Playable and Ridable Dragons for Medium creatures- PEACH [Archive] - Wizards Community

Playable and Ridable Dragons for Medium creatures- PEACH [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Novem
08-29-07, 11:20 AM I started this as an effort to create a Dragon that was playable. I also wanted a Dragon a Medium creature could ride sometime before epic (as in, levels 5 or 6).

I have the Draconomicon, but while it is a truly blessed book, it did not provide the Dragon I wanted. So, here is my homebrew creation. I have no idea whatsoever as to it's balance, so feel free to criticize. In particular, I would like feedback pertaining to level adjustment.

Mancrafted Dragons
Sometimes called Mair's Dragons, these Dragons were bred by the Sorcerer Mair to serve as mounts and allies. Eventually, Mair was overthrown by his servants, and they left to the wild. Since that time, the population has skyrocketed, which is matter of pressing concern to other Dragons- while Mair's creations have comparatively weaker innate abilities, they are nearly as flexible as the Humanoids, and they have adapted to changing times much more effectively than their larger cousins- indeed, some believe that they represent the future of Dragonkind.
Their alignments vary as much as those of the humanoids whom they were originally created to serve. Unlike many other Dragons, tool use (even mundane tools!) is natural for these creatures. (And, among Mair's many changes, his Dragons have opposable thumbs, which stick backwards like a birds' toe when walking. A prehensile tail adds to this.)

Mair's Dragons as Player Characters:
Dragon Type: as Dragons, Mancrafted Dragons are not subject to spells that target only Humanoids, such as Enlarge Person. Unlike other Dragons, they only have a save bonus (+4) against magic sleep or paralysis. Also, spells or effects that target only Humanoids and have a save can affect the Dragon (due to it's connection with Humans), but the Dragon has a +4 bonus on the save.
-4 Wisdom.
Medium size: As Medium creatures, Mancrafted Dragons gain no bonuses or penalties based on size. Mancrafted Dragons increase in size at certain racial levels naturally. When a Mancrafted Dragon increases it's size, it gains bonuses different from those gained when advancing size categories normally. (See below)
Base land speed 20, Fly Speed 40. (Average maneuverability). Mancrafted Dragons are slightly sluggish and ungainly on the ground, but are capable in flight. The Speed and maneuverability of Mancrafted Dragons will change as it gains Dragon HD.
Natural Attacks: 2 Claw attacks, which deal 1d2 damage each, and a Bite attack (secondary attack), which deals 1d4 damage
Natural Armor: +1.
Spell Like Abilities: At Will, Mage Hand. CL 1. This ability can lift up to a light load for the dragon, rather than the normal 5 pound limit (to a maximum of 100 lbs), and the levitated objects cannot move more than 5ft from the Dragon. This must still be a single object or container, and the Dragon must concentrate on the object used.
Difficult Diplomacy: Due to their strangeness and Draconic nature, Mancrafted Dragons are oft shunned by Human and Dragon alike, and Mancrafted Dragons take a -2 penalty to all Diplomacy, Bluff, and Gather Information checks.
Racial Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Auran, Ignan, Elvish, Dwarven
Favored Class: None. Mancrafted Dragons are poor at multiclassing indeed, and no class levels are ignored for multiclassing penalties.
Level Adjustment: +1

Special: Many Mancrafted Dragons choose to advance at least partially in Dragon Hit Dice. They gain additional racial abilities based on Dragon HD. Advancing in HD, as always, incurs no experience penalty. When advancing by Dragon HD, add Craft to the Dragon's list of Class Skills.

Advancing Mancrafted Dragons by their racial Hit Dice

As a race, Mancrafted Dragons gain bonus abilities for each racial hit die they take.

Breath Weapon (Su): After gaining 3 Dragon HD, Mancrafted Dragons gain a Breath weapon, a Cone of Fire 30 feet long. Save DC's are 10 + Dragons Constitution modifier + ½ the Dragon HD above 3. A successful Reflex save halves damage. Unlike most Dragons, Mair's creations do not have immunity to their breath weapon type.
3-4 HD: 1d6
5-6 HD: 1d8
7-8 HD: 2d4
9-10 HD: 1d10
11-12 HD: 1d12
13-14 HD: 2d6+
15-16 HD: 3d4
17-18 HD: 3d6
19-20 HD: 4d6
21+: +1d6/5

Natural Armor: Every 4 Dragon HD starting at 4, a Mancrafted Dragon gains +1 to it's Natural Armor.
Flight: A Mancrafted Dragon's speed increases by 10 for each 2 Dragon HD
Size increase: A Mancrafted Dragons' size increases to Large at 6 HD (Large is the largest size this dragon can advance to by HD). They gain all bonuses and penalties of Large size, execpt as follows:
Natural reach remains 5 feet,
No bonus to Strength, Constitution increase is only +2
Rustmonster
08-29-07, 01:16 PM There are a number of dragons playable at below epic. For example, black dragon wyrmling. Check in the MM. A bunch of dragons have LA that makes them lower than epic.
Novem
08-29-07, 03:32 PM There are a number of dragons playable at below epic. For example, black dragon wyrmling. Check in the MM. A bunch of dragons have LA that makes them lower than epic.

