Orog Savage Progression? [PEACH] [Archive] - Wizards Community

Orog Savage Progression? [PEACH] [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Damuna
07-20-07, 01:34 PM I've been thinking about Orogs as PCs, and as such, a Savage Progression for them. I did a search and didn't find anything, so here's my rough draft:

Level 0 (Basic):

Abilities: +4 Strength, -2 Dexterity, -2 Wisdom.
Base speed: 30ft
Darkvision 60ft
Martial Weapon Proficiency: Greatsword, Throwing Axe
Light Blindness
Orc Blood
Automatic Languages: Common, Orc. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Elven, Goblin, Giant, Undercommon.
Favoured Class: Fighter

Level 1:

Abilities: +2 Charisma.
Skills: +2 on Craft (Armoursmithing) and Craft (Weaponsmithing)
Natural Armour +2

Level 2:

Abilities: +2 Strength.
Resistances: Cold 5, Fire 5
Darkvision 120ft

(Can someone remind me how to get the spoiler box? I've forgotten. :embarrass)

This probably needs a bit of tweaking still (the abilities seem like the main culprit), and it's clearly going to be more powerful than the half-orc no matter what: that's one of the facts of life. ;)

So...ideas for improvement? Hitting me with a DMG for missing a previous whack at this? Random comments? :D
AMGriffin
07-20-07, 08:14 PM Looks good.

I'm also not sure on this, but does savage progression include any HD or other such things?
Apupunchau
07-20-07, 08:41 PM Yeah I'm pretty sure savage progression includes both the LA and the HD.
Dracomortis
07-20-07, 08:53 PM Do orogs really get a bonus to Charisma? I thought they were half-orc/half-ogres, both of which have a penalty to Charisma. I'm not very familiar with the Forgotten Realms setting, but this seems extremely odd.
AMGriffin
07-20-07, 09:37 PM Orogs are an underdark variety of orcs.

Ogrillion are ogre/orc crossbreeds.

They're basically ogres with lower STR and NA scores and fewer racial HD.
Dracomortis
07-21-07, 12:08 PM Orogs are an underdark variety of orcs.

Ogrillion are ogre/orc crossbreeds.

They're basically ogres with lower STR and NA scores and fewer racial HD.
I thought both orogs and ogrillions were ogre/orc crossbreeds, the difference being which parent was male and which was female. Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orog), Enworld (http://www.enworld.org/cc/converted/humanoid/orog.htm), Answers.com (http://www.answers.com/topic/orog), and Urban Dictionary (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=orog) all have orogs listed as a half-orc/half-ogre. Perhaps they've changed it from an earlier meaning of the word?
AMGriffin
07-21-07, 12:16 PM Yeah, they changed it for 3.5 I'm quite sure. Orog now is a name for a race of big and scary orcs living in the underdark. Another name for the orogs in 3.5E is deep orc.
Ninetails Demon
07-21-07, 04:35 PM I think if you wanted to split up the LA among levels, you'd have to make the character take a regular class at level 1 with the base Orog stats. After that, the character can take a level in Orog. And if you want, another class level before taking Orog again.

Split the Natural Armor up between level 1 & 2 as a +1 bonus. Give the bonuses to the crafting skills as part of the Basic Orog. And move Darkvision 120ft. to the first level. I'd say move one of the resistances to first level as well, since it is a little light.

Also, check this link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) if you haven't already.

And does anyone else feel the Orog is a little weak for LA +2?
AMGriffin
07-21-07, 04:40 PM Yeah, I agree with you there. Adding a bonus to constitution and/or powerful build would probably fix it pretty well though.

...What would a half-orog look like?
Ninetails Demon
07-21-07, 06:20 PM Well, I don't know if anyone still uses Feature Points, but a quick run down.
+6 Str (15+6), +2 Cha (4), -2 Dex (-3), -2 Wis, (-3)
Darkvision 120ft. (6) and Light Blindness (-2)
Resistances: Fire 5 (2.5), Cold 5 (2.5)
Weapon Proficiencies: (2) Skill Bonuses: (1)
Natural Armor +2 (12)
Total: 43

That looks like it's overpowered +1 LA, unless I figured something wrong. I'd say lower the level adjustment to +1. That would mean you'd have to change the Savage Progression however.

