Part-Time Psudodragon [Archive] - Wizards Community

Part-Time Psudodragon [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Master_Vega
12-03-07, 07:38 PM Dropping racial HD, what would the EL for a Psudodragon with a base-race alternate form, or a base-race with a Psudodragon alternate form, be?

I think it would be an awesome character to play, if it isn't too high of an LA... especially if you spend most of your time in one of the forms (probably human/other base-race, or one could pull of a mentor-like character that stayed in psudodragon form) and only show the other on rare occasion.

Does anyone know the EL for a Psudodragon/base-race character?

Thanks!
zook1shoe666
12-04-07, 08:14 PM problem with dropping racial HD and just going with the LA.... is some of the LA may be based on having the Hit Dice itself.
Master_Vega
12-04-07, 11:31 PM problem with dropping racial HD and just going with the LA.... is some of the LA may be based on having the Hit Dice itself.

Is racial HD a + or a - to LA? It seems a lot like a - because it screws creatures like Werebears over hardcore. >_>
zook1shoe666
12-04-07, 11:38 PM Is racial HD a + or a - to LA? It seems a lot like a - because it screws creatures like Werebears over hardcore. >_>

HD + LA = ECL = the character level required to be a "real" one of the race.

removing the HD will screw up the ECL of the race.

they also have monster progressions in the Savage Species book for a way to play these races/monsters as lower levels then they normally require. you also MUST advance the full way through the monster class, before starting a regular class.
Master_Vega
12-05-07, 12:11 AM What I meant by a plus or minus is this: is the bonus HD supposed to be a bonus, or a nerf? Because to me it seems like a nerf... perhaps there to balance the class, even though it really hurts them.

There's no way to drop racial HD?
zook1shoe666
12-05-07, 09:23 AM that depends on your point of view, some people would consider it a major bonus and others not so much. but dragons are among the better of the racial HD to have of any of the types

you get 2 dragon racial HD and a +3 LA, therefore 5 ECL. thats 5 "levels" before you can take anything else.
Keenath
12-05-07, 10:07 AM Racial hit dice are much better than Level Adjustment. Consider:

A 5 HD, LA 0 creature can enter the game with a bunch of other 5th level characters. He has five hit dice, so his BAB, saves, and HP are generally on the same level as other 5th level characters (with type determining the exact makeup of those scores).

Now consider a 2 HD, LA +3 creature. He also enters the game with a bunch of 5th level characters, but compared to them, he has BAB of 2 at best (and probably only 1), extremely low HP, bad save bonuses, and an be affected by HD-related spells like Color Spray and Sleep that the rest of the group is immune to.

If you have the choice between more racial HD or a higher LA, go for the HD. Level adjustments stink, and I'd never play a character with more than LA +1.
zook1shoe666
12-05-07, 10:23 AM Racial hit dice are much better than Level Adjustment. Consider:

A 5 HD, LA 0 creature can enter the game with a bunch of other 5th level characters. He has five hit dice, so his BAB, saves, and HP are generally on the same level as other 5th level characters (with type determining the exact makeup of those scores).

Now consider a 2 HD, LA +3 creature. He also enters the game with a bunch of 5th level characters, but compared to them, he has BAB of 2 at best (and probably only 1), extremely low HP, bad save bonuses, and an be affected by HD-related spells like Color Spray and Sleep that the rest of the group is immune to.

If you have the choice between more racial HD or a higher LA, go for the HD. Level adjustments stink, and I'd never play a character with more than LA +1.

agreed completely, but then again i almost never play a race with racial Hit Dice and/or LA more than +1.

the only two races i have are a Maug (Fiend Felio) and a Tauric Dvanti/Fiendish Octopus :-p
Master_Vega
12-05-07, 11:56 AM Yes, Racial HD are much more helplful than LA, but Racial HD < HD by Class, which is what you want for a Player Character.

A 3 racial HD +2LA character in a 5th ECL party is decent, a 3 class HD+ 2LA character in a 5th ECL party is much better (unless the Dragon monster class is really that awesome). +3LA is bad enough, +2 racial HD stealing two levels of your potential is adding insult to injury.

