Post/Author/DateTime	Post
kshade 03-06-08, 11:30 AM	Hi, this is my first stab at race creation, so expect mistakes. I'd like to get rid of the LA and make them more like I imagine them fluff- and stat-wise. Gnolls get +2 to constitution and -2 charisma, reflecting the primitive and brutal tribal culture most Gnolls adhere to They're medium-sized humanoids with a base land speed of 6 squares (30 fpr) They get low-light vision and the scent ability* because they're visibly more animal-like than the base races All Gnolls get a +4 bonus to handle animals and knowledge(nature) when dealing with Hyaenas +4 racial bonus on saving throws against poison. Alignment: Mostly CE. A lot of them worship a Demon but not all. Favored Class: Ranger * Not as powerful like RAW-Scent, look further down in this thread for ideas. Racial Feat: Gnoll Ferocity Enables your character to use its powerful yaws in combat as a natural weapon (1w6). Req: Race = Gnoll, DEX >= +1 So I made them weaker (as in STR), smarter and removed the natural AC Bonus, changed darkvision for low-light vision (why did they have it in the first place?) and gave them the opportunity to use their nose and teeth. Probably they should also get a bonus to listening checks to emphasize the predator aspect, but I left that out because I have the feeling that they might already be too powerful for LA 0. Gnolls can't drink properly from most cups or glasses, requiring the more civilized ones to use straws or other aids. They aren't native to Toril but have been transferred there by magical means, probably during the Orcgate War. They have since forgotten where they came from. Like most Races they brought some of their religion to Faerun, including a minor artifact, the Spear of Gorellik. After the events that made Yeenoghu their new "god" it was destroyed and scattered over the continent. Since it was the weapon of a divine avatar it might still hold some powers. Thays army and military police consist largely of Orcs (shock troops), Gnolls (soldiers) and Humans (specialists and commanders). There's an ongoing rivalry between the Orc and Gnoll troops. P.S.: I read english texts all the time but rarely write, so forgive me if it's a bit awkward. :)
Naderion 03-06-08, 12:09 PM	1d6 is pretty high for a natural attack and it's probably a quite strong race for warrior-characters, but I think it's okay for LA 0.
kshade 03-06-08, 12:33 PM	1d6 is pretty high for a natural attack Hum, I thought it was the normal bite attack for medium-sized animals. and it's probably a quite strong race for warrior-characters, but I think it's okay for LA 0. Nice to hear as that was my intention (well, sort of) :) Oh, I just realized that I put -2 Int in there, not -2 Cha. Fixed now.
Ecalsneerg 03-06-08, 01:20 PM	Gnolls get +2 to strength and -2 to wisdom and charisma, reflecting the primitive and brutal tribal culture most Gnolls adhere to According to the DMG, these are balanced stats, so yeah. I disagree with it, but bleurgh, you're still technically right :P They're medium-sized humanoids with a base land speed of 6 squares (30 fpr) Standard. +1 natural AC due to their thick fur (yes it goes away when they shave/burn :>) Fur wouldn't provide armour. A blade or mace ignores it. Toughened hides, that's natural armour. Mechanically however, no qualms. natural armou on a LA +0 is rare, but meh. They get low-light vision and the scent ability because they're visibly more animal-like than the base races Hmmm.... scent is a bit much for =0 LA, but I doubt it'd tip it. Natural bite weapon (1w6), but they're not proficient with it. Hyaenas have pretty strong yaws, so why not. I'd say it's balanced, they're always at -4 with it. I think the usual wording for this is "always a secondary natural weapon", allowing it to be used with a wepon but at a -5 penalty. Anyway, not a real problem either way. Overall, either a strong-ish LA +0, or a weak +1 LA. I'd dump scent for a +2 on survival, or even +4 when tracking, to make it a definite LA +0 P.S.: I read english texts all the time but rarely write, so forgive me if it's a bit awkward. :) I had no idea you were non-native until you said so. Much better than some so-called "native speakers" on these boards.
