Post/Author/DateTime	Post
WereForged 03-03-08, 05:45 PM	I need help with something. One of my players really wants to play an undead. I don't mind some undead in the party it's just that the only playble undead that i know of are way to Powerful for my campaign. And frankly necropolitins or what ever they're called are just silly in my opinion. So I was gonna ask if anyone knows of a playable undead race with an ECL of +3 or less that isn't a template?
deadkoo 03-03-08, 06:14 PM	check out the libris mortis... but uhh... The Lowest ECL for undead that I see is 5 for a ghoul(LA of 3 +2 HD)... so uh yea..
zeratulcraft 03-03-08, 07:51 PM	Bone or Corpse creature from Book of Vile Darkness. While they don't have an LA, one could easily be made (prolly +1/+2 area).
Martel732 03-03-08, 07:55 PM	I don't know if it would work but what about a skeleton or zombie under the effects of an awaken undead spell from the spell compendium. Possibly assume that their character died as a first level whatever class (fighter for example). Then some powerful necromancer cast awaken undead on him (or a modified variant that give him a charisma score). I don't know how exactly to handle the attribute scores maybe just have him roll as normal for his original race w/o further adjustment. Then give him the bonuses and drawbacks listed in the monster manual. Also I don't know how to handle level adjustment. While, being undead gives some drawbacks, they also have improved initiative, damage reduction, immunity to cold, and darkvision which might warrant a +1 adjustment. Well if this seems unusable please ignore. If not hopefully someone else can help flesh-out (hehehe pun) the idea.
Commodore_Reddington 03-03-08, 08:45 PM	I don't know if it would work but what about a skeleton or zombie under the effects of an awaken undead spell from the spell compendium. Possibly assume that their character died as a first level whatever class (fighter for example). Then some powerful necromancer cast awaken undead on him (or a modified variant that give him a charisma score). I don't know how exactly to handle the attribute scores maybe just have him roll as normal for his original race w/o further adjustment. Then give him the bonuses and drawbacks listed in the monster manual. Also I don't know how to handle level adjustment. While, being undead gives some drawbacks, they also have improved initiative, damage reduction, immunity to cold, and darkvision which might warrant a +1 adjustment. Well if this seems unusable please ignore. If not hopefully someone else can help flesh-out (hehehe pun) the idea. The libris Mortis Lists the effective levels for skeleton and zombie cohorts. You could prolly use those for ball parkin' it. ___________ Set fire to their water supply. They'll never see it come'n... Yar!!! -Commodore Reddington
Shaggy_Shaggs 03-03-08, 09:07 PM	Necropolitans aren't actually too bad if you ignore the relatively ridiculous fluff text they give them. Is there any reason you can't just give him the necropolitan template and call him a thinking zombie?
The_Shaman 03-03-08, 10:40 PM	Necropolitans are nice imo, and quite decent for casters. What else... the RoF Curst can be fairly feasible and have a mechanism that doesn't let them die easily, and iirc there was a template called Swordwraith that wasn't too bad either. What about Awakened skellies/zombies?
Decinious 03-03-08, 11:03 PM	Why the issue with templates? I'd go with anything with a template over something with racial HD... Bone Creature from the Book of Vile Darkness is my favorite for a caster, Energy Sub(cold), Lord of the Utter Dark for the win. Bone and Corpse should be only +1, if you try to up it to +2 i'll quickly dig out a gravetouched ghoul for way more perks.
AZNsupermarket 03-04-08, 01:36 AM	Necropolitians are great, especially if you plan on playing a dread necromancer
StackingZerglings 03-04-08, 08:33 PM	Ok... I am that player that wanted to play the undead. What I was thinking is creating a custom undead template that is not immune to level drain and energy drain effects like other undead. Actaully, the only things that make him undead are A) No constitution score and B) For all roleplaying reasons, he is a lich. (AKA a lich with none of the immunities and no phylachery. His attribute modifiers are: -6 Str, no constution score, +10 Int, -2 Wis, -6 Cha. Also, wereforged is using a special rule that if you attack with a standard attack (including full attacks, melee attacks, and ranged attacks, just no spells) that you add your hit dice to the attack damage. Example: A lv 5 barbarian hits a target dealing (normal damage + 5d12). Would this template be balenced with a +0 LA? This character will be a wizard. Please take the +hit dice houserule into account when judging balence. Sorry for the huge block of text.