I do understand what you're saying, though.

My question is this: for the purpose of determining LA, if racial HD is included in this process, what does it do? Is the racial HD there to limit a PC's progression, and those nerf a species, or is it a poor attempt to help a high-LA character?
HernetheHunter
12-05-07, 01:05 PM I would say help because without it you are stuck with jack for HP.
Master_Vega
12-05-07, 01:25 PM I would say help because without it you are stuck with jack for HP.

But for the same ECL, you could have decent HP AND abilities.

Unless you have a lenient (and probably new) DM, you're not going to be able to start as a werebear in 3rd level game because it's ECL is around 9 due to all of its racial HD. Sure you could start a werebear in a level 10 campaign, but then you suck horribly compared to your allies with actual class abilities.

Thanks for your opinion.

What LA would a Psudodragon be without the +1 racial HD? I'm not asking if this is a good idea; I'm asking what it would be.
What LA would a Psudodragon with an alternate human form be?

I'm not asking about which is better between LA and Racial HD; that's already been made clear. LA is, however, a necessary evil to balance out some of the more powerful abilities certain races get. \
HernetheHunter
12-05-07, 01:40 PM Pseudo Dragons have 2 racial HD and I believe after reading the Draconomicon section, it would still be +3LA.
Master_Vega
12-05-07, 01:47 PM Pseudo Dragons have 2 racial HD and I believe after reading the Draconomicon section, it would still be +3LA.

Looking at the monster manual entry, they have 2HD total... I think only the second would be counted as racial as everything has 1HD. Elves have 1HD, but class overrides it.

What about the LA for a psudodragon with a human form?

Thanks again!
HernetheHunter
12-05-07, 01:55 PM No it is 2 HD total. WIth the alternate form I would say +3/+4(Low), With the Pseudo-dragon you get telepathy 60', Blindsight 60' and a poison attack instead of a breath weapon + Spell Resistance and a chameleon like ability and a few other abilities. There is a lot of bang there. So I would say +3/+4.
zook1shoe666
12-05-07, 03:40 PM Looking at the monster manual entry, they have 2HD total... I think only the second would be counted as racial as everything has 1HD. Elves have 1HD, but class overrides it.

What about the LA for a psudodragon with a human form?

Thanks again!

any monster used as a race with 1 or few Hit Dice, loses them when used with class levels. anything with 2+ does not.
Jorda_The_Knight
12-05-07, 03:44 PM In my campaigns I give players the option to either take racial HD or to drop them and strictly use the Level Adjustment. This gives them (and myself) much more options and makes perfect sense to me. Why does an elf or dwarf start getting HD when they can levels? What about teenaged elves who are dealing with pimples and girls, don't they have HD? :P
zook1shoe666
12-05-07, 03:55 PM In my campaigns I give players the option to either take racial HD or to drop them and strictly use the Level Adjustment. This gives them (and myself) much more options and makes perfect sense to me. Why does an elf or dwarf start getting HD when they can levels? What about teenaged elves who are dealing with pimples and girls, don't they have HD? :P

say i was one of your players, you would let me play some really uber creature with no racial Hit Dice? do you have any idea how ugly things could get doing that?
DeathDragon
12-05-07, 05:32 PM I am going to be playing as a PseudoDragon in a campaign my DM is running, but I had to do some calculations and spread the bonuses a bit more. To make it better (and fit sorta), I made it a 20 level class that just enhances its own abilities over time (its considered matured at level 5 though).

NOTE: This would work if you do not want to take any classes aside from this progression, at your DMs permission, pick one starter class skill, such as TrapFinding.

PseudoDragon Progression

Average Saves - Add the Good and Poor, divide by 2, round up.

Skills - Upto DMs decision, but are 6 + Int.

d8/d6 HitDie - Reduce the health gained,
and allow for more levels with Hit Dice.

Rogue BaB - Instead of getting a Base Attack Bonus of a Fighter,
it is stepped down a notch.

Flight - 30Good at Level 1 and progresses to 60 Good at Level 5.
* Gain enhancement to flight:
*** Level 10: Flight can increase to 75ft, -1 Category
*** Level 15: Flight can increase to 100ft, -1 Category further.
*** Level 20: Flight can increase to 125ft, -1 Category further.

