Post/Author/DateTime	Post
edwardlynxx 01-23-08, 07:57 PM	Okay, if you are the type of DM who wouldn't allow this that's fine, but what I'm looking for is advice, not ridicule. That being said, I recently had a PC in my campaign get fully drained of Con by a Vampire, and thus will be turned into one after 4 nights (I rolled for it). Now, I don't want to take control of his character, which is the problem. Are there any rules for advancing a normal character into a Vampire, instead of just adding the template? The character is a 5th level fighter, who was just rolling really badly during the grapple checks, thus going from an 18 CON to 0 in about seven rounds of combat. Anyways, the rest of the group is all 5th level, and I don't want to just add a +8 LA template to him. So, if you know of anywhere I can find some rules for young vampires I would appreciate it. Thank you.
Ralvuimego 01-23-08, 07:59 PM	The best option I can think of to sort this out is to just force your next level to be in the Vampire Spawn savage progression from Libris Mortis. You'll never become a true vampire, but you'll be pretty close.
edwardlynxx 01-23-08, 08:06 PM	One of the problems I face is that it says in the MM that if you have 4- HD you become a Spawn, and if you're 5+ HD you become a Vampire. So, in this case he'd be a Vamp, not a Spawn, right?:confused:
BrianMc223 01-23-08, 08:17 PM	You need to make or get a savage progression for the template, and you need to give him Unholy Toughness as a bonus feat. (Cha instead of con to HP) Even with that his HP is going to be crap.
edwardlynxx 01-23-08, 09:34 PM	What book is that feat in? I just went through Libris Mortis and didn't find it. :confused:
RobbyPants 01-23-08, 09:50 PM	I can recommend two things, both created by me: The first is my modified vampire template (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=708607). The basic idea here was to have powers scale by level, and to fill in some gaps left by the Monster Manual. The only problem is that it doesn't take level adjustment into account, so if this PC is part of a group, he will get more powerful than the others quickly. The second solution is my unliving vampire template (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=14688037), based on the above template. What I did was create an undead subtype called unliving, which removes many of the immunities of undead creatures (probably worth one or two levels right there). This template advances by taking levels in the "monster class", thus giving the player the choice of advancing the PC's class, or advancing the vampire abilities through levels. My attempt was to make the 0th level one that would grant all the weaknesses and very base powers, without adding to the character's power. Feel free to use what you want from either. ;)
ZiggZagg 01-23-08, 10:27 PM	Unholy Toughness is not a feat. It is a special ability. It very difficult to get. I can only think of 1 method, and that involves a prestige class. You could just as easily give it to him and call it a day. As for what to do here, I would just set up a savage progression or just give him the template and not worry about it. Maybe cut the LA in half and only give him an LA of +4. That way he won't fall horribly behind
Pudge_is_cute 01-24-08, 12:06 AM	I can recommend two things, both created by me: The first is my modified vampire template (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=708607). The basic idea here was to have powers scale by level, and to fill in some gaps left by the Monster Manual. The only problem is that it doesn't take level adjustment into account, so if this PC is part of a group, he will get more powerful than the others quickly. The second solution is my unliving vampire template (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=14688037), based on the above template. What I did was create an undead subtype called unliving, which removes many of the immunities of undead creatures (probably worth one or two levels right there). This template advances by taking levels in the "monster class", thus giving the player the choice of advancing the PC's class, or advancing the vampire abilities through levels. My attempt was to make the 0th level one that would grant all the weaknesses and very base powers, without adding to the character's power. Feel free to use what you want from either. ;) I like the part in where the Vampire will not be immedietely disintegrated in direct sunlight and just take half damage. I still have a hard time understanding why Vampire's are considered dead when their head are cut off. Why did they not take gaseous form after their head is taken off? Is it from lore or something like that? I would not stake the vampire but cut his/her head instead of waiting for the sun. Well that still depends if the character knows that fact though....
M-bark 01-24-08, 02:37 AM	I still have a hard time understanding why Vampire's are considered dead when their head are cut off. Why did they not take gaseous form after their head is taken off? Is it from lore or something like that? That probably has to do with the fact that vampires are not mindless. They still use their brain, and thus, if you take that away (i.e. cut of the head), they're pretty much dead like a human would be. Anyways, if it would happen in my campaign, I would give him the template with some modifications. At least a lowered LA, so that the party would not become all unbalanced. Of course, if the player does not want the character to become a vampire, or the other PCs greatly fear/hate vampires, they could always cut off his head prior to the transformation's completion.
