Pixie Savage progression [Archive] - Wizards Community

Pixie Savage progression [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Rebel7284
02-06-08, 02:18 AM I am a new DM, one of my players would like to play a pixie. Since I am starting at level 2, I need to get an ability progression for it. Looking at the chart in Savage Species, I have several questions.

1) Is it accurate? I can see minor changes like confusion being changed to lesser confusion in 3.5, but is there anything else I'm missing?

2) Why (6 +INT mod) X 4 Skill points at first level? I'm assuming the final result should look identical to taking a fully developed fey and adding 1 class level (I assume that's why the chart shows 5 levels, it's counting the first class level, right?) In any case, shouldn't the points then depend on the class the pixie is planning to take? I'm tempted to just withdraw all skill bonuses until the pixie is gaining actual class HD. Also its INT changes after it gets the skill points, which may mean a discrepancy between the suggested number and what a character using the standard system would have.

Anyway, if anyone has an explanation about how this is supposed to work, I would greatly appreciate it.
Saedar
02-07-08, 11:13 PM The problem with the Savage progression from SS is that it is for the 3.0 pixie. With the 3.5 revision, there were a number of significant changes to the race. Another example of big revisions would be the imp. You are probably better off designing a savage progression of your own unless someone else here on the boards has built one (which is quite likely).
Thraxis
02-07-08, 11:35 PM 1.) besides the cosmetic spell changes, the SS version works fine. You will, however, want to add DR and SR into it, I wouls suggest DR 5/cold iron and SR 10 at level 2, and DR 10/cold iron and SR 15 at level 4.

2.) they DO NOT get class levels during any of that time. They have one racial HD, and 4 levels of level adjustment. The "empty" levels do not give HD, HP, saves, skills, feats, or ANYTHING ELSE earned through levelling up, unless listed in that chart. These "empty" levels are designed to balance the pixie's inate power, such as its natural invisibility and spell-like abilities. The reason the pixie gets 4x(6+int) skills at first level, is because that is the skill level for a fey creature. I repeat, those levels are "empty" for a reason, DO NOT give class levels in them.
*note* the first level is a "level in fey". it is a racial HD, and is NOT a class level.
Rebel7284
02-08-08, 01:07 AM 1.) besides the cosmetic spell changes, the SS version works fine. You will, however, want to add DR and SR into it, I wouls suggest DR 5/cold iron and SR 10 at level 2, and DR 10/cold iron and SR 15 at level 4.

2.) they DO NOT get class levels during any of that time. They have one racial HD, and 4 levels of level adjustment. The "empty" levels do not give HD, HP, saves, skills, feats, or ANYTHING ELSE earned through levelling up, unless listed in that chart. These "empty" levels are designed to balance the pixie's inate power, such as its natural invisibility and spell-like abilities. The reason the pixie gets 4x(6+int) skills at first level, is because that is the skill level for a fey creature. I repeat, those levels are "empty" for a reason, DO NOT give class levels in them.
*note* the first level is a "level in fey". it is a racial HD, and is NOT a class level.

The SS does give SR at level 5, I will have to add DR.

I was not planning to add any class abilities. Basically, the question is that since the class hit die replaces the first hit die of the savage progression, how/when do i replace it. If i replaced it with a wizard for example, does it hit points immediately drop from 4+con to 3+con? Do the skill points drop from (6 + int) X 4 to (2 + (the now different!?!) INT) X 4?

Also, except for the DR and confusion becoming lesser confusion, are there any other differences that I missed?
runestar
02-08-08, 01:17 AM Basically, the question is that since the class hit die replaces the first hit die of the savage progression, how/when do i replace it.

At 1st lv. So you get the benefits of your 1st class lv for 5 lvs, and can take your 2nd class lv at ECL6.

If i replaced it with a wizard for example, does it hit points immediately drop from 4+con to 3+con? Do the skill points drop from (6 + int) X 4 to (2 + (the now different!?!) INT) X 4?

It would drop from 6+con to 4+con, and get 2+int mod skill points.

