| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| criticalstriker03-31-07, 04:16 PM | The pixie from the MM has +4 LA. He receives -4str, +8 dex, +6 int, +4 wis, +6 cha and is small sized. They get greater invisibility permanently, Dr 10 and spell resistance 15 + class levels. Doesn't all that warrant more then a LA 4? |
| snakeman83003-31-07, 05:23 PM | I'd say yes. Pixies are overpowered for their LA (don't forget the fact they can fly). |
| Teydyn03-31-07, 07:30 PM | Uhhh, fear the mighty pixie warrior, fear the pixie wizard, sorcerer or other spellcaster... NOT! Is there anything besides a rogue (or maybe an archer) that would be worth the lost 4 levels? |
| FreAkOuTRG03-31-07, 07:37 PM | I bet ToB would be pretty good for pixies. Their LA should be 8-12, maybe even more. |
| Lotus Crane03-31-07, 08:06 PM | Pixies have enough LA already. Most monsters actually have too much LA to justify their use as any sort of PC. |
| Teydyn03-31-07, 08:54 PM | Their LA should be 8-12, maybe even more. Sorry, but what are you smoking? Compare a pixie to a human at ECL 5, 10, 15, 20 and look if you rather play the pixie or the human. Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger, Paladin Human has 4 more STR and 4 more BAB (Thats what a fighter needs) Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Wizard Human has 4 more Casterlevels. 4! Thats like... 4!!! (Yes, 2 Spell Levels are that much better) Druid Are you kidding me? Horrible Wildshape. Monk Muahahahahahaha. No STR, medium BAB, tiny size. Bard Ok, maybe this could be worth it, an invisible, flying +1 morale bonus to attack.... Rogue Now we are talking, the only class that takes great advantage of the greater invisibility. Is a pixie worth the 4 levels? IMO no (Maybe the rogue) Would a pixie be worth 3 levels (anything except rogue)? Maybe, except the full casters |
| El_Machinae03-31-07, 09:12 PM | I'm under the impression that you have a play a pixie pretty carefully if you want them to survive. Their LA is not crippling, but you are still pretty weak; despite the bonuses. |
| runestar03-31-07, 09:38 PM | It is true that they are quite strong for their LA, but the problem with too much LA is that they then become far too fragile to survive. As it is, they have to struggle from 1st lv to 5th lv on a single class lv HD. While flight, dr, se, good AC and natural invis go a long way towards aiding survival, a lucky crit may still do you in. |
| Lotus Crane03-31-07, 09:46 PM | Hell, if you have only 1 HD while facing CR 5 encounters, a lucky normal hit, or even a common dungeon trap, might do you in. |
| Argaud03-31-07, 09:53 PM | Hell, if you have only 1 HD while facing CR 5 encounters, a lucky normal hit, or even a common dungeon trap, might do you in. DR10 will cover that pretty well. But a lucky magic missile getting through the SR... LA+4 is fair enough: They can't use their awesome mental abilities well, since as primary spellcasters they are 4 levels behind. The SR=HD+15 is actually down to ECL+11 due to the LA. The permanent invisibility is good, but at mid-high level everybody can get through that, and also fly. |
| Nifft03-31-07, 10:04 PM | Rogue is the perfect class for the Pixie. It's not durable in melee, but that's fine, since that's not its main role. As a Rogue sniper, they are just fine. They're also okay as skill-monkeys, since their high Int, Wis, Dex and Cha bonuses allow them to be only a little bit behind the skill checks of their human peers. Their biggest vulnerability -- area spells or effects like dragon's breath -- is also compensated nicely by Evasion. (They should mildly the Wizard with see invisibility and a wand of glitterdust, though.) - - - IMHO, unlike most critters with a high LA, the Pixie is sometimes worth it. :) Cheers, -- N |
| benihana03-31-07, 10:07 PM | I'm playing a higher-end (ability scores 3d6+1d8, drop lowest) anything goes game. We've got a pixie player. On the one hand, he very rarely gets hit and even more rarely takes damage. On the other hand, he's totally freaking useless except for his rod of wonder. |
| Jaxgaret04-01-07, 02:14 AM | They can't use their awesome mental abilities well, since as primary spellcasters they are 4 levels behind. Thus Pixies make for incredible Sublime Chords, due to the SC's advanced spellcasting progression and the Pixie's synergistic benefits. That is where they can shine most. Pixie/Bard1/Wiz5/SC10 is one possible build for such a character. Apostle of Peace and Ur-Priest also can apply, but SC is more widely available to use in typical campaigns. |
| The_Shaman04-01-07, 07:15 AM | Unless it's houseruled, they can't meet the skill rank requirements of SC until lvl 10, though... Regardless of LA, a character can't have more ranks in a skill than his HD+3. |
| ninjarabbit04-01-07, 08:25 AM | Besdies rogue and a few specific builds pixies are almost unplayable pre-epic and by the time you reach epic those abilities aren't a big deal anymore. |
| runestar04-01-07, 09:45 AM | Then play pixie only for those few builds which they excel in. No one is forcing you to use sub-optimal builds. The assumption is that you will find a way of maximizing a pixie's strengths.:) |
| Jaxgaret04-01-07, 11:08 AM | Unless it's houseruled, they can't meet the skill rank requirements of SC until lvl 10, though... Regardless of LA, a character can't have more ranks in a skill than his HD+3. Oh, right. I forgot that it was a houserule. We give racial HD in place of LA in our games, and monsters-as-PCs are still generally underpowered. |
| The_Shaman04-01-07, 01:04 PM | So wait, the pixie player gets 4 fey HD instead of the "empty" levels? That is some sweet deal, at least compared to the RaW .4d6 HP may help quite a lot with the fragility issue. Edit: Hail to the pixie ninjas ;) However, since they're already invisible they could get haste instead of invisibility as a substitute. |
| Jaxgaret04-01-07, 01:19 PM | So wait, the pixie player gets 4 fey HD instead of the "empty" levels? That is some sweet deal, at least compared to the RaW .4d6 HP may help quite a lot with the fragility issue. Edit: Hail to the pixie ninjas ;) However, since they're already invisible they could get haste instead of invisibility as a substitute. 5 fey HD in total. No trading of that first HD for a class level, because there is more than one HD. It actually bumps up their starting ECL by 1, but they make for much less fragile characters. |
| The_Shaman04-01-07, 01:23 PM | Hmm, would a half-dragon pixie be an overkill then :D (HD makes racial HD draconic)? |
| Jaxgaret04-01-07, 01:49 PM | Hmm, would a half-dragon pixie be an overkill then :D (HD makes racial HD draconic)? Considering that the Half-Dragon's main benefit is +8 Str and natural weapons, and the Pixie is a non-combat character, I think it balances out. The character would be starting out with an ECL of 8 before any class levels. Also, the racial HD HP/level only increase by one size to d8, not to d12 like a True Dragon. |
| Miseriana04-02-07, 02:27 AM | Criticalstriker is my DM. I'm the one who wants to play a pixie. What ended up happening is this. No more Greater Invisibility DR and SR both reduced to base of 5 Polymorph taken away as a spell-like but the reason I wanted to play the race, was as a wizard, so I wanted to reduce the LA some more, so what do I do? Give up all spell-likes for a single point of LA. So now I have to find a spell somewhere that can reduce Fey, and I need to waste XP on permanency. I asked him if I could be tiny, because that would be cool, but he said that would make the LA4 again, because tiny creatures get "Insane bonuses to AC and Dex!!!!1!one!" Any opinions on this? Being a 9th level spellcaster in a land of 12th level spellcasters would suck, buy my only other companion in this campaign, the one I had before I remade, was an infected werewolf half-giant, so we have equal class levels. |
