Post/Author/DateTime	Post
steakandeggs 05-06-07, 09:29 AM	Recently some guys, in the D&D game I'm in, died. They decided to make new players instead of take penalties towards their current characters. So they made Illithids (Mind Flayers) and they wanted to get revenge on the people who killed their previous characters- my allies along with myself. These players, now Mind Flayers, proceded to attack my friends and I while we were thousands of feet above a city in a magical airship. Granted, we were raining cannonfire upon the innocent city but that aside, shouldn't they have a range for their spells? I mean, they summoned portal openings in which an army of Mind Flayer tentacle things burst out (about 30 of them) and penetrated straight through our ships defenses, went straight to attacking my allies and I without giving us a chance to do anything in retalliation. By the way, these two Mind Flayer characters (who are thousands of feet below- on the ground) are only level ONE. These tentacle things proceeded to use their attacks, without myself or anyone else on the ship getting a chance to do anything at all. So their attacks don't do damage but basically perma-stun everyone. The session ended there because people had to leave, but now I know that my friends and I are going to get completely owned at the next session since we are permanently stunned. The way I see it is that these new level one Illithids are either insanely overpowered or my DM is very gullible/stupid. It gets me very frustrated because my allies and I are evil, and it seems that my DM lets these grossly overpowered things go on as a sort of karma for us evil players- which is wrong and biased. So any advice on Illithids (Mind Flayers) or on how I can resolve this imbalance of power would be greatly appreciated.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 05-06-07, 09:32 AM	Is the Dm enforcing racial HD and LA? Because a base Mind Flayer is a 15th level character.
Ulandorf_TheBlue 05-06-07, 09:43 AM	aren't Mind Flayers LA +7? They have plane shift, but I still don't see how they could attack through the portal. Guess I haven't used that spell/power much. Mind Blast lasts for 3d4 rounds on a failed save...so it isn't permanent. Sounds like something screwy is going on.
runestar 05-06-07, 09:48 AM	Yes. LA+7, for a final ECL of 15 when you factor in its 8 racial HD, since ECL is by definition HD+LA...:D
steakandeggs 05-06-07, 09:48 AM	I don't know what my DM is doing. I think the two players, who are now Mind Flayers, weaseled their way into becoming this race. I think they lied to him and said that a Mind Flayer is level one but is just really really really powerful and our DM believed them. The players took the info from books the DM doesn't own and has never even read so I suppose he just took their word. About the Mind Blast thing, their are about 30 of these tentacle things, each with a Mind Blast attack so... If the DM allows the attack to continue, all five of us on this ship are screwed. by the way, thanks for the quick replies
RobbyPants 05-06-07, 10:18 AM	I don't know what my DM is doing. I think the two players, who are now Mind Flayers, weaseled their way into becoming this race. I think they lied to him and said that a Mind Flayer is level one but is just really really really powerful and our DM believed them. The players took the info from books the DM doesn't own and has never even read so I suppose he just took their word. About the Mind Blast thing, their are about 30 of these tentacle things, each with a Mind Blast attack so... If the DM allows the attack to continue, all five of us on this ship are screwed. by the way, thanks for the quick replies Well, the DM's being a noob for just letting them use stuff that he doesn't own, and then taking their word for it. What level is the rest of the group (not counting the mind flayers)? As everyone has said, without class levels, these guys will count as 15th level PCs. If they're level 1, they'll count as 16th level. Does your DM understand the rules of level adjustments (LA) and effective character level (ECL)?
Lotus Crane 05-06-07, 10:28 AM	When the ECL rules are properly applied, illithids are not nearly that powerful in comparison to normal PC's. In fact, they're probably weaker. Those two using illithids are blatantly lying, cheating, and taking advantage of an ignorant DM. Demand that they actually bring in the books that they're taking the rules for illithids from and show them to the DM. In case they refuse to (for fear of being exposed), print out this thread and bring it to your game.
steakandeggs 05-06-07, 10:54 AM	My group consists of a myself (level 16) and 4 others (levels 15, 12, 12, and 3). The enemies of ours include a level 18 (who gained 6 levels suspiciously fast) and two "level one" Mind Flayers. I don't think my DM knows much about LAs or ECLs. He knows a lot about D&D in general but is very sketchy with the specific technical things. And yes, one could say he is ignorant, which is okay because are whole group is very new to playing so we try to pool our information. But when people take advantage of his ignorance and preach lies, that is when I have a problem with his ignorance of the game. One of the two Illithid players has Underdark I believe, as well as the complete psionic book. So the info they are using is probably a mixture of those two books and their own power-hungry minds, so it seems.
Naderion 05-06-07, 02:02 PM	Even if the Illithids are by the book, I don't think they have any means to do the things that have been described. Sounds much to me like DM ex Machina and the dm wants you to lose this battle without making rolls. The only thing they can really do with no class levels is to use their mind blast, which has a range limit of 60 ft. and allows a DC 17 Will save. Plane shift only allows them to travel to an alternate plane, but not to teleport on the plane they are currently on. Their levitation ability allows them to rise 20 feet into the air per round, so it would be about 47 rounds or more than four and a half minutes until they are high enough to target something in 1000 ft. hight, but I suppose an airship is far to fast for them to catch up. There are no other abilities normal Illithids have. What you described sounds much more like something a character with 17 or 18 levels in wizard could do, but as level 16 characters yourself, you should have a good chance to make some Will saves aginst everything they could hurl at you.
Tevin Kevlak 05-06-07, 02:25 PM	Like they said earlier the players are taking your DM for a ride/your DM just wants you to lose. Illithids with 1 class level can't "create portal and attack with tentacles through them" and even if they could their mind blast is an area spell, it's not triggered when hit by their tentacle and they can only use it once per illithid not once per tentacle. Call shenanigans on the whole lot of them and if thins don't change, and I mean quick, just leave the game because only 2 of the player's are actually having any fun. Can I ask why it is the DM has players pitted against each other from 2 different factions in the game anyway?
Jaxgaret 05-06-07, 02:41 PM	Can I ask why it is the DM has players pitted against each other from 2 different factions in the game anyway? Because the OP is a troll. It's pretty obvious that, if what was stated in the OP were true, it is an OOG problem, not an IG one. Therefore, the OP's assumption that it is in IG problem reeks of trolldom. Either that or blind naivete.
Maraxus 05-06-07, 03:06 PM	To me, it sounds like the OP was cut-scene-owned for the first time and got traumatized from it. :)
steakandeggs 05-06-07, 04:23 PM	All of the players, including myself, are friends out-of-game. It's things like cheating and deceiving that make the in-game world affect real life. I'm a very chill/laid back person but when people try to cheat and do things like this nonsense I will not just sit back and let it happen. It's unfair to everyone in the game, not just myself. And to answer Tevin Kevlak: The DM didn't pit us against each other necessarily. It was us, the players, who created the in-game rivalry and I am one to believe that the DM has sympathy for the side against mine because my allies and I have been doing very well for a few weeks now. My DM likes things to be balanced but it seems his idea of balancing is to throw power back and forth between the two rival sides. And with these new Mind Flayers, it looks as if the power will never get thrown back because of their horribly exaggerated abilities. I will show this thread to my DM in hopes that will put an end to the cheating of these two players. Thank you everyone for your input and help. :) Anymore input on this matter would still be appreciated.
Tevin Kevlak 05-06-07, 06:30 PM	Well how did this rivlry between you start and why did they continue the rivalry even after their characters died... and are they evil as well? It seems strange that they wouldn't be being illitihds and all... I'd also like to throw out there that having two seperate "teams" of players working against each other typically doesn't make for a good game. Dnd is all about team work not teams working against each other because situations, like the one you described can happen all too easily. One player kills the other and the DM is called out as cheating or playing favorites even if that might not be the case... it also promotes meta-gaming as you'll typically be able to deduce what your enemies (who are sitting across for you) are going to do/what abilities they possess and all you need to do is figure out a way to overcome that.
steakandeggs 05-06-07, 07:26 PM	1) About Illithids: I don't know much of anything about Illithids but the characters who are Illithids claimed that Mind Flayers are somewhat holy and "can't attack without a reason". That is what they told me. It seems, from what I have researched and from I can infer from this thread, what they told me is a load of dookie. 2) About the rivalry situation: I started a guild and hoped for everyone to join and be all honky-dory. But the others opposed the guild. The guild is, at it's core, evil- although it wasn't originally. So the other players who were good didn't want to be affiliated. Which is their prerogative, they can do what they want. But these two players (now Mind Flayers) joined the guild and plotted against it and in our guild charter it states that "treason is punishable by death". So we carried out the law of the guild. I told them they could rejoin with new characters or make amends with their current ones but they decided to make an alliance with the paladin player in our game and try to destroy my guild because we killed them and we are evil. 3) About meta-gaming: I try very hard to actually play the role of my PC, while the others in the game do not. Such is the case with the Mind Flayers who wanted revenge for the death of their previous characters. These new PCs didn't know the old PCs or have anything to do with them so where is the motive for attacking myself and my companions? 4) About the "DM playing favorites": I have asked my DM "Why is this imbalanced crap happening to my allies and I?" to which he replies "You guys have been doing so many evil things and these are the consequences." In my opinion, that is wrong. I know the DM makes up the challenges and the results of situations but the consequences should be balanced just like everything in the game should be. Their are pros and cons to being Good or Evil, not just for being the bad guy. Thanks again for the input :D
FatMonkey13 05-06-07, 08:25 PM	How do you know the mind flayer's created the portal? They could have used an item, hired someone to do it for them, or your 18th level enemy could have done it for them. The problem does not seem to be the 2 Mind Flayers but rather that there are 28 other mind flayers on the ship. 28 Mind Flayers, and 2 Mind Flayer 1st level Psions will have an EL of 20. But the two Mind Flayer 1st level characters have better gear and stats than a normal mind flayer. There is also the level 18 enemy (is he there?) who would add at least 1 to the EL of this encounter. Your party has an level of 14.3 (party level) assuming that you do not have level adjustment or racial HD so it seems that this should be a very difficult or almost unbeatable encounter if run by the book.
steakandeggs 05-06-07, 09:40 PM	How do you know the mind flayer's created the portal? They could have used an item, hired someone to do it for them, or your 18th level enemy could have done it for them. The problem does not seem to be the 2 Mind Flayers but rather that there are 28 other mind flayers on the ship. 28 Mind Flayers, and 2 Mind Flayer 1st level Psions will have an EL of 20. But the two Mind Flayer 1st level characters have better gear and stats than a normal mind flayer. There is also the level 18 enemy (is he there?) who would add at least 1 to the EL of this encounter. Your party has an level of 14.3 (party level) assuming that you do not have level adjustment or racial HD so it seems that this should be a very difficult or almost unbeatable encounter if run by the book. I know what they did because they announced every action. They announced that they opened the portals, which the DM allowed without question because he took every work of these Mind Flayer guys as truth. I questioned it but the DM wouldn't let me argue. I failed to mention this in previous posts but we cast an antimagic field below the ship so any spells cast up towards it would be blocked. Just mentioning it in case it can help my complaint <---(lack of a better word). No outside source was used in this attack, the level 18 was trying to command catapults and the city defenses but that is the only outside source. So they opened portals around the ship, which was thousands of feet above them, and large tentacles shot out into the ship (even though the ship is made of a dark magical metal). If Mind Flayers or any sort of bipedal humanoid creatures came out of the portals, the DM should have clarified, but he did not. The DM and the two PC Mind Flayers said that "tentacles shot out of the portals", they did not say "tentacle faced creatures came out/mind flayers came out/odd creatures came out", they said "tentacles". These two PC Mind Flayers had just finished creating these new characters, so they would not have any special items that could attack a ship that is in the sky with portal openings. Some of the main things I have problems with are: What spell did they use for the portals, because the two players both stated it was a spell? Don't spells have ranges? No other character got to be a race other than the standard ones in the PHB, why did they get to be Illithids? Why wouldn't the DM be suspicious of errors/foul play, considering these Mind Flayers are only level one but have incredibly powerful abilities? (my DM doesn't know much about LAs or ECLs, I will inform him of those things) I'm getting too worked up over this...