Also, as a special exception to the rules, I would allow any racial int increases due to the pixie progression to grant extra skill points retroactively, so that you end up with the same amount of skill points.:)
Rebel7284
02-08-08, 01:44 AM At 1st lv. So you get the benefits of your 1st class lv for 5 lvs, and can take your 2nd class lv at ECL6.

Hmr? so a player planning to go into rogue actually has trapfinding and 1D6 sneak attack from level 1? it just doesn't increase until level 6?

And good houserule about the skillpoints. :)
runestar
02-08-08, 02:37 AM Hmr? so a player planning to go into rogue actually has trapfinding and 1D6 sneak attack from level 1? it just doesn't increase until level 6?

That would be the way I interpret it. You need at least 1HD to start, and it should be less cumbersome than starting with 1 fey HD, then replacing it with 1 class lv at 5th lv (and changing all your stats). Plus, properly chosen, your 1st class lv should help make life more bearable.

For example, your racial stat bonuses would help keep your rogue skills relevant despite your LA (so that they would be comparable to those of a rogue of your ECL). Permanent invis allows for more consistent sneak attack damage via ranged weaponry, so you can at least deal a little damage during combat.
Rebel7284
02-08-08, 11:29 AM Thank you runestar.

Anyone have an alternate interpretation before i tell my player that she can sneak attack after all.
Magrus
02-08-08, 12:28 PM You can do what you want, but technically, your player should be stuck with 1 Fey HD from level 1 and make the full Pixie Progression until its done. Only then should she be able to take a level in any other class. I've got a player with a pixie character now, and its the trade off they've got to make for being a flying, constantly invisible, nearly immune to spells and with stats out the wazoo character.
EvilVegan
02-08-08, 12:45 PM Also, make sure that everything the pixie has is something player wants, becasue they have crazy ability score adjustments. Without those adjustments you can lower the LA considerably (and keep the rest).
Here's the Pixie I use, but it isn't a savage progression. . .

Pixie Racial Traits
• -4 Strength, +4 Dexterity
• Small size. +1 bonus to Armor Class, +1 bonus on attack rolls, +4 bonus on Hide checks, -4 penalty on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits ž those of Medium characters.
• A pixie’s base land speed is 20 feet. It also has a fly speed of 60 feet (good).
• Low-light vision.
• Skills: Pixies have a +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks.
• Racial Feats: A pixie receives Dodge and Weapon Finesse as bonus feats.
• Spell-like abilities: 1/day—lesser confusion (DC 14), dancing lights, detect chaos, detect good, detect evil, detect law, detect thoughts (DC 15), dispel magic, entangle (DC 14), permanent image (DC 19; visual and auditory elements only). Caster level 8th. The save DCs are Charisma-based. One pixie in ten can use irresistible dance (caster level 8th) once per day.
• Special Qualities (see above): Damage reduction 10/cold iron, greater invisibility, spell resistance equal to 15 + class levels.
• Automatic Languages: Common, Sylvan. Bonus Languages: Elven, Gnome, Halfling.
• Favored Class: Sorcerer.
• Level adjustment +3

Without racial hit dice I don't know if they make a reasonable progression.

Take the 1st level as a class level, then the next 3 are gaining pixie abilities.

Greater Invisibility, Full flight, and polymorph (and irresitible dance if they have it) would be the last things they gained.

Maybe a lesser or regular invisibility to begin with, bonus feats at 1st and 2nd level. Dodge before finesse
Squaba
02-08-08, 12:52 PM Hmr? so a player planning to go into rogue actually has trapfinding and 1D6 sneak attack from level 1? it just doesn't increase until level 6?

And good houserule about the skillpoints. :)

No that's not how it works. At level one through level 5 a Pixie is a first level Pixie, it doesnt have a class. At level 6 it gains its first level in a class and then progresses normally. Your Pixie rogue wont have backstab or trapfind until it gets to level 6 ECL.
Rebel7284
02-08-08, 01:10 PM No that's not how it works. At level one through level 5 a Pixie is a first level Pixie, it doesnt have a class. At level 6 it gains its first level in a class and then progresses normally. Your Pixie rogue wont have backstab or trapfind until it gets to level 6 ECL.

But the racial hit die is REPLACED by the class hit die, so at worst, they should have the rogue abilities at level 5, not 6.