| The_Shaman04-02-07, 10:36 AM | I believe the others already pointed out that while a pixie gets some good stuff, it takes a long, long time for it to become a useful, productive party member. That's the standard, LA+4 pixie - hard to kill (except for a fireball etc accident), but simply not able to do much. And with the nerf that you describe, you will really have a big problem staying alive until then. A BIG problem. Your SR is completely useless against any full caster of your ECL (as 5+HD means that it will probably be around their caster level, hence they will always make the CL check), without invisibility you're without your major form of defense, and low HP and weakened DR don't spell anything good. Let's be frank, without invisibility the pixie has a big problem surviving anything its ECL. Perhaps it could be made into a spell-like 3xday instead. And as a wizard - and nearly any other class that doesn't grant precision damage, the LA will be a much bigger problem than even the good pixie abilities can offset. You're barely managing a fireball when the others are using acid fog, lightning storm and the like, and you're barely getting lvl 8 spells when others are touching epic. You're perhaps marginally harder to kill - yeah, congrats, only you can't do much to the baddies either. Mind you, that's eventually. At lvl 1-2, you can be offed by the odd area effect that gets by your SR (not an unlikely event). That's why a pixie is better as a cohort. As a PC, it's hard to actually "do" something, unless you're a support character like a rogue, bard, or maybe dragon shaman or the like. LA +4 involves: -4 HD -2 to -4 to attacks -1 to weak saves (fortitude and reflex in your case) -2 to strong saves (will) -4(x+int modifier) skill points, -4 to maximum skill ranks delayed class features. Frankly, I think anything more than LA+2 can be a serious problem to play with at least until you get 5-6 HD or so. The half-fey provides a relatively good way to get a lot of fey-related goodies over time (which apparently WotC believes is worth less than getting them up-front). Yes, it's a powerful LA +2, but at least it's something worth those 2 HD and everything they involve. |
| Miseriana04-02-07, 12:24 PM | You know, the only reason I actually wanted to play a pixie was because I could be a tiny spellcaster, but it is horribly nerfed for a spellcaster. Mainly I wanted to be so small because then I could ride around on the half-giant werewolf's head casting spells :D That would be tons of fun, but I can see now that it's not really happening with a pixie. So here's my question, is there any other race that I could take instead? Mainly I just want one with a really good bonus to int and a good flight speed, I'll take just about any other nerf. |
| The_Shaman04-02-07, 12:47 PM | Well... Half-fey is imo the best (if the DM agrees to it, which can be a problem, but its LA and not-so-stellar intelligence bonus make it a bit tricky for wizards unless the base race has a bonus to intelligence (but it may be worth it to try to find one without a penalty for constitution). If you're an elf or human, 3 levels of paragon will give you 2 levels of spellcasting as well as a +2 to int (any skill if you're a human). Also, a winged (Savage Species) version of a high-int race (i.e. sun elf or grey elf) could also work. I don't know how the raptorans were in terms of intelligence, sorry. However, the problem with wings is temporarily solved with alter self. Mind you, for a humanoid it might be a problem knowing of winged humanoids, so you might want to check that with the DM. As usual, elves are at an advantage - they have a chance of knowing about the avariel. Anyway, I don't know of a good tiny caster race. Pixies are small, btw - grigs are tiny, but they don't fly. |
| Miseriana04-02-07, 12:55 PM | Screw it all, I'm playing a rogue again, pixies can kiss my butt. |
| Jaxgaret04-02-07, 01:28 PM | Screw it all, I'm playing a rogue again, pixies can kiss my butt. Spoken like a true victim of DM-nerfitude :) |
| Miseriana04-02-07, 06:09 PM | Actually I decided to try something new. I'm playing a minotaur barbarian. We're level 12, so I have LA2, 6 levels of Monstrous Humanoid, and four levels of Barbarian. I also have 12th level starting gold! Whee magic! You got something to say about me? Say it to my keen greataxe that does 6d6+11 >: P Along with Cleave, Power Attack, and Combat Reflexes. I've still got a feat left and I might go for the one in the Savage Species book that gives me another 5ft of reach. |
| Bopple04-03-07, 08:52 AM | A Pixie makes a very good rogue or archer. It's one of the very few high LA races which are worth taking. But is it overpowered? No, except for a couple of specific levels. |
| starfire31104-03-07, 10:18 AM | Considering that the Half-Dragon's main benefit is +8 Str and natural weapons, and the Pixie is a non-combat character, I think it balances out. The character would be starting out with an ECL of 8 before any class levels. Also, the racial HD HP/level only increase by one size to d8, not to d12 like a True Dragon. We have a half dragon/pixie IMC, he is a swash 3/rogue 3 and is quite effective... if he got 8 dragon HD on top of that he be a monster, but the funny thing is he would have to wait a level to get the daring outlaw feat, that he already has. |
| BW022204-03-07, 10:49 AM | Folks, More LA races beyond 2 are extremely hard to play as player character. A 1st-level pixie sorceror would have say 5hp. In an APL 5 party, they would typically be facing ogres, several bugbears, a 5th-level NPC, etc. Now in many combats at those APLs, the pixie will walk (or fly) through the fight without being touched. Stay invisible, fly out of range, SR, and DR, etc. Although typically she couldn't do much damage to speak of. However, given enough encounters someone will either get smart or lucky. A lucky crit from an arrow (say 15 hp of damage) a good hit from an ogre (say 20hp of damage), a fireball which beats the SR (say 22hp before the save), a glitter dust, faerie fire, long term bad guys who figure out cold iron, etc. By 10th-level, the pixie would only be a 6th-level wizard (say 25hp). Considering that 5th-level spells could be tossed around, many folks now have easy methods to get around invisibility, and most opponents you are likely to face (frost giants, trolls, hell hounds, dire bears, etc.) can not do less than 15hp of damage per attack. And again, the 3rd-level spells at 6th-level, just aren't going to do much. Starting a pixie PC could play smart and could survive most combat. She would certainly be extremely useful in non-combat roles -- scouting, spying, etc. By 10th+ levels, I think the pixie would be in extreme danger. No matter how smart she played... the bad guys now have just too many resources at their disposal and the PC is so low on hit points. The LA of 4 is likely right. She will dominate in a lot of non-combat encounters. She will be of much less use in straight up fights. BTW. Rogue is not a great class on a LA +4 character. Even with continuous sneak attack that is only 1d3+1d6 points of damage at APL 5, and 1d3+3d6 points of damage at APL 10. IMO, I'd be looking at a support type character. Bard, druid, maybe a wizard or sorceror aiming towards illusions. |
| The_Shaman04-03-07, 07:57 PM | Actually I decided to try something new. I'm playing a minotaur barbarian. We're level 12, so I have LA2, 6 levels of Monstrous Humanoid, and four levels of Barbarian. I also have 12th level starting gold! Whee magic! You got something to say about me? Say it to my keen greataxe that does 6d6+11 >: P Along with Cleave, Power Attack, and Combat Reflexes. I've still got a feat left and I might go for the one in the Savage Species book that gives me another 5ft of reach. Consider going for half-dragon and the feat that gives you breath every 1d4 rounds (or the appropriate version of the Dragonborn) from Dragon magic. You may be a little fragile, but offensively you should be able to clean anything's clock. Oh, the flight and other extras may come in handy, too. Mind you, imo half-dragon centaur might be easier (and your flight speed is better). You skip on reach, but you still get some very sweet stuff. |
| runestar04-03-07, 09:52 PM | Pixie frenzied berserker...:cool: |
| Jaxgaret04-03-07, 11:23 PM | We have a half dragon/pixie IMC, he is a swash 3/rogue 3 and is quite effective... if he got 8 dragon HD on top of that he be a monster, but the funny thing is he would have to wait a level to get the daring outlaw feat, that he already has. That is an excellent build for a HD/Pixie. :) Still, even with my campaign variant, a 5RHD Pixie/Half-Dragon/Swash3/Rogue3 still is in no way overpowering a straight Cleric13 or Druid13 or Wizard13. So, I see no problem with it. |