Nephlite 05-06-07, 10:13 PM	I failed to mention this in previous posts but we cast an antimagic field below the ship so any spells cast up towards it would be blocked. Just mentioning it in case it can help my complaint <---(lack of a better word). Antimagic field doesn't stop spells from going over/around you only on you. So they cast above you/beside the field So they opened portals around the ship, which was thousands of feet above them, and large tentacles shot out into the ship (even though the ship is made of a dark magical metal). If Mind Flayers or any sort of bipedal humanoid creatures came out of the portals, the DM should have clarified, but he did not. The DM and the two PC Mind Flayers said that "tentacles shot out of the portals", they did not say "tentacle faced creatures came out/mind flayers came out/odd creatures came out", they said "tentacles". a. The creature has not fully emerged yet. He just saw you and attacked: he'll be out soon enough - (be careful it is not Cthulhu, though as their caster is too low; he'd be uncontrollable and may kill them next after you). b. They invented a new spell (epic spell?) c. They were bluffing and the DM took them up on their bluff. These two PC Mind Flayers had just finished creating these new characters, so they would not have any special items that could attack a ship that is in the sky with portal openings. Yes, they could. If they really are Mindflayers +1 character level: they have wealth of a 16th level person. With Use Magic Device or level 1 Wizard/Sorceror, they can use a Scroll or Staff (either will work). How? Gate. The Grand-daddy of all callings. It can open portals to other places (as they did) and grants control (for 1 rd/level, if they want longer service, they need to offer the creature payment). It is a 9th level spell: around 3.5k for the scroll + the Exp cost in gold (maybe another 1000) so around 4.5 K for one. Some of the main things I have problems with are: What spell did they use for the portals, because the two players both stated it was a spell? Only spell possible is gate. Don't spells have ranges? Yep. No other character got to be a race other than the standard ones in the PHB, why did they get to be Illithids? He wanted it for the story to work? Why wouldn't the DM be suspicious of errors/foul play, considering these Mind Flayers are only level one but have incredibly powerful abilities? (my DM doesn't know much about LAs or ECLs, I will inform him of those things) They are Mindflayer +1 level. Think of an Ogre. 4 HD right off the bat. Add in LA which is 2. To have a Level 1 Ogre (I asume this term means with level 1 character class) is ECL 7.
steakandeggs 05-06-07, 10:40 PM	I figured the antimagic field was irrelevant, I just wanted to know if it could have stopped it. Which you answered no. I don't know why but my DM doesn't use things such as "level wealth" (among other things) and I know for a fact that Mind Flayers are not part of his campaign storyline because he didn't even know about them until the two players who wanted to be them brought them up. And about the tentacles that went into the ship. The portals were outside of the ship and these large tentacles shot out from the portals into the ship. How long are the tentacles of an Illithid? Long enough, fast enough, strong enough to come in from 10+ feet outside of a ship, through the metal siding, into the main hold, and attack everyone inside before we could even blink? Also, please tell me what the range for a gate spell is.
WizO_Cat 05-06-07, 11:04 PM	Moved to "What's a Player to Do" board.
Eikre 05-07-07, 01:06 AM	Okay. An Illithid? It looks like this: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/dx0725tt_tactips_illithid.jpg Thar. Four tentacles, tall as a man. Really really evil, high-tech, and intelligent. They have exactly two attacks: A Mindblast, which is an attack that stuns everyone in a 60-foot cone who fails a will save, and Brain Eating, which requires them to walk right up to you, wrap their tentacles around your head, and suck really really hard. They can planeshift, they can use telepathy, and they can levitate. That's it. Nothing more. Nothing. Got it? It's not stemming from their monster abilities at all. I think we've been fairly clear about that. Go pick up the Monster Manual I. It's one of precisely three essential books, so there's no reason you shouldn't have it.
Matthew77 05-07-07, 12:48 PM	Gate (which is the only spell I can think of that would produce an effect like "opening a portal and tentacle monsters come out") has a range of medium, 100 feet +10 feet per caster level. Also, the portal is stationary, so if the ship was moving, it would rapidly leave the portal behind. My advice to you is to have a private chat with the DM. First, ask if these tentacle things are just some sort of plot device to move the story along. If they are, just accept the fact that you have no real way of fighting back, and see what the result is. If the DM insists that these portals and tentacles are the result of actions by the Ilithid PCs, politely explain that you don't understand how they got these powers, and ask the DM to recheck the actions taken by the Ilithids to ensure that they aren't bending or misinterpreting any rules.
Callista 05-07-07, 03:24 PM	Looks like you've got a bunch of newbie players being taken advantage by a couple of munchkins. Ask your DM to let you play an ECL 15 character, too. It's only fair. But honestly, with a couple of guys who insist on playing illithids in a level-1 game, I don't see this coming out too well.
chava 05-07-07, 03:36 PM	Looks like you've got a bunch of newbie players being taken advantage by a couple of munchkins. Ask your DM to let you play an ECL 15 character, too. It's only fair. But honestly, with a couple of guys who insist on playing illithids in a level-1 game, I don't see this coming out too well. The OP is a level 16 character.
steakandeggs 05-07-07, 06:18 PM	Gate (which is the only spell I can think of that would produce an effect like "opening a portal and tentacle monsters come out") has a range of medium, 100 feet +10 feet per caster level. Also, the portal is stationary, so if the ship was moving, it would rapidly leave the portal behind. My advice to you is to have a private chat with the DM. First, ask if these tentacle things are just some sort of plot device to move the story along. If they are, just accept the fact that you have no real way of fighting back, and see what the result is. If the DM insists that these portals and tentacles are the result of actions by the Ilithid PCs, politely explain that you don't understand how they got these powers, and ask the DM to recheck the actions taken by the Ilithids to ensure that they aren't bending or misinterpreting any rules. The ship was hovering overhead in a stationary spot but they were thousands of feet below and completely out of range. I spoke with the DM at length about what happened and he told me that this event was not planned by him or part of the main storyline. I asked why they were able to have such powers, which were completely exaggerated, and the DM said that the two players said that they had such powers. I asked if he questioned them and he said no. After the long conversation he decided he would try to resolve this mess at the next session. I hope all goes well and fair. But if he continues to listen to the two Mind Flayers I know what will happen (and this is what will most likely happen)... If my DM disregards what I told him... My ship will crash and be very terribly damaged and confiscated , the time machine will be stolen and all of the valuables inside as well, the people inside (my allies and I) will either be dead or near death, and I also found out that (without me knowing) the Mining Guild Hall as well as the Mining Guild town have been destroyed (beforehand though, so there is no way to change that). I was also told that my DM said that the Mining Guild is no more due to all of the destruction. Everything I created for this guild is now, possibly, destroyed. My DM is being very unfair. I worked hard and spent a lot of time in the past couple months to get my character to the place he is, as did my allies on the ship. Now these two guys come along (both were lvls 7 and 5) and become ECL of 16 without doing anything- and they go and destroy my whole guild (basically) with not even the slightest challenge. It makes me really want to just leave the game, but I don't want to be like that. This group I play with is the only one in my area and I've only just started D&D about 2 months ago; I don't want this stuff to ruin everything. I have gotten away with many things, which the DM sometimes sees as me cheating, but it is because I do research on the game and use legit information to defend my side of my arguments. He has never won an argument with me because I use the rules of the game and unbiased information from the text. I am coming to think that I know more about D&D than my DM does, and I have only been playing for a short while. I mean, he goes against things that are vital to the game mechanics: we rarely ever roll initiative, he doesn't use the skill limit of (player level + 3) - which makes certain feats that add skill points useless and a waste, wizards are basically sorcerers- no spellbooks just known spells with no perks to picking a specialized magic school among other things, and other parts of the game as well. He is getting to the point where he acts all powerful just to try and take the quick way out (which he can be if he wants). But reasoning with him and the other players seems like beating a dead horse... It also makes for an unfair game in which people now want to leave. It now seems this problem roots from something more than just two players creating Mind Flayers.
diphycue 05-07-07, 08:57 PM	Okay. An Illithid? It looks like this: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/dx0725tt_tactips_illithid.jpg Thar. Four tentacles, tall as a man. Really really evil, high-tech, and intelligent. They have exactly two attacks: A Mindblast, which is an attack that stuns everyone in a 60-foot cone who fails a will save, and Brain Eating, which requires them to walk right up to you, wrap their tentacles around your head, and suck really really hard. They can planeshift, they can use telepathy, and they can levitate. That's it. Nothing more. Nothing. Got it? It's not stemming from their monster abilities at all. I think we've been fairly clear about that. Go pick up the Monster Manual I. It's one of precisely three essential books, so there's no reason you shouldn't have it. Uhm, according to the MM, they have a few other abilities... and if you go according to the EPH, they have manifesting as a 9th level Psion. Illithids are mean...almost unbeatable if played correctly. However, the way they were working...uhm...no... there's range limits on everything, and creatures can't attack through gates...the things would come through and fall to the ground.
Eikre 05-08-07, 03:27 AM	Illithids are mean...almost unbeatable if played correctly. ...What?
Nephlite 05-08-07, 11:33 AM	Uhm, according to the MM, they have a few other abilities... and if you go according to the EPH, they have manifesting as a 9th level Psion. Illithids are mean...almost unbeatable if played correctly. However, the way they were working...uhm...no... there's range limits on everything, and creatures can't attack through gates...the things would come through and fall to the ground. Same as Wizards: as both have genuis IQs. Illithids are beatable though. Just need Good Will saves and grapples (monks and knights can handle them).