Unless you're saying that at level 6 you become a level 2 rogue and retroactively change the hit die from the first 5 levels into rogue 1.
Squaba
02-08-08, 01:56 PM But the racial hit die is REPLACED by the class hit die, so at worst, they should have the rogue abilities at level 5, not 6.

In order for a pixie to gain all the abilities under the "pixie class" it must progress through all five levels of its racial class, meaning it cant take a class level untill it gets to level six and no longer needs to progress in the racial class. The pixie's racial hit die is a d6, so it will get 5d6+con hp at level five. At level 1 it gets (6+int mod)x4 skill points and gains no more skills points untill level six and it's first level in a core class. This is all right out of the SS.

If you choose to go the MM route then you can replace the 1 HD with a level in a class (meaning your ECL is 5, or ECL 7 if you have dance, but you are a level one class of your choice) You gain the standard skills for your level one class, but wont level up for at least five, or six, levels when you hit 6 or 7 and take your second level in a class.

My suggestion is take the SS route, get the extra hit die and the ability to use dance (if you have a 20 cha) at level 6 instead of 8. This will allow you to surrvive the progression with the other members of the class.
ikki
02-08-08, 02:24 PM intrestingly enough the system claims racial hd and class hd are equal to one another... so interchanging shouldnt be a problem ;)
Squaba
02-08-08, 02:30 PM intrestingly enough the system claims racial hd and class hd are equal to one another... so interchanging shouldnt be a problem ;)

Where does it make that claim?
runestar
02-08-08, 07:03 PM My suggestion is take the SS route, get the extra hit die and the ability to use dance (if you have a 20 cha) at level 6 instead of 8. This will allow you to surrvive the progression with the other members of the class.

It is not an extra HD, you are paying a lv for it, a lv which could just as readily have been a useful class lv instead of 1 crummy fey HD.

Since ECL = HD+LA, you still pay an ECL of 5 regardless of whether the pixie uses its 1 fey HD or 1 class lv. I am sure I do not need to explicitly spell out the disparities in power level between a crummy fey HD and a class lv which actually does something, such as rogue.:)

I don't think dance is that useful either. +2LA means 2 less class lvs, which would offer more utility than 1 extra SLA usable 1/day.
Squaba
02-08-08, 09:35 PM It is not an extra HD, you are paying a lv for it, a lv which could just as readily have been a useful class lv instead of 1 crummy fey HD.

Since ECL = HD+LA, you still pay an ECL of 5 regardless of whether the pixie uses its 1 fey HD or 1 class lv. I am sure I do not need to explicitly spell out the disparities in power level between a crummy fey HD and a class lv which actually does something, such as rogue.:)

He's starting at level 2, not level 5, so untill he gets enough exp. to be level 6 he's not going to gain another hit die. Taking the SS progression allows him to get 5 hit die, not the single one, thus helping his character survive. His options are level up 5 times as a pixie, and get 5 HD for it. Or he could not level up five times, wait untill he gains the experience to be level 6 and gain one hit die, thus giving you 2.
runestar
02-08-08, 11:15 PM Taking the SS progression allows him to get 5 hit die, not the single one

I suggest you familiarize yourself with how LA works.

The SS progression does not grant him any extra HD, it merely lets him play a powerful race at a lower lv. By your recommendation, he is still stuck with 1 fey racial HD and +4LA.

Note that these +4LA do not grant any extra HD whatsoever!

His options are level up 5 times as a pixie, and get 5 HD for it.

To reiterate myself, his options are:

1) Start with 1 fey HD, take 5 lvs in the pixie progression, then take his 1st class lv at ECL6

2) Start with 1 class lv, take 5 lvs, then take your 2nd class lv at ECL6.

Either way, he still has only 1 HD until lv5. I say again: LA does not grant any sort of benefit whatsoever. It is there only as a penalty to balance out all the benefits you get as a pixie. No extra hp/skills/bab/saves etc.