Try this:
Base Orog
Abilities: +4 Strength, -2 Dexterity, -2 Wisdom.
Base speed: 30ft
Darkvision 60ft
Skills: +2 on Craft (Armoursmithing) and Craft (Weaponsmithing)
Martial Weapon Proficiency: Greatsword, Throwing Axe
Natural Armor +1
Light Blindness
Orc Blood
Automatic Languages: Undercommon, Orc. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Elven, Goblin, Giant, Common.
Favoured Class: Fighter

Level 1:
Abilities: +2 Strength, +2 Charisma.
Natural Armour +1
Resistances: Cold 5, Fire 5
Darkvision 120ft

This puts the base orog as a slightly overpowered +0 LA race, and actually makes it feel like the character is getting some nice benefits for investing into Orog levels.

And what would a half-orog look like? Why, a green half-elf of course! :w00t:
AMGriffin
07-21-07, 07:07 PM Yaba's Feature Points system makes me dizzy, I prefer to just avoid it.
Ninetails Demon
07-21-07, 10:21 PM Either way. I still think the Orog needs a lesser LA or alot more spiffy abilities. After stretching it into a Savage Progression, it doesn't seem to be even close to being worth two full levels.
Omega_Grey
07-22-07, 02:07 AM I've always felt that getting rid of the energy resistance and dropping it to a +1 level adjustment would be a good fix, but that might still be underpowered.

Also, in Faerun the Orog is a sub-species of orc that was forced underground and mutated by the magical radiation that exists there (I forget what its called, I think it starts with an F). And Ogrillion is an Orc/Ogre hybrid.

In almost all other campaigns an Orog is a Orc/Ogre hybrid and an Ogrillion is a mutated Orc/Ogre hybrid that is pretty ferocious. Either way I havent seen a 3/3.5 stating of Ogrillion, am I just missing it somewhere?
runestar
07-22-07, 02:17 AM Orog gets +6str, -2dex, -2wis, +2cha, +2NA and fire/cold resist5, among other minor benefits and drawbacks (like light sensitivity).

It does seem slightly underpowered compared to half-ogre, which grants you more benefits, such as large size and better NA.

It is clearly too strong for LA+1, seems like it is stuck between LA+1 and +2 (too strong for LA+1, too weak for LA+2).

Sucks...:(
Omega_Grey
07-22-07, 02:48 AM How about just making them better then?

Heres my quick and dirty improvement (I already gave my thought on how to bring them down)

Increase the Natural armor to +2 and then increase the cold and fire resistance to 10 each and that should be a fine thing. Or just give them powerful build like they seem to be made for. Probably shouldnt do both though.
Ninetails Demon
07-22-07, 03:41 AM Not to sound assanine, I don't think it's too strong for LA+1. Compare it to the planetouched: Aasimar & Tiefling.

Comparison Resistances: Both Planetouched have one more resistance than the Orog. (Planetouched)

Abilities: Orog comes out ahead simply because the bonus to Strength is so high, but it does suffer two penalties rather than one or none. (Orog)

Skills: Planetouched skill bonuses are more useful generally speaking, at least when it comes to combat applications. The Planetouched definately win this one. (planetouched)

Proficiencies: Planetouched. The aasimar is proficient with medium armor & shields, while the tiefling is proficient with light armor & shields. Also, both are proficient with all simple & martial weapons automatically. This more then trumps the Orog bonus proficiencies. (Planetouched)

Darkvision: The Orog wins this hands down with twice as much darkvision. (Orog)

Unique: The planetouched have a special spell-like ability usable 1/day: daylight or darkness. I would say the spell-like abilities are comparable to the natural armor combined with light blindess. Given that each can be useful in a variety of situations, natural armor is superior to the spell-like abilities, but light BLINDNESS drags it down a bit. A tie. (None)

Based on this comparison, Planetouched 3 and Orog 2. However, this is a rough comparison that doesn't go into fantastic detail about each individual comparison. One of its failures is not weighing how much each advantage is actually worth. It is simply to aid in eyeballing their abilities.

Also, Check out the savage progressions of the tiefling and aasimar (here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a)), and compare those to my earlier suggestion. With a LA+1, the Orog savage progressions flows much better compared to them.