Ack 05-08-07, 12:07 PM	The ship was hovering overhead in a stationary spot but they were thousands of feet below and completely out of range. I spoke with the DM at length about what happened and he told me that this event was not planned by him or part of the main storyline. I asked why they were able to have such powers, which were completely exaggerated, and the DM said that the two players said that they had such powers. I asked if he questioned them and he said no. After the long conversation he decided he would try to resolve this mess at the next session. I hope all goes well and fair. But if he continues to listen to the two Mind Flayers I know what will happen (and this is what will most likely happen)... If my DM disregards what I told him... My ship will crash and be very terribly damaged and confiscated , the time machine will be stolen and all of the valuables inside as well, the people inside (my allies and I) will either be dead or near death, and I also found out that (without me knowing) the Mining Guild Hall as well as the Mining Guild town have been destroyed (beforehand though, so there is no way to change that). I was also told that my DM said that the Mining Guild is no more due to all of the destruction. Everything I created for this guild is now, possibly, destroyed. My DM is being very unfair. I worked hard and spent a lot of time in the past couple months to get my character to the place he is, as did my allies on the ship. Now these two guys come along (both were lvls 7 and 5) and become ECL of 16 without doing anything- and they go and destroy my whole guild (basically) with not even the slightest challenge. It makes me really want to just leave the game, but I don't want to be like that. This group I play with is the only one in my area and I've only just started D&D about 2 months ago; I don't want this stuff to ruin everything. I have gotten away with many things, which the DM sometimes sees as me cheating, but it is because I do research on the game and use legit information to defend my side of my arguments. He has never won an argument with me because I use the rules of the game and unbiased information from the text. I am coming to think that I know more about D&D than my DM does, and I have only been playing for a short while. I mean, he goes against things that are vital to the game mechanics: we rarely ever roll initiative, he doesn't use the skill limit of (player level + 3) - which makes certain feats that add skill points useless and a waste, wizards are basically sorcerers- no spellbooks just known spells with no perks to picking a specialized magic school among other things, and other parts of the game as well. He is getting to the point where he acts all powerful just to try and take the quick way out (which he can be if he wants). But reasoning with him and the other players seems like beating a dead horse... It also makes for an unfair game in which people now want to leave. It now seems this problem roots from something more than just two players creating Mind Flayers. Yeah ... it seems to be based in a situation where the GM doesn't know the rules all that well, and keeps getting pwned by someone who does know the rules, and doesn't have any scruples about using that knowledge to advance his character as hard as he can. Which is a frustrating situation for any GM to be in ... much less a relatively new one. While I can empathise with your wish to not have everything you have worked for ruined - why were you bombarding the town anyway? And what's with the time machine? (BIG flashing neon sign saying "These guys have too much gear!")
Phrennzy 05-08-07, 01:55 PM	You have a party with a level 16 and a level 3? And you opponents are players, with mind flayers as their PCs? You have a flying ship made of dark metal, with a time machine on board? This game freakin' rocks! I would jump through the time machine after setting the ship on a crash course straight down. Just make sure you set the Nether-Reactor Core to overload before you put a brick on the gas pedal and jump into the swirling portal. Good luck with the dinosaurs.
Frugal 05-08-07, 02:26 PM	Am I the only one wondering about the level disparity? It now sounds like the OP is level 16 while some of the other players (on the other side) are mentioned as being level 5 and 7 :confused: (before becoming Mind Flayers). Or for that matter, how is the OP up to level 16 after only 2 months of playing? I think the big mistake the DM has made is allowing inter-party conflict to go this far. I'm all for allowing a little conflict but this is to the point where there is no single party any more and PCs are openly fighting each other on different sides of a conflict, that's going too far. A major issue with this as well is the OP mentions working hard for what he's earned, and maybe he has, but by allowing 2 sides (essentially 2 parties) it allows for this type of power imbalance to happen. XP differences (such as from dying) generally work themselves out in a cohesive party but they'll just exacerbate in a separated group. I mean just from the basics, if you have a party member who's down a level or 2 the rest of the party will likely protect him and help him out, if the PCs are fighting then the other side will likely target him since he's weaker, which will just put him down another level, and so on. The other thing is it sounds like at least some of the players can't handle in-party conflict. If that's the case then the DM should seriously consider running a new campaign and explicitly say no evil PCs (if you turn evil you become an NPC). It sounds like the players are turning in-game conflict into an out of game issue, coming back as cheating overpowered characters to take revenge is not a good idea. What the DM could have done was used those PC deaths so say, "okay, that's taken care of that issue, it's over with, now let's get back to a cohesive party again and move off, I don't want to see any revenge from what happens in this." Honestly, from what I've heard about this campaign it sounds like there are way more problems than this illithid problem.
celtredleg 05-08-07, 08:34 PM	To the OP, have you thought of gathering the guys on your side and starting your own game, and let the DM and his two buds do thier own thing?? Thats how I wound up DMing several times. The DM just could not run a fair consistant game. So set up your own. Havce fun, see how it goes. And learn from this one. Playing favorites is bad. PvP is most of the time bad. Evil PCs are most of the time bad. It sounds like fun, but these things are more often than not game killers. As you have now seen.
Frugal 05-08-07, 08:46 PM	To the OP, have you thought of gathering the guys on your side and starting your own game, and let the DM and his two buds do thier own thing?? This is true, you DM's game is the only game in town until you go and form your own game.
steakandeggs 05-08-07, 09:48 PM	While I can empathise with your wish to not have everything you have worked for ruined - why were you bombarding the town anyway? And what's with the time machine? (BIG flashing neon sign saying "These guys have too much gear!") We were bombarding the town because it was magically weak in the military department and the paladin who has been trying to destroy us was there. Also, we just wanted to destroy a city; a chaotic evil decision perhaps. The time machine is a very important artifact that is deeply involved in the main storyline of the campaign, so someone needs to have it. It just so happens that my allies and I did. The main villain has an artifact that is the root of all magic EVER so he gave us the magical flying ship if we agreed to follow him and do his bidding, which we accepted but we will eventually turn on him because he wants to rule the universe. The time machine is limited however, it can only go back and forth years at a time and certain things cannot be done due to rules of time travel that my DM has created. Like we can't kill a bunch of things in one year, get a butt-load of XP and go back in time and repeat ourselves since that is incredibly unfair. So there are restrictions- and rightfully so. You have a party with a level 16 and a level 3? And you opponents are players, with mind flayers as their PCs? You have a flying ship made of dark metal, with a time machine on board? This game freakin' rocks! I would jump through the time machine after setting the ship on a crash course straight down. Just make sure you set the Nether-Reactor Core to overload before you put a brick on the gas pedal and jump into the swirling portal. Good luck with the dinosaurs. I would do the same thing except the mind blast attacks leave us stunned for a looooooong time, especially since 28 of these guys came through the portal and ALL attacked. To which I would explain how unfair that is but you can just re-read this whole thread to get the gist of things. Once again, thank you for all the input. I've never, on any message board, had a thread get so much attention. :D P.S. We already fought dinosaurs, back when I was only a mere level 2... It wasn't a pretty sight, everyone stomped into mush. Ick.
steakandeggs 05-08-07, 09:56 PM	Am I the only one wondering about the level disparity? It now sounds like the OP is level 16 while some of the other players (on the other side) are mentioned as being level 5 and 7 :confused: (before becoming Mind Flayers). Or for that matter, how is the OP up to level 16 after only 2 months of playing? I think the big mistake the DM has made is allowing inter-party conflict to go this far. I'm all for allowing a little conflict but this is to the point where there is no single party any more and PCs are openly fighting each other on different sides of a conflict, that's going too far. A major issue with this as well is the OP mentions working hard for what he's earned, and maybe he has, but by allowing 2 sides (essentially 2 parties) it allows for this type of power imbalance to happen. XP differences (such as from dying) generally work themselves out in a cohesive party but they'll just exacerbate in a separated group. I mean just from the basics, if you have a party member who's down a level or 2 the rest of the party will likely protect him and help him out, if the PCs are fighting then the other side will likely target him since he's weaker, which will just put him down another level, and so on. The other thing is it sounds like at least some of the players can't handle in-party conflict. If that's the case then the DM should seriously consider running a new campaign and explicitly say no evil PCs (if you turn evil you become an NPC). It sounds like the players are turning in-game conflict into an out of game issue, coming back as cheating overpowered characters to take revenge is not a good idea. What the DM could have done was used those PC deaths so say, "okay, that's taken care of that issue, it's over with, now let's get back to a cohesive party again and move off, I don't want to see any revenge from what happens in this." Honestly, from what I've heard about this campaign it sounds like there are way more problems than this illithid problem. I agree with most of what you just said but would like to mention that this group I play with, we are all part of this game as an afterschool club sort of thing, so we have had many meetings and sometimes people don't come but I have been quite active in the club. The level disparity is there because every new person to the club starts at level one, just as everyone else did. But I do wholly agree that the rivalries should end. I think that alignments should not matter and everyone should be considered True Neutral and must not kill each other (a lot) ;) I'm going to show this whole thread to my DM, I believe that what you have just posted, along with the other posts, could give him an idea of what is going on and perhaps help fix our campaign.
steakandeggs 05-08-07, 10:03 PM	To the OP, have you thought of gathering the guys on your side and starting your own game, and let the DM and his two buds do thier own thing?? Thats how I wound up DMing several times. The DM just could not run a fair consistant game. So set up your own. Havce fun, see how it goes. And learn from this one. Playing favorites is bad. PvP is most of the time bad. Evil PCs are most of the time bad. It sounds like fun, but these things are more often than not game killers. As you have now seen. I have been told by a few members that I could be a good DM. I actually tried it today with fairly good results. I did not have access to any text resources because they are all .pdf files on my PC at home but I managed to have everyone create basic characters; all level one- an even playing field. I started everyone out in the ocean on a pirate ship saying that they were held captive for quite some time and now is their chance to change their destinies. Very simple beginning with just fistfights and a few puzzles, due to the lack of text resources, but I was told that everyone enjoyed themselves and in the end that all that matters.