| Bopple04-04-07, 07:41 AM | A rogue is a very good class for a pixie. Well, it's rather other classes are bad for a pixie. With Greater Invisibility, you can always sneak-attack at certain levels. While its BAB lags behind, it has very high Dex to make up for it. And many rogues can't stand with the physical punishment, after delivering their sneak-attacks. But pixies have Greater Invisibility and DR, and can make ranged sneak-attack. It increases the survivability. Pixie is far from good for spellcasters. No high-LA race can make a good spellcaster. |
| darrylhaines04-04-07, 07:57 AM | Considering that the Half-Dragon's main benefit is +8 Str and natural weapons, and the Pixie is a non-combat character, I think it balances out. The character would be starting out with an ECL of 8 before any class levels. Also, the racial HD HP/level only increase by one size to d8, not to d12 like a True Dragon. Wouldn't the ECL be 7 (4 for the pixie and 3 for the half dragon template)?. Or does it start out with 1 HD for 1+7=8. |
| BW022204-04-07, 10:56 AM | Bopple, A rogue is a very good class for a pixie. Well, it's rather other classes are bad for a pixie. With Greater Invisibility, you can always sneak-attack at certain levels. While its BAB lags behind, it has very high Dex to make up for it. And many rogues can't stand with the physical punishment, after delivering their sneak-attacks. But pixies have Greater Invisibility and DR, and can make ranged sneak-attack. Actually, in my experience... they don't make great rogues. Sneak Attack Sneak attack damage is really nothing to write home about being four levels back and having no strength to speak of. At APL 5, the pixie likely does 1d3+1d6-2. That is likely less damage than almost anyone in party and most CR 5 monsters would barely be affected. Might as well toss oil. At APL 10, the rogue would be doing 1d3+3d6-2. Again hardly effective against say frost giants. Even with sneak attack, you need to hit. At APL 10, you would have a +4 BAB and maybe +5 to dex. With invisibility, your chance of hitting is still a problem. This likely becomes worse because the pixie is most likely using ranged combat (to avoid melee) and likely runs into the firing into melee and possibly cover issues with her party members once folks close. At those APLs folks could easily be expected to buff their ACs. You won't get multiple attacks until something like 13th-level. Most melee types would be doing far more damage just due to the multiple attacks. Finally, you are completely useless against creatures immune to criticals. 1d3-2 against a wraith is pretty much a waste of time. Skill Points and Feats You are four levels (i.e. ranks) behind on your skills. The means that skill like open locks, disable device, and search are likely borderline for the APL. Most DMs would have little problem putting in a DC 25 magical trap in an APL 5 module. A 1st-level rogue with +6 or so on search is going to be setting off a lot of traps, unable to open a lot of locks, going to have tumble problems, etc. It also means you are less useful outside of combat than a plain rogue. Diplomacy, sense motive, use magical device, etc. And if you miss a trap, a single acid or burning oil trap would of course kill you outright if you failed the save (and possibly even if you didn't). Greater Invisibility While powerful, you are starting off a APL 5. At those levels (and certainly within a few levels) ways to avoid invisibility are fair ball. Scent, blind sense, glitterdust, invisibility purge, faerie fire, summoned creatures with such abilities, etc. By APL 10, the list of possibles is might large. When the invisibility fails, at best they have a 50% miss chance and worse, they can see you. You suddenly become extremely vulnerable. DR That is nice but... by APL 5, almost every creature can do more than 10hp per attack. With only say 6hp at APL 5, any creature or attack doing 16hp of damage drops you. At APL 10, you might have 25hp or so, but alot of creatures would easily do 35+hp of damage in one hit -- and usually have multiple attacks. By mid to higher levels, it is going to be useful in about half the combats. There are also some insanely easy ways around DR. Flasks of oil, flasks of acid, etc. SR Again nice, but at best it means something like a 50% or 60%immunity. During a single encounter against a spellcaster with AoE spells (easily possible at APL 5, let alone 10), chances are it will fail once. And based on your hit points, saving throws four levels back, and some not so great fort and will saves, given a dozen combats chances are you will be subjected to at least one magical attack where SR fails (or does not apply) and you will be killed outright. Honestly, imagine that at APL 5, you go up against a minor wizard who is away of your party. He has a scroll of glitterdust and magic missile in memory. First round, you are likely blinded and perfectly visible. Second round, you are likely down. You can argue that this is unfair, but a CR 3 caster is hardly earth shattering, nor is preparing with a simple scroll. At higher levels I'm just thinking of all the spells which have no SR and no save. At APL 7, you would have maybe 15hp and be subjected to an ice storm spell? The problem with high LA characters (anything beyond about 2) is that you are extremely powerful in some situation and extremely weak in others. In many encounters the pixie would be immortal. In an APL 5 bandit encounter, no one would see her, reach her, or damage her. She could fly around the bad guys tents alone and (given time) drop them all. They honestly have no hope. However, the flip side is that she would encounter combats where she has no hope of surviving. * An acid trap. Does 3d8 points of damage. Even with a save, she could be down and dead before the party even finds her. * A dire wolf. Flys into a cave, the wolf smells her, moves forward, gets within 5', makes the 50% miss chance, and the pixie has a 50% of being unconcious and likely eaten the next round. * A stinking cloud spell, a fire ball, or lightning bolt tossed down a hallway. * Twelve goblins coming into the camp while another PC is on guard duty. Each tosses a flask of oil at the PCs tents. Pixie happens to be in one and takes 2d6 points of damage. etc., etc. To be honest, it is hard for me as a DM to actually not put in APL 5 encounters which wouldn't kill a 6hp creature - even with invisibility, DR, and SR. |
| Bopple04-04-07, 12:40 PM | Actually, in my experience... they don't make great rogues. In my experience, they make great rogues, at certain levels. Specifically, great ranged-attack rogues. Sneak Attack Sneak attack damage is really nothing to write home about being four levels back and having no strength to speak of. At APL 5, the pixie likely does 1d3+1d6-2. That is likely less damage than almost anyone in party and most CR 5 monsters would barely be affected. Might as well toss oil. At APL 10, the rogue would be doing 1d3+3d6-2. Again hardly effective against say frost giants. That's countered by the fact that pixie has a higher chance to deliver sneak-attacks. And it's 1d4+1d6 with a shortbow. No player with decent intelligence makes a melee-based pixie rogue. Even with sneak attack, you need to hit. At APL 10, you would have a +4 BAB and maybe +5 to dex. With invisibility, your chance of hitting is still a problem. Huh? You get +8 Dex at the character creation. Considering the fact that almost every rogue has 16+ base Dex at the creation, a pixie rogue can have 24+ Dex at 1st lvl. At ECL 10, you get attacak bonus of +24 = 10(base) +4(BAB) +8(Dex modifier) +2(Invisibility), without any magic or item. And on top of that, your foe is denied to Dex bonus to AC. At ECL 10, that's a guarranteed hit. This likely becomes worse because the pixie is most likely using ranged combat (to avoid melee) and likely runs into the firing into melee and possibly cover issues with her party members once folks close. Have you ever seen any archer build without Precise Shot? At those APLs folks could easily be expected to buff their ACs. This is irrelevant. It can affect any combatant. You won't get multiple attacks until something like 13th-level. But then again, its probability to hit is by far higher than normal rogues, thus it does not make much difference. Most melee types would be doing far more damage just due to the multiple attacks. It's not unknown that melee-type rogues can dish out astonishing amount of damage. But then again, it's not unknown melee-type rogues die so fast after that. Finally, you are completely useless against creatures immune to criticals. 