RobbyPants 01-24-08, 08:31 AM	I still have a hard time understanding why Vampire's are considered dead when their head are cut off. Why did they not take gaseous form after their head is taken off? Is it from lore or something like that? It's partially what M-bark said about them not being mindless and partially based on lore. There are many interpretations of what a vampire is, and I merely took what I like and excluded what I didn't. In various stories, one way to kill a vampire was to cut off their head. Even in the Monster Manual, they talk about cutting off the head and stuffing the mouth with holy wafers or their equivalant, often after staking. The only reason it would be done after staking is to make it easier. One reason I ended up making that unliving subtype of undead is because I personally think vampires still have a bit of a metabolism. At the very least, they are dependeant on their heads and hearts, and to some extend their digestive system. Exactly what goes on inside a vampire is really up to whoever is telling the story. This is just the version I like. ;)
aikimiller 01-24-08, 08:41 AM	Having a vampire PC will give you serious problems. The simple fact that he cannot adventure during the day, when the rest of the party, not to mention the rest of the world, will be active will throw a huge wrench into everything. I would seriously think about creative ways to handle it. I haven't looked through it, but does savage species have a progression for vampire? If it doesn't, it would be a great place to look for ideas as how to make one. I know there are ones for lycanthropy out there.
Captain_Kobold 01-24-08, 09:31 AM	Edwardlynxx: The character is dead. Treat it as with any other instance when you kill a character. What happens next depends upon how you deal with character death in your game. If the standard procedure for when a player's character dies is for them to roll a new one, then they should do so. Particularly if they do not have access to resurrection magic by being too low-level, not enough cash etc. You could perhaps rule that the Gentle Repose spell will stave off the character rising from the dead. This would allow the party to get him back to a place where he could be raised, if that is normal for when a character dies. If you don't want to have to take control of the ex-character, then simply have the conflicted, newly-risen vampire flee into the night rather than face his erstwhile comrades. If you actively want to have a vampire character in your game, you could allow the player to retain control. Drop him two levels, and give him the first level of the Vampire spawn savage progression. (One overall level lost due to death, one swapped with the spawn level.)
StrahdVonZarovich 01-24-08, 11:35 AM	If only I'd remember where I saw that savage species-like class/template that someone here on the boards made, i'd link to you right away! Thrs also the two that, this guy made that you can chk out right there(http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=930624). Personaly I've played some kind of merging between the regular Wotc Vamp in the MMv3.5 and the their vamp lord. And I'd recommand against it. Not only is the LA WAYYYY too high but it also debalances the power between you an' the rest of the team. The sunlight effect/zone of danger is also a huge pain in the ass. I was lucky to covince my fellow gamers to play only nightime...by paying them a pizza(its crazy how many and corruption can get you in our epoch). I know that the rules clearly specifies that if you get 5 lvls more you become a real vamp, and not a mere spawn BUt this should be change imho. This should made this more something like 10 hd/lvls. Although of course the final decision is yours to make. I'd really recommand a SS based class if you decide to allow this player to play a regular vamp, this everyone the games stays mroe balanced, and everyone's happy.
KruniacZio 01-30-08, 01:19 AM	Well, you could always say that he loses all levels save for one, then add the template. He will still have a huge level adjustment difference, but its managable. Furthermore, he could get to roleplay the fact that as he "gains levels", he slowly remembers his past life and is horrified to find that he is now an undead monster! ...Or something. I dont know - I dont use level adjustments =/
edwardlynxx 01-30-08, 01:25 AM	:banghead: :banghead: Actually, I found an example in Libris Mortis of a 5th level Dwarf fighter being drained completely, losing a level due to coming back, and then becoming a Vampire Spawn due to his hit dice being down to 4, so that's what I ended up going with. I guess it was just my lucky day... Why couldn't I have found this earlier. Anyways, thanks for all of your good ideas, guys. I guess this thread is done. :dancin:
Red_Wizards_Rock 01-30-08, 02:27 AM	I'd just give him everything in the MM it's an inherited template, and if you think he needs LA 2 maybe 4, but since he'll be adventuring away from his coffin atleast I'm assuming than he'll be just as easy to kill as another PC, because if he goes to 0 hp he goes into gasous form and if he doesn't get to his coffin with in 2 hours he dies. As for sunlight tell him to take Endure Sunlight, buy a heavy robe or buy some of the oil (I forget what the oil is called but it's in the Libris Mortis) it protects vampires from the sun so they can walk around. Seriously LA 8 is way to high for a vampire since there are so many ways the average player can kill a vampire. I've turned afew to dust with Turn Undead instant kill.
toranaga181 01-30-08, 03:19 AM	The Deck Of Many things helped me when I became a Vampire in the very first D&D game I played...that was crazy....MUAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! !!!!