DyloniusFunk 05-08-07, 11:09 PM	My DM is being very unfair. I worked hard and spent a lot of time in the past couple months to get my character to the place he is, as did my allies on the ship. Now these two guys come along (both were lvls 7 and 5) and become ECL of 16 without doing anything- and they go and destroy my whole guild (basically) with not even the slightest challenge. It makes me really want to just leave the game, but I don't want to be like that. This group I play with is the only one in my area and I've only just started D&D about 2 months ago; I don't want this stuff to ruin everything. Do you think you are the only person who has worked to get thier character leveled up/ what about the guys you admited helping kill off? Maybe i'm biased since my Cleric character was killed by my supposed allies in my Eberron game, but i have no patience for childish PvP dren. My character was killed because one oif the characters was CE and didn't like me, even though i healed her first, and the other one was NE and a shelfish twit who didn't like not being the center of attention. So i wish my DM had let me become a Mind Flayer and get soe payback. To quote Will Smith in Men In Black "Don't start nothin, won't be nothin"
diphycue 05-08-07, 11:13 PM	...What? As I said, If played correctly... I've had illithids as major villians in several games I've ran, and I have yet had a party kill one...only once was the illithid ever even injured, and that was luck. Illithids are geniuses, long lived, masters of psionic magic, and have dozens of slaves to call upon. Do you really think a Mind Flayer would put himself in danger if he doesn't have to? Hat of Disguise on a thrall, route your Telepathy through the thrall, the party kills the thrall, thinking they got you...Greater Invisibility mind blast until everyone is stunned (good for fairly low level encounters, CR 9)...make clones of yourself just in case... I mean, there's TONS of stuff an Illithid can do...and they are smart enough to plan ahead, and evil enough to not care what lines they have to cross to survive. Admittedly, I'm a bit biased, they are my FAVORITE monster...I like using them in my games, I like playing them...
steakandeggs 05-08-07, 11:27 PM	Do you think you are the only person who has worked to get thier character leveled up/ what about the guys you admited helping kill off? Maybe i'm biased since my Cleric character was killed by my supposed allies in my Eberron game, but i have no patience for childish PvP dren. My character was killed because one oif the characters was CE and didn't like me, even though i healed her first, and the other one was NE and a shelfish twit who didn't like not being the center of attention. So i wish my DM had let me become a Mind Flayer and get soe payback. To quote Will Smith in Men In Black "Don't start nothin, won't be nothin" The guys I killed off knew that treason against the guild was punishable by death and yet they still did it. They could have kept using those same characters that died, if the DM allowed them to somehow resurrect which I'm sure he would have, and they would have only suffer a 10,000 XP loss- since that is my DM's usual death penalty, unless he says otherwise. But those two guys decided to try and beat the system by making Mind Flayers instead of keeping their original characters. Two wrongs don't make a right. So making a character that more or less beats the system and is horribly unbalanced, just for revenge, makes the situation even worse.
Mock26 05-08-07, 11:35 PM	Recently some guys, in the D&D game I'm in, died. They decided to make new players instead of take penalties towards their current characters. So they made Illithids (Mind Flayers) and they wanted to get revenge on the people who killed their previous characters- my allies along with myself. These players, now Mind Flayers, proceded to attack my friends and I while we were thousands of feet above a city in a magical airship. Granted, we were raining cannonfire upon the innocent city but that aside, shouldn't they have a range for their spells? I mean, they summoned portal openings in which an army of Mind Flayer tentacle things burst out (about 30 of them) and penetrated straight through our ships defenses, went straight to attacking my allies and I without giving us a chance to do anything in retalliation. By the way, these two Mind Flayer characters (who are thousands of feet below- on the ground) are only level ONE. These tentacle things proceeded to use their attacks, without myself or anyone else on the ship getting a chance to do anything at all. So their attacks don't do damage but basically perma-stun everyone. The session ended there because people had to leave, but now I know that my friends and I are going to get completely owned at the next session since we are permanently stunned. The way I see it is that these new level one Illithids are either insanely overpowered or my DM is very gullible/stupid. It gets me very frustrated because my allies and I are evil, and it seems that my DM lets these grossly overpowered things go on as a sort of karma for us evil players- which is wrong and biased. So any advice on Illithids (Mind Flayers) or on how I can resolve this imbalance of power would be greatly appreciated. I think it is a bigger problem that they would come in with new characters hades bent on revenging old characters, whom their new characters wouldn't have known. That's petty metagaming at it's pettiest.
pmurray@bigpond.com 05-09-07, 12:45 AM	I'm a very chill/laid back person but when people try to cheat and do things like this nonsense I will not just sit back and let it happen. It's unfair to everyone in the game, not just myself. I had a similar problem. One of our group is a warlock with Baleful Utterance, which basically works like a shatter spell. We had reached (the DM and the other players) the conclusion, somehow, that a) this spell could shatter a held weapon (when the spell says it only shatters small, brittle objects) and b) fort save or be stunned (which the spell simply does not mention. At all. All it says is that it will do damage to crystal golems) Now, I have to admit that it was majorly ****ing me off that another level-1 character in our group had an at-will disintegrate and power word stun spell. God knows, I'm a powergamer myself. But these are, like, sixth level spells. I am sure (completely positive) they weren't deliberately cheating. What I do think is that the player simply had not read the damn spell description, in a group where we generally trust player to know what their characters can do, and where everyone give me a rough time if I hesitate for a moment about the range and duration of my spells. Last week came the question: can baleful utterance open a locked door by shattering the lock? I think everyone finally realised that as we were playing it, it was overpowered. Now, here's what I did - ok? I did not lay down the way it is and get all petulant ot triumphant about it. I just said "read the spell description" until they finally did it, and didn't make a big fuss about it. Yes, the group decided that a spell that will powder grandma's porcelain knick-knacks will not nessesarily disable an iron-bound door. I hope there's less nonsense now. Hope so, anyway.
Solo_Phoenix 05-09-07, 01:06 AM	I had a similar problem. One of our group is a warlock with Baleful Utterance, which basically works like a shatter spell. We had reached (the DM and the other players) the conclusion, somehow, that a) this spell could shatter a held weapon (when the spell says it only shatters small, brittle objects) and b) fort save or be stunned (which the spell simply does not mention. At all. All it says is that it will do damage to crystal golems) Now, I have to admit that it was majorly ****ing me off that another level-1 character in our group had an at-will disintegrate and power word stun spell. God knows, I'm a powergamer myself. But these are, like, sixth level spells. I am sure (completely positive) they weren't deliberately cheating. What I do think is that the player simply had not read the damn spell description, in a group where we generally trust player to know what their characters can do, and where everyone give me a rough time if I hesitate for a moment about the range and duration of my spells. Last week came the question: can baleful utterance open a locked door by shattering the lock? I think everyone finally realised that as we were playing it, it was overpowered. Now, here's what I did - ok? I did not lay down the way it is and get all petulant ot triumphant about it. I just said "read the spell description" until they finally did it, and didn't make a big fuss about it. Yes, the group decided that a spell that will powder grandma's porcelain knick-knacks will not nessesarily disable an iron-bound door. I hope there's less nonsense now. Hope so, anyway. "Alternatively, you can target shatter against a single solid object, regardless of composition, weighing up to 10 pounds per caster level." Sounds like you need to read the spell description more carefully before jumping to conclusions. Also, if you read the invocation description, you see that if someone is holding or wearing the shattered object, they need to make a fortitude save to avoid being dazed and deafened.
Derren S. 05-09-07, 02:09 AM	Illithids are geniuses, long lived, masters of psionic magic, and have dozens of slaves to call upon. Do you really think a Mind Flayer would put himself in danger if he doesn't have to? Hat of Disguise on a thrall, route your Telepathy through the thrall, the party kills the thrall, thinking they got you...Greater Invisibility mind blast until everyone is stunned (good for fairly low level encounters, CR 9)...make clones of yourself just in case... Actually they do not have that much psionic power. The MM mind flayers only have some spell like abilites and no manifester levels at all. And the psionic ones only have medicore abilities. And they do not have any racial ability to keep thralls.
pmurray@bigpond.com 05-09-07, 03:26 AM	Sounds like you need to read the spell description more carefully before jumping to conclusions. Also, if you read the invocation description, Damn, you're right. I feel better now. Spell description (PHB, p278): Close range. 1) Area attack. 5ft radius. affects any number of nonmagical brittle objects, 1lb/level 2) Single object egardless of composition. (no mention that it has to be nonmagical) 10 lb/level. 3) Crystal creatures. 1d6/lev (max 10, fort save 1/2). Invocation description (CA, p132): Affects an object or area (ie: not usable against crystaline creatures) If a creature is holding or waearing, and the item is destroyed, Fort save. Dazed 1 round (not stunned), Deafened 10 rounds.
Frugal 05-09-07, 08:11 AM	The level disparity is there because every new person to the club starts at level one, just as everyone else did. But I do wholly agree that the rivalries should end. I think that alignments should not matter and everyone should be considered True Neutral and must not kill each other (a lot) ;) Okay, this is just completely wrong and such a bad idea it's not even funny. Even in a party where everyone is working together this is a bad idea. When you're 1st level even someone a couple of levels higher will completely outshine you and you'll have a ridiculously hard time staying alive long enough to catch up. I'm away from my books but I'm pretty sure the DMG has some guidelines for this. Off the top of my head I'd say any of the following should be reasonably acceptable: Start at a level equal to the average level of the party Start at a level 1 less than the average level of the party Start at a level equal to the lowest level PC Start at a level 1 less than the lowest PC's level I put the 1 level lower options in just because that's then very similar to how you handle a dead PC. Think about this for a minute, you're now at 16th level, if a new player joins tomorrow he's at level 1, anything that's even remotely an appropriate challenge for you will completely annihilate that character in 1 hit. The 1st level player won't even be able to hit anything you're fighting, let alone hope to bypass things like DR. They could have kept using those same characters that died, if the DM allowed them to somehow resurrect which I'm sure he would have, and they would have only suffer a 10,000 XP loss- since that is my DM's usual death penalty, unless he says otherwise. But those two guys decided to try and beat the system by making Mind Flayers instead of keeping their original characters. Why is he completely ignoring the standard penalties for dying? 10,000 XP is a huge loss at low levels and completely insignificant at higher levels. If I'm at a low level that could take me down multiple levels. Why not just follow what the DMG says and use the standard 1 level loss? Incidentally, it also recommends if the player wants to start a new PC instead that it start at 1 level less than the PC who died, the same as if the dead PC were ressed, this is to prevent players from gaining an advantage by replacing a dead character with a new character. Even if your DM insists on continuing to follow this penalty he would be well advised to still follow the DMG guideline that a replacement character start at the same point.
Nephlite 05-09-07, 12:13 PM	As I said, If played correctly... I've had illithids as major villians in several games I've ran, and I have yet had a party kill one...only once was the illithid ever even injured, and that was luck. My Phrenic Psion/Monk killed one: Almost got away. Lucky monks are fast. Illithids are geniuses, long lived, masters of psionic magic, and have dozens of slaves to call upon. Do you really think a Mind Flayer would put himself in danger if he doesn't have to? Hat of Disguise on a thrall, route your Telepathy through the thrall, the party kills the thrall, thinking they got you...Greater Invisibility mind blast until everyone is stunned (good for fairly low level encounters, CR 9)...make clones of yourself just in case... Charm monster not dominate (look them up). Unless these are archillithids or something: no dominate. So they hacev mninions but they are just really good friends that serve them. No G. Invis (not a class ability). Your can't make clones (Wizard/Sorc only). I mean, there's TONS of stuff an Illithid can do...and they are smart enough to plan ahead, and evil enough to not care what lines they have to cross to survive. Admittedly, I'm a bit biased, they are my FAVORITE monster...I like using them in my games, I like playing them... You just described a Wizard (same Int score). And the Wizard actually can do this.
PhaedrusXY 05-09-07, 12:16 PM	Is your DM 8 years old or something?