Shaggy_Shaggs 03-04-08, 08:38 PM	That is in no way balanced, and the ability scores you're suggesting are nothing like a lich (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm).
The_Shaman 03-04-08, 10:38 PM	Necropolitians are great, especially if you plan on playing a dread necromancer Or archivists, or maybe even clerics ;)
CryoSilver 03-04-08, 10:46 PM	I feel that just slapping the undead type on a human along with +2 turn resistance is worth about LA +1. LA +2 if you give them unholy toughness (+Cha mod to hp)
StevenO 03-04-08, 11:31 PM	Necropolitan (Libris Mortis) is definitely the best way to go for an undead PC who desires a low LA.
Cendragon 03-04-08, 11:53 PM	I'm currently running a campaign where the characters are ghouls with 4 class levels, so effectively they are 9th level characters. I am using the Libris Mortis. However, it also lists a progression for a ghoul to slowly get their powers, so you can running a 1st level, 2nd level, 3rd level, etc. ghoul; just refer to the chart to see what powers and abilities they have.
Rhualtaen 03-05-08, 12:34 AM	His attribute modifiers are: -6 Str, no constution score, +10 Int, -2 Wis, -6 Cha. Also, wereforged is using a special rule that if you attack with a standard attack (including full attacks, melee attacks, and ranged attacks, just no spells) that you add your hit dice to the attack damage. Example: A lv 5 barbarian hits a target dealing (normal damage + 5d12). Would this template be balenced with a +0 LA? This character will be a wizard. Please take the +hit dice houserule into account when judging balence. No, this is not balanced. I don't need to be a mathematician or playtester of any sort to tell you this, just an experienced DM. You're lowering abilities like Strength and Charisma that matter very little to a pure spell-casting machine and sending Intelligence, the ability that does matter, through the roof. Even if this is more or less in line with ability score modifications suggested in the DMG, one has to examine this from a realistic standpoint, as well. Taking it to an extreme like this and calling it a balanced class is not what the writers had in mind. Incidentally, what is the point of adding hit dice to attack damage? Unless monsters do this too, combats will be a cakewalk for melee characters. And if your adversaries do get this bonus, get used to dying a lot.
WereForged 03-05-08, 06:54 PM	No, this is not balanced. I don't need to be a mathematician or playtester of any sort to tell you this, just an experienced DM. You're lowering abilities like Strength and Charisma that matter very little to a pure spell-casting machine and sending Intelligence, the ability that does matter, through the roof. Even if this is more or less in line with ability score modifications suggested in the DMG, one has to examine this from a realistic standpoint, as well. Taking it to an extreme like this and calling it a balanced class is not what the writers had in mind. Incidentally, what is the point of adding hit dice to attack damage? Unless monsters do this too, combats will be a cakewalk for melee characters. And if your adversaries do get this bonus, get used to dying a lot. I agree with you. I Don't think that it's very balanced.As for the hit dice thing monsters do it to...and the party has done fine.
StackingZerglings 03-05-08, 06:59 PM	Ok... this character was a rough draft. Would a +6 Int bonus be more realistic? The main reason is for roleplaying purposes, not spellcasting.
WereForged 03-05-08, 07:16 PM	Ok... this character was a rough draft. Would a +6 Int bonus be more realistic? The main reason is for roleplaying purposes, not spellcasting. evan if that was(i'm not saying it is) just adding undead is at least a +1 LA. so if it was like a +4 maybe. I'd still hhave to see what else you added i.e. spell like abilities and whatnot.