BlindSense - A bit tricky what I did, but here is how it goes:
*** Gain at 1: Focus for 1d4 Full Rounds.
*** Gain at 3: Focus for 1d2 Full Rounds.
*** Gain at 6: Focus for 1 Full Round.
*** Gain at 10: Focus for a Move Action.
*** Gain at 15: Can use at anytime at will.

The Sleeping Poison was reworked too:
(1-10) + (1/2 class) + (con) + 2 racial
* The (1-10) is equal to your level, upto 10.
*** Sting 1: Fatigued for 1d3+1 rounds.
*** Sting 2: Exhausted for 1d3+1 rounds.
*** Sting 3: Sleep for 1d3+1 rounds.
***** If Slept on Sting 3, make another save, if fails: Sleep for 1d3 hours.

Spell Resistance:
(1-10) + class + (wis)
* The (1-10) is equal to your level, upto 10.
*** This was what the DM wanted, I was thinking on removing the Wisdom
modifier, fits though.

Sleep/Paralyze:
*** Gain +1 Resistance per level, upto 4th level.
*** Gain Immunity at Level 5.

Aside from Dropping Racial Hit Dice or spreading abilities, try dropping some abilities or weakening them, as I did (but only upto level 5).
Darth Sephiroth
12-05-07, 09:11 PM For the Human Alternate form, you could attempt to get the DM to allow you to use the Alternate Form feat from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting. It's meant for True Dragons, but this could be ignored with permission as you wouldn't be getting another feat until you level up.

Also I believe the Pseudodragon gains another +1 to natural armor with the modified Dragon Hit Die from the Draconomicon. And while you're slightly behind the curve with class abilities, you're a dragon and you can fly.
Jorda_The_Knight
12-06-07, 11:29 PM say i was one of your players, you would let me play some really uber creature with no racial Hit Dice? do you have any idea how ugly things could get doing that?