And none are Large or can serve as mounts and cohorts for a medium creature, nor can they be played, as I said at low levels. I.E. level 6, when a fighter looking into it will just have taken his first level of Dragonrider.
What do you think of this Dragon?
Overpowered? Underpowered? PEACH.
Amaril
08-29-07, 03:50 PM Dragon Magazine had two articles on PC dragons as class levels.
Novem
08-29-07, 04:22 PM Dragon Magazine had two articles on PC dragons as class levels.

Thank you for telling me that. What do you think of this one? What LA would you give it, if any?
Amaril
08-29-07, 04:24 PM Thank you for telling me that. What do you think of this one? What LA would you give it, if any?
I'm horrible at that, which is why I suggested the level1-20 dragon classes. :)
Novem
08-29-07, 04:34 PM I'm horrible at that, which is why I suggested the level1-20 dragon classes. :)

Me too. (which is why I posted It here). I now wish I had access to these articles. (My asking for LA advice was also a general hint to others who might comment.)
Amaril
08-29-07, 04:47 PM Me too. (which is why I posted It here). I now wish I had access to these articles. (My asking for LA advice was also a general hint to others who might comment.)You can purchase PDF copies of the magazines from Paizo's site. The articles are broken into seperate PDFs bundled together in a .ZIP file rather than one PDF for the whole magazine. Each magazine download is $4.99.

Metallic in Issue #320 (http://paizo.com/dragon/products/issues/2004/320)
Chromatic in Issue #332 (http://paizo.com/dragon/products/issues/2005/332)
Novem
08-29-07, 04:58 PM Thank you, though I'd still appreciate any other feedback on my creation.
Legdiwena
08-29-07, 06:27 PM You can play up to a juvenile dragon, IIRC highest level adjustment was +7 for pre-epic.
ToastedAmphibian
08-29-07, 08:10 PM Drop the stuff about weapon damage increase. Its unnecessary and rather odd. There damage will naturally increase every time they inrease in size.
Novem
08-29-07, 10:38 PM Thanks. Also, to others, I want a Large (Id Est Ridable) Dragon, not only Pre-epic, but low-level. This is my attempt- what do you think of the Balance?
I don't mean to offend anyone- indeed, this creation is a result of my inablility as a DM to run a high-level (10-20) game, and my inability to find Large dragons (other than the ridiculous Dragonnel) at ECL 6-10. I am quite aware of regular dragons and their LA, but they never reach large size in time for a Medium rider- such as the humans usually portrayed as riding one.
ToastedAmphibian
08-29-07, 11:55 PM You might want to reformat your idea to read more like the race description in the SRD. Your current posting reads alot like a class description, and that makes it fairly hard (Atleast for me) to think about clearly. Also, read up on the rules for size increases in teh SRD, as it dosnt really seem like you took thoes into account. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeincreases

As written, at lvl 16, your draggon would have +10 Nat Armor +20str -8 dex and +8 con. It deals 1d4 per clasw and 1d8 bite

In addition, it has a fly speed of 190ft with clumsy manuverability, which means, among other things, it has to go ATLEAST 95ft in a round or it falls from the sky, and it has to go 40ft in a circle to turn around. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm#Maneuverability

Also, as a PC race, dragon hitdice is THE BEST CLASS EVER
It has the HD and BAB of a barbarian, the saves of a monk (3 good) and 6+Int skill points per lvl on top of that. And 60ft darkvision and sleep imunity. Also, how many feet does it have? Quadrapead? Basically adds in teh dwarven sturdy racial ability to resesit being bullrushed/tripped. Oh, and if it is like a normal draggon, it would have *(When hugh at lvl 16) 10ft reach on its claw attacks and 15ft reach on its bite. A grapple modifier of 16BaB+10Str bonus (Assuming starting str of 10 at lvl 1)+8 size=24 Assuming yoru character had sense and maxed out str at first lvl,a dn put his 4 stat boosts into str, this would be 30, before any magic items or spells or even feats. At lvl 16, ECL 17. These seem like they would be hard to pull off at lvl17 for just about any other race/class combination. (Exspecially with zero gold worth of items)
Novem
08-30-07, 12:11 AM That's why the size increase bonuses have been changed- Balance. He gains the usual increase bonuses from Size, except the ability scores. Yes, I am aware of what the size increases normally would curtail.
I am also aware of the Dragon HD's awesomeness- Balancing it is a challenge, and therefore I am even more driven to make it so.
ToastedAmphibian
08-30-07, 06:12 PM Being a Large Creature with a fast fly speed and descent manuverability is probably about themost you could expect from an ECL 7 character. With teh continuing size increases and the recuring bonuses, stacked with teh HD and other dragon bonuses... I think its weaker than an average dragon of its size, but stronger than a player character of its level.