Pangeon 05-09-07, 03:43 PM	Seems like you're on the right track. Start your own campaign (sans the Mind Flayer players) and have a good time.
steakandeggs 05-06-07, 09:29 AM	Recently some guys, in the D&D game I'm in, died. They decided to make new players instead of take penalties towards their current characters. So they made Illithids (Mind Flayers) and they wanted to get revenge on the people who killed their previous characters- my allies along with myself. These players, now Mind Flayers, proceded to attack my friends and I while we were thousands of feet above a city in a magical airship. Granted, we were raining cannonfire upon the innocent city but that aside, shouldn't they have a range for their spells? I mean, they summoned portal openings in which an army of Mind Flayer tentacle things burst out (about 30 of them) and penetrated straight through our ships defenses, went straight to attacking my allies and I without giving us a chance to do anything in retalliation. By the way, these two Mind Flayer characters (who are thousands of feet below- on the ground) are only level ONE. These tentacle things proceeded to use their attacks, without myself or anyone else on the ship getting a chance to do anything at all. So their attacks don't do damage but basically perma-stun everyone. The session ended there because people had to leave, but now I know that my friends and I are going to get completely owned at the next session since we are permanently stunned. The way I see it is that these new level one Illithids are either insanely overpowered or my DM is very gullible/stupid. It gets me very frustrated because my allies and I are evil, and it seems that my DM lets these grossly overpowered things go on as a sort of karma for us evil players- which is wrong and biased. So any advice on Illithids (Mind Flayers) or on how I can resolve this imbalance of power would be greatly appreciated.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 05-06-07, 09:32 AM	Is the Dm enforcing racial HD and LA? Because a base Mind Flayer is a 15th level character.
Ulandorf_TheBlue 05-06-07, 09:43 AM	aren't Mind Flayers LA +7? They have plane shift, but I still don't see how they could attack through the portal. Guess I haven't used that spell/power much. Mind Blast lasts for 3d4 rounds on a failed save...so it isn't permanent. Sounds like something screwy is going on.
runestar 05-06-07, 09:48 AM	Yes. LA+7, for a final ECL of 15 when you factor in its 8 racial HD, since ECL is by definition HD+LA...:D
steakandeggs 05-06-07, 09:48 AM	I don't know what my DM is doing. I think the two players, who are now Mind Flayers, weaseled their way into becoming this race. I think they lied to him and said that a Mind Flayer is level one but is just really really really powerful and our DM believed them. The players took the info from books the DM doesn't own and has never even read so I suppose he just took their word. About the Mind Blast thing, their are about 30 of these tentacle things, each with a Mind Blast attack so... If the DM allows the attack to continue, all five of us on this ship are screwed. by the way, thanks for the quick replies
RobbyPants 05-06-07, 10:18 AM	I don't know what my DM is doing. I think the two players, who are now Mind Flayers, weaseled their way into becoming this race. I think they lied to him and said that a Mind Flayer is level one but is just really really really powerful and our DM believed them. The players took the info from books the DM doesn't own and has never even read so I suppose he just took their word. About the Mind Blast thing, their are about 30 of these tentacle things, each with a Mind Blast attack so... If the DM allows the attack to continue, all five of us on this ship are screwed. by the way, thanks for the quick replies Well, the DM's being a noob for just letting them use stuff that he doesn't own, and then taking their word for it. What level is the rest of the group (not counting the mind flayers)? As everyone has said, without class levels, these guys will count as 15th level PCs. If they're level 1, they'll count as 16th level. Does your DM understand the rules of level adjustments (LA) and effective character level (ECL)?
Lotus Crane 05-06-07, 10:28 AM	When the ECL rules are properly applied, illithids are not nearly that powerful in comparison to normal PC's. In fact, they're probably weaker. Those two using illithids are blatantly lying, cheating, and taking advantage of an ignorant DM. Demand that they actually bring in the books that they're taking the rules for illithids from and show them to the DM. In case they refuse to (for fear of being exposed), print out this thread and bring it to your game.
steakandeggs 05-06-07, 10:54 AM	My group consists of a myself (level 16) and 4 others (levels 15, 12, 12, and 3). The enemies of ours include a level 18 (who gained 6 levels suspiciously fast) and two "level one" Mind Flayers. I don't think my DM knows much about LAs or ECLs. He knows a lot about D&D in general but is very sketchy with the specific technical things. And yes, one could say he is ignorant, which is okay because are whole group is very new to playing so we try to pool our information. But when people take advantage of his ignorance and preach lies, that is when I have a problem with his ignorance of the game. One of the two Illithid players has Underdark I believe, as well as the complete psionic book. So the info they are using is probably a mixture of those two books and their own power-hungry minds, so it seems.
Naderion 05-06-07, 02:02 PM	Even if the Illithids are by the book, I don't think they have any means to do the things that have been described. Sounds much to me like DM ex Machina and the dm wants you to lose this battle without making rolls. The only thing they can really do with no class levels is to use their mind blast, which has a range limit of 60 ft. and allows a DC 17 Will save. Plane shift only allows them to travel to an alternate plane, but not to teleport on the plane they are currently on. Their levitation ability allows them to rise 20 feet into the air per round, so it would be about 47 rounds or more than four and a half minutes until they are high enough to target something in 1000 ft. hight, but I suppose an airship is far to fast for them to catch up. There are no other abilities normal Illithids have. What you described sounds much more like something a character with 17 or 18 levels in wizard could do, but as level 16 characters yourself, you should have a good chance to make some Will saves aginst everything they could hurl at you.
Tevin Kevlak 05-06-07, 02:25 PM	Like they said earlier the players are taking your DM for a ride/your DM just wants you to lose. Illithids with 1 class level can't "create portal and attack with tentacles through them" and even if they could their mind blast is an area spell, it's not triggered when hit by their tentacle and they can only use it once per illithid not once per tentacle. Call shenanigans on the whole lot of them and if thins don't change, and I mean quick, just leave the game because only 2 of the player's are actually having any fun. Can I ask why it is the DM has players pitted against each other from 2 different factions in the game anyway?
Jaxgaret 05-06-07, 02:41 PM	Can I ask why it is the DM has players pitted against each other from 2 different factions in the game anyway? Because the OP is a troll. It's pretty obvious that, if what was stated in the OP were true, it is an OOG problem, not an IG one. Therefore, the OP's assumption that it is in IG problem reeks of trolldom. Either that or blind naivete.
Maraxus 05-06-07, 03:06 PM	To me, it sounds like the OP was cut-scene-owned for the first time and got traumatized from it. :)
steakandeggs 05-06-07, 04:23 PM	All of the players, including myself, are friends out-of-game. It's things like cheating and deceiving that make the in-game world affect real life. I'm a very chill/laid back person but when people try to cheat and do things like this nonsense I will not just sit back and let it happen. It's unfair to everyone in the game, not just myself. And to answer Tevin Kevlak: The DM didn't pit us against each other necessarily. It was us, the players, who created the in-game rivalry and I am one to believe that the DM has sympathy for the side against mine because my allies and I have been doing very well for a few weeks now. My DM likes things to be balanced but it seems his idea of balancing is to throw power back and forth between the two rival sides. And with these new Mind Flayers, it looks as if the power will never get thrown back because of their horribly exaggerated abilities. I will show this thread to my DM in hopes that will put an end to the cheating of these two players. Thank you everyone for your input and help. :) Anymore input on this matter would still be appreciated.
Tevin Kevlak 05-06-07, 06:30 PM	Well how did this rivlry between you start and why did they continue the rivalry even after their characters died... and are they evil as well? It seems strange that they wouldn't be being illitihds and all... I'd also like to throw out there that having two seperate "teams" of players working against each other typically doesn't make for a good game. Dnd is all about team work not teams working against each other because situations, like the one you described can happen all too easily. One player kills the other and the DM is called out as cheating or playing favorites even if that might not be the case... it also promotes meta-gaming as you'll typically be able to deduce what your enemies (who are sitting across for you) are going to do/what abilities they possess and all you need to do is figure out a way to overcome that.
steakandeggs 05-06-07, 07:26 PM	1) About Illithids: I don't know much of anything about Illithids but the characters who are Illithids claimed that Mind Flayers are somewhat holy and "can't attack without a reason". That is what they told me. It seems, from what I have researched and from I can infer from this thread, what they told me is a load of dookie. 2) About the rivalry situation: I started a guild and hoped for everyone to join and be all honky-dory. But the others opposed the guild. The guild is, at it's core, evil- although it wasn't originally. So the other players who were good didn't want to be affiliated. Which is their prerogative, they can do what they want. But these two players (now Mind Flayers) joined the guild and plotted against it and in our guild charter it states that "treason is punishable by death". So we carried out the law of the guild. I told them they could rejoin with new characters or make amends with their current ones but they decided to make an alliance with the paladin player in our game and try to destroy my guild because we killed them and we are evil. 3) About meta-gaming: I try very hard to actually play the role of my PC, while the others in the game do not. Such is the case with the Mind Flayers who wanted revenge for the death of their previous characters. These new PCs didn't know the old PCs or have anything to do with them so where is the motive for attacking myself and my companions? 4) About the "DM playing favorites": I have asked my DM "Why is this imbalanced crap happening to my allies and I?" to which he replies "You guys have been doing so many evil things and these are the consequences." In my opinion, that is wrong. I know the DM makes up the challenges and the results of situations but the consequences should be balanced just like everything in the game should be. Their are pros and cons to being Good or Evil, not just for being the bad guy. Thanks again for the input :D
FatMonkey13 05-06-07, 08:25 PM	How do you know the mind flayer's created the portal? They could have used an item, hired someone to do it for them, or your 18th level enemy could have done it for them. The problem does not seem to be the 2 Mind Flayers but rather that there are 28 other mind flayers on the ship. 28 Mind Flayers, and 2 Mind Flayer 1st level Psions will have an EL of 20. But the two Mind Flayer 1st level characters have better gear and stats than a normal mind flayer. There is also the level 18 enemy (is he there?) who would add at least 1 to the EL of this encounter. Your party has an level of 14.3 (party level) assuming that you do not have level adjustment or racial HD so it seems that this should be a very difficult or almost unbeatable encounter if run by the book.
steakandeggs 05-06-07, 09:40 PM	How do you know the mind flayer's created the portal? They could have used an item, hired someone to do it for them, or your 18th level enemy could have done it for them. The problem does not seem to be the 2 Mind Flayers but rather that there are 28 other mind flayers on the ship. 28 Mind Flayers, and 2 Mind Flayer 1st level Psions will have an EL of 20. But the two Mind Flayer 1st level characters have better gear and stats than a normal mind flayer. There is also the level 18 enemy (is he there?) who would add at least 1 to the EL of this encounter. Your party has an level of 14.3 (party level) assuming that you do not have level adjustment or racial HD so it seems that this should be a very difficult or almost unbeatable encounter if run by the book. I know what they did because they announced every action. They announced that they opened the portals, which the DM allowed without question because he took every work of these Mind Flayer guys as truth. I questioned it but the DM wouldn't let me argue. I failed to mention this in previous posts but we cast an antimagic field below the ship so any spells cast up towards it would be blocked. Just mentioning it in case it can help my complaint <---(lack of a better word). No outside source was used in this attack, the level 18 was trying to command catapults and the city defenses but that is the only outside source. So they opened portals around the ship, which was thousands of feet above them, and large tentacles shot out into the ship (even though the ship is made of a dark magical metal). If Mind Flayers or any sort of bipedal humanoid creatures came out of the portals, the DM should have clarified, but he did not. The DM and the two PC Mind Flayers said that "tentacles shot out of the portals", they did not say "tentacle faced creatures came out/mind flayers came out/odd creatures came out", they said "tentacles". These two PC Mind Flayers had just finished creating these new characters, so they would not have any special items that could attack a ship that is in the sky with portal openings. Some of the main things I have problems with are: What spell did they use for the portals, because the two players both stated it was a spell? Don't spells have ranges? No other character got to be a race other than the standard ones in the PHB, why did they get to be Illithids? Why wouldn't the DM be suspicious of errors/foul play, considering these Mind Flayers are only level one but have incredibly powerful abilities? (my DM doesn't know much about LAs or ECLs, I will inform him of those things) I'm getting too worked up over this...