I believe I do not need to explain why I feel option 2 is the better one.;)
Squaba
02-08-08, 11:27 PM I see where I was going wrong, in the progression in the SS it has a hit dice colum and in all five levels of the progression it has 1d6. I didnt realize that it was only showing the total HD, not the HD gained per level.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rebel7284 02-06-08, 02:18 AM	I am a new DM, one of my players would like to play a pixie. Since I am starting at level 2, I need to get an ability progression for it. Looking at the chart in Savage Species, I have several questions. 1) Is it accurate? I can see minor changes like confusion being changed to lesser confusion in 3.5, but is there anything else I'm missing? 2) Why (6 +INT mod) X 4 Skill points at first level? I'm assuming the final result should look identical to taking a fully developed fey and adding 1 class level (I assume that's why the chart shows 5 levels, it's counting the first class level, right?) In any case, shouldn't the points then depend on the class the pixie is planning to take? I'm tempted to just withdraw all skill bonuses until the pixie is gaining actual class HD. Also its INT changes after it gets the skill points, which may mean a discrepancy between the suggested number and what a character using the standard system would have. Anyway, if anyone has an explanation about how this is supposed to work, I would greatly appreciate it.
Saedar 02-07-08, 11:13 PM	The problem with the Savage progression from SS is that it is for the 3.0 pixie. With the 3.5 revision, there were a number of significant changes to the race. Another example of big revisions would be the imp. You are probably better off designing a savage progression of your own unless someone else here on the boards has built one (which is quite likely).
Thraxis 02-07-08, 11:35 PM	1.) besides the cosmetic spell changes, the SS version works fine. You will, however, want to add DR and SR into it, I wouls suggest DR 5/cold iron and SR 10 at level 2, and DR 10/cold iron and SR 15 at level 4. 2.) they DO NOT get class levels during any of that time. They have one racial HD, and 4 levels of level adjustment. The "empty" levels do not give HD, HP, saves, skills, feats, or ANYTHING ELSE earned through levelling up, unless listed in that chart. These "empty" levels are designed to balance the pixie's inate power, such as its natural invisibility and spell-like abilities. The reason the pixie gets 4x(6+int) skills at first level, is because that is the skill level for a fey creature. I repeat, those levels are "empty" for a reason, DO NOT give class levels in them. note the first level is a "level in fey". it is a racial HD, and is NOT a class level.
Rebel7284 02-08-08, 01:07 AM	1.) besides the cosmetic spell changes, the SS version works fine. You will, however, want to add DR and SR into it, I wouls suggest DR 5/cold iron and SR 10 at level 2, and DR 10/cold iron and SR 15 at level 4. 2.) they DO NOT get class levels during any of that time. They have one racial HD, and 4 levels of level adjustment. The "empty" levels do not give HD, HP, saves, skills, feats, or ANYTHING ELSE earned through levelling up, unless listed in that chart. These "empty" levels are designed to balance the pixie's inate power, such as its natural invisibility and spell-like abilities. The reason the pixie gets 4x(6+int) skills at first level, is because that is the skill level for a fey creature. I repeat, those levels are "empty" for a reason, DO NOT give class levels in them. note the first level is a "level in fey". it is a racial HD, and is NOT a class level. The SS does give SR at level 5, I will have to add DR. I was not planning to add any class abilities. Basically, the question is that since the class hit die replaces the first hit die of the savage progression, how/when do i replace it. If i replaced it with a wizard for example, does it hit points immediately drop from 4+con to 3+con? Do the skill points drop from (6 + int) X 4 to (2 + (the now different!?!) INT) X 4? Also, except for the DR and confusion becoming lesser confusion, are there any other differences that I missed?
runestar 02-08-08, 01:17 AM	Basically, the question is that since the class hit die replaces the first hit die of the savage progression, how/when do i replace it. At 1st lv. So you get the benefits of your 1st class lv for 5 lvs, and can take your 2nd class lv at ECL6. If i replaced it with a wizard for example, does it hit points immediately drop from 4+con to 3+con? Do the skill points drop from (6 + int) X 4 to (2 + (the now different!?!) INT) X 4? It would drop from 6+con to 4+con, and get 2+int mod skill points. Also, as a special exception to the rules, I would allow any racial int increases due to the pixie progression to grant extra skill points retroactively, so that you end up with the same amount of skill points.:)