kshade 03-06-08, 02:06 PM	According to the DMG, these are balanced stats, so yeah. I disagree with it, but bleurgh, you're still technically right :P Well, according to the posting I linked above I could even go for +2 str -2 cha instead without having unbalanced stats :> Fur wouldn't provide armour. A blade or mace ignores it. Toughened hides, that's natural armour. Come to think of it, you're right. I think the bonus will stay though because Gnolls are a tougher than the average human. Hmmm.... scent is a bit much for =0 LA, but I doubt it'd tip it. Dunno, probably it is in the RAW, but as a DM I would make sure they can't smell every ambush coming (lots of WIS rolls etc). Plus it allows for nice RP situations I think. I'd say it's balanced, they're always at -4 with it. I think the usual wording for this is "always a secondary natural weapon", allowing it to be used with a wepon but at a -5 penalty. Anyway, not a real problem either way. Is that the same as "untrained, but can burn a feat to get proficient with it"? Overall, either a strong-ish LA +0, or a weak +1 LA. I'd dump scent for a +2 on survival, or even +4 when tracking, to make it a definite LA +0 Nah, I'd really like to keep scent for flavor reasons, I'd rather drop the AC bonus. I had no idea you were non-native until you said so. Thanks for commenting and complimenting :)
ciaran 03-06-08, 06:01 PM	True Gnolls suffer a penalty to both Int and Cha. I underdstand the Int penalty hurts the skill points we all love, but quite a few of their favored class's important skills are powered by Wis. It doesn't make sense to drop that. I'd suggest calling the bite attack a secondary attack instead of saying they're not proficient with it. Forcing it to be a secondary attack allows its use in a full attack, but at a minus five and with half Str. Maybe you could add some bonuses to skills from their favored class. Spot and Listen are the basic Gnoll's class skills and Move Silently would fit with their "hunter" persona.
kshade 03-07-08, 07:42 AM	True Gnolls suffer a penalty to both Int and Cha. I underdstand the Int penalty hurts the skill points we all love, but quite a few of their favored class's important skills are powered by Wis. It doesn't make sense to drop that. You're right, that's stupid. Okay, what about +2 Str, -2 Cha, 0 Nat. AC? I'd suggest calling the bite attack a secondary attack instead of saying they're not proficient with it. Forcing it to be a secondary attack allows its use in a full attack, but at a minus five and with half Str. Again, I want them to be able to sacrifice a feat to get proficient with it and I don't know if that is possible if I do as you say. Maybe you could add some bonuses to skills from their favored class. Spot and Listen are the basic Gnoll's class skills and Move Silently would fit with their "hunter" persona. Yeah, thought about that but I'm afraid of making them too powerful for LA 0.
zeratulcraft 03-07-08, 08:33 AM	Yeah I don't get why a more primal animalistic creature would actually have worse senses and perception (wisdom) as a trait.
kshade 03-07-08, 08:37 AM	Yeah I don't get why a more primal animalistic creature would actually have worse senses and perception (wisdom) as a trait. I originally put it there because their "culture" is quite insane, but you two are right. Is this still LA0? I fear not, even with the AC bonus removed. On the other hand, compared with the Dwarf this seems to be ok.
Killy 03-07-08, 03:23 PM	It's not a good idea to make them not proficient with their bite attack, making it a secondary attack is a lot wiser, they would have to spend a feat to change the penalty on attack rolls from -5 to -2. The +4 bonus with Hyaenas is kinda ridiculous... bonus to what? what are Hyaenas? And why isn't there a bonus to Listen checks? I would definitely give them a penalty on Int or Wis, but give them a bonus on Listen and Survival checks. How about this: Gnolls get +2 to Strength and Constitution, but a -2 to Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma, reflecting the primitive and brutal tribal culture most Gnolls adhere to. They're medium-sized humanoids with a base land speed of 6 squares (30 ft). They get low-light vision. They have the scent ability. Natural bite weapon (1d6). All Gnolls get a +4 bonus on Listen and Survival checks. Favored Class: Ranger Level Adjustment: +0
kshade 03-07-08, 04:21 PM	It's not a good idea to make them not proficient with their bite attack, making it a secondary attack is a lot wiser, they would have to spend a feat to change the penalty on attack rolls from -5 to -2. Why would it be unwise? The +4 bonus with Hyaenas is kinda ridiculous... bonus to what? Handle Animal mostly, but also Knowledge(Nature) etc. what are Hyaenas? If you really don't know look here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyena), if you're a wannabe spelling nazi have a look at this (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Hyaena) and be ashamed of yourself for 1d6 days. And why isn't there a bonus to Listen checks? I would definitely give them a penalty on Int or Wis, but give them a bonus on Listen and Survival checks. As I said above, I considered that but was not sure about it. Remember, this is the first time I try to make a race. How about this: Gnolls get +2 to Strength and Constitution, but a -2 to Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma, reflecting the primitive and brutal tribal culture most Gnolls adhere to. Uhm, no way this is balanced.