I think that beign large sized is generally a +1 LA in and of itself. Being large at low levels then continuing to get BIGGER as time progressess, well that might be a bit too much for a PC. Mabey make the size increases (After large) occur every 15 levels instead of 10? Then they will reach Hugh size at lvl 21 (ECL 22 if they dont buy off there LA, which they probably should/will.. However, considering how there racial abilites only get better as they level, you might want to expressly disallow this) Also, what are the class skills for your dragon lvls?

Seeign as they where basically MADE to be mounts, perhapes give them an INT penalty. After all, fairly stupid mounts are much easier to controll (from a diplomacy stand point) than super smart ones. (Much harder to keep people inline than horses, for example) That would help balance out the stupid high skill points. Also, why craft? I wouldnt imagine that their claws would really be well suited to fine manipulations, exspecially at later levels.
reaper5081
08-30-07, 06:48 PM Unlike most of the people on this thread, I beleive this is a rather good creation, especially for a mount, not so sure about as a pc though. I think this LA is appropriate.
Novem
08-30-07, 07:50 PM Thanks, reaper. I think I'll prevent the size increases after Large- for balance and thematic reasons, it makes sense. I'll also clear up the bonuses on size for it, and lower the immunity to sleep and paralysis to a save bonus vs. them. Also, it should be noted that this creature, unlike nearly all Dragons, is not immune to it's own Breath Weapon.
Dragons advancing by HD have class skills mentioned in the True Dragon entry of the MM.
Novem
08-30-07, 08:18 PM Oops. Double post.
Novem
09-01-07, 11:19 PM At what point, if any, should Psi-like or Spell-like abilities be added? (Or never).
If I increase the LA to +2, what should I add to avoid the common issues of being too strong for 1 LA but too weak for another.
Also, if the WotC overminds read this, please take into account that some people are looking for proper Dragon mounts for low levels, preferably ones that actually feel like Dragons and can be played.
BrutishCelt
09-02-07, 04:52 AM Well, if you have access to the Dragon Magic book, there's the Drakkensteed, which is basically a horse-sized dragon bred for riding.

You could also add the half-dragon template to a ride-able critter, but the level adjustment and increased intellect may prove to be a hassle.
ToastedAmphibian
09-04-07, 06:33 PM Hmm, your current design seems much more stream lined now. The large size cap, and teh speed increase every other lvl seem much more appropriate. All in all, it look playable now. Still might be a little iffy though as a +1LA but my oppinion on that is very slight. You might want to rework your post a little though, it looks like you updated the bottom, but teh top half contradicts it now.
Novem
09-04-07, 07:48 PM The Drakkensteed sounds interesting, but I'm saving for 4E.
If I added a "Humanoid Creation: Mair's Dragons are vulnerable to all attacks that specifically affect Humanoids, but not bonuses", would the LA be more appropriate?
ToastedAmphibian
09-04-07, 10:05 PM Will your dragon pcs be able to weild weapons? (Including mouth pick weapons)
ToastedAmphibian
09-04-07, 10:22 PM Listen, Search, Spot, Craft (any), Concentration, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Knowledge (any), Sense Motive, and Use Magic Device are the class skills for your dragon, yes? 6+Int per level?
How often can he use his breath weapon?
Why does your dragon treat its claws as its primairy attack when a true dragon treats its bite as a primary attack?
Novem
09-04-07, 11:20 PM Listen, Search, Spot, Craft (any), Concentration, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Knowledge (any), Sense Motive, and Use Magic Device are the class skills for your dragon, yes? 6+Int per level?
How often can he use his breath weapon?
Why does your dragon treat its claws as its primairy attack when a true dragon treats its bite as a primary attack?

1.) Correct.

2.) Like other Dragons, 1/1d4 rounds (barring additional rounds from Metabreath feats and the like)

3.) Good question, I hadn't noticed. I'll keep it this way, though, as the Claw attacks are weaker, so the more damaging Bite should be with a -5 penalty (if I read the rules correctly).