Rebel7284 02-08-08, 01:44 AM	At 1st lv. So you get the benefits of your 1st class lv for 5 lvs, and can take your 2nd class lv at ECL6. Hmr? so a player planning to go into rogue actually has trapfinding and 1D6 sneak attack from level 1? it just doesn't increase until level 6? And good houserule about the skillpoints. :)
runestar 02-08-08, 02:37 AM	Hmr? so a player planning to go into rogue actually has trapfinding and 1D6 sneak attack from level 1? it just doesn't increase until level 6? That would be the way I interpret it. You need at least 1HD to start, and it should be less cumbersome than starting with 1 fey HD, then replacing it with 1 class lv at 5th lv (and changing all your stats). Plus, properly chosen, your 1st class lv should help make life more bearable. For example, your racial stat bonuses would help keep your rogue skills relevant despite your LA (so that they would be comparable to those of a rogue of your ECL). Permanent invis allows for more consistent sneak attack damage via ranged weaponry, so you can at least deal a little damage during combat.
Rebel7284 02-08-08, 11:29 AM	Thank you runestar. Anyone have an alternate interpretation before i tell my player that she can sneak attack after all.
Magrus 02-08-08, 12:28 PM	You can do what you want, but technically, your player should be stuck with 1 Fey HD from level 1 and make the full Pixie Progression until its done. Only then should she be able to take a level in any other class. I've got a player with a pixie character now, and its the trade off they've got to make for being a flying, constantly invisible, nearly immune to spells and with stats out the wazoo character.
EvilVegan 02-08-08, 12:45 PM	Also, make sure that everything the pixie has is something player wants, becasue they have crazy ability score adjustments. Without those adjustments you can lower the LA considerably (and keep the rest). Here's the Pixie I use, but it isn't a savage progression. . . Pixie Racial Traits • -4 Strength, +4 Dexterity • Small size. +1 bonus to Armor Class, +1 bonus on attack rolls, +4 bonus on Hide checks, -4 penalty on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits ž those of Medium characters. • A pixie’s base land speed is 20 feet. It also has a fly speed of 60 feet (good). • Low-light vision. • Skills: Pixies have a +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. • Racial Feats: A pixie receives Dodge and Weapon Finesse as bonus feats. • Spell-like abilities: 1/day—lesser confusion (DC 14), dancing lights, detect chaos, detect good, detect evil, detect law, detect thoughts (DC 15), dispel magic, entangle (DC 14), permanent image (DC 19; visual and auditory elements only). Caster level 8th. The save DCs are Charisma-based. One pixie in ten can use irresistible dance (caster level 8th) once per day. • Special Qualities (see above): Damage reduction 10/cold iron, greater invisibility, spell resistance equal to 15 + class levels. • Automatic Languages: Common, Sylvan. Bonus Languages: Elven, Gnome, Halfling. • Favored Class: Sorcerer. • Level adjustment +3 Without racial hit dice I don't know if they make a reasonable progression. Take the 1st level as a class level, then the next 3 are gaining pixie abilities. Greater Invisibility, Full flight, and polymorph (and irresitible dance if they have it) would be the last things they gained. Maybe a lesser or regular invisibility to begin with, bonus feats at 1st and 2nd level. Dodge before finesse
Squaba 02-08-08, 12:52 PM	Hmr? so a player planning to go into rogue actually has trapfinding and 1D6 sneak attack from level 1? it just doesn't increase until level 6? And good houserule about the skillpoints. :) No that's not how it works. At level one through level 5 a Pixie is a first level Pixie, it doesnt have a class. At level 6 it gains its first level in a class and then progresses normally. Your Pixie rogue wont have backstab or trapfind until it gets to level 6 ECL.
Rebel7284 02-08-08, 01:10 PM	No that's not how it works. At level one through level 5 a Pixie is a first level Pixie, it doesnt have a class. At level 6 it gains its first level in a class and then progresses normally. Your Pixie rogue wont have backstab or trapfind until it gets to level 6 ECL. But the racial hit die is REPLACED by the class hit die, so at worst, they should have the rogue abilities at level 5, not 6. Unless you're saying that at level 6 you become a level 2 rogue and retroactively change the hit die from the first 5 levels into rogue 1.