ciaran 03-07-08, 07:30 PM	I suggest... +2 Str, -2 Int, -2 Cha Bite as secondary attack (this is more powerful than you may think) +2 Handle Animal (maybe), Survival, Spot & Listen Low-Light Vision (Scent is a pretty beefy ability, 'specially at early levels) You're already equal to or better than the 1/2 Orc, which is the other +2 Str, +0 LA race.
zeratulcraft 03-11-08, 04:17 AM	Half Orc is far weaker than any of the other races though. Compare to Dwarf, for example.
Kadasbrass 03-11-08, 04:46 AM	Personally I'm in favor of seeing a LA 0 race with scent. Just think it needs to be balanced out better, normally would recommend doing this with a -2 Int instead of Cha, but Hyaenas are known for having a good deal intelligence. So I recommend dropping the natural weapon instead (can be abusable in conjuntion with sneak attack and getting more then one attack off). Could roundout their other traits with maybe a saving throw against disease, and or some skill bonuses related to hunting or scavenging. Also believe a +2 con is better suited for Hyaenes instead of +2 Str.
kshade 03-11-08, 06:40 AM	Half Orc is far weaker than any of the other races though. Compare to Dwarf, for example. I had the Dwarf entry open when I wrote the stats :D Personally I'm in favor of seeing a LA 0 race with scent. Just think it needs to be balanced out better, normally would recommend doing this with a -2 Int instead of Cha, but Hyaenas are known for having a good deal intelligence. Aye, that's why I never really considered lowering INT. So I recommend dropping the natural weapon instead (can be abusable in conjuntion with sneak attack and getting more then one attack off). But you would have to take a feat for effectively using it. I still don't know why so many people recommended to make it always secondary since that would mean that they could use it all the time without penalty except they wouldn't hit most of the time. What I want is that a Gnoll can use its teeth out of combat for gnawing on things and in combat only when they trained fighting like this against armed enemies (edit: um, an enemy would get an aoo if I'd attack her with a natural weapon I'm not proficient with, right?). Could roundout their other traits with maybe a saving throw against disease, and or some skill bonuses related to hunting or scavenging. Probably later. Also believe a +2 con is better suited for Hyaenes instead of +2 Str. Thought about this for a long time and I somewhat agree with you, especially since they lost their natural armor bonus. I decided against it because that would make their stats like those of the Dwarves, but come to think of it this is a stupid reason not to do it. Changed :)
Kadasbrass 03-12-08, 12:52 AM	Thought about this for a long time and I somewhat agree with you, especially since they lost their natural armor bonus. I decided against it because that would make their stats like those of the Dwarves, but come to think of it this is a stupid reason not to do it. Changed :) Making sure races are unique from one another is always a good reason to justify something sometimes. Thou in this case think we're safe since other then stats the Gnoll you got is pretty far removed from dwarf. :D
kshade 03-13-08, 06:39 AM	Making sure races are unique from one another is always a good reason to justify something sometimes. Thou in this case think we're safe since other then stats the Gnoll you got is pretty far removed from dwarf. :D Yep :D I'm still not sure about the natural weapon thing. I'd say they provoke AOOs if they try to bite someone without having trained (=being proficient) but I can't find rules on that.
ciaran 03-13-08, 07:31 PM	What does non-proficiency mean to you in terms of the bite attack? Is it just a -4 to hit? I still think making it a secondary attack would simplify things.