1d3-2 against a wraith is pretty much a waste of time. Irrelevant. This is not a weakness of pixies, but of rogues. Skill Points and Feats You are four levels (i.e. ranks) behind on your skills. The means that skill like open locks, disable device, and search are likely borderline for the APL. Most DMs would have little problem putting in a DC 25 magical trap in an APL 5 module. A 1st-level rogue with +6 or so on search is going to be setting off a lot of traps, unable to open a lot of locks, going to have tumble problems, etc. It also means you are less useful outside of combat than a plain rogue. Diplomacy, sense motive, use magical device, etc. Have you really played a pixie rogue? A pixie get +8 Dexterity, +6 Intelligence, +4 Wisdom, +6 Charisma. And bonus to Spot, Listen, Search. There is absolutely no problem with skills. Actually, it's better than rogues of other races, due to high stat scores, as far as skills concerned. And if you miss a trap, a single acid or burning oil trap would of course kill you outright if you failed the save (and possibly even if you didn't). Yeah, that's a hard thing for a low lvl pixie rogue. And that's why I said it's good for specific levels. Greater Invisibility While powerful, you are starting off a APL 5. At those levels (and certainly within a few levels) ways to avoid invisibility are fair ball. While I agree, the examples does not seem correct. Scent, blind sense, These do not negate Invisibility, especially when you are an invisible archer. glitterdust Yeah, this is the best spell to beat invisibility. But how many times a day you face a wizard? And everyone of them has it and can cast it right at you? Then there is something very wrong with the game. invisibility purge While it's handy, it certainly has its shortcomings. It only works for the area near the cleric. It's not really useful against an invisible archer. faerie fire It's a druid spell. It's not common. And the druid has to figure out where the pixie rogue is. But druid cannot cast See Invisibility. It's far from easy for a druid to pinpoint a moving invisible archer. And it's subject to SR. Do you really think that a druid would want to waste his precious round, hurling a Faerie Fire at a pixie rogue? summoned creatures with such abilities Which one? AFAIK, you have to be quite a high lvl caster to summon monsters which can see invisible. By APL 10, the list of possibles is might large. Well, how large? IME, at ECL 10, the list is quite small. When the invisibility fails, at best they have a 50% miss chance and worse, they can see you. You suddenly become extremely vulnerable. That chance is still very, very low. And a pixie can fly. DR That is nice but... by APL 5, almost every creature can do more than 10hp per attack. Really? Check the Monster Manual again. The avg. damage by CR 5 is about 10~12. With only say 6hp at APL 5 6? It's close to 8. any creature or attack doing 16hp of damage drops you. Well, if he can hit, at all. At APL 10, you might have 25hp or so Again, it's closer to 36. but alot of creatures would easily do 35+hp of damage in one hit -- and usually have multiple attacks. By mid to higher levels, it is going to be useful in about half the combats. Wow, don't you think you are exaggerating too much? At that rate, 10th lvl fighter(avg. hp 90) would go down in 1 round. There are also some insanely easy ways around DR. Flasks of oil, flasks of acid, etc. Considering the fact that the types that would use such items are non-casters, how are they going to throw them at a pixie rogue, especially when preparing a splash weapon is a full-round action and its range increment is 10'? SR Again nice, but at best it means something like a 50% or 60%immunity. During a single encounter against a spellcaster with AoE spells (easily possible at APL 5, let alone 10), chances are it will fail once. And based on your hit points, saving throws four levels back, and some not so great fort and will saves, given a dozen combats chances are you will be subjected to at least one magical attack where SR fails (or does not apply) and you will be killed outright. There are several things to consider; 1. Since a pixie rogue has very high Dex and probably has Improved Initiative(because many rogues do), he almost always go first in the combat. That means, he moves himself out of the party before the enemy wizard shoots his AoE spell. And as we all know that AoE spell is not effective after the first round, because it hurts your allies too. 2. A pixie rogue is not the primary spell target(and physical, either). As you have said, due to its lagged sneak-attack progression and resort to ranged-attack, it does not have nova effect like melee rogues(while it's more consistent). Thus it does not make the primary target to dispatch. And since it has high AC(and high touch AC), SR, DR, Fly, Invisibility, and Polymorph, it is very hard to hit him. While it can be lethal, still the chance is very low. Why would any caster with decent intelligence(well, almost all the casters have decent intelligence, AFAIK) try on a lower chance? Honestly, imagine that at APL 5, you go up against a minor wizard who is away of your party. He has a scroll of glitterdust and magic missile in memory. First round, you are likely blinded and perfectly visible. Second round, you are likely down. As I said above, the pixie rogue wouldn't be in the range of Glitterdust. You can argue that this is unfair, but a CR 3 caster is hardly earth shattering, nor is preparing with a simple scroll. At higher levels I'm just thinking of all the spells which have no SR and no save. At APL 7, you would have maybe 15hp and be subjected to an ice storm spell? At ECL 7, its HP is about 23. And Ice Storm is subject to SR. The problem with high LA characters (anything beyond about 2) is that you are extremely powerful in some situation and extremely weak in others. Again, that's why I said it's great at certain levels. * An acid trap. Does 3d8 points of damage. Even with a save, she could be down and dead before the party even finds her. Um... why would 1st lvl pixie rogue risk his life in a dungeon? He will wait till he gets Evasion. * A dire wolf. Flys into a cave, the wolf smells her, moves forward, gets within 5', makes the 50% miss chance, and the pixie has a 50% of being unconcious and likely eaten the next round. First, it requires a move action to smell it. It can never attack Hit-&-Running rogue. If it's windy, it gets worse. Second, a dire wolf need a natural 20 to hit a pixie rogue. Third, then 50% miss chance kicks in. Fourth, a dire wolf cannot fly. * A stinking cloud spell, a fire ball, or lightning bolt tossed down a hallway. As I said above, he wouldn't be there. And he has very high Reflex save and Evasion(and Improved Evasion at higher lvl). * Twelve goblins coming into the camp while another PC is on guard duty. Each tosses a flask of oil at the PCs tents. Pixie happens to be in one and takes 2d6 points of damage. Again, I don't deny it's very fragile at lower lvl, with an unlucky shot. To be honest, it is hard for me as a DM to actually not put in APL 5 encounters which wouldn't kill a 6hp creature - even with invisibility, DR, and SR. Again, that's why I said it's great at certain levels. But as we know, every rogue is very fragile, anyway. If we strictly play, no melee rogue can survive a marginally big fight. But a pixie rogue will be away as an archer and can heal himself through polymorph, at least, even before we take his DR, SR and Greater Invisibility into consideration. A pixie rogue is fragile. Yes, I agree. But would he die more often than other rogues? No, he'd not. |
| Jaxgaret04-04-07, 02:45 PM | Wouldn't the ECL be 7 (4 for the pixie and 3 for the half dragon template)?. Or does it start out with 1 HD for 1+7=8. It is a 5RHD Pixie, not a +4 LA Pixie. Please read the previous posts for further clarification. |