Squaba 02-08-08, 01:56 PM	But the racial hit die is REPLACED by the class hit die, so at worst, they should have the rogue abilities at level 5, not 6. In order for a pixie to gain all the abilities under the "pixie class" it must progress through all five levels of its racial class, meaning it cant take a class level untill it gets to level six and no longer needs to progress in the racial class. The pixie's racial hit die is a d6, so it will get 5d6+con hp at level five. At level 1 it gets (6+int mod)x4 skill points and gains no more skills points untill level six and it's first level in a core class. This is all right out of the SS. If you choose to go the MM route then you can replace the 1 HD with a level in a class (meaning your ECL is 5, or ECL 7 if you have dance, but you are a level one class of your choice) You gain the standard skills for your level one class, but wont level up for at least five, or six, levels when you hit 6 or 7 and take your second level in a class. My suggestion is take the SS route, get the extra hit die and the ability to use dance (if you have a 20 cha) at level 6 instead of 8. This will allow you to surrvive the progression with the other members of the class.
ikki 02-08-08, 02:24 PM	intrestingly enough the system claims racial hd and class hd are equal to one another... so interchanging shouldnt be a problem ;)
Squaba 02-08-08, 02:30 PM	intrestingly enough the system claims racial hd and class hd are equal to one another... so interchanging shouldnt be a problem ;) Where does it make that claim?
runestar 02-08-08, 07:03 PM	My suggestion is take the SS route, get the extra hit die and the ability to use dance (if you have a 20 cha) at level 6 instead of 8. This will allow you to surrvive the progression with the other members of the class. It is not an extra HD, you are paying a lv for it, a lv which could just as readily have been a useful class lv instead of 1 crummy fey HD. Since ECL = HD+LA, you still pay an ECL of 5 regardless of whether the pixie uses its 1 fey HD or 1 class lv. I am sure I do not need to explicitly spell out the disparities in power level between a crummy fey HD and a class lv which actually does something, such as rogue.:) I don't think dance is that useful either. +2LA means 2 less class lvs, which would offer more utility than 1 extra SLA usable 1/day.
Squaba 02-08-08, 09:35 PM	It is not an extra HD, you are paying a lv for it, a lv which could just as readily have been a useful class lv instead of 1 crummy fey HD. Since ECL = HD+LA, you still pay an ECL of 5 regardless of whether the pixie uses its 1 fey HD or 1 class lv. I am sure I do not need to explicitly spell out the disparities in power level between a crummy fey HD and a class lv which actually does something, such as rogue.:) He's starting at level 2, not level 5, so untill he gets enough exp. to be level 6 he's not going to gain another hit die. Taking the SS progression allows him to get 5 hit die, not the single one, thus helping his character survive. His options are level up 5 times as a pixie, and get 5 HD for it. Or he could not level up five times, wait untill he gains the experience to be level 6 and gain one hit die, thus giving you 2.
runestar 02-08-08, 11:15 PM	Taking the SS progression allows him to get 5 hit die, not the single one I suggest you familiarize yourself with how LA works. The SS progression does not grant him any extra HD, it merely lets him play a powerful race at a lower lv. By your recommendation, he is still stuck with 1 fey racial HD and +4LA. Note that these +4LA do not grant any extra HD whatsoever! His options are level up 5 times as a pixie, and get 5 HD for it. To reiterate myself, his options are: 1) Start with 1 fey HD, take 5 lvs in the pixie progression, then take his 1st class lv at ECL6 2) Start with 1 class lv, take 5 lvs, then take your 2nd class lv at ECL6. Either way, he still has only 1 HD until lv5. I say again: LA does not grant any sort of benefit whatsoever. It is there only as a penalty to balance out all the benefits you get as a pixie. No extra hp/skills/bab/saves etc. I believe I do not need to explain why I feel option 2 is the better one.;)
Squaba 02-08-08, 11:27 PM	I see where I was going wrong, in the progression in the SS it has a hit dice colum and in all five levels of the progression it has 1d6. I didnt realize that it was only showing the total HD, not the HD gained per level.