Jvance420 01-30-08, 03:28 AM	Noob alert! lol This is sort of on topic, if you are playing in a game and the DM allows "evil" characters, is it possible to play a Vampire? Or maybe a Vampire Spawn? If so, would the feat from Libris Mortis called Endure Sunlight work to get past the daylight issue?
Deamion 01-30-08, 08:53 AM	http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a Is that what you're looking for?
McPoyo 01-30-08, 09:39 AM	There's a Spell called "Cloak of Darkness" or somesuch. It was originally a spell in the Drow domain in one of the FR books. It has been reprinted in the Spell Compendium on page 48. It's still Drow domain (level 1 spell, at that) but the basic gist is that while the spell is active, the target of it is protected from the effects of full sunlight, even while out in the open under the noon-time sun. It also gives some miscellaneous bonus to [Light] Spell effects too, but that's not the important part. Most DMs I've talked to have ruled that it protects a vampire from the Sunlight exposure problems they've got. Just change it from a domain spell (maybe bump it up to a level 2 spell for all it really matters) and throw it in an item for him. Maybe a cloak, so it keeps that cool flavor thing going on. He'll look pretty sinister with shadows swirling all around him even out in the middle of a field during the day, but it serves it's purpose pretty easily. Alternatively, you could take a page from the D20 Modern setting, where you can remove weaknesses to vampires by removing a strength ability (Call of the Night, Domination, etc) on a 1 for 1 basis. Drop the sunlight death for domination or something. Might change LA a little (I honestly doubt it, since that's one of the biggest weaknesses the vampire has, for one of it's strongest abilities), and it might work for what you need.
T_Stalker 01-30-08, 10:32 AM	Honestly? If there's a cleric in the party, that fighter should already be ash. Collect the dust in a baggy and if there's a temple near, drop him of and check for a res. If the party doesn't finish him off and you really want him to be a vampire without the messy LA; just give him the disadvantages immediately and the advantages level by level. With a grain of salt of course.
Trannic 01-30-08, 10:42 AM	I know the logistics behind this suggestion might be a little hard to stretch, but what about the half-vampire? You still receive a few of the vampire powers, smaller LA, and can be much more easily roleplayed.I'm not sure how you'd spin it but it might be better than having him turn into a full fledged vamp. Either that or spank him with the sanctified creature template from BoED pg.186.
McPoyo 01-30-08, 11:53 AM	Keep in mind there are plenty of feats and items the fighter could pick up that would prevent the cleric from dusting him. If progressed correctly (as in, through the Vampire class WotC put out that was linked earlier), the cleric never could dust him as his level would never be twice the fighter's unless he was using a Greater Turning. Also, not all cleric's channel Positive Energy. And it's not hard to boost your turning level to more than 4 above the cleric's HD anyhow with the number of feats and resources available in the Libris Mortis.