Nephlite 05-06-07, 10:13 PM	I failed to mention this in previous posts but we cast an antimagic field below the ship so any spells cast up towards it would be blocked. Just mentioning it in case it can help my complaint <---(lack of a better word). Antimagic field doesn't stop spells from going over/around you only on you. So they cast above you/beside the field So they opened portals around the ship, which was thousands of feet above them, and large tentacles shot out into the ship (even though the ship is made of a dark magical metal). If Mind Flayers or any sort of bipedal humanoid creatures came out of the portals, the DM should have clarified, but he did not. The DM and the two PC Mind Flayers said that "tentacles shot out of the portals", they did not say "tentacle faced creatures came out/mind flayers came out/odd creatures came out", they said "tentacles". a. The creature has not fully emerged yet. He just saw you and attacked: he'll be out soon enough - (be careful it is not Cthulhu, though as their caster is too low; he'd be uncontrollable and may kill them next after you). b. They invented a new spell (epic spell?) c. They were bluffing and the DM took them up on their bluff. These two PC Mind Flayers had just finished creating these new characters, so they would not have any special items that could attack a ship that is in the sky with portal openings. Yes, they could. If they really are Mindflayers +1 character level: they have wealth of a 16th level person. With Use Magic Device or level 1 Wizard/Sorceror, they can use a Scroll or Staff (either will work). How? Gate. The Grand-daddy of all callings. It can open portals to other places (as they did) and grants control (for 1 rd/level, if they want longer service, they need to offer the creature payment). It is a 9th level spell: around 3.5k for the scroll + the Exp cost in gold (maybe another 1000) so around 4.5 K for one. Some of the main things I have problems with are: What spell did they use for the portals, because the two players both stated it was a spell? Only spell possible is gate. Don't spells have ranges? Yep. No other character got to be a race other than the standard ones in the PHB, why did they get to be Illithids? He wanted it for the story to work? Why wouldn't the DM be suspicious of errors/foul play, considering these Mind Flayers are only level one but have incredibly powerful abilities? (my DM doesn't know much about LAs or ECLs, I will inform him of those things) They are Mindflayer +1 level. Think of an Ogre. 4 HD right off the bat. Add in LA which is 2. To have a Level 1 Ogre (I asume this term means with level 1 character class) is ECL 7.
steakandeggs 05-06-07, 10:40 PM	I figured the antimagic field was irrelevant, I just wanted to know if it could have stopped it. Which you answered no. I don't know why but my DM doesn't use things such as "level wealth" (among other things) and I know for a fact that Mind Flayers are not part of his campaign storyline because he didn't even know about them until the two players who wanted to be them brought them up. And about the tentacles that went into the ship. The portals were outside of the ship and these large tentacles shot out from the portals into the ship. How long are the tentacles of an Illithid? Long enough, fast enough, strong enough to come in from 10+ feet outside of a ship, through the metal siding, into the main hold, and attack everyone inside before we could even blink? Also, please tell me what the range for a gate spell is.
WizO_Cat 05-06-07, 11:04 PM	Moved to "What's a Player to Do" board.
Eikre 05-07-07, 01:06 AM	Okay. An Illithid? It looks like this: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/dx0725tt_tactips_illithid.jpg Thar. Four tentacles, tall as a man. Really really evil, high-tech, and intelligent. They have exactly two attacks: A Mindblast, which is an attack that stuns everyone in a 60-foot cone who fails a will save, and Brain Eating, which requires them to walk right up to you, wrap their tentacles around your head, and suck really really hard. They can planeshift, they can use telepathy, and they can levitate. That's it. Nothing more. Nothing. Got it? It's not stemming from their monster abilities at all. I think we've been fairly clear about that. Go pick up the Monster Manual I. It's one of precisely three essential books, so there's no reason you shouldn't have it.
Matthew77 05-07-07, 12:48 PM	Gate (which is the only spell I can think of that would produce an effect like "opening a portal and tentacle monsters come out") has a range of medium, 100 feet +10 feet per caster level. Also, the portal is stationary, so if the ship was moving, it would rapidly leave the portal behind. My advice to you is to have a private chat with the DM. First, ask if these tentacle things are just some sort of plot device to move the story along. If they are, just accept the fact that you have no real way of fighting back, and see what the result is. If the DM insists that these portals and tentacles are the result of actions by the Ilithid PCs, politely explain that you don't understand how they got these powers, and ask the DM to recheck the actions taken by the Ilithids to ensure that they aren't bending or misinterpreting any rules.
Callista 05-07-07, 03:24 PM	Looks like you've got a bunch of newbie players being taken advantage by a couple of munchkins. Ask your DM to let you play an ECL 15 character, too. It's only fair. But honestly, with a couple of guys who insist on playing illithids in a level-1 game, I don't see this coming out too well.
chava 05-07-07, 03:36 PM	Looks like you've got a bunch of newbie players being taken advantage by a couple of munchkins. Ask your DM to let you play an ECL 15 character, too. It's only fair. But honestly, with a couple of guys who insist on playing illithids in a level-1 game, I don't see this coming out too well. The OP is a level 16 character.
steakandeggs 05-07-07, 06:18 PM	Gate (which is the only spell I can think of that would produce an effect like "opening a portal and tentacle monsters come out") has a range of medium, 100 feet +10 feet per caster level. Also, the portal is stationary, so if the ship was moving, it would rapidly leave the portal behind. My advice to you is to have a private chat with the DM. First, ask if these tentacle things are just some sort of plot device to move the story along. If they are, just accept the fact that you have no real way of fighting back, and see what the result is. If the DM insists that these portals and tentacles are the result of actions by the Ilithid PCs, politely explain that you don't understand how they got these powers, and ask the DM to recheck the actions taken by the Ilithids to ensure that they aren't bending or misinterpreting any rules. The ship was hovering overhead in a stationary spot but they were thousands of feet below and completely out of range. I spoke with the DM at length about what happened and he told me that this event was not planned by him or part of the main storyline. I asked why they were able to have such powers, which were completely exaggerated, and the DM said that the two players said that they had such powers. I asked if he questioned them and he said no. After the long conversation he decided he would try to resolve this mess at the next session. I hope all goes well and fair. But if he continues to listen to the two Mind Flayers I know what will happen (and this is what will most likely happen)... If my DM disregards what I told him... My ship will crash and be very terribly damaged and confiscated , the time machine will be stolen and all of the valuables inside as well, the people inside (my allies and I) will either be dead or near death, and I also found out that (without me knowing) the Mining Guild Hall as well as the Mining Guild town have been destroyed (beforehand though, so there is no way to change that). I was also told that my DM said that the Mining Guild is no more due to all of the destruction. Everything I created for this guild is now, possibly, destroyed. My DM is being very unfair. I worked hard and spent a lot of time in the past couple months to get my character to the place he is, as did my allies on the ship. Now these two guys come along (both were lvls 7 and 5) and become ECL of 16 without doing anything- and they go and destroy my whole guild (basically) with not even the slightest challenge. It makes me really want to just leave the game, but I don't want to be like that. This group I play with is the only one in my area and I've only just started D&D about 2 months ago; I don't want this stuff to ruin everything. I have gotten away with many things, which the DM sometimes sees as me cheating, but it is because I do research on the game and use legit information to defend my side of my arguments. He has never won an argument with me because I use the rules of the game and unbiased information from the text. I am coming to think that I know more about D&D than my DM does, and I have only been playing for a short while. I mean, he goes against things that are vital to the game mechanics: we rarely ever roll initiative, he doesn't use the skill limit of (player level + 3) - which makes certain feats that add skill points useless and a waste, wizards are basically sorcerers- no spellbooks just known spells with no perks to picking a specialized magic school among other things, and other parts of the game as well. He is getting to the point where he acts all powerful just to try and take the quick way out (which he can be if he wants). But reasoning with him and the other players seems like beating a dead horse... It also makes for an unfair game in which people now want to leave. It now seems this problem roots from something more than just two players creating Mind Flayers.
diphycue 05-07-07, 08:57 PM	Okay. An Illithid? It looks like this: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/dx0725tt_tactips_illithid.jpg Thar. Four tentacles, tall as a man. Really really evil, high-tech, and intelligent. They have exactly two attacks: A Mindblast, which is an attack that stuns everyone in a 60-foot cone who fails a will save, and Brain Eating, which requires them to walk right up to you, wrap their tentacles around your head, and suck really really hard. They can planeshift, they can use telepathy, and they can levitate. That's it. Nothing more. Nothing. Got it? It's not stemming from their monster abilities at all. I think we've been fairly clear about that. Go pick up the Monster Manual I. It's one of precisely three essential books, so there's no reason you shouldn't have it. Uhm, according to the MM, they have a few other abilities... and if you go according to the EPH, they have manifesting as a 9th level Psion. Illithids are mean...almost unbeatable if played correctly. However, the way they were working...uhm...no... there's range limits on everything, and creatures can't attack through gates...the things would come through and fall to the ground.
Eikre 05-08-07, 03:27 AM	Illithids are mean...almost unbeatable if played correctly. ...What?
Nephlite 05-08-07, 11:33 AM	Uhm, according to the MM, they have a few other abilities... and if you go according to the EPH, they have manifesting as a 9th level Psion. Illithids are mean...almost unbeatable if played correctly. However, the way they were working...uhm...no... there's range limits on everything, and creatures can't attack through gates...the things would come through and fall to the ground. Same as Wizards: as both have genuis IQs. Illithids are beatable though. Just need Good Will saves and grapples (monks and knights can handle them).
