs are no faster then humans, perhaps slow wasn't the best word. But come on, dexterity is a sensible penalty to orcs. Like I said before +4 strength worthy muscle packed onto a frame not much larger then a human's plus the fact that orcs typically aren't portrayed to be the most finesse savy fighters around. They charge into battle with giant weapons using raw power, not exactly dexterity worthy. Besides, you've got balance to consider. If you just give them all mental penalties you're making them far too good at melee combat. And you do realize the blatant contradiction of saying they're brave in fighting but quick to run right? >_> PS: You don't have the monopoly on flavor of orcs. I get my idea of orcs primarily (though not completely) from Warcraft.