Yes, Mair's Dragons have opposable thumbs and can use all manner of tools and weapons, though he must pay increased price for Barding armor as normal.
Novem
09-04-07, 11:26 PM Oh, yes- would copying and reposting this in the Monster forum make sense?
ToastedAmphibian
09-05-07, 07:38 PM So, its kinda like a dwarven barbarian that trades stone cunning, dr, rage, and uncanny dodge for More skill points, (Weak) natural attacks, large size[Long right?], natural armor, and highspeed flying at will?

[dwarf= +4 saves vs spells, darkvision, sturdy build(your critter is a quadraped right?) and 20ft land speed]

Dosnt sound all that outlandish. Could be fun.

Kinda wish i could play it :}

Edit; Not sure if I agree with your reasoning on the bit though. Claws are so weak, and will soon become un ussable (Due to weilding weapons) that it seems odd to even give them natural attacks because they will raley be usefull. And i cant really picture your dragon. It seems like it would need really long arms to use tools properly which would really throw off its shape. Dont dragons tend to have short arms? Wouldnt your dragon have to sit down on 3 legs to manipulate items? (Like a dog sitting and shaking hands) It seems like it would be impossible to hold anything wiht two hands unless its sitting down or flying.
Novem
09-05-07, 11:14 PM I added a prehensile tail and Mage Hand at will, so it should be easier to imagine them as tool-users.

What do they look like? I am a big fan of "Western" Dragons- it would be in many ways the image of a smaller Silver Dragon, but with longer front limbs and more flesh in the gut.

Should I repost this, with changes, to the Monster forum?
ToastedAmphibian
09-05-07, 11:32 PM Hey wait... they cant use weapons unlees they are sitting or flying? If they are walking there "Thumb" goes backwards, preventing them from holding a weapon? How long is their tail? is it really skinny on the end? Can it reach infront of their head like a scorpion? Does it have reach?

It seems like a strange addition. Mage hand would be a more usefull addition but harder to explain from an RP perspective. Why would he want to breed a race of dragons that had Mage Hand at will? Wouldnt they just use that to escape?

Im really not trying to be difficult. If you just want this is a flying mount, id say ditch the tail and the thumbs, give it an INT of 2 and be off.
If you want it to be a PC race, these things seem like they are bound to come up during play.
Novem
09-06-07, 05:02 PM As Mair created Dragons with the idea of them being his servants, it's safe to say he was a tad crazy and probably not the brightest tool in the shed.

That said, Mair wanted them as mounts and servants. It would make sense that he would give them Mage Hand, so they could- well, serve. And after all, he would have wanted them to surmount those same obstacles. I am also lessening the weight limitation to aid use of the ability.
ToastedAmphibian
09-06-07, 05:48 PM This alows a 6th lvl character with 18 str to throw 300lb objects 40ft away as a move action at will. This deals 4d6 damage to all in teh area, i belive. This is equal to there breath weapon damage at lvl 20, takes only a move action instead of a standard action, and is usuable every round instead of evry 4 rounds. You've creatged a telekinetic rock throwing dragon. :}
Novem
09-06-07, 10:10 PM Fixed. Though that rock throw only has a range of 15 feet.
ToastedAmphibian
09-06-07, 11:50 PM Well, you still have teh problem of them being able to snatch things up while flying 25 ft in teh air, pull off other riders, move clouds ect. More importantly however, they could just push a 100 pound object across the ground in front of them while flying. I belive move actions are only requiered during flight to change direction and such, right? If your going to increase the str, why not decrease the range? Make it so that it only can effect things within 5ft of teh caster, and cant cause anything to move more than 5 feet in a round?
Novem
09-07-07, 04:58 PM You have to concentrate on Mage Hand. It's difficult to perform complex tasks whilst flying. But I shall adopt your 5ft houserule
ToastedAmphibian
09-07-07, 06:13 PM You have to concentrate on Mage Hand. It's difficult to perform complex tasks whilst flying. But I shall adopt your 5ft houserule

HEHE, ya i guess you could have them fail to notice the giant redwood infront of them if someone tries it :}
Novem
09-07-07, 07:05 PM HEHE, ya i guess you could have them fail to notice the giant redwood infront of them if someone tries it :}