Shaggy_Shaggs 03-05-08, 07:48 PM	If the extra Int is for purposes other than spell casting, you could mimic it with racial bonuses on int-based skills, getting extra skill points per hd/level (like humans but boosted), or keeping certain int-based skills as class skills regardless of actual class (changelings do this with speak language).
StackingZerglings 03-05-08, 07:53 PM	This is the current race: -6 Str +6 Int -2 Wis -6 Cha Either no constitution or -6 Con (whatever Wereforged thinks is best). And thats it. No special powers. He is undead for roleplaying purposes, thats it. I still think that the Int bonus should be higher (+8 to +10) but thats just my opinion.
ChaoticIdealism 03-05-08, 08:15 PM	If you don't play a spellcaster, you will be playing a very weak character. And if you do, you'll be playing a too-strong one. I would take the Necropolitan template, slap it onto a human, and call that your character. Forget about the ability mods.
StackingZerglings 03-05-08, 08:54 PM	ChaoticIdealism, you are probably right, but because I am a :censored: , I still think that this character should have a bonus to Int for two reasons: A)The character needs to have a very high intelegence for roleplaying reasons (he's a NE Wizard, just think about a character that usually is the mastermind behind evil plots to conquor the universe and gain power that will rival the gods. Some good comparisons are the Lich king for WarCraft, Anubis from Stargate, ect...) B)I am worried about not being able to keep pace with the melee characters in our group. My character will definately not be able to deal near the amout of damage they will, (with the hit dice rule) and I am worried about becoming a utility character. I plan on playing a battlefield control/ save or die wizard. The high Int would probably give me a pretty big advantage on save or die spells, so mabye I could have his effective Int for bonus spells and saving throws be lower.:thinks:
DarkBrandon 03-05-08, 09:04 PM	Just pick up libris Mortis, and if you don't want to pick out a book, play a normal character until 6th lvl...then...work out with your DM you die and basically reroll a character that's undead.
StackingZerglings 03-05-08, 09:06 PM	I already have Libris Mortis. Mabye there is something that will help me in there. Edit: Oh yeah, he's been undead for quite a while, (5000+ years) which explains his outragious Int score.
zig-mover 03-05-08, 10:36 PM	Warforged w/ Living Construct... It gives him -2 levels and will allow him to take anything with a +5 ECL without going over the +3 you want... Plus, it be a cool story to tell to his friends.... "Guess what... I am a Undead Warforged."
StackingZerglings 03-05-08, 10:47 PM	Warforged w/ Living Construct... It gives him -2 levels and will allow him to take anything with a +5 ECL without going over the +3 you want... Plus, it be a cool story to tell to his friends.... "Guess what... I am a Undead Warforged." Well, that is an awsome idea, and I would like to play a future character like that, but an undead warforged just doesnt fit the image. Anyways, I was thinking about dropping the huge + to Int and just dropping it down to a -2 Str, -2 Con, -2 Cha and +4 Int. I don't care about all the undead immunities, I just want my character to qualify as undead for roleplaying reasons only. It is pretty much a reversed version of an Orc. That way I will still be able to get an awsome Int score through items and level boosts. Off to the CharOp forums to see the max Int by level 10. :evillaugh
Alleine 03-06-08, 12:58 AM	Whoa, dead for 5000+ years? Have you considered the evolved undead template for that guy? On second thought... looking at the template... you'd get to roll for the chance to evolve 50 times.... Plus the LA is something you aren't looking for...
WereForged 03-07-08, 03:49 AM	Evan if it was reversed orc. You gotta realize, orcs still have a LA of +1. And evan then you wouldn't be an undead unless you had undead traits. so no con. witch would add andother +1. so we're looking at at least a +2LA.