Neutronium_Dragon 03-13-08, 07:44 PM	You're pretty much automatically proficient with a natural weapon. The one exception (some herbivorous animals) doesn't work for gnolls. However... I'd dump the bite attack. It creates LA problems (and so does Scent) and also doesn't really fit an upright humanoid all that well. If you're looking for balanced stats then +2 Con, -2 Int works better - there's always some element of help and hurt there, whereas -2 Cha is often a nonissue. Although I originally wrote this up with the idea of it being a separate subrace, I've ended up using this stat block for standard gnolls too. ----- Plainsrunner Gnoll: Medium Humanoid (Gnoll) Base Speed 30' Low Light Vision +1 Natural Armor +1 Racial bonus to Fortitude saves +2 Racial bonus to Fortitude saves vs Disease and Poison (this stacks with their general Fortitude save bonus) Plainsrunner Gnolls have the Tireless feat Plainsrunner Gnolls gain a 5' bonus to their movement rate when carrying no more than a light load and not wearing medium or heavy armor. Favored Class: Ranger Automatic Languages: Common, Gnoll Level Adjustment: +0 -----
thefishcometh 03-13-08, 08:48 PM	I would nix the bite attack as well, especially because there's a racial feat that already tackles that. In Races of the Wild, the feat Gnoll Ferocity grants a raging gnoll a bite attack. Keep scent, though, I don't think it's as powerful as a bite attack.
Neutronium_Dragon 03-13-08, 09:36 PM	Uh, no. Scent combines an improved version of tracking with a 30' autodetection of anything which is not incorporeal. You might be able to get away with it on an LA +0 creature, but it would eat up pretty much all of your racial ability budget.
thefishcometh 03-13-08, 10:53 PM	I thought you couldn't track with scent unless you had the track feat as well. And scent is not blindsight, it just tells you if something EXISTS. I don't think its overly powerful at all, it's just another sense a character can use, and it is certainly less useful than a good Spot or Listen check. Scent will not pinpoint the location of anything unless a character is 5 feet away from it, making it difficult to use against invisible foes. Even if you can pinpoint the location of an invisible foe with scent, it will still have concealment and all that jazz.
ciaran 03-14-08, 01:14 AM	Isn't Scent tracking without Track reduced to a wisdom check without survival ranks? And the above post regarding pinpointing (or lack of) si how I've played it. Its not blindsight!!
Neutronium_Dragon 03-14-08, 02:51 AM	Without the feat it isn't as good, true - but it also doesn't suffer from many of the conditional penalties which tracking does by default, which makes it a whole lot easier to succeed on that untrained check. And if you do have Track, it's vastly better. The 30' autodetection does require an action to pinpoint - unless you move next to them. However, this still makes it effectively impossible to surprise them unless you can do so from more than 30' away. You simply can't sneak up on them or hide from them - they know you're there, even if it takes an action for them to tell exactly where. That has enormous potential. Also, consider that Scent makes it a whole lot harder to use something like Disguise against the character - and by association, against the party. Even purely roleplaying situations can be short-circuited by that single sharp nose. The official stance is thus that Scent should basically never show up without a level adjustment being applied. I think it can show up without one - but with the benefits above, it's definitely not some minor cosmetic thing that you can just slap on an otherwise-substantial set of abilities.
kshade 03-14-08, 05:51 AM	What does non-proficiency mean to you in terms of the bite attack? Is it just a -4 to hit? I still think making it a secondary attack would simplify things. -4 and provoking an AOO. But the racial feat seems fine too. Regarding Scent: As I wrote above, I would make sure they can't just smell every ambush coming. First of all I'd require them to make WIS throws to see if they can make any sense of what they're smelling (is it a couple of bandits or a flock of sheep?). Secondly most disguise spells will mask odor too because it would'nt be all that great if you're perfectly disguised as someone but all the dogs in the town growl at you. Rogues get some perfume/deodorant (:>) in their disguise kits for the same reason. Last but not least it would require a player to say that they want to "look" for a specific scent in most cases, so no more autodetection. Oh, and wouldn't a druid/ranger/any class with handle animal be able to train a dog to do most of the things listed above, especially if they can speak with animals? Probably scent isn't meant for PCs and I should make my own version...
ciaran 03-14-08, 05:54 PM	You should add that the Gnoll "is not considered armed when making a bite attack." What would change this? Imp Unarmed? Some other feat?