I keep it balanced, usually nothing more than an LA of +3 or +4, depending on the campaign. I've been working out ECLs and LAs for a long time, so it's not that hard to find the right balance. Just have to use common sense really.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Master_Vega 12-03-07, 07:38 PM	Dropping racial HD, what would the EL for a Psudodragon with a base-race alternate form, or a base-race with a Psudodragon alternate form, be? I think it would be an awesome character to play, if it isn't too high of an LA... especially if you spend most of your time in one of the forms (probably human/other base-race, or one could pull of a mentor-like character that stayed in psudodragon form) and only show the other on rare occasion. Does anyone know the EL for a Psudodragon/base-race character? Thanks!
zook1shoe666 12-04-07, 08:14 PM	problem with dropping racial HD and just going with the LA.... is some of the LA may be based on having the Hit Dice itself.
Master_Vega 12-04-07, 11:31 PM	problem with dropping racial HD and just going with the LA.... is some of the LA may be based on having the Hit Dice itself. Is racial HD a + or a - to LA? It seems a lot like a - because it screws creatures like Werebears over hardcore. >_>
zook1shoe666 12-04-07, 11:38 PM	Is racial HD a + or a - to LA? It seems a lot like a - because it screws creatures like Werebears over hardcore. >_> HD + LA = ECL = the character level required to be a "real" one of the race. removing the HD will screw up the ECL of the race. they also have monster progressions in the Savage Species book for a way to play these races/monsters as lower levels then they normally require. you also MUST advance the full way through the monster class, before starting a regular class.
Master_Vega 12-05-07, 12:11 AM	What I meant by a plus or minus is this: is the bonus HD supposed to be a bonus, or a nerf? Because to me it seems like a nerf... perhaps there to balance the class, even though it really hurts them. There's no way to drop racial HD?
zook1shoe666 12-05-07, 09:23 AM	that depends on your point of view, some people would consider it a major bonus and others not so much. but dragons are among the better of the racial HD to have of any of the types you get 2 dragon racial HD and a +3 LA, therefore 5 ECL. thats 5 "levels" before you can take anything else.
Keenath 12-05-07, 10:07 AM	Racial hit dice are much better than Level Adjustment. Consider: A 5 HD, LA 0 creature can enter the game with a bunch of other 5th level characters. He has five hit dice, so his BAB, saves, and HP are generally on the same level as other 5th level characters (with type determining the exact makeup of those scores). Now consider a 2 HD, LA +3 creature. He also enters the game with a bunch of 5th level characters, but compared to them, he has BAB of 2 at best (and probably only 1), extremely low HP, bad save bonuses, and an be affected by HD-related spells like Color Spray and Sleep that the rest of the group is immune to. If you have the choice between more racial HD or a higher LA, go for the HD. Level adjustments stink, and I'd never play a character with more than LA +1.
zook1shoe666 12-05-07, 10:23 AM	Racial hit dice are much better than Level Adjustment. Consider: A 5 HD, LA 0 creature can enter the game with a bunch of other 5th level characters. He has five hit dice, so his BAB, saves, and HP are generally on the same level as other 5th level characters (with type determining the exact makeup of those scores). Now consider a 2 HD, LA +3 creature. He also enters the game with a bunch of 5th level characters, but compared to them, he has BAB of 2 at best (and probably only 1), extremely low HP, bad save bonuses, and an be affected by HD-related spells like Color Spray and Sleep that the rest of the group is immune to. If you have the choice between more racial HD or a higher LA, go for the HD. Level adjustments stink, and I'd never play a character with more than LA +1. agreed completely, but then again i almost never play a race with racial Hit Dice and/or LA more than +1. the only two races i have are a Maug (Fiend Felio) and a Tauric Dvanti/Fiendish Octopus :-p
Master_Vega 12-05-07, 11:56 AM	Yes, Racial HD are much more helplful than LA, but Racial HD < HD by Class, which is what you want for a Player Character. A 3 racial HD +2LA character in a 5th ECL party is decent, a 3 class HD+ 2LA character in a 5th ECL party is much better (unless the Dragon monster class is really that awesome). +3LA is bad enough, +2 racial HD stealing two levels of your potential is adding insult to injury. I do understand what you're saying, though. My question is this: for the purpose of determining LA, if racial HD is included in this process, what does it do? Is the racial HD there to limit a PC's progression, and those nerf a species, or is it a poor attempt to help a high-LA character?
HernetheHunter 12-05-07, 01:05 PM	I would say help because without it you are stuck with jack for HP.
Master_Vega 12-05-07, 01:25 PM	I would say help because without it you are stuck with jack for HP. But for the same ECL, you could have decent HP AND abilities. Unless you have a lenient (and probably new) DM, you're not going to be able to start as a werebear in 3rd level game because it's ECL is around 9 due to all of its racial HD. Sure you could start a werebear in a level 10 campaign, but then you suck horribly compared to your allies with actual class abilities. Thanks for your opinion. What LA would a Psudodragon be without the +1 racial HD? I'm not asking if this is a good idea; I'm asking what it would be. What LA would a Psudodragon with an alternate human form be? I'm not asking about which is better between LA and Racial HD; that's already been made clear. LA is, however, a necessary evil to balance out some of the more powerful abilities certain races get. \