Shaggy_Shaggs 03-07-08, 06:06 AM	Evan if it was reversed orc. You gotta realize, orcs still have a LA of +1. And evan then you wouldn't be an undead unless you had undead traits. so no con. witch would add andother +1. so we're looking at at least a +2LA. Orcs are actually LA +0, unless you're talking houserules. Int is far more valuable than Str though, taking a +4 Int for -2 penalties across the board physically is a fairly advantageous trade. I notice he didn't actually suggest that, though, he'd rather have a Cha penalty than a Dex penalty... funny, Dex is quite possibly the most useful ability score in the game, I wonder why he doesn't want that penalized for his "reversed orc". :rolleyes: Undead traits are nifty but I wouldn't call them worth LA on their own. They come with some really nasty downsides - few hp (d12 averages 6.5, same as d8+2 or d6+3), no margin of error to live in below 0 hp, difficulty getting healed, and being destroyed outright or compelled to serve with no saving throw by anyone sufficiently powerful with Turn/Rebuke Undead. There's more but a lot of it circumstantial (inability to use grafts really sucks if that kind of reward is available, and doesn't matter at all if it's not, for example).
StackingZerglings 03-07-08, 12:00 PM	Orcs are actually LA +0, unless you're talking houserules. Int is far more valuable than Str though, taking a +4 Int for -2 penalties across the board physically is a fairly advantageous trade. I notice he didn't actually suggest that, though, he'd rather have a Cha penalty than a Dex penalty... funny, Dex is quite possibly the most useful ability score in the game, I wonder why he doesn't want that penalized for his "reversed orc". :rolleyes: Undead traits are nifty but I wouldn't call them worth LA on their own. They come with some really nasty downsides - few hp (d12 averages 6.5, same as d8+2 or d6+3), no margin of error to live in below 0 hp, difficulty getting healed, and being destroyed outright or compelled to serve with no saving throw by anyone sufficiently powerful with Turn/Rebuke Undead. There's more but a lot of it circumstantial (inability to use grafts really sucks if that kind of reward is available, and doesn't matter at all if it's not, for example). He doesn't actually have any undead traits, just a roleplaying aspect. However, I could have him take a -2 Dex peniality too, but it just doesn't fit with the concept very well. If you think it will make the race more balenced, I guess the racial modifiers could be -2 Str, -2 Dex, -2 Con, +4 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha. I don't think that the Dex minuses should apply though, because, although the Str minus means almost nothing, the Con minus really hurts and that with the Wis and Cha I think drops it down to perfecally balenced. Taking a look at the individual attributes, -2 Con = +2 Int and -2 Wis, -2 Cha, -2 Str = +2 Int. And before I forget, Disguise is a racial skill (to help blend in in urban enviroments).
Damned slayer 03-07-08, 03:22 PM	He doesn't actually have any undead traits, just a roleplaying aspect. However, I could have him take a -2 Dex peniality too, but it just doesn't fit with the concept very well. If you think it will make the race more balenced, I guess the racial modifiers could be -2 Str, -2 Dex, -2 Con, +4 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha. I don't think that the Dex minuses should apply though, because, although the Str minus means almost nothing, the Con minus really hurts and that with the Wis and Cha I think drops it down to perfecally balenced. Taking a look at the individual attributes, -2 Con = +2 Int and -2 Wis, -2 Cha, -2 Str = +2 Int. And before I forget, Disguise is a racial skill (to help blend in in urban enviroments). emphasis mine are we still talking about undead because they got - as constitution score and they always roll d12 no matter the class (that part im less shure for PC tho)
StackingZerglings 03-07-08, 05:17 PM	emphasis mine are we still talking about undead because they got - as constitution score and they always roll d12 no matter the class (that part im less shure for PC tho) Ok... just to clarify: he has NO undead traits whatsoever. The only ways that he is even close to undead (rules wise) is that he does not require food, water, and oxygen. He does not gain d12 hit dice and still has a Constitution score. Pretty much the only way he is considered undead is, although he does not have any of the abilities of undead, is the roleplaying aspect (AKA my DM does not want a character to be immune to save or die spells, attribute drain ect... and I don't care about all of the immunities). The undead part is only a roleplaying aspect, nothing that alters his power. Just consider him as any normal living race.