ChaosWolf1982 03-14-08, 06:01 PM	Being a huge gnoll fan, I fully support finding more ways to expand them into typical play.
kshade 03-14-08, 06:54 PM	You should add that the Gnoll "is not considered armed when making a bite attack." What would change this? Imp Unarmed? Some other feat? Well, first I thought the bite attack would work like unarmed strike + nonproficience, so becoming proficient with the "weapon" (i.e. being able to bite an opponent in combat with enough precision and the right timing) would eliminate the -4 and aoo-provoking. But as thefishcometh said, there's a the possibility to do this with a racial feat and I like this option more as it "encapsulates" the special rules in a standard way. Gnoll Ferocity Enables your character to use its powerful yaws in combat as a natural weapon (1w6+STR). Req: Race = Gnoll, DEX >= +1 They should, of course, still be able to do some non-combat damage to stuff when they gnaw on it. Probably not as extreme as real spotted hyaenas* but at least somewhat close. * About 1000 pounds bite force, able to crush rhino bones and light metal - Wikipedia Link, read the last three paragraphs of the Hunting & Diet section (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spotted_Hyena#Hunting_and_diet). PS: Thanks to everybody contributing to this thread :)
Thief_of_Hope 03-14-08, 07:27 PM	Hi, this is my first stab at race creation, so expect mistakes. I'd like to get rid of the LA and make them more like I imagine them fluff- and stat-wise. Gnolls get +2 to constitution and -2 charisma, reflecting the primitive and brutal tribal culture most Gnolls adhere to They're medium-sized humanoids with a base land speed of 6 squares (30 fpr) They get low-light vision and the scent ability because they're visibly more animal-like than the base races Natural bite weapon (1w6), but they're not proficient with it. Spotted Hyaenas have pretty strong yaws, so why not. All Gnolls get a +4 bonus when handling Hyaenas Alignment: Mostly CE. A lot of them worship a Demon but not all. Favored Class: Ranger So I made them weaker (as in STR), smarter and removed the natural AC Bonus, changed darkvision for low-light vision (why did they have it in the first place?) and gave them the opportunity to use their nose and teeth. Probably they should also get a bonus to listening checks to emphasize the predator aspect, but I left that out because I have the feeling that they might already be too powerful for LA 0. Gnolls can't drink properly from most cups or glasses, requiring the more civilized ones to use straws or other aids. They aren't native to Toril but have been transferred there by magical means, probably during the Orcgate War. They have since forgotten where they came from. Like most Races they brought some of their religion to Faerun, including a minor artifact, the Spear of Gorellik. After the events that made Yeenoghu their new "god" it was destroyed and scattered over the continent. Since it was the weapon of a divine avatar it might still hold some powers. Thays army and military police consist largely of Orcs (shock troops), Gnolls (soldiers) and Humans (specialists and commanders). There's an ongoing rivalry between the Orc and Gnoll troops. P.S.: I read english texts all the time but rarely write, so forgive me if it's a bit awkward. :) From this, it looks fine to me. It's a simple but flavorful race build that looks as if it would be fun to play. I think it was clever what you did with the bite attack, since what's normally so powerful about natural attacks is offset by the fact that you either take a -4 attack with it or lose a feat, both of which are significant. The low-light vision and scent also give a good idea of the wild, animalistic ways of them. I would suggest rewording the bonus for hyaenas to specify that the bonus applies to Handle Animal and Knowledge (Nature) checks when used for hyaenas, just so it can be clear to anyone reading the entry what it entails. I also think that the scent ability isn't nearly as game-breaking as some people seem to believe, and quite honestly, I think that it presents a good opportunity for creativity on the part of the DM. Any NPC who knows about the party will know that the gnoll is a part of it, and that gnolls have dog-like noses. So they'll take precautions against this (heavy odors with disuises, troglodyte musk to shut down their scent for a while, etc.). Do you mind if I use your system for PCs using the scent ability? I like that they have to figure out what the odor is rather than just walking into a room and saying "There's a drow in here." I also really like the flavor notes you gave, I think details like that are great, especially for such an underappreciated race. Kudos. I'd also just like to say that I like that you're making gnolls more accessible as a PC race. This looks like it would be fun to play, and I may very well use it for the next ranger I make. Well done.