That's my next encounter idea- thanks! (But seriously, that would be funny, though not as funny as the dragon flying into a castle or something similar. Of course, the new 5ft range fixes the problems for us.
ToastedAmphibian
09-07-07, 08:54 PM Sounds good and playable. Not sure what LA should be, if any, so good luck on that respect. One last thing though. You might want to switch common and draconic on teh language lists, both for fluff and mechanical reasons.They where created and raised by a wizard. Unless he spoke draconic fluently (Which is certaintly possible) he would want his servants to speak common. If he planned on selling them, then even more so. Even teh really stupid ones should know common.
Novem
09-07-07, 09:56 PM Fixed.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Novem 08-29-07, 11:20 AM	I started this as an effort to create a Dragon that was playable. I also wanted a Dragon a Medium creature could ride sometime before epic (as in, levels 5 or 6). I have the Draconomicon, but while it is a truly blessed book, it did not provide the Dragon I wanted. So, here is my homebrew creation. I have no idea whatsoever as to it's balance, so feel free to criticize. In particular, I would like feedback pertaining to level adjustment. Mancrafted Dragons Sometimes called Mair's Dragons, these Dragons were bred by the Sorcerer Mair to serve as mounts and allies. Eventually, Mair was overthrown by his servants, and they left to the wild. Since that time, the population has skyrocketed, which is matter of pressing concern to other Dragons- while Mair's creations have comparatively weaker innate abilities, they are nearly as flexible as the Humanoids, and they have adapted to changing times much more effectively than their larger cousins- indeed, some believe that they represent the future of Dragonkind. Their alignments vary as much as those of the humanoids whom they were originally created to serve. Unlike many other Dragons, tool use (even mundane tools!) is natural for these creatures. (And, among Mair's many changes, his Dragons have opposable thumbs, which stick backwards like a birds' toe when walking. A prehensile tail adds to this.) Mair's Dragons as Player Characters: Dragon Type: as Dragons, Mancrafted Dragons are not subject to spells that target only Humanoids, such as Enlarge Person. Unlike other Dragons, they only have a save bonus (+4) against magic sleep or paralysis. Also, spells or effects that target only Humanoids and have a save can affect the Dragon (due to it's connection with Humans), but the Dragon has a +4 bonus on the save. -4 Wisdom. Medium size: As Medium creatures, Mancrafted Dragons gain no bonuses or penalties based on size. Mancrafted Dragons increase in size at certain racial levels naturally. When a Mancrafted Dragon increases it's size, it gains bonuses different from those gained when advancing size categories normally. (See below) Base land speed 20, Fly Speed 40. (Average maneuverability). Mancrafted Dragons are slightly sluggish and ungainly on the ground, but are capable in flight. The Speed and maneuverability of Mancrafted Dragons will change as it gains Dragon HD. Natural Attacks: 2 Claw attacks, which deal 1d2 damage each, and a Bite attack (secondary attack), which deals 1d4 damage Natural Armor: +1. Spell Like Abilities: At Will, Mage Hand. CL 1. This ability can lift up to a light load for the dragon, rather than the normal 5 pound limit (to a maximum of 100 lbs), and the levitated objects cannot move more than 5ft from the Dragon. This must still be a single object or container, and the Dragon must concentrate on the object used. Difficult Diplomacy: Due to their strangeness and Draconic nature, Mancrafted Dragons are oft shunned by Human and Dragon alike, and Mancrafted Dragons take a -2 penalty to all Diplomacy, Bluff, and Gather Information checks. Racial Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Auran, Ignan, Elvish, Dwarven Favored Class: None. Mancrafted Dragons are poor at multiclassing indeed, and no class levels are ignored for multiclassing penalties. Level Adjustment: +1 Special: Many Mancrafted Dragons choose to advance at least partially in Dragon Hit Dice. They gain additional racial abilities based on Dragon HD. Advancing in HD, as always, incurs no experience penalty. When advancing by Dragon HD, add Craft to the Dragon's list of Class Skills. Advancing Mancrafted Dragons by their racial Hit Dice As a race, Mancrafted Dragons gain bonus abilities for each racial hit die they take. Breath Weapon (Su): After gaining 3 Dragon HD, Mancrafted Dragons gain a Breath weapon, a Cone of Fire 30 feet long. Save DC's are 10 + Dragons Constitution modifier + ½ the Dragon HD above 3. A successful Reflex save halves damage. Unlike most Dragons, Mair's creations do not have immunity to their breath weapon type. 3-4 HD: 1d6 5-6 HD: 1d8 7-8 HD: 2d4 9-10 HD: 1d10 11-12 HD: 1d12 13-14 HD: 2d6+ 15-16 HD: 3d4 17-18 HD: 3d6 19-20 HD: 4d6 21+: +1d6/5 Natural Armor: Every 4 Dragon HD starting at 4, a Mancrafted Dragon gains +1 to it's Natural Armor. Flight: A Mancrafted Dragon's speed increases by 10 for each 2 Dragon HD Size increase: A Mancrafted Dragons' size increases to Large at 6 HD (Large is the largest size this dragon can advance to by HD). They gain all bonuses and penalties of Large size, execpt as follows: Natural reach remains 5 feet, No bonus to Strength, Constitution increase is only +2