HernetheHunter 12-05-07, 01:40 PM	Pseudo Dragons have 2 racial HD and I believe after reading the Draconomicon section, it would still be +3LA.
Master_Vega 12-05-07, 01:47 PM	Pseudo Dragons have 2 racial HD and I believe after reading the Draconomicon section, it would still be +3LA. Looking at the monster manual entry, they have 2HD total... I think only the second would be counted as racial as everything has 1HD. Elves have 1HD, but class overrides it. What about the LA for a psudodragon with a human form? Thanks again!
HernetheHunter 12-05-07, 01:55 PM	No it is 2 HD total. WIth the alternate form I would say +3/+4(Low), With the Pseudo-dragon you get telepathy 60', Blindsight 60' and a poison attack instead of a breath weapon + Spell Resistance and a chameleon like ability and a few other abilities. There is a lot of bang there. So I would say +3/+4.
zook1shoe666 12-05-07, 03:40 PM	Looking at the monster manual entry, they have 2HD total... I think only the second would be counted as racial as everything has 1HD. Elves have 1HD, but class overrides it. What about the LA for a psudodragon with a human form? Thanks again! any monster used as a race with 1 or few Hit Dice, loses them when used with class levels. anything with 2+ does not.
Jorda_The_Knight 12-05-07, 03:44 PM	In my campaigns I give players the option to either take racial HD or to drop them and strictly use the Level Adjustment. This gives them (and myself) much more options and makes perfect sense to me. Why does an elf or dwarf start getting HD when they can levels? What about teenaged elves who are dealing with pimples and girls, don't they have HD? :P
zook1shoe666 12-05-07, 03:55 PM	In my campaigns I give players the option to either take racial HD or to drop them and strictly use the Level Adjustment. This gives them (and myself) much more options and makes perfect sense to me. Why does an elf or dwarf start getting HD when they can levels? What about teenaged elves who are dealing with pimples and girls, don't they have HD? :P say i was one of your players, you would let me play some really uber creature with no racial Hit Dice? do you have any idea how ugly things could get doing that?
DeathDragon 12-05-07, 05:32 PM	I am going to be playing as a PseudoDragon in a campaign my DM is running, but I had to do some calculations and spread the bonuses a bit more. To make it better (and fit sorta), I made it a 20 level class that just enhances its own abilities over time (its considered matured at level 5 though). NOTE: This would work if you do not want to take any classes aside from this progression, at your DMs permission, pick one starter class skill, such as TrapFinding. PseudoDragon Progression Average Saves - Add the Good and Poor, divide by 2, round up. Skills - Upto DMs decision, but are 6 + Int. d8/d6 HitDie - Reduce the health gained, and allow for more levels with Hit Dice. Rogue BaB - Instead of getting a Base Attack Bonus of a Fighter, it is stepped down a notch. Flight - 30Good at Level 1 and progresses to 60 Good at Level 5. * Gain enhancement to flight: * Level 10: Flight can increase to 75ft, -1 Category * Level 15: Flight can increase to 100ft, -1 Category further. * Level 20: Flight can increase to 125ft, -1 Category further. BlindSense - A bit tricky what I did, but here is how it goes: * Gain at 1: Focus for 1d4 Full Rounds. * Gain at 3: Focus for 1d2 Full Rounds. * Gain at 6: Focus for 1 Full Round. * Gain at 10: Focus for a Move Action. * Gain at 15: Can use at anytime at will. The Sleeping Poison was reworked too: (1-10) + (1/2 class) + (con) + 2 racial * The (1-10) is equal to your level, upto 10. * Sting 1: Fatigued for 1d3+1 rounds. * Sting 2: Exhausted for 1d3+1 rounds. * Sting 3: Sleep for 1d3+1 rounds. *** If Slept on Sting 3, make another save, if fails: Sleep for 1d3 hours. Spell Resistance: (1-10) + class + (wis) * The (1-10) is equal to your level, upto 10. * This was what the DM wanted, I was thinking on removing the Wisdom modifier, fits though. Sleep/Paralyze: * Gain +1 Resistance per level, upto 4th level. *** Gain Immunity at Level 5. Aside from Dropping Racial Hit Dice or spreading abilities, try dropping some abilities or weakening them, as I did (but only upto level 5).
Darth Sephiroth 12-05-07, 09:11 PM	For the Human Alternate form, you could attempt to get the DM to allow you to use the Alternate Form feat from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting. It's meant for True Dragons, but this could be ignored with permission as you wouldn't be getting another feat until you level up. Also I believe the Pseudodragon gains another +1 to natural armor with the modified Dragon Hit Die from the Draconomicon. And while you're slightly behind the curve with class abilities, you're a dragon and you can fly.
Jorda_The_Knight 12-06-07, 11:29 PM	say i was one of your players, you would let me play some really uber creature with no racial Hit Dice? do you have any idea how ugly things could get doing that? I keep it balanced, usually nothing more than an LA of +3 or +4, depending on the campaign. I've been working out ECLs and LAs for a long time, so it's not that hard to find the right balance. Just have to use common sense really.