kshade 03-14-08, 08:03 PM	From this, it looks fine to me. It's a simple but flavorful race build that looks as if it would be fun to play. [...] I also really like the flavor notes you gave, I think details like that are great, especially for such an underappreciated race. Kudos. Thanks, that was my intention :) I would suggest rewording the bonus for hyaenas to specify that the bonus applies to Handle Animal and Knowledge (Nature) checks when used for hyaenas, just so it can be clear to anyone reading the entry what it entails. Done. I also think that the scent ability isn't nearly as game-breaking as some people seem to believe, and quite honestly, I think that it presents a good opportunity for creativity on the part of the DM. Any NPC who knows about the party will know that the gnoll is a part of it, and that gnolls have dog-like noses. So they'll take precautions against this (heavy odors with disuises, troglodyte musk to shut down their scent for a while, etc.). I agree, but there's a problem with the scent ability: It probably was never intended for PC races and therefore is pretty simplistic. Also, there aren't as many spells, items and rules available as for other senses, so this indeed requires the DM to adapt or it would be far to powerful. Do you mind if I use your system for PCs using the scent ability? I like that they have to figure out what the odor is rather than just walking into a room and saying "There's a drow in here." I don't mind if you do, but sadly there is no system yet, only a vague idea. What's missing is a table like this: Scent check difficulty modificators (base=10) Very Familiar Odor -15 Close friends, own coat etc Familiar Odor -10 Things the Character knows (Bananas, Orcs) Full of smells +5 Crowded places etc Penetrating smell +5 If the PC wants to find the penetrating smell it's -10 Awfull stench +15 If you're a spellcaster or similar make a concentration check against DC 15 Everything worse will disable the scent ability for 1d6 hours (Save: Probably :>) No wind -2 Tumbleweed just sits there, waiting... Windy +5 Tumbleweed tumbles Stormy +15 Tumbleweed flies! ...
Thief_of_Hope 03-16-08, 01:19 AM	I don't mind if you do, but sadly there is no system yet, only a vague idea. What's missing is a table like this: Scent check difficulty modificators (base=10) Very Familiar Odor -15 Close friends, own coat etc Familiar Odor -10 Things the Character knows (Bananas, Orcs) Full of smells +5 Crowded places etc Penetrating smell +5 If the PC wants to find the penetrating smell it's -10 Awfull stench +15 If you're a spellcaster or similar make a concentration check against DC 15 Everything worse will disable the scent ability for 1d6 hours (Save: Probably :>) No wind -2 Tumbleweed just sits there, waiting... Windy +5 Tumbleweed tumbles Stormy +15 Tumbleweed flies! ... Looks like a grand start to me. This is what I found on it from the SRD: This extraordinary ability lets a creature detect approaching enemies, sniff out hidden foes, and track by sense of smell. A creature with the scent ability can detect opponents by sense of smell, generally within 30 feet. If the opponent is upwind, the range is 60 feet. If it is downwind, the range is 15 feet. Strong scents, such as smoke or rotting garbage, can be detected at twice the ranges noted above. Overpowering scents, such as skunk musk or troglodyte stench, can be detected at three times these ranges. The creature detects another creature’s presence but not its specific location. Noting the direction of the scent is a move action. If it moves within 5 feet of the scent’s source, the creature can pinpoint that source. A creature with the Track feat and the scent ability can follow tracks by smell, making a Wisdom check to find or follow a track. The typical DC for a fresh trail is 10. The DC increases or decreases depending on how strong the quarry’s odor is, the number of creatures, and the age of the trail. For each hour that the trail is cold, the DC increases by 2. The ability otherwise follows the rules for the Track feat. Creatures tracking by scent ignore the effects of surface conditions and poor visibility. Creatures with the scent ability can identify familiar odors just as humans do familiar sights. Water, particularly running water, ruins a trail for air-breathing creatures. Water-breathing creatures