| starfire31104-04-07, 03:22 PM | FWI here is the half-dragon pixie rogue 4/swash 3 from my game(he is melee), I made a mistake he is 14th level not 13th 32 point buy Small Dragon Str 18(20) Dex 22(24) Con 16(18) Int 23(25) Wis 18 Cha 16 Inititative +8 AC 32 (Nat armor +5, Dex +7, Size +1, Def +2, Armor +5, Dodge +1x2) HP 54 (max at 1st and half +1 each level) Fort +11 Ref +15 Will +7 Special Attacks: Breath Weapon 1/day 6D8 DC 13, 60ft line of electricity Special Qualities: Immune to electriciy Fly 60ft(good) Greater Invisibility Spell-like abilities: 1/day(Lesser confusion, dancing lights, detect chaos, detect good, detect evil, detect law, detect thoughts, dispel magic, entangle, permanent image, polymorph(self)) DR 10/cold iron SR 22 Grace +1 Insightful strike Dodge Bonus +1 Trapfinding Sneak Attack +4D6 Evasion Trap sense +1 Uncanny Dodge Feats: Dodge(B), Weapon Finesse(B), multi attack, weapon focus(rapier), Daring Outlaw Gear of note +3 Rapier w/ Greater Truedeath crystal +2 Gloves of dex, +2 belt of strength, +2 amulet of health, +2 head band of intellect. +2 Ring of deflection +3 Cloak of resistance +1 Light fort, Nimble, Mithril, Chain shirt Assortment of wands, scrolls and potions Attack routine +3 rapier +17/+12 1D6+15+4D6(SA)+1D6(undead) and Claw +11 1D3+9+4D6(SA) and Bite +11 1D4+9+4D6(SA) this does not include bonuses for being invisble or the fact you will be attacking agains flat-footed AC most of the time. the player told me he plans to take swordsage for his next 2 levels and retrain Weapon focus rapier into EWP spiked chain,and multi attack into combat reflexes and take shadow blade at level 16, not counting magic items upgrades, but counting the +1 stat bump to int at 15th level he will have. AC 36 (Nat armor +5, Dex +7, Size +1, Def +2, Armor +5, Dodge +1x2, Wis +4) Attack routine with (assassin's stance) +3 Spiked Chain +17/+12 1D6+25+6D6(SA)+1D6(undead) and bite +9 1D4+10+1D6(SA) This will aslo give him 8 AoO while having greater invisbility with a reach weapon, yes the AB isnt good, but he will be invisible and against opponents that have a hard time seing invisible it will be huge, vs other opponents he will still be able to take adavantag of AoOs and flanking. Yes this is not a super optimized character, but given that his roll is scout/skill monkey, he still will be a solid contributitor in combat. |
| BW022204-04-07, 11:36 PM | Bopple, Sneak Attack ... That's countered by the fact that pixie has a higher chance to deliver sneak-attacks. And it's 1d4+1d6 with a shortbow. No player with decent intelligence makes a melee-based pixie rogue. Actually it is not countered by a higher chance of sneak attack. For damage I was assuming a dart or dagger, but with a shortbow damage is 1d4+1d6-2. That is 4hp of damage on average with sneak attack. A human with a shortbow does an average of 3.5 points of damage without sneak attack. Having a great chance of getting a sneak attack is meaningless if your total damage with the sneak attack is barely more than a normal character without it. <Even with sneak attack, you need to hit. ... Huh? You get +8 Dex at the character creation. Considering the fact that almost every rogue has 16+ base Dex at the creation, a pixie rogue can have 24+ Dex at 1st lvl. At ECL 10, you get attacak bonus of +24 = 10(base) +4(BAB) +8(Dex modifier) +2(Invisibility), without any magic or item. And on top of that, your foe is denied to Dex bonus to AC. At ECL 10, that's a guarranteed hit. Where do you get 10 BAB from? Sorry, at APL 10, you might get to +14 or so on your attacks (including invisibility). That is barely a 50% chance of hitting a good AC. At APL 10, AC 25-30 isn't unreasonable on buff'ed creatures. (Although you would likely negate their dex/dodge bonuses). Have you ever seen any archer build without Precise Shot? Yes, but that requires two feats, and you are already 4 levels behind your non-LA rogues in terms of gaining feats. You won't have that until APL 7 and it would require every feat you have. >Most melee types would be doing far more damage just due >to the multiple attacks. It's not unknown that melee-type rogues can dish out astonishing amount of damage. But then again, it's not unknown melee-type rogues die so fast after that. I wasn't talking about rogues. I was just saying that 1d4+1d6-2 is pointless when a fighter is doing 1d8+6 on each of two attacks. >Finally, you are completely useless against creatures immune >to criticals. 1d3-2 against a wraith is pretty much a waste of >time. Irrelevant. This is not a weakness of pixies, but of rogues. No. A normal rogue would be doing at least 1d6 point of damage with a bow or 1d8 points with a sword or mace. You would be doing 1-2hp of damage. A normal rogue can at least do normal damage. >And if you miss a trap, a single acid or burning oil trap would >of course kill you outright if you failed the save (and possibly >even if you didn't). Yeah, that's a hard thing for a low lvl pixie rogue. And that's why I said it's good for specific levels. And at higher levels the traps will do more damage and you'll still be in the same boat. At APL 5, you have 6hp and traps do say 3d6. At APL 10, you have 25hp, and traps do 10d6 damage. Same problem. It doesn't matter your level, your hit points will never catch up. >Scent, blind sense, These do not negate Invisibility, especially when you are an invisible archer. If you are in a dungeon, building, etc. you can't always fly 30' up. Most passages and rooms are 10' high. In a dungeon, creatures with scent are the bane of invisible creatures. >glitterdust Yeah, this is the best spell to beat invisibility. But how many times a day you face a wizard? And everyone of them has it and can cast it right at you? Then there is something very wrong with the game. Once is enough. Let's say you have 10 combats per level. By the time the pixie reaches APL 10, she will have faced 50 combats. I don't think it is hard to expect that in one of those (especially NPCs planning to face the PCs) the PCs will face someone with that spell. >invisibility purge While it's handy, it certainly has its shortcomings. It only works for the area near the cleric. It's not really useful against an invisible archer. Since the archer needs to be within 30' to get sneak attack... if the cleric moves in the wrong direction and the pixie becomes visible, all the other bad guys are likely to target her. >faerie fire It's a druid spell. It's not common. And the druid has to figure out where the pixie rogue is. But druid cannot cast See Invisibility. It's far from easy for a druid to pinpoint a moving invisible archer. And it's subject to SR. Do you really think that a druid would want to waste his precious round, hurling a Faerie Fire at a pixie rogue? Actually, the spell has an area. When the pixie attacks, you can see where the arrow just came from. Anyone can target something 30' away within 10'. All drow and several other creatures also get the spell. >summoned creatures with such abilities Which one? AFAIK, you have to be quite a high lvl caster to summon monsters which can see invisible. Almost every animal has scent. The dire bat has blindsight is available as a 2nd-level druid spell, or in it's friendish version as a 3rd-level cleric/wiz/sor spell. Summon swarm is a 2nd-level spell. etc., etc. A wizard or sorceror with a bat familiar could just have the bat say "Aim the fireball 30' out at about four o-clock." >By APL 10, the list of possibles is might large. Well, how large? IME, at ECL 10, the list is quite small. Off the top of my head -- most wards, symbol spells, anti-magic field, true seeing, locate creature, spells which provide scent or blindscene, etc. Plus mundane stuff like more AoO spells, summon an air elemental and have it whirl-wind 200' around the 30' area until it carries the pixie off. That chance is still very, very low. And a pixie can fly. It isn't that low. At higher APLs it is almost automatic that something will be able to detect you one way or another. Really? Check the Monster Manual again. The avg. damage by CR 5 is about 10~12. Lets see... large fire elemental (2 attacks for 2d6+2 + 2d6 fire damage) (CR5), dire wolf (1d8+10) (CR3), ogre (2d8+7) (CR3), troll (3 attacks, 2x1d6+6, 1d6+3, rend does 2d6+9) (CR5), ... humm... I'm getting CR3 monsters which easily average 10. any creature or attack doing 16hp of damage drops you. Well, if he can hit, at all. And maybe he'll only hit you one out of 50 attempts. Which means you'll be hit several times before you make it to 2nd-level. 10-12 combat encounters per level, 8-10 rounds per combat, etc. Odds are eventually you will be hit several times by an appropriate APL creature between levels. >but alot of creatures would easily do 35+hp of damage in one >hit -- and usually have multiple attacks. By mid to higher >levels, it is going to be useful in about half the combats. Wow, don't you think you are exaggerating too much? I think you need to start looking at what is CR10 monsters are like. * A 9 headed cyro-hydra. 