Omega Grey: Natural Armor bonus is already +2. However, powerful build is a great suggestion for bringing them up to LA+2.
AMGriffin
07-22-07, 11:54 AM I'd rather not see an Orog at LA+1. If you want a good LA+2 Orog I say add powerful build to them...and maybe something to make note of their toughness, like great fortitude.
Ninetails Demon
07-22-07, 10:22 PM After thinking about it more, the Orog is a little too much for LA+1. :embarrass However, if powerful build is added (since that seems to be the popular choice), when should the character ultimately receive it as part of a savage progression? I'd say level 2, since that follows the pattern set in the previous Savage Progressions for the first level receiving enhanced vision and resistances.

Incorporating Powerful Build:
Base Orog:

Abilities: +4 Strength, -2 Dexterity, -2 Wisdom
Base speed: 30ft
Darkvision 60ft
Skills: +2 on Craft (Armoursmithing) and Craft (Weaponsmithing)
Martial Weapon Proficiency: Greatsword, Throwing Axe
Light Blindness
Orc Blood
Automatic Languages: Undercommon, Orc.
Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Elven, Goblin, Giant, Common.
Favoured Class: Fighter

Level 1:
Abilities: +2 Charisma
Resistances: Cold 5, Fire 5
Darkvision 120ft
Natural Armour +1

Level 2:
Abilities: +2 Strength
Natural Armour +1
Powerful Build
AMGriffin
07-22-07, 10:53 PM That works.
Damuna
07-23-07, 01:10 PM Incorporating Powerful Build:
Base Orog:

Abilities: +4 Strength, -2 Dexterity, -2 Wisdom
Base speed: 30ft
Darkvision 60ft
Skills: +2 on Craft (Armoursmithing) and Craft (Weaponsmithing)
Martial Weapon Proficiency: Greatsword, Throwing Axe
Light Blindness
Orc Blood
Automatic Languages: Undercommon, Orc.
Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Elven, Goblin, Giant, Common.
Favoured Class: Fighter

Level 1:
Abilities: +2 Charisma
Resistances: Cold 5, Fire 5
Darkvision 120ft
Natural Armour +1