edwardlynxx 01-30-08, 01:31 PM	Honestly? If there's a cleric in the party, that fighter should already be ash. Collect the dust in a baggy and if there's a temple near, drop him of and check for a res. If the party doesn't finish him off and you really want him to be a vampire without the messy LA; just give him the disadvantages immediately and the advantages level by level. With a grain of salt of course. Well, if there was a cleric in the party that MIGHT have been a problem, but fortunately the group consists of 1 Warlock, 1 Ranger/Artificer, 1 Druid, 1 Rogue (who, ironically, has a Vampire bloodline from UA), a Warmage, and 2 Fighters, one of which is now a Vampire. And, the party has already accepted him as a Vampire, with the knowledge that if in the future he decides that he doesn't like being a Vampire they might be able to change things for him. Oh, and the party isn't anti-undead, specifically as the Warlock is going to be multi-classing Specialist Wizard (Necromancer). And, no the Druid has no problem with Undead. I know someone out there is going to spout off about them being abominations of Nature and everything, but she's more concerned with creatures of Nature who have been corrupted, and other Druids who are doing the corrupting. In this campaign there is a group of dark Druids who have warped the nature of Nature creatures, namely Fey, and used them to take over a large portion of a country. Anyways, I don't want to go too into detail about my Campaign due to the fact that my players might find this thread. :nonono: That just wouldn't work. Anyways, thanks all for all of your good idea. I suppose if you want to talk about Vampire things from now on that would be cool. :dancin:
SirLaggalot 01-30-08, 02:00 PM	I would force his next level to be in the savage races progression for a vampire spawn, or I would simply start him on a vampire bloodline (modified slightly of course). But if he really doesn't want to come back as a vampire I wouldn't force him to, and using his character (in vampire form) later as a boss would be pretty cool for your players. Vampire Bloodline is from Unearthed Arcana
KruniacZio 01-30-08, 03:04 PM	There isnt anything to explain the Vampire -bloodline- from getting Con drained. Likewise, giving him the Vampire Spawn class is just gimping him. The VS is -nothing- compared to the Vampire template. Two negative levels, can create spawn, oh my! When you have a 5 HD character running with the party and FIVE Vampire Spawns (of various races), you'll understand what I mean.
Meep222 01-30-08, 05:25 PM	I'd suggest reading this: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a It gives a level progression for the Vampire, and to help keep him alive, I'd say he could take a template level every other level or so, to keep his HD up, and not make 'im so squishy.
StrahdVonZarovich 01-31-08, 11:08 AM	Yes that is exactly what I was talking about. Damn good idea to keep things balanced.
Red_Wizards_Rock 01-31-08, 02:01 PM	I'd suggest reading this: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a It gives a level progression for the Vampire, and to help keep him alive, I'd say he could take a template level every other level or so, to keep his HD up, and not make 'im so squishy. Using this is punishing the player, because you you made a mistake and didn't want to take him over. My real question is what are you going to do if the player doesn't want to take that Savage Progression. The PHB Vampire LA is way off for the vampire anyway in my honest opinion, because like I stated before if he's further than 2 hours time away from his coffin he is hundred times easier to kill than a regular PC. This looks more like you are telling him to stop playing his character, because it's not going to be fun for you anymore. If you do force your player to take a savage progression make it easier on him and make him take only 4 lvls. Since he was turned mid campaign. Coffin Sanctuary (Ex): Upon reaching 3rd level, a vampire chooses a coffin or similar small enclosed space as his primary resting place. Thereafter, if he is brought to -1 to -9 hit points (if living) or to 0 or fewer hit points (if undead) while outside the coffin, he is forced to assume gaseous form (see below) immediately and flee for his coffin so that he may heal. If the vampire cannot use his vampiric ability to assume gaseous form (for example, if he has expended all his daily uses of that ability), he cannot enter gaseous form under these circumstances and dies immediately. Any damage dealt to the vampire after he is forced into gaseous form has no effect. If the duration of his gaseous form ability expires before he reaches his coffin, or more than 2 hours pass after he is forced into gaseous form in this way, the vampire must assume his normal form at his current location. In that case, he either begins to die (if he is a living vampire) or is destroyed (if he is an undead vampire). If he succeeds in reaching his coffin, he is helpless for 1 hour, after which he heals 1 hit point and the helplessness ends. A nonhelpless vampire resting in his coffin has fast healing 1. A 5th-level or higher nonhelpless vampire resting in his coffin has fast healing 5. This is why it is easier to kill a vampire when he is more than 2 hours away from his coffin. I don't know why it says -1- -9, because he turns to gaseous form at 0 and than dies if he can't get to his coffin in 2 hours. Sunlight & Water Vulnerability: A 5th-level or higher vampire exposed to direct sunlight is disoriented. While in this condition, he can take only a single move action or attack action in a round, and 3 full rounds of such exposure destroy it utterly. Similarly, immersing a typical vampire in running water robs it of one-fifth of its hit points each round until it is destroyed at the end of the fifth round of immersion. (A vampire with a natural swim speed is not harmed by immersion in running water.) At 7th level, a vampire's flesh becomes even more vulnerable to sunlight and running water. Upon exposure to sunlight, he takes the above penalties and is destroyed utterly in the next round if he cannot escape. The vampire loses one-third of his hit points each round of immersion in water instead of one-fifth, and he is destroyed after at the end of the third round of exposure instead of the fifth round. Also why LA 8 for vampire is a joke chances are he's not going to aquire those magical items and potions fast enough or easy enough, because it's not like he can go into a potion store and say "Hey I'm a vampire and sunlight hurts do you have anything so I don't turn to dust?"