27d6 if they all breath at you one round. * A cloud giant with power attack 3d6+23 (and still +13 to attacks) * A harm spell. 110hp if you fail your save, 55 if you save. At that rate, 10th lvl fighter(avg. hp 90) would go down in 1 round. I've seen it happen. Considering the fact that the types that would use such items are non-casters, how are they going to throw them at a pixie rogue, especially when preparing a splash weapon is a full-round action and its range increment is 10'? Gee... maybe the surprise you. Maybe you are asleep in your camp? Maybe you are coming down a 5' passage way with a certain and they see the curtain move. etc., etc. Yes... 95% of the time, you'll never find yourself in those positions. However, over the course of your adventuring career, that 5% will occur several times. There are several things to consider; 1. Since a pixie rogue has very high Dex and probably has Improved Initiative(because many rogues do), he almost always go first in the combat. That means, he moves himself out of the party before the enemy wizard shoots his AoE spell. And as we all know that AoE spell is not effective after the first round, because it hurts your allies too. You already gave him point-blank shot, and (at APL 7) percise shot. How many feats does this person get to start with? And even with another +4 you won't always go first, or be able to move up. You can be surprised, you may have to delay until someone opens a door, you might have to wait until your party lets loose with their AoO spells, even with +10 to your intiaitive - you might still not go first, etc. You might just happen to be in the wrong place when the caster is targetting some of your group. The entire room might not be 40' across. Some AoO spells have massive areas. And someone might happy "I ready an action to target a fireball, 10' past the point at which I see an arrow come out of the air with." It is so easy to be hit with an AoE spell when the cover half or more of a room. Invisible or not. As I said above, the pixie rogue wouldn't be in the range of Glitterdust. 130'? Nonsense. The fighter opens the door to the room. On the surprise round, the wizard aims the spell 15' behind the doorway. The four PCs behind the fighter are hit by the glitter dust. Unless you are telling me that your party always spaces itself with you 30' back of the party. LOL. Quote: * An acid trap. Does 3d8 points of damage. Even with a save, she could be down and dead before the party even finds her. Um... why would 1st lvl pixie rogue risk his life in a dungeon? He will wait till he gets Evasion. Ok. So you are never going to enter dungeons, buildings, caves, low forests, back allies, etc.? Then exactly how are you going to get the XP to gain levels? >* A dire wolf. ... First, it requires a move action to smell it. It can never attack Hit-&-Running rogue. No. MM p314 "Whenever the creature comes within 5 feet of the source, the creature pinpoints the source's location." A dire wolf (large) can virtually cover a 40'x40' room with a normal move such that he'll pass within 5' of every square. At which point, he knows where the creature is and can attack it. If it's windy, it gets worse. In a cave? Second, a dire wolf need a natural 20 to hit a pixie rogue. Nonsense. Base 10, +6 dex, +1 small, +2 leather and maybe a ring. Say AC 20. Direwolf has a 60% chance to hit. Not even assuming it surprised you. Third, then 50% miss chance kicks in. 50% * 60% = 30% chance that you are dead. If there were three rooms with dire wolves in that dungeon... Fourth, a dire wolf cannot fly. I said cave? Pixies can not fly through rock. Direwolves like caves. >* A stinking cloud spell, a fire ball, or lightning bolt tossed >down a hallway. As I said above, he wouldn't be there. And he has very high Reflex save and Evasion(and Improved Evasion at higher lvl). So you always stay 150' back of the group whenever a door is opened or away from the lead person? Nonsense. Unless you are bowing out of 75% of the adventures out there, you are going to find yourself in a building or dungeon. Door opens, they go first. If your SR and save fails... you die. No intiative, no going first, no getting out of the way. It is extremely easy for the defender to put themselves in a position to go always go first. A pixie rogue is fragile. Yes, I agree. But would he die more often than other rogues? No, he'd not. Actually he would. The pixie trades something which works in all cases, hit points, for things which work in most cases -- SR, DR, and invisibility. The problem is that at you know these will fail and we can predict when they won't work. |
| runestar04-04-07, 11:50 PM | The pixie trades something which works in all cases, hit points, for things which work in most cases -- SR, DR, and invisibility. The problem is that at you know these will fail and we can predict when they won't work. That is quite a sweeping statement. Sr may protect you from save or die spells. All the hp in the world won't...:P |
| Bopple04-05-07, 12:51 AM | For damage I was assuming a dart or dagger, but with a shortbow damage is 1d4+1d6-2. That is 4hp of damage on average with sneak attack. A human with a shortbow does an average of 3.5 points of damage without sneak attack. It's not better than human normal attack at 1st lvl. But then again, I never claimed a pixie rogue is good at 1st lvl. Having a great chance of getting a sneak attack is meaningless if your total damage with the sneak attack is barely more than a normal character without it. Again, I did not deny it is not good at lower lvl. Where do you get 10 BAB from? Sorry, at APL 10, you might get to +14 or so on your attacks (including invisibility). That is barely a 50% chance of hitting a good AC. At APL 10, AC 25-30 isn't unreasonable on buff'ed creatures. (Although you would likely negate their dex/dodge bonuses). Being fatigued at 4am, I was calculating wrong. Barely 50% chance? Where are you getting that from? CR10 monsters have Flatfoot AC of 20, on average. AC buffs? Sure, there can be. But those are relatively rare. And I haven't even taken common buffs like Greater Magic Weapon or Haste into consideration, yet. Most of all, defensive buffs affect any rogue, not pixie rogue alone. 50%? Let's see what a 6th lvl rogue can do. 18 = +4(BAB) +8(Dex) +1(Size) +2(Invisible) +2(Gr. Magic Weapon) +1(Point Blank Shot) If you use the most common buffs - Haste and Bless, it's 20. Yes, but that requires two feats, and you are already 4 levels behind your non-LA rogues in terms of gaining feats. You won't have that until APL 7 and it would require every feat you have. Again, I have never claimed it's good at 1st lvl. I wasn't talking about rogues. I was just saying that 1d4+1d6-2 is pointless when a fighter is doing 1d8+6 on each of two attacks. Irrelevant. Since when have we been comparing a rogue to a fighter? No. A normal rogue would be doing at least 1d6 point of damage with a bow or 1d8 points with a sword or mace. You would be doing 1-2hp of damage. A normal rogue can at least do normal damage. Again, that's about 1st lvl. And at higher levels the traps will do more damage and you'll still be in the same boat. At APL 5, you have 6hp and traps do say 3d6. At APL 10, you have 25hp, and traps do 10d6 damage. Same problem. It doesn't matter your level, your hit points will never catch up. Again, it's 8HP and 36HP(actually, it's more closer to 37, but), respectively. Moreover, DC of CR 10 mechanical traps which deal HP damage is low(around 20/20). It's magical traps(like Wail of Banshee or Prismatic Spray)which have much higher DC to find/disable and resist(around 30/20). But an ordinary rogue does not have SR to resist it, when he triggered it. If you are in a dungeon, building, etc. you can't always fly 30' up. Most passages and rooms are 10' high. In a dungeon, creatures with scent are the bane of invisible creatures. Most? That's far from true. As for scent, no, see below. Once is enough. Let's say you have 10 combats per level. By the time the pixie reaches APL 10, she will have faced 50 combats. I don't think it is hard to expect that in one of those (especially NPCs planning to face the PCs) the PCs will face someone with that spell. So what? Your invisibility is gone. And your sneak-attack is gone. Yes, you can't do anything for the fight. But then again, none wastes his precious combat round on a puny rogue who cannot sneak-attack. And most of all, a pixie can try to dispel it. Since the archer needs to be within 30' to get sneak attack... if the cleric moves in the wrong direction and the pixie becomes visible, all the other bad guys are likely to target her. 1. The cleric goes into the specific direction. 