Rustmonster 08-29-07, 01:16 PM	There are a number of dragons playable at below epic. For example, black dragon wyrmling. Check in the MM. A bunch of dragons have LA that makes them lower than epic.
Novem 08-29-07, 03:32 PM	There are a number of dragons playable at below epic. For example, black dragon wyrmling. Check in the MM. A bunch of dragons have LA that makes them lower than epic. And none are Large or can serve as mounts and cohorts for a medium creature, nor can they be played, as I said at low levels. I.E. level 6, when a fighter looking into it will just have taken his first level of Dragonrider. What do you think of this Dragon? Overpowered? Underpowered? PEACH.
Amaril 08-29-07, 03:50 PM	Dragon Magazine had two articles on PC dragons as class levels.
Novem 08-29-07, 04:22 PM	Dragon Magazine had two articles on PC dragons as class levels. Thank you for telling me that. What do you think of this one? What LA would you give it, if any?
Amaril 08-29-07, 04:24 PM	Thank you for telling me that. What do you think of this one? What LA would you give it, if any? I'm horrible at that, which is why I suggested the level1-20 dragon classes. :)
Novem 08-29-07, 04:34 PM	I'm horrible at that, which is why I suggested the level1-20 dragon classes. :) Me too. (which is why I posted It here). I now wish I had access to these articles. (My asking for LA advice was also a general hint to others who might comment.)
Amaril 08-29-07, 04:47 PM	Me too. (which is why I posted It here). I now wish I had access to these articles. (My asking for LA advice was also a general hint to others who might comment.)You can purchase PDF copies of the magazines from Paizo's site. The articles are broken into seperate PDFs bundled together in a .ZIP file rather than one PDF for the whole magazine. Each magazine download is $4.99. Metallic in Issue #320 (http://paizo.com/dragon/products/issues/2004/320) Chromatic in Issue #332 (http://paizo.com/dragon/products/issues/2005/332)
Novem 08-29-07, 04:58 PM	Thank you, though I'd still appreciate any other feedback on my creation.
Legdiwena 08-29-07, 06:27 PM	You can play up to a juvenile dragon, IIRC highest level adjustment was +7 for pre-epic.
ToastedAmphibian 08-29-07, 08:10 PM	Drop the stuff about weapon damage increase. Its unnecessary and rather odd. There damage will naturally increase every time they inrease in size.
Novem 08-29-07, 10:38 PM	Thanks. Also, to others, I want a Large (Id Est Ridable) Dragon, not only Pre-epic, but low-level. This is my attempt- what do you think of the Balance? I don't mean to offend anyone- indeed, this creation is a result of my inablility as a DM to run a high-level (10-20) game, and my inability to find Large dragons (other than the ridiculous Dragonnel) at ECL 6-10. I am quite aware of regular dragons and their LA, but they never reach large size in time for a Medium rider- such as the humans usually portrayed as riding one.
ToastedAmphibian 08-29-07, 11:55 PM	You might want to reformat your idea to read more like the race description in the SRD. Your current posting reads alot like a class description, and that makes it fairly hard (Atleast for me) to think about clearly. Also, read up on the rules for size increases in teh SRD, as it dosnt really seem like you took thoes into account. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeincreases As written, at lvl 16, your draggon would have +10 Nat Armor +20str -8 dex and +8 con. It deals 1d4 per clasw and 1d8 bite In addition, it has a fly speed of 190ft with clumsy manuverability, which means, among other things, it has to go ATLEAST 95ft in a round or it falls from the sky, and it has to go 40ft in a circle to turn around. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm#Maneuverability Also, as a PC race, dragon hitdice is THE BEST CLASS EVER It has the HD and BAB of a barbarian, the saves of a monk (3 good) and 6+Int skill points per lvl on top of that. And 60ft darkvision and sleep imunity. Also, how many feet does it have? Quadrapead? Basically adds in teh dwarven sturdy racial ability to resesit being bullrushed/tripped. Oh, and if it is like a normal draggon, it would have *(When hugh at lvl 16) 10ft reach on its claw attacks and 15ft reach on its bite. A grapple modifier of 16BaB+10Str bonus (Assuming starting str of 10 at lvl 1)+8 size=24 Assuming yoru character had sense and maxed out str at first lvl,a dn put his 4 stat boosts into str, this would be 30, before any magic items or spells or even feats. At lvl 16, ECL 17. These seem like they would be hard to pull off at lvl17 for just about any other race/class combination. (Exspecially with zero gold worth of items)