Ack 05-08-07, 12:07 PM	The ship was hovering overhead in a stationary spot but they were thousands of feet below and completely out of range. I spoke with the DM at length about what happened and he told me that this event was not planned by him or part of the main storyline. I asked why they were able to have such powers, which were completely exaggerated, and the DM said that the two players said that they had such powers. I asked if he questioned them and he said no. After the long conversation he decided he would try to resolve this mess at the next session. I hope all goes well and fair. But if he continues to listen to the two Mind Flayers I know what will happen (and this is what will most likely happen)... If my DM disregards what I told him... My ship will crash and be very terribly damaged and confiscated , the time machine will be stolen and all of the valuables inside as well, the people inside (my allies and I) will either be dead or near death, and I also found out that (without me knowing) the Mining Guild Hall as well as the Mining Guild town have been destroyed (beforehand though, so there is no way to change that). I was also told that my DM said that the Mining Guild is no more due to all of the destruction. Everything I created for this guild is now, possibly, destroyed. My DM is being very unfair. I worked hard and spent a lot of time in the past couple months to get my character to the place he is, as did my allies on the ship. Now these two guys come along (both were lvls 7 and 5) and become ECL of 16 without doing anything- and they go and destroy my whole guild (basically) with not even the slightest challenge. It makes me really want to just leave the game, but I don't want to be like that. This group I play with is the only one in my area and I've only just started D&D about 2 months ago; I don't want this stuff to ruin everything. I have gotten away with many things, which the DM sometimes sees as me cheating, but it is because I do research on the game and use legit information to defend my side of my arguments. He has never won an argument with me because I use the rules of the game and unbiased information from the text. I am coming to think that I know more about D&D than my DM does, and I have only been playing for a short while. I mean, he goes against things that are vital to the game mechanics: we rarely ever roll initiative, he doesn't use the skill limit of (player level + 3) - which makes certain feats that add skill points useless and a waste, wizards are basically sorcerers- no spellbooks just known spells with no perks to picking a specialized magic school among other things, and other parts of the game as well. He is getting to the point where he acts all powerful just to try and take the quick way out (which he can be if he wants). But reasoning with him and the other players seems like beating a dead horse... It also makes for an unfair game in which people now want to leave. It now seems this problem roots from something more than just two players creating Mind Flayers. Yeah ... it seems to be based in a situation where the GM doesn't know the rules all that well, and keeps getting pwned by someone who does know the rules, and doesn't have any scruples about using that knowledge to advance his character as hard as he can. Which is a frustrating situation for any GM to be in ... much less a relatively new one. While I can empathise with your wish to not have everything you have worked for ruined - why were you bombarding the town anyway? And what's with the time machine? (BIG flashing neon sign saying "These guys have too much gear!")
Phrennzy 05-08-07, 01:55 PM	You have a party with a level 16 and a level 3? And you opponents are players, with mind flayers as their PCs? You have a flying ship made of dark metal, with a time machine on board? This game freakin' rocks! I would jump through the time machine after setting the ship on a crash course straight down. Just make sure you set the Nether-Reactor Core to overload before you put a brick on the gas pedal and jump into the swirling portal. Good luck with the dinosaurs.
Frugal 05-08-07, 02:26 PM	Am I the only one wondering about the level disparity? It now sounds like the OP is level 16 while some of the other players (on the other side) are mentioned as being level 5 and 7 :confused: (before becoming Mind Flayers). Or for that matter, how is the OP up to level 16 after only 2 months of playing? I think the big mistake the DM has made is allowing inter-party conflict to go this far. I'm all for allowing a little conflict but this is to the point where there is no single party any more and PCs are openly fighting each other on different sides of a conflict, that's going too far. A major issue with this as well is the OP mentions working hard for what he's earned, and maybe he has, but by allowing 2 sides (essentially 2 parties) it allows for this type of power imbalance to happen. XP differences (such as from dying) generally work themselves out in a cohesive party but they'll just exacerbate in a separated group. I mean just from the basics, if you have a party member who's down a level or 2 the rest of the party will likely protect him and help him out, if the PCs are fighting then the other side will likely target him since he's weaker, which will just put him down another level, and so on. The other thing is it sounds like at least some of the players can't handle in-party conflict. If that's the case then the DM should seriously consider running a new campaign and explicitly say no evil PCs (if you turn evil you become an NPC). It sounds like the players are turning in-game conflict into an out of game issue, coming back as cheating overpowered characters to take revenge is not a good idea. What the DM could have done was used those PC deaths so say, "okay, that's taken care of that issue, it's over with, now let's get back to a cohesive party again and move off, I don't want to see any revenge from what happens in this." Honestly, from what I've heard about this campaign it sounds like there are way more problems than this illithid problem.
celtredleg 05-08-07, 08:34 PM	To the OP, have you thought of gathering the guys on your side and starting your own game, and let the DM and his two buds do thier own thing?? Thats how I wound up DMing several times. The DM just could not run a fair consistant game. So set up your own. Havce fun, see how it goes. And learn from this one. Playing favorites is bad. PvP is most of the time bad. Evil PCs are most of the time bad. It sounds like fun, but these things are more often than not game killers. As you have now seen.
Frugal 05-08-07, 08:46 PM	To the OP, have you thought of gathering the guys on your side and starting your own game, and let the DM and his two buds do thier own thing?? This is true, you DM's game is the only game in town until you go and form your own game.
steakandeggs 05-08-07, 09:48 PM	While I can empathise with your wish to not have everything you have worked for ruined - why were you bombarding the town anyway? And what's with the time machine? (BIG flashing neon sign saying "These guys have too much gear!") We were bombarding the town because it was magically weak in the military department and the paladin who has been trying to destroy us was there. Also, we just wanted to destroy a city; a chaotic evil decision perhaps. The time machine is a very important artifact that is deeply involved in the main storyline of the campaign, so someone needs to have it. It just so happens that my allies and I did. The main villain has an artifact that is the root of all magic EVER so he gave us the magical flying ship if we agreed to follow him and do his bidding, which we accepted but we will eventually turn on him because he wants to rule the universe. The time machine is limited however, it can only go back and forth years at a time and certain things cannot be done due to rules of time travel that my DM has created. Like we can't kill a bunch of things in one year, get a butt-load of XP and go back in time and repeat ourselves since that is incredibly unfair. So there are restrictions- and rightfully so. You have a party with a level 16 and a level 3? And you opponents are players, with mind flayers as their PCs? You have a flying ship made of dark metal, with a time machine on board? This game freakin' rocks! I would jump through the time machine after setting the ship on a crash course straight down. Just make sure you set the Nether-Reactor Core to overload before you put a brick on the gas pedal and jump into the swirling portal. Good luck with the dinosaurs. I would do the same thing except the mind blast attacks leave us stunned for a looooooong time, especially since 28 of these guys came through the portal and ALL attacked. To which I would explain how unfair that is but you can just re-read this whole thread to get the gist of things. Once again, thank you for all the input. I've never, on any message board, had a thread get so much attention. :D P.S. We already fought dinosaurs, back when I was only a mere level 2... It wasn't a pretty sight, everyone stomped into mush. Ick.
steakandeggs 05-08-07, 09:56 PM	Am I the only one wondering about the level disparity? It now sounds like the OP is level 16 while some of the other players (on the other side) are mentioned as being level 5 and 7 :confused: (before becoming Mind Flayers). Or for that matter, how is the OP up to level 16 after only 2 months of playing? I think the big mistake the DM has made is allowing inter-party conflict to go this far. I'm all for allowing a little conflict but this is to the point where there is no single party any more and PCs are openly fighting each other on different sides of a conflict, that's going too far. A major issue with this as well is the OP mentions working hard for what he's earned, and maybe he has, but by allowing 2 sides (essentially 2 parties) it allows for this type of power imbalance to happen. XP differences (such as from dying) generally work themselves out in a cohesive party but they'll just exacerbate in a separated group. I mean just from the basics, if you have a party member who's down a level or 2 the rest of the party will likely protect him and help him out, if the PCs are fighting then the other side will likely target him since he's weaker, which will just put him down another level, and so on. The other thing is it sounds like at least some of the players can't handle in-party conflict. If that's the case then the DM should seriously consider running a new campaign and explicitly say no evil PCs (if you turn evil you become an NPC). It sounds like the players are turning in-game conflict into an out of game issue, coming back as cheating overpowered characters to take revenge is not a good idea. What the DM could have done was used those PC deaths so say, "okay, that's taken care of that issue, it's over with, now let's get back to a cohesive party again and move off, I don't want to see any revenge from what happens in this." Honestly, from what I've heard about this campaign it sounds like there are way more problems than this illithid problem. I agree with most of what you just said but would like to mention that this group I play with, we are all part of this game as an afterschool club sort of thing, so we have had many meetings and sometimes people don't come but I have been quite active in the club. The level disparity is there because every new person to the club starts at level one, just as everyone else did. But I do wholly agree that the rivalries should end. I think that alignments should not matter and everyone should be considered True Neutral and must not kill each other (a lot) ;) I'm going to show this whole thread to my DM, I believe that what you have just posted, along with the other posts, could give him an idea of what is going on and perhaps help fix our campaign.
steakandeggs 05-08-07, 10:03 PM	To the OP, have you thought of gathering the guys on your side and starting your own game, and let the DM and his two buds do thier own thing?? Thats how I wound up DMing several times. The DM just could not run a fair consistant game. So set up your own. Havce fun, see how it goes. And learn from this one. Playing favorites is bad. PvP is most of the time bad. Evil PCs are most of the time bad. It sounds like fun, but these things are more often than not game killers. As you have now seen. I have been told by a few members that I could be a good DM. I actually tried it today with fairly good results. I did not have access to any text resources because they are all .pdf files on my PC at home but I managed to have everyone create basic characters; all level one- an even playing field. I started everyone out in the ocean on a pirate ship saying that they were held captive for quite some time and now is their chance to change their destinies. Very simple beginning with just fistfights and a few puzzles, due to the lack of text resources, but I was told that everyone enjoyed themselves and in the end that all that matters.