2. And the rogue stays near the cleric with Invisibility Purge. 3. And all the others are behind the cleric's turn and want to target a rogue who cannot sneak-attack. That's a lot of assumptions. It's obvious that weird things happen a lot, in your game. Actually, the spell has an area. When the pixie attacks, you can see where the arrow just came from. Anyone can target something 30' away within 10'. All drow and several other creatures also get the spell. Aha. I agree it's more effective than other measures. But it still needs to beat SR. He cannot deliver his sneak-attack. And the foes just ignore a rogue who cannot sneak-attack. How is he going to die? Perhaps from boredom, with nothing happening? :P And again, a pixie can try to dispel it. Almost every animal has scent. Scent does nothing, see below. The dire bat A dire bat. What a common monster. And I am quite at a loss trying to figure out how you are going to hit it with +5 attack bonus. blindsight is available as a 2nd-level druid spell, or in it's friendish version as a 3rd-level cleric/wiz/sor spell. Summon swarm is a 2nd-level spell. etc., etc. A wizard or sorceror with a bat familiar could just have the bat say "Aim the fireball 30' out at about four o-clock." Burn a precious round just to cast blindsight? There are much more useful spell to do in a combat. Most of all, being short-ranged(30'), Blindsight is a bad method to pursue the invisible sneak-attacker, though it's good to nullify sneak-attacks. And extremely few wizards actually use their familiars in the combat, for they die too easily. Off the top of my head -- most wards, symbol spells, anti-magic field, true seeing, locate creature, spells which provide scent or blindscene, etc. Plus mundane stuff like more AoO spells, summon an air elemental and have it whirl-wind 200' around the 30' area until it carries the pixie off. It isn't that low. At higher APLs it is almost automatic that something will be able to detect you one way or another. Yeah, but it consumes your precious resources and combat rounds. And you are doing it again. Everything targets the pixie rogue first? That's not at all true. Lets see... large fire elemental (2 attacks for 2d6+2 + 2d6 fire damage) (CR5), dire wolf (1d8+10) (CR3), ogre (2d8+7) (CR3), troll (3 attacks, 2x1d6+6, 1d6+3, rend does 2d6+9) (CR5), ... humm... I'm getting CR3 monsters which easily average 10. Those are among the well-known PC killers of lower lvl. Does it prove anything? Again, I have never said a pixie rogue is good at 1st lvl. And which one of them can fly or see invisible? I don't see any. And maybe he'll only hit you one out of 50 attempts. Which means you'll be hit several times before you make it to 2nd-level. 10-12 combat encounters per level, 8-10 rounds per combat, etc. Odds are eventually you will be hit several times by an appropriate APL creature between levels. Again, I have never said it's good at first lvl. I think you need to start looking at what is CR10 monsters are like. * A 9 headed cyro-hydra. 27d6 if they all breath at you one round. * A cloud giant with power attack 3d6+23 (and still +13 to attacks) * A harm spell. 110hp if you fail your save, 55 if you save. Of course there are a few of certain monsters who can dish out large amount of damage. But do these mean anything, when the fighter went down first(and any rogue cannot survive, either)? And you know what? Neither hydra nor cloud giant can fly. A cleric at that level rarely can, either. It's actually one of the good examples that a pixie rogue's survivability is better than that of an ordinary rogue. I've seen it happen. No, I meant does it happen that often. Gee... maybe the surprise you. Maybe you are asleep in your camp? Maybe you are coming down a 5' passage way with a certain and they see the curtain move. etc., etc. Yes... 95% of the time, you'll never find yourself in those positions. However, over the course of your adventuring career, that 5% will occur several times. Yeah, but then again, the whole survivability is better than that of an ordinary rogue. You can be surprised, you may have to delay until someone opens a door, you might have to wait until your party lets loose with their AoO spells, even with +10 to your intiaitive - you might still not go first, etc. No, any player with decent intelligence who plays a low HP character knows better than to wait. And an archer does not have to wait for the party wizard to shoot his AoE spell. You might just happen to be in the wrong place when the caster is targetting some of your group. The entire room might not be 40' across. Some AoO spells have massive areas. And someone might happy "I ready an action to target a fireball, 10' past the point at which I see an arrow come out of the air with." It is so easy to be hit with an AoE spell when the cover half or more of a room. Invisible or not. Yeah. That happens. But that happens rarely. And after that, a pixie rogue has Evasion, SR and high Reflex save. If you combine the all the probabilities, his survivability is much better than that of his human collegues. 130'? Nonsense. The fighter opens the door to the room. On the surprise round, the wizard aims the spell 15' behind the doorway. Firstly, I am not sure how are you going to measure the range? Are there some sorts of cheap CCTV-type magic items which do not require an action, that I don't know of? Anyway, that might work, if only the door is at the end of the corridor. But most rooms and corridors go side-by-side. Don't they? The four PCs behind the fighter are hit by the glitter dust. Unless you are telling me that your party always spaces itself with you 30' back of the party. LOL. Glitterdust has radius of 10'. And it's not unknown many rogues go first to find traps and to scout. Ok. So you are never going to enter dungeons, buildings, caves, low forests, back allies, etc.? Then exactly how are you going to get the XP to gain levels? Again, are you suggesting every room in every environment has room smaller than 10' by 10'? I am not sure if there is any large or larger monster, in your game. No. MM p314 "Whenever the creature comes within 5 feet of the source, the creature pinpoints the source's location." A dire wolf (large) can virtually cover a 40'x40' room with a normal move such that he'll pass within 5' of every square. At which point, he knows where the creature is and can attack it. I am not sure what you are talking about. It has to use its move action to smell. It has 1 standard action left for the round. It uses it to move toward the pixie rogue. Its turn ends. The pixie moves away and attack. Then on the next round, the wolf has to smell it and do them all over again. How are you going to hit? In a cave? Of course there can be wind in cave, if you are near to an opening or a crevasse. Nonsense. Base 10, +6 dex, +1 small, +2 leather and maybe a ring. Say AC 20. Direwolf has a 60% chance to hit. Not even assuming it surprised you. Maybe I was exaggerating. But 20? You are, too. 27 = 10(Base) +7(Dex) +1(Size) +5(Mithral Chain with Magic Vestment) +1(Buckler) +1(Natural) +1(Dodge) +1(any magic item) You need at least 16 to hit him. It's 25% chance. I have not even included Polymorph yet. And how are you going to surprise a pixie rogue with Greater Invisibility with great Listen and Spot checks? 50% * 60% = 30% chance that you are dead. 50%*25% = 12.5% chance. Whoa. And you still haven't show me how you are going to defeat Hit-&-Run. If there were three rooms with dire wolves in that dungeon... Umm... so what? :P I said cave? Pixies can not fly through rock. Direwolves like caves. If there is any room which is bigger than 10' by 10', then he can fly. Or are you claiming every cave has only small rooms? There seems something terribly wrong with your game. So you always stay 150' back of the group whenever a door is opened or away from the lead person? Nonsense. Unless you are bowing out of 75% of the adventures out there, you are going to find yourself in a building or dungeon. 150' back? How about 10' above and 10~20' back/front/left/right/diagonal? Door opens, they go first. If your SR and save fails... you die. No intiative, no going first, no getting out of the way. It is extremely easy for the defender to put themselves in a position to go always go first. 