Novem 08-30-07, 12:11 AM	That's why the size increase bonuses have been changed- Balance. He gains the usual increase bonuses from Size, except the ability scores. Yes, I am aware of what the size increases normally would curtail. I am also aware of the Dragon HD's awesomeness- Balancing it is a challenge, and therefore I am even more driven to make it so.
ToastedAmphibian 08-30-07, 06:12 PM	Being a Large Creature with a fast fly speed and descent manuverability is probably about themost you could expect from an ECL 7 character. With teh continuing size increases and the recuring bonuses, stacked with teh HD and other dragon bonuses... I think its weaker than an average dragon of its size, but stronger than a player character of its level. I think that beign large sized is generally a +1 LA in and of itself. Being large at low levels then continuing to get BIGGER as time progressess, well that might be a bit too much for a PC. Mabey make the size increases (After large) occur every 15 levels instead of 10? Then they will reach Hugh size at lvl 21 (ECL 22 if they dont buy off there LA, which they probably should/will.. However, considering how there racial abilites only get better as they level, you might want to expressly disallow this) Also, what are the class skills for your dragon lvls? Seeign as they where basically MADE to be mounts, perhapes give them an INT penalty. After all, fairly stupid mounts are much easier to controll (from a diplomacy stand point) than super smart ones. (Much harder to keep people inline than horses, for example) That would help balance out the stupid high skill points. Also, why craft? I wouldnt imagine that their claws would really be well suited to fine manipulations, exspecially at later levels.
reaper5081 08-30-07, 06:48 PM	Unlike most of the people on this thread, I beleive this is a rather good creation, especially for a mount, not so sure about as a pc though. I think this LA is appropriate.
Novem 08-30-07, 07:50 PM	Thanks, reaper. I think I'll prevent the size increases after Large- for balance and thematic reasons, it makes sense. I'll also clear up the bonuses on size for it, and lower the immunity to sleep and paralysis to a save bonus vs. them. Also, it should be noted that this creature, unlike nearly all Dragons, is not immune to it's own Breath Weapon. Dragons advancing by HD have class skills mentioned in the True Dragon entry of the MM.
Novem 08-30-07, 08:18 PM	Oops. Double post.
Novem 09-01-07, 11:19 PM	At what point, if any, should Psi-like or Spell-like abilities be added? (Or never). If I increase the LA to +2, what should I add to avoid the common issues of being too strong for 1 LA but too weak for another. Also, if the WotC overminds read this, please take into account that some people are looking for proper Dragon mounts for low levels, preferably ones that actually feel like Dragons and can be played.
BrutishCelt 09-02-07, 04:52 AM	Well, if you have access to the Dragon Magic book, there's the Drakkensteed, which is basically a horse-sized dragon bred for riding. You could also add the half-dragon template to a ride-able critter, but the level adjustment and increased intellect may prove to be a hassle.
ToastedAmphibian 09-04-07, 06:33 PM	Hmm, your current design seems much more stream lined now. The large size cap, and teh speed increase every other lvl seem much more appropriate. All in all, it look playable now. Still might be a little iffy though as a +1LA but my oppinion on that is very slight. You might want to rework your post a little though, it looks like you updated the bottom, but teh top half contradicts it now.
Novem 09-04-07, 07:48 PM	The Drakkensteed sounds interesting, but I'm saving for 4E. If I added a "Humanoid Creation: Mair's Dragons are vulnerable to all attacks that specifically affect Humanoids, but not bonuses", would the LA be more appropriate?
ToastedAmphibian 09-04-07, 10:05 PM	Will your dragon pcs be able to weild weapons? (Including mouth pick weapons)
ToastedAmphibian 09-04-07, 10:22 PM	Listen, Search, Spot, Craft (any), Concentration, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Knowledge (any), Sense Motive, and Use Magic Device are the class skills for your dragon, yes? 6+Int per level? How often can he use his breath weapon? Why does your dragon treat its claws as its primairy attack when a true dragon treats its bite as a primary attack?
Novem 09-04-07, 11:20 PM	Listen, Search, Spot, Craft (any), Concentration, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Knowledge (any), Sense Motive, and Use Magic Device are the class skills for your dragon, yes? 6+Int per level? How often can he use his breath weapon? Why does your dragon treat its claws as its primairy attack when a true dragon treats its bite as a primary attack? 1.) Correct. 2.) Like other Dragons, 1/1d4 rounds (barring additional rounds from Metabreath feats and the like) 3.) Good question, I hadn't noticed. I'll keep it this way, though, as the Claw attacks are weaker, so the more damaging Bite should be with a -5 penalty (if I read the rules correctly). Yes, Mair's Dragons have opposable thumbs and can use all manner of tools and weapons, though he must pay increased price for Barding armor as normal.