DyloniusFunk 05-08-07, 11:09 PM	My DM is being very unfair. I worked hard and spent a lot of time in the past couple months to get my character to the place he is, as did my allies on the ship. Now these two guys come along (both were lvls 7 and 5) and become ECL of 16 without doing anything- and they go and destroy my whole guild (basically) with not even the slightest challenge. It makes me really want to just leave the game, but I don't want to be like that. This group I play with is the only one in my area and I've only just started D&D about 2 months ago; I don't want this stuff to ruin everything. Do you think you are the only person who has worked to get thier character leveled up/ what about the guys you admited helping kill off? Maybe i'm biased since my Cleric character was killed by my supposed allies in my Eberron game, but i have no patience for childish PvP dren. My character was killed because one oif the characters was CE and didn't like me, even though i healed her first, and the other one was NE and a shelfish twit who didn't like not being the center of attention. So i wish my DM had let me become a Mind Flayer and get soe payback. To quote Will Smith in Men In Black "Don't start nothin, won't be nothin"
diphycue 05-08-07, 11:13 PM	...What? As I said, If played correctly... I've had illithids as major villians in several games I've ran, and I have yet had a party kill one...only once was the illithid ever even injured, and that was luck. Illithids are geniuses, long lived, masters of psionic magic, and have dozens of slaves to call upon. Do you really think a Mind Flayer would put himself in danger if he doesn't have to? Hat of Disguise on a thrall, route your Telepathy through the thrall, the party kills the thrall, thinking they got you...Greater Invisibility mind blast until everyone is stunned (good for fairly low level encounters, CR 9)...make clones of yourself just in case... I mean, there's TONS of stuff an Illithid can do...and they are smart enough to plan ahead, and evil enough to not care what lines they have to cross to survive. Admittedly, I'm a bit biased, they are my FAVORITE monster...I like using them in my games, I like playing them...
steakandeggs 05-08-07, 11:27 PM	Do you think you are the only person who has worked to get thier character leveled up/ what about the guys you admited helping kill off? Maybe i'm biased since my Cleric character was killed by my supposed allies in my Eberron game, but i have no patience for childish PvP dren. My character was killed because one oif the characters was CE and didn't like me, even though i healed her first, and the other one was NE and a shelfish twit who didn't like not being the center of attention. So i wish my DM had let me become a Mind Flayer and get soe payback. To quote Will Smith in Men In Black "Don't start nothin, won't be nothin" The guys I killed off knew that treason against the guild was punishable by death and yet they still did it. They could have kept using those same characters that died, if the DM allowed them to somehow resurrect which I'm sure he would have, and they would have only suffer a 10,000 XP loss- since that is my DM's usual death penalty, unless he says otherwise. But those two guys decided to try and beat the system by making Mind Flayers instead of keeping their original characters. Two wrongs don't make a right. So making a character that more or less beats the system and is horribly unbalanced, just for revenge, makes the situation even worse.
Mock26 05-08-07, 11:35 PM	Recently some guys, in the D&D game I'm in, died. They decided to make new players instead of take penalties towards their current characters. So they made Illithids (Mind Flayers) and they wanted to get revenge on the people who killed their previous characters- my allies along with myself. These players, now Mind Flayers, proceded to attack my friends and I while we were thousands of feet above a city in a magical airship. Granted, we were raining cannonfire upon the innocent city but that aside, shouldn't they have a range for their spells? I mean, they summoned portal openings in which an army of Mind Flayer tentacle things burst out (about 30 of them) and penetrated straight through our ships defenses, went straight to attacking my allies and I without giving us a chance to do anything in retalliation. By the way, these two Mind Flayer characters (who are thousands of feet below- on the ground) are only level ONE. These tentacle things proceeded to use their attacks, without myself or anyone else on the ship getting a chance to do anything at all. So their attacks don't do damage but basically perma-stun everyone. The session ended there because people had to leave, but now I know that my friends and I are going to get completely owned at the next session since we are permanently stunned. The way I see it is that these new level one Illithids are either insanely overpowered or my DM is very gullible/stupid. It gets me very frustrated because my allies and I are evil, and it seems that my DM lets these grossly overpowered things go on as a sort of karma for us evil players- which is wrong and biased. So any advice on Illithids (Mind Flayers) or on how I can resolve this imbalance of power would be greatly appreciated. I think it is a bigger problem that they would come in with new characters hades bent on revenging old characters, whom their new characters wouldn't have known. That's petty metagaming at it's pettiest.
pmurray@bigpond.com 05-09-07, 12:45 AM	I'm a very chill/laid back person but when people try to cheat and do things like this nonsense I will not just sit back and let it happen. It's unfair to everyone in the game, not just myself. I had a similar problem. One of our group is a warlock with Baleful Utterance, which basically works like a shatter spell. We had reached (the DM and the other players) the conclusion, somehow, that a) this spell could shatter a held weapon (when the spell says it only shatters small, brittle objects) and b) fort save or be stunned (which the spell simply does not mention. At all. All it says is that it will do damage to crystal golems) Now, I have to admit that it was majorly ****ing me off that another level-1 character in our group had an at-will disintegrate and power word stun spell. God knows, I'm a powergamer myself. But these are, like, sixth level spells. I am sure (completely positive) they weren't deliberately cheating. What I do think is that the player simply had not read the damn spell description, in a group where we generally trust player to know what their characters can do, and where everyone give me a rough time if I hesitate for a moment about the range and duration of my spells. Last week came the question: can baleful utterance open a locked door by shattering the lock? I think everyone finally realised that as we were playing it, it was overpowered. Now, here's what I did - ok? I did not lay down the way it is and get all petulant ot triumphant about it. I just said "read the spell description" until they finally did it, and didn't make a big fuss about it. Yes, the group decided that a spell that will powder grandma's porcelain knick-knacks will not nessesarily disable an iron-bound door. I hope there's less nonsense now. Hope so, anyway.
Solo_Phoenix 05-09-07, 01:06 AM	I had a similar problem. One of our group is a warlock with Baleful Utterance, which basically works like a shatter spell. We had reached (the DM and the other players) the conclusion, somehow, that a) this spell could shatter a held weapon (when the spell says it only shatters small, brittle objects) and b) fort save or be stunned (which the spell simply does not mention. At all. All it says is that it will do damage to crystal golems) Now, I have to admit that it was majorly ****ing me off that another level-1 character in our group had an at-will disintegrate and power word stun spell. God knows, I'm a powergamer myself. But these are, like, sixth level spells. I am sure (completely positive) they weren't deliberately cheating. What I do think is that the player simply had not read the damn spell description, in a group where we generally trust player to know what their characters can do, and where everyone give me a rough time if I hesitate for a moment about the range and duration of my spells. Last week came the question: can baleful utterance open a locked door by shattering the lock? I think everyone finally realised that as we were playing it, it was overpowered. Now, here's what I did - ok? I did not lay down the way it is and get all petulant ot triumphant about it. I just said "read the spell description" until they finally did it, and didn't make a big fuss about it. Yes, the group decided that a spell that will powder grandma's porcelain knick-knacks will not nessesarily disable an iron-bound door. I hope there's less nonsense now. Hope so, anyway. "Alternatively, you can target shatter against a single solid object, regardless of composition, weighing up to 10 pounds per caster level." Sounds like you need to read the spell description more carefully before jumping to conclusions. Also, if you read the invocation description, you see that if someone is holding or wearing the shattered object, they need to make a fortitude save to avoid being dazed and deafened.
Derren S. 05-09-07, 02:09 AM	Illithids are geniuses, long lived, masters of psionic magic, and have dozens of slaves to call upon. Do you really think a Mind Flayer would put himself in danger if he doesn't have to? Hat of Disguise on a thrall, route your Telepathy through the thrall, the party kills the thrall, thinking they got you...Greater Invisibility mind blast until everyone is stunned (good for fairly low level encounters, CR 9)...make clones of yourself just in case... Actually they do not have that much psionic power. The MM mind flayers only have some spell like abilites and no manifester levels at all. And the psionic ones only have medicore abilities. And they do not have any racial ability to keep thralls.
pmurray@bigpond.com 05-09-07, 03:26 AM	Sounds like you need to read the spell description more carefully before jumping to conclusions. Also, if you read the invocation description, Damn, you're right. I feel better now. Spell description (PHB, p278): Close range. 1) Area attack. 5ft radius. affects any number of nonmagical brittle objects, 1lb/level 2) Single object egardless of composition. (no mention that it has to be nonmagical) 10 lb/level. 3) Crystal creatures. 1d6/lev (max 10, fort save 1/2). Invocation description (CA, p132): Affects an object or area (ie: not usable against crystaline creatures) If a creature is holding or waearing, and the item is destroyed, Fort save. Dazed 1 round (not stunned), Deafened 10 rounds.
Frugal 05-09-07, 08:11 AM	The level disparity is there because every new person to the club starts at level one, just as everyone else did. But I do wholly agree that the rivalries should end. I think that alignments should not matter and everyone should be considered True Neutral and must not kill each other (a lot) ;) Okay, this is just completely wrong and such a bad idea it's not even funny. Even in a party where everyone is working together this is a bad idea. When you're 1st level even someone a couple of levels higher will completely outshine you and you'll have a ridiculously hard time staying alive long enough to catch up. I'm away from my books but I'm pretty sure the DMG has some guidelines for this. Off the top of my head I'd say any of the following should be reasonably acceptable: Start at a level equal to the average level of the party Start at a level 1 less than the average level of the party Start at a level equal to the lowest level PC Start at a level 1 less than the lowest PC's level I put the 1 level lower options in just because that's then very similar to how you handle a dead PC. Think about this for a minute, you're now at 16th level, if a new player joins tomorrow he's at level 1, anything that's even remotely an appropriate challenge for you will completely annihilate that character in 1 hit. The 1st level player won't even be able to hit anything you're fighting, let alone hope to bypass things like DR. They could have kept using those same characters that died, if the DM allowed them to somehow resurrect which I'm sure he would have, and they would have only suffer a 10,000 XP loss- since that is my DM's usual death penalty, unless he says otherwise. But those two guys decided to try and beat the system by making Mind Flayers instead of keeping their original characters. Why is he completely ignoring the standard penalties for dying? 10,000 XP is a huge loss at low levels and completely insignificant at higher levels. If I'm at a low level that could take me down multiple levels. Why not just follow what the DMG says and use the standard 1 level loss? Incidentally, it also recommends if the player wants to start a new PC instead that it start at 1 level less than the PC who died, the same as if the dead PC were ressed, this is to prevent players from gaining an advantage by replacing a dead character with a new character. Even if your DM insists on continuing to follow this penalty he would be well advised to still follow the DMG guideline that a replacement character start at the same point.
Nephlite 05-09-07, 12:13 PM	As I said, If played correctly... I've had illithids as major villians in several games I've ran, and I have yet had a party kill one...only once was the illithid ever even injured, and that was luck. My Phrenic Psion/Monk killed one: Almost got away. Lucky monks are fast. Illithids are geniuses, long lived, masters of psionic magic, and have dozens of slaves to call upon. Do you really think a Mind Flayer would put himself in danger if he doesn't have to? Hat of Disguise on a thrall, route your Telepathy through the thrall, the party kills the thrall, thinking they got you...Greater Invisibility mind blast until everyone is stunned (good for fairly low level encounters, CR 9)...make clones of yourself just in case... Charm monster not dominate (look them up). Unless these are archillithids or something: no dominate. So they hacev mninions but they are just really good friends that serve them. No G. Invis (not a class ability). Your can't make clones (Wizard/Sorc only). I mean, there's TONS of stuff an Illithid can do...and they are smart enough to plan ahead, and evil enough to not care what lines they have to cross to survive. Admittedly, I'm a bit biased, they are my FAVORITE monster...I like using them in my games, I like playing them... You just described a Wizard (same Int score). And the Wizard actually can do this.
PhaedrusXY 05-09-07, 12:16 PM	Is your DM 8 years old or something?
Pangeon 05-09-07, 03:43 PM	Seems like you're on the right track. Start your own campaign (sans the Mind Flayer players) and have a good time.