that have the scent ability, however, can use it in the water easily. False, powerful odors can easily mask other scents. The presence of such an odor completely spoils the ability to properly detect or identify creatures, and the base Survival DC to track becomes 20 rather than 10. That gives all the general stuff for range and actions, and notes that it's +2 DC for each hour that has passed since whatever you're smelling has been gone. Combine with your example list, and that looks like a pretty nice table for the whole deal. Actually, maybe I'll run this by my current DM, since my current character actually has scent, but he hasn't been sure how to run it exactly. I think this will solve some problems! I agree with you that the given rules are pretty simplistic, but the fact that Level Adjustments made various scent-using monsters able to be played as PCs, as well as Prestige Classes like the Bloodhound from Complete Adventurer, should have given them a clue that they needed some more polish on such rules. Both of these are cases of players having access to scent, not to mention your previous mention of a character with a dog. Actually, I would've sworn that Gnomes in 3.0 were noted as being able to get the Scent ability with the use of a feat because of their keen noses. Does anyone else remember something like that? I still have my 3.0 Player's Handbook, but I won't have the chance to take a look at it until later this month.
kshade 03-16-08, 08:32 AM	That gives all the general stuff for range and actions, and notes that it's +2 DC for each hour that has passed since whatever you're smelling has been gone. The +2 seems like a good idea. Combine with your example list, and that looks like a pretty nice table for the whole deal. Actually, maybe I'll run this by my current DM, since my current character actually has scent, but he hasn't been sure how to run it exactly. I think this will solve some problems! Okay, but keep in mind that I just made the list up on the spot. If you show it to him tell me what he said :) I agree with you that the given rules are pretty simplistic, but the fact that Level Adjustments made various scent-using monsters able to be played as PCs, as well as Prestige Classes like the Bloodhound from Complete Adventurer, should have given them a clue that they needed some more polish on such rules. Both of these are cases of players having access to scent, not to mention your previous mention of a character with a dog. True. I wonder if there are any rules regarding to scent in RotW.
kshade 03-19-08, 04:13 PM	*bump* No more comments on this? I updated the first post a little and will forward it to my fellow dm in a couple of days. Oh, and I made a comparison between the PHB dwarf and my Gnoll race: Dwarf Gnoll Comment ===== ===== ======= Moves 20fpr, but doesn't 30fpr but normal Slight advantage for care about medium/heavy speed reduction. dwarves I think load and armor Darkvision Low-Light vision Darkvision is quite powerfull, even compared to Low-Light vision. Stonecunning +4 on handle The +2 isn't all that +2 on search animals for great, but finding (even passive) hyaenas traps without actually regarding to looking for them unusual stonework, is pretty good. can find stone traps like rogues. +2 saving throw +4 saving throw twice as good against poison against poison / Racial Feat allows Quite nice actually 1d6 bite weapon if you want it. Stability / +4 against trip/bull rush +2 st against spells / +1 ab against orcs / and goblins +4 ac (dodge) against / gigants +2 bonus on appraise / when dealing with metal +2 on craft checks / when dealing with stone or metal And compared to the other PHB races my stats don't seem overly powerful I think, there are no immunities (like elves have for sleep spells) or spell-like effects (gnomes). They probably compare nicely to the halfling in power level :D
fiendkiller 03-19-08, 04:20 PM	I would extend the Handle Animals to all wild dogs.
kshade 03-19-08, 04:33 PM	I would extend the Handle Animals to all wild dogs. If Hyaenas were dogs or even Canids (http://species.wikimedia.org/wiki/Hyaenidae) I probably would :P P.S.: Wrote some more stuff in the above post.
ChaosWolf1982 03-19-08, 04:43 PM	To note, I've been using this thread as a baseline for playing my own gnoll character, and it is quite well-received. Good work.