Novem 09-04-07, 11:26 PM	Oh, yes- would copying and reposting this in the Monster forum make sense?
ToastedAmphibian 09-05-07, 07:38 PM	So, its kinda like a dwarven barbarian that trades stone cunning, dr, rage, and uncanny dodge for More skill points, (Weak) natural attacks, large size[Long right?], natural armor, and highspeed flying at will? [dwarf= +4 saves vs spells, darkvision, sturdy build(your critter is a quadraped right?) and 20ft land speed] Dosnt sound all that outlandish. Could be fun. Kinda wish i could play it :} Edit; Not sure if I agree with your reasoning on the bit though. Claws are so weak, and will soon become un ussable (Due to weilding weapons) that it seems odd to even give them natural attacks because they will raley be usefull. And i cant really picture your dragon. It seems like it would need really long arms to use tools properly which would really throw off its shape. Dont dragons tend to have short arms? Wouldnt your dragon have to sit down on 3 legs to manipulate items? (Like a dog sitting and shaking hands) It seems like it would be impossible to hold anything wiht two hands unless its sitting down or flying.
Novem 09-05-07, 11:14 PM	I added a prehensile tail and Mage Hand at will, so it should be easier to imagine them as tool-users. What do they look like? I am a big fan of "Western" Dragons- it would be in many ways the image of a smaller Silver Dragon, but with longer front limbs and more flesh in the gut. Should I repost this, with changes, to the Monster forum?
ToastedAmphibian 09-05-07, 11:32 PM	Hey wait... they cant use weapons unlees they are sitting or flying? If they are walking there "Thumb" goes backwards, preventing them from holding a weapon? How long is their tail? is it really skinny on the end? Can it reach infront of their head like a scorpion? Does it have reach? It seems like a strange addition. Mage hand would be a more usefull addition but harder to explain from an RP perspective. Why would he want to breed a race of dragons that had Mage Hand at will? Wouldnt they just use that to escape? Im really not trying to be difficult. If you just want this is a flying mount, id say ditch the tail and the thumbs, give it an INT of 2 and be off. If you want it to be a PC race, these things seem like they are bound to come up during play.
Novem 09-06-07, 05:02 PM	As Mair created Dragons with the idea of them being his servants, it's safe to say he was a tad crazy and probably not the brightest tool in the shed. That said, Mair wanted them as mounts and servants. It would make sense that he would give them Mage Hand, so they could- well, serve. And after all, he would have wanted them to surmount those same obstacles. I am also lessening the weight limitation to aid use of the ability.
ToastedAmphibian 09-06-07, 05:48 PM	This alows a 6th lvl character with 18 str to throw 300lb objects 40ft away as a move action at will. This deals 4d6 damage to all in teh area, i belive. This is equal to there breath weapon damage at lvl 20, takes only a move action instead of a standard action, and is usuable every round instead of evry 4 rounds. You've creatged a telekinetic rock throwing dragon. :}
Novem 09-06-07, 10:10 PM	Fixed. Though that rock throw only has a range of 15 feet.
ToastedAmphibian 09-06-07, 11:50 PM	Well, you still have teh problem of them being able to snatch things up while flying 25 ft in teh air, pull off other riders, move clouds ect. More importantly however, they could just push a 100 pound object across the ground in front of them while flying. I belive move actions are only requiered during flight to change direction and such, right? If your going to increase the str, why not decrease the range? Make it so that it only can effect things within 5ft of teh caster, and cant cause anything to move more than 5 feet in a round?
Novem 09-07-07, 04:58 PM	You have to concentrate on Mage Hand. It's difficult to perform complex tasks whilst flying. But I shall adopt your 5ft houserule
ToastedAmphibian 09-07-07, 06:13 PM	You have to concentrate on Mage Hand. It's difficult to perform complex tasks whilst flying. But I shall adopt your 5ft houserule HEHE, ya i guess you could have them fail to notice the giant redwood infront of them if someone tries it :}
Novem 09-07-07, 07:05 PM	HEHE, ya i guess you could have them fail to notice the giant redwood infront of them if someone tries it :} That's my next encounter idea- thanks! (But seriously, that would be funny, though not as funny as the dragon flying into a castle or something similar. Of course, the new 5ft range fixes the problems for us.
ToastedAmphibian 09-07-07, 08:54 PM	Sounds good and playable. Not sure what LA should be, if any, so good luck on that respect. One last thing though. You might want to switch common and draconic on teh language lists, both for fluff and mechanical reasons.They where created and raised by a wizard. Unless he spoke draconic fluently (Which is certaintly possible) he would want his servants to speak common. If he planned on selling them, then even more so. Even teh really stupid ones should know common.
Novem 09-07-07, 09:56 PM	Fixed.