Level 2:
Abilities: +2 Strength
Natural Armour +1
Powerful Build

As a player race, the Orog needs to be able to speak Common straight off. :P
Ninetails Demon
07-24-07, 01:24 AM I was just using the listed languages as written for accuracy. And Common doesn't neccesarily have to be a PC language, depending on the composition of the party. If it becomes too much of an issue, just houserule as you've already done, but the surface langugaes are overrated!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Damuna 07-20-07, 01:34 PM	I've been thinking about Orogs as PCs, and as such, a Savage Progression for them. I did a search and didn't find anything, so here's my rough draft: Level 0 (Basic): Abilities: +4 Strength, -2 Dexterity, -2 Wisdom. Base speed: 30ft Darkvision 60ft Martial Weapon Proficiency: Greatsword, Throwing Axe Light Blindness Orc Blood Automatic Languages: Common, Orc. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Elven, Goblin, Giant, Undercommon. Favoured Class: Fighter Level 1: Abilities: +2 Charisma. Skills: +2 on Craft (Armoursmithing) and Craft (Weaponsmithing) Natural Armour +2 Level 2: Abilities: +2 Strength. Resistances: Cold 5, Fire 5 Darkvision 120ft (Can someone remind me how to get the spoiler box? I've forgotten. :embarrass) This probably needs a bit of tweaking still (the abilities seem like the main culprit), and it's clearly going to be more powerful than the half-orc no matter what: that's one of the facts of life. ;) So...ideas for improvement? Hitting me with a DMG for missing a previous whack at this? Random comments? :D
AMGriffin 07-20-07, 08:14 PM	Looks good. I'm also not sure on this, but does savage progression include any HD or other such things?
Apupunchau 07-20-07, 08:41 PM	Yeah I'm pretty sure savage progression includes both the LA and the HD.
Dracomortis 07-20-07, 08:53 PM	Do orogs really get a bonus to Charisma? I thought they were half-orc/half-ogres, both of which have a penalty to Charisma. I'm not very familiar with the Forgotten Realms setting, but this seems extremely odd.
AMGriffin 07-20-07, 09:37 PM	Orogs are an underdark variety of orcs. Ogrillion are ogre/orc crossbreeds. They're basically ogres with lower STR and NA scores and fewer racial HD.
Dracomortis 07-21-07, 12:08 PM	Orogs are an underdark variety of orcs. Ogrillion are ogre/orc crossbreeds. They're basically ogres with lower STR and NA scores and fewer racial HD. I thought both orogs and ogrillions were ogre/orc crossbreeds, the difference being which parent was male and which was female. Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orog), Enworld (http://www.enworld.org/cc/converted/humanoid/orog.htm), Answers.com (http://www.answers.com/topic/orog), and Urban Dictionary (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=orog) all have orogs listed as a half-orc/half-ogre. Perhaps they've changed it from an earlier meaning of the word?
AMGriffin 07-21-07, 12:16 PM	Yeah, they changed it for 3.5 I'm quite sure. Orog now is a name for a race of big and scary orcs living in the underdark. Another name for the orogs in 3.5E is deep orc.
Ninetails Demon 07-21-07, 04:35 PM	I think if you wanted to split up the LA among levels, you'd have to make the character take a regular class at level 1 with the base Orog stats. After that, the character can take a level in Orog. And if you want, another class level before taking Orog again. Split the Natural Armor up between level 1 & 2 as a +1 bonus. Give the bonuses to the crafting skills as part of the Basic Orog. And move Darkvision 120ft. to the first level. I'd say move one of the resistances to first level as well, since it is a little light. Also, check this link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) if you haven't already. And does anyone else feel the Orog is a little weak for LA +2?
AMGriffin 07-21-07, 04:40 PM	Yeah, I agree with you there. Adding a bonus to constitution and/or powerful build would probably fix it pretty well though. ...What would a half-orog look like?
Ninetails Demon 07-21-07, 06:20 PM	Well, I don't know if anyone still uses Feature Points, but a quick run down. +6 Str (15+6), +2 Cha (4), -2 Dex (-3), -2 Wis, (-3) Darkvision 120ft. (6) and Light Blindness (-2) Resistances: Fire 5 (2.5), Cold 5 (2.5) Weapon Proficiencies: (2) Skill Bonuses: (1) Natural Armor +2 (12) Total: 43 That looks like it's overpowered +1 LA, unless I figured something wrong. I'd say lower the level adjustment to +1. That would mean you'd have to change the Savage Progression however. Try this: Base Orog Abilities: +4 Strength, -2 Dexterity, -2 Wisdom. Base speed: 30ft Darkvision 60ft Skills: +2 on Craft (Armoursmithing) and Craft (Weaponsmithing) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Greatsword, Throwing Axe Natural Armor +1 Light Blindness Orc Blood Automatic Languages: Undercommon, Orc. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Elven, Goblin, Giant, Common. Favoured Class: Fighter Level 1: Abilities: +2 Strength, +2 Charisma. Natural Armour +1 Resistances: Cold 5, Fire 5 Darkvision 120ft This puts the base orog as a slightly overpowered +0 LA race, and actually makes it feel like the character is getting some nice benefits for investing into Orog levels. And what would a half-orog look like? Why, a green half-elf of course! :w00t:
AMGriffin 07-21-07, 07:07 PM	Yaba's Feature Points system makes me dizzy, I prefer to just avoid it.
Ninetails Demon 07-21-07, 10:21 PM	Either way. I still think the Orog needs a lesser LA or alot more spiffy abilities. After stretching it into a Savage Progression, it doesn't seem to be even close to being worth two full levels.