WereForged 03-10-08, 12:12 AM	Ok... just to clarify: he has NO undead traits whatsoever. The only ways that he is even close to undead (rules wise) is that he does not require food, water, and oxygen. He does not gain d12 hit dice and still has a Constitution score. Pretty much the only way he is considered undead is, although he does not have any of the abilities of undead, is the roleplaying aspect (AKA my DM does not want a character to be immune to save or die spells, attribute drain ect... and I don't care about all of the immunities). The undead part is only a roleplaying aspect, nothing that alters his power. Just consider him as any normal living race. Then why call it an undead? if it doesn't display anytraits beside those, then it isn't an undead. Is it some psuedorace of half liveing/ half dead? No? well then you're gonna need to take undead traits if you want to be called undead. Evan if it is just some roleplaying aspect. Undead=undead traits. plain and simple. Orcs are actually LA +0, unless you're talking houserules. Int is far more valuable than Str though, taking a +4 Int for -2 penalties across the board physically is a fairly advantageous trade. I notice he didn't actually suggest that, though, he'd rather have a Cha penalty than a Dex penalty... funny, Dex is quite possibly the most useful ability score in the game, I wonder why he doesn't want that penalized for his "reversed orc". Oh wow, I always thought orcs were a +1 LA. My bad.
StackingZerglings 03-10-08, 02:58 PM	Ok, so here is the finilized (hopefully) race statistics: -2 Str, -2 Con, +4 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha. Base land speed 30 ft Blindsight 10 ft Automatic languages: Common. Bonus languages: All No need for sustinance or oxygen. Favored class: Wizard I would give him undead traits for help on the roleplaying aspect, but that would give me a level adjustment, and I really don't need that.
Cifer 03-10-08, 03:40 PM	Blindsight 10 ft Er... no. Blindsight is one of the most difficult to get abilities in the game and nowhere near balanced at LA+0. Compare, for example, the Dragon Disciple: They get Blindsense after ten levels in a prestige class. It may be 60 feet instead of 10, but there's a huge difference between the two, including the fact that you're now essentially immune against anything stealthbased that doesn't go for ranged combat.
StackingZerglings 03-10-08, 04:20 PM	I wasn't sure how powerful blindsight could be, so there that goes. Here is the new version: -2 Str, -2 Con, +4 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha. Base land speed 30 ft Automatic languages: Common. Bonus languages: All No need for sustinance or oxygen. Favored class: Wizard Hope this is good.
WereForged 03-10-08, 06:10 PM	Well i suppose that would work, BUT it isn't an undead. onlything that is "undead" about it is the no need for food and oxygen. which when you think about it, only part of that that's really undead is the oxygen part. sure undead don't need food, but if they didn't why else would mindless zombies attack adventurers and try to eat them? That's to assume they arn't controlled by some other power, just zombies. And isn't zombie alignment neutral, so it stands to say that the typical zombie does need to eat. So if you wanna include in that factor then the only undead thing about this race would be no need for oxygen. Then again neither does a rock.
StackingZerglings 03-10-08, 06:54 PM	Ok... so this is finished? I'm going to spend all of my gold on +Int items and a get a phylactery as soon as I can. Thanks. :) Edit: Oh yeah, before I forget, Wereforged, do I start out with average gold for my level?
WereForged 03-10-08, 07:00 PM	Ok, still but I got to know are we going with undead traits? cause if not then you aint no undead. You're just some weird sickly guy who doesn't need to eat or breath.
StackingZerglings 03-11-08, 12:41 AM	:D Huzzah. Done. Well, I'm going to roleplay him as undead and then take the lich template asap so I guess this will work. :) Thanks for helping me balence this :w00t:
TheDeadPoet 03-14-08, 01:46 PM	You could always try Deathless...kind the good version of undead...
StackingZerglings 03-14-08, 06:16 PM	You could always try Deathless...kind the good version of undead... I'm playing a NE character. Anyways, I don't know what book thats in.