1. How are they going to go first? You can do only 1 action on your Surprise round. You open, move and cast your spell all-in-one? Extremely easy? Maybe possible once in a while if you make a surprise-attack-oriented mad wizard who loves to be a fodder on the front line, if the door is on the dead-end of the corridor, and if he has some cheating methods to measure the exact range from behind the door. 2. At lower lvl, yes he might die by 1 unlucky hit. But that does not make any statistical difference from the ordinary rogues, because the ordinary rogues get hit much more often. Actually he would. No, he wouldn't. The pixie trades something which works in all cases, hit points, for things which work in most cases -- SR, DR, and invisibility. The problem is that at you know these will fail and we can predict when they won't work. Ultimately, it's the matter of the probability. While ordinary rogues have more HP, they are also more likely to get hit. Pixie rogues have less HP, but they are less likely to get hit. A pixie rogue might go down quickly, on an unlucky hit. But an ordinary rogue risks going down, on every marginally tough battle. And HP is not the everything for the defense. HP cannot defend you from condition-altering or save-or-die effects. But SR can. And you know what? a pixie rogue has the advantage of -1 Fort, +2 Ref, +1 Will, compared to an ordinary rogue, despite the level loss. Yes, at certain levels, they are too fragile. But I have never claimed they are great all through the levels, in the first place. |
| starfire31104-05-07, 08:58 AM | just a few comments Actually it is not countered by a higher chance of sneak attack. For damage I was assuming a dart or dagger, but with a shortbow damage is 1d4+1d6-2. That is 4hp of damage on average with sneak attack. A human with a shortbow does an average of 3.5 points of damage without sneak attack. 1st where is this 1d4+1d6-2 coming from? is this pixie using a mighty(-2) short bow? Where do you get 10 BAB from? Sorry, at APL 10, you might get to +14 or so on your attacks (including invisibility). That is barely a 50% chance of hitting a good AC. At APL 10, AC 25-30 isn't unreasonable on buff'ed creatures. (Although you would likely negate their dex/dodge bonuses). APL 10 level 6 rogue pixie, dex of 24 has AB (+1 size, +7 dex,+4 BAB) this gives a +12 AB before counting any bonuses due to magic weapon, feats, and other enhancers like gloves of dex, or bracers of archery, or the fact that you get a bonus for ebing invisble and the target will likely be denied dex. Actually he would. The pixie trades something which works in all cases, hit points, for things which work in most cases -- SR, DR, and invisibility. The problem is that at you know these will fail and we can predict when they won't work. and then this little bit... the pixies abilities will make him more durable than a regular rogue in situations that they apply, this will make the pixie much more likly to surive in those cases, then in the small number of times where the pixies abilities do not apply he will be more likly to die than the rogue, over the long run I think this will even out, for example after 50 encounters, the human rogue has had 35-40 real chances to die and the pixie rogue may have only had 5-10 real chances to die. |
| The_Shaman04-05-07, 10:21 AM | 1st where is this 1d4+1d6-2 coming from? is this pixie using a mighty(-2) short bow? IIRC, strength penalties are automatically included when you shoot with a bow. Somewhat unfair, perhaps, but you can realize that not being able to pull the string well would impact the damage. Strength Bonus When you hit with a melee or thrown weapon, including a sling, add your Strength modifier to the damage result. A Strength penalty, but not a bonus, applies on attacks made with a bow that is not a composite bow. " I wonder if pixies can make special bolts instead of arrows, though... pixie rogues with Xbow sniper could be mean. Sneak attacks from 60 feet, and with 1/2 dex modifier to damage? Yes, please. Very, very yes. |
| feraltibbit04-05-07, 10:27 AM | The pixie from the MM has +4 LA. He receives -4str, +8 dex, +6 int, +4 wis, +6 cha and is small sized. They get greater invisibility permanently, Dr 10 and spell resistance 15 + class levels. Doesn't all that warrant more then a LA 4? Actually, include the their little 1d6 HD, and their "pixie sleep arrows" (regardless of SA, ALL enemies must succeed the DC15 or go to sleep), making it a LA5 in the Savage Species. So, actually, for this race, yes. |
| starfire31104-05-07, 10:30 AM | IIRC, strength penalties are automatically included when you shoot with a bow. Somewhat unfair, perhaps, but you can realize that not being able to pull the string well would impact the damage. doh, I was caught, I just realized my mistake and was gonna come back here to correct it, meh too late now I wonder if pixies can make special bolts instead of arrows, though... pixie rogues with Xbow sniper could be mean. Sneak attacks from 60 feet, and with 1/2 dex modifier to damage? Yes, please. Very, very yes. this could be a very cool build. |
| The_Shaman04-05-07, 10:44 AM | All hail the mighty pixie commandos! |
| mathiu04-05-07, 10:57 AM | A pixie would make a deadly wizard, not to mention a cleric or druid. The pixie from the MM has +4 LA. Okay, you're down 4 caster levels. That's annoying yes. Let's take a look at the bonuses here: -4str (-2 on touch attacks, balanced slightly by +1 size bonus) +8 dex (+4 on reflex saves, touch AC, AC, and ranged touch attacks) +6 int (the extra skill points will also slightly offset the lack of them from earlier levels. If wizard more spells per level and significantly higher DCs as your 1st level spells are harder to stop than your 3rd level spells would be had you been a base race) +4 wis (Same as above if cleric or druid. That +2 on will saves never hurt anyone either) +6 cha (Helps deal with face skills as well as helps sorcerors out in the same way as int for wizards. Improves turning. Not quite as useful as the int or dex) Is small sized. (all the joyous small size bonuses) They fly and get greater invisibility permanently. (Let's play find the flying greater invisible caster. Trust me, this isn't a game you want to mess around with. Did we mention flat-footed touch and ranged touch attacks? Yeah.) Dr 10 (This can eventually be more useful than hitpoints to a wizard. I like to think of it as 2 levels of wizard hp per physical hit). Spell resistance 15 + class levels (Well, the dr covered physical damage and this covers spells above and beyond the glorious save and touch AC bonuses). Doesn't all that warrant more then a LA 4? It's a hard call. At 1st level the pixie will be twiggy, but also almost impossible to find for CR 5 challenges. The constant flight and greater invis alone makes it likely to beat them if just for the fact that it can plink them to death with a small crossbow without ever being able to be hit after its spells run out. However, bump that up to level 3 for 2nd level spells and things start to become a lot more powerful as it now has some caster levels to work with. Once you get into save or die or save or lose territory, that DC boost really makes its mark and at that point it's become entirely worth it. |
| Fallenangel35904-05-07, 02:03 PM | ECL 6... corrupted bonecreature pixie half clay golem with 1 level of swordsage, 1 level of scout, 1 of shadowdancer, and 13 levels of rogue, with the feat that lets you stack rogue and scout levels for skirmish damage Get max tumble, and get the flames blessing stance for fire DR In the first epic level, this character becomes fire immune +6 str,+8 dex, - con, +0 int, +6 wisdom, +0 cha +13 natural armor dr 10/coldiron and silver slash and pierce immunity magic immunity acid immunity cold immunity fire resistance 20 fasthealing 1 free weapon finesse beserk mode shadow hide in plain sight 7d6 sneak attack, 4d6 skirmish, and 4 ac bonus Get spring attack, and bounding blitz... due to the shadow hide in plain sight, and invisibility, thats 22d6 + 2x str+2x claw damage+14 vile damage per round damage can only be healed by 6th level or higher spell 7 vile damage on touch with 2 claw attacks (use beastclaws if you can afford them, 8500gp a piece, and then can be upgraded) all spell like ability DCs are boosted by 4 Thats why you shouldn't allow 3.0 books :-P |