Omega_Grey 07-22-07, 02:07 AM	I've always felt that getting rid of the energy resistance and dropping it to a +1 level adjustment would be a good fix, but that might still be underpowered. Also, in Faerun the Orog is a sub-species of orc that was forced underground and mutated by the magical radiation that exists there (I forget what its called, I think it starts with an F). And Ogrillion is an Orc/Ogre hybrid. In almost all other campaigns an Orog is a Orc/Ogre hybrid and an Ogrillion is a mutated Orc/Ogre hybrid that is pretty ferocious. Either way I havent seen a 3/3.5 stating of Ogrillion, am I just missing it somewhere?
runestar 07-22-07, 02:17 AM	Orog gets +6str, -2dex, -2wis, +2cha, +2NA and fire/cold resist5, among other minor benefits and drawbacks (like light sensitivity). It does seem slightly underpowered compared to half-ogre, which grants you more benefits, such as large size and better NA. It is clearly too strong for LA+1, seems like it is stuck between LA+1 and +2 (too strong for LA+1, too weak for LA+2). Sucks...:(
Omega_Grey 07-22-07, 02:48 AM	How about just making them better then? Heres my quick and dirty improvement (I already gave my thought on how to bring them down) Increase the Natural armor to +2 and then increase the cold and fire resistance to 10 each and that should be a fine thing. Or just give them powerful build like they seem to be made for. Probably shouldnt do both though.
Ninetails Demon 07-22-07, 03:41 AM	Not to sound assanine, I don't think it's too strong for LA+1. Compare it to the planetouched: Aasimar & Tiefling. Comparison Resistances: Both Planetouched have one more resistance than the Orog. (Planetouched) Abilities: Orog comes out ahead simply because the bonus to Strength is so high, but it does suffer two penalties rather than one or none. (Orog) Skills: Planetouched skill bonuses are more useful generally speaking, at least when it comes to combat applications. The Planetouched definately win this one. (planetouched) Proficiencies: Planetouched. The aasimar is proficient with medium armor & shields, while the tiefling is proficient with light armor & shields. Also, both are proficient with all simple & martial weapons automatically. This more then trumps the Orog bonus proficiencies. (Planetouched) Darkvision: The Orog wins this hands down with twice as much darkvision. (Orog) Unique: The planetouched have a special spell-like ability usable 1/day: daylight or darkness. I would say the spell-like abilities are comparable to the natural armor combined with light blindess. Given that each can be useful in a variety of situations, natural armor is superior to the spell-like abilities, but light BLINDNESS drags it down a bit. A tie. (None) Based on this comparison, Planetouched 3 and Orog 2. However, this is a rough comparison that doesn't go into fantastic detail about each individual comparison. One of its failures is not weighing how much each advantage is actually worth. It is simply to aid in eyeballing their abilities. Also, Check out the savage progressions of the tiefling and aasimar (here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a)), and compare those to my earlier suggestion. With a LA+1, the Orog savage progressions flows much better compared to them. Omega Grey: Natural Armor bonus is already +2. However, powerful build is a great suggestion for bringing them up to LA+2.
AMGriffin 07-22-07, 11:54 AM	I'd rather not see an Orog at LA+1. If you want a good LA+2 Orog I say add powerful build to them...and maybe something to make note of their toughness, like great fortitude.
Ninetails Demon 07-22-07, 10:22 PM	After thinking about it more, the Orog is a little too much for LA+1. :embarrass However, if powerful build is added (since that seems to be the popular choice), when should the character ultimately receive it as part of a savage progression? I'd say level 2, since that follows the pattern set in the previous Savage Progressions for the first level receiving enhanced vision and resistances. Incorporating Powerful Build: Base Orog: Abilities: +4 Strength, -2 Dexterity, -2 Wisdom Base speed: 30ft Darkvision 60ft Skills: +2 on Craft (Armoursmithing) and Craft (Weaponsmithing) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Greatsword, Throwing Axe Light Blindness Orc Blood Automatic Languages: Undercommon, Orc. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Elven, Goblin, Giant, Common. Favoured Class: Fighter Level 1: Abilities: +2 Charisma Resistances: Cold 5, Fire 5 Darkvision 120ft Natural Armour +1 Level 2: Abilities: +2 Strength Natural Armour +1 Powerful Build
AMGriffin 07-22-07, 10:53 PM	That works.
Damuna 07-23-07, 01:10 PM	Incorporating Powerful Build: Base Orog: Abilities: +4 Strength, -2 Dexterity, -2 Wisdom Base speed: 30ft Darkvision 60ft Skills: +2 on Craft (Armoursmithing) and Craft (Weaponsmithing) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Greatsword, Throwing Axe Light Blindness Orc Blood Automatic Languages: Undercommon, Orc. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Elven, Goblin, Giant, Common. Favoured Class: Fighter Level 1: Abilities: +2 Charisma Resistances: Cold 5, Fire 5 Darkvision 120ft Natural Armour +1 Level 2: Abilities: +2 Strength Natural Armour +1 Powerful Build As a player race, the Orog needs to be able to speak Common straight off. :P
Ninetails Demon 07-24-07, 01:24 AM	I was just using the listed languages as written for accuracy. And Common doesn't neccesarily have to be a PC language, depending on the composition of the party. If it becomes too much of an issue, just houserule as you've already done, but the surface langugaes are overrated!