edwardlynxx 01-31-08, 03:07 PM	I think that some of you guys might be getting the wrong impression here. I didn't, nor would I ever, force the player to play a Vampire. He didn't have a problem with it, and had a lot of fun playing him in the last game. What I originally wanted help with was getting it set up so that he had a progressive build up as a Vampire, so that I didn't have to auto adjust his character to level 13 and thus deprive the group of a huge amount of XP, while at the same time making his character vastly over-powered compared to the rest of the group. Especially since after gaining a few levels his ability to stay in a fight would drop off dramatically. And, the part about gimping him by making him a VS is not really right, because of the example that I gave earlier, taken straight from Libris Mortis, just in my own words. So, as I stated in the begining of the Thread, if you're not into it, that's fine. Find another thread and keep going from there. This would be a thread for people who find it interesting and want to discuss ideas about bringing the undead to life in their games. Metaphorically speaking...
edwardlynxx 01-31-08, 03:20 PM	Oh, and just to get my two cents in about the suggested level progression they give for the Vampire, honestly I'm not really that impressed with it. I don't like the fact that you are a Vampire, but you aren't really undead until the 7th level of taking the template. I'm sorry, maybe I'm just old school, but how can you have a Vampire who has died, and come back, and is still alive for 7 levels? It just doesn't make any sense to me. The only thing that I do like about the class is the slow progression of the Vulnerabilities, instead of just laying them on someone.
Red_Wizards_Rock 01-31-08, 05:19 PM	Honestly I don't see a huge problem with letting him have it all right now since he turned mid game. Unless you are worried he's going to try to kill the party. Yea that Vampire progression is lame, and I still believe vampire LA +8 is to high it should just be +5. It's not like he's going to live forever if he gets turned to gaseous form, and the party is not going to carry around his coffin for him. If they do carry his coffin for him than I want to be a vampire in your game.
EdrickTheGreat 02-01-08, 09:17 PM	Try adding some traits in from Vampire Bloodline from Unearthed Arcana, but give him light sensitivity and weaknesses to silver weapons.
Red_Wizards_Rock 02-01-08, 09:38 PM	Try adding some traits in from Vampire Bloodline from Unearthed Arcana, but give him light sensitivity and weaknesses to silver weapons. Wait, Light Sensitivity can break the vampire I'd suggest passing this up. One of the Vampires main flaws than you are changing it from Sunlight kills you to here just have a -1 to all of your actions in the Sunlight.
edwardlynxx 02-02-08, 06:19 AM	:thinks: Firstly, I don't think that there is a single player in my game who would be willing to carry the Vampire's coffin. They're a close knit group, but everyone has their limitations. On the other hand, I could make it out of intelligent Pearwood :nonono: Wait, wrong world. :surrender guess I just don't like the idea of giving him a LA that high. By the time the other members of the party catch up to him, level wise, he'd be 8 HD behind them. That's a bit too much for me to just brush off. And, for everyone suggesting the half-vampires/vampire bloodlines, how can I really justify that? When a vampire bites someone, they don't gain a bloodline, or half-turn, they turn or they don't. It's my game, and I can house rule as I like, but I shy away from bending something so much that it looks nothing like it originally did. Besides, we already worked it out for him to take levels in the Vampire Spawn class. It's not counting against him for multi-classing penalties, so he doesn't have to worry about that. I've decided that, because he's gained the template during game play, he can gain levels as a Vampire Spawn as he likes. If he doesn't want to become a stronger Vampire, that's up to him. If he does, well cool. Of course, he will soon face challenges where being a powerful undead will be very advantageous to him... but will he be prepared to face them?! :evillaugh
McPoyo 02-02-08, 10:07 AM	Could always just have him keep his coffin in a Portable Hole or the like, weightless then, and the rest of the party still has plenty of room to store extra loot in addition to the coffin. Personally, I'd just houserule a change in that to make so he doesn't need the coffin but something more manageable instead. Maybe a locket with some of his grave dirt in it or something with similar flavor. Would have to rework the "return to your coffin in mistform within X time or die once you hit 0 hp" thing a little, but it really shouldn't be hard to do it so it works with your campaign. And as long as your party doesn't mind, what does it matter that he's picking up an (inflated) LA?