Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Wayne 04-05-07, 02:17 AM	Hey, folks. It's taken a couple years, but I've finally made my peace with 3.5 and [to an extent, heh] the Internets, and maybe it's time to come back. Browsing some threads and seeing old names almost makes me feel like I miss this place... so best get to posting while it lasts. :D One thing that's bugged me ever since Savage Species (well, since AD&D, technically, but in a different way) was how it tried to "balance" monsters against PCs, despite using two entirely different rules structures: -PCs advance incrementally, gradually acquiring special abilities and magic items, based on their presumed power level; while -Monsters get arbitrary lists of powers and features up front, then have their "level" calculated afterward. Those ideas are only slightly less incompatible than comparing a D&D character with, say, a Tri-Stat one (indeed, LA is a system of "buying" powers with levels, which is much more akin to a point-based classless progression than D&D's), and then "balancing" them. Much time and ink [and I guess pixels?] have been wasting on debating LA when the problem really is no more complex than that. So... what to do about it? Well, like one's mother might say... they have to learn to play nicely together. --- Concept The initial idea is pretty simple; using roughly the same rules to build any monster as are used for player characters. For some, this obviously doesn't work... true "monsters" like elementals and oozes were never meant to be playable, nor are mindless creatures. Some are "playable" but not using the same rules; dragons come to mind. The vast majority, however, can probably be represented with base and prestige classes, with some tweaking. Here's some ground rules: -"Monsters" are generated on a 28-point buy. You could use other methods, like running their modified stats against the elite array; but since many monsters have one or two high stats, this method works better. Creatures with HD but whose stats are too low for this method will typically just become normal races without HD. -Effective level (ECL) always equals CR. This will almost always come from levels, but templates (see near the end) count too. -Flat bonuses will simply come from "gp," same as for PCs. "Innate" bonuses, like high stats, will use item market prices, except with the DMG 30% reduction from p. 282 (these "items" can't be traded out or shared with other PCs; only "advanced" as necessary). -Nerf abilities into more-balanced, scaling powers that either come from race or variant class features. Similarly, tweak nonstandard abilities: there's no good reason for mariliths and giant octopi to get 4:1 attack ratios on normal characters. Similarly, handing out massive piles of stackable natural armor is by far the most useful feature of basic polymorph spells, and that shouldn't be true either. -Realize how valuable certain strengths and weaknesses are. In many dungeons, size can be a drawback; and regeneration is overvalued as a PC ability (as we noted on one of the troll threads recently, basically all it does is make sure the regenerating PC doesn't die if he gets "dropped," which is handy at best at low levels and a nonfactor once save-or-dies and raise spells take over). On the other hand, incorporeality and infinite divinations basically wreck a typical campaign. -Don't be afraid to change the rules. For example, I'm giving monsters a stat raise every 2 levels instead of 4, both because it matters more at the low levels most PCs play at (remember, a feature can't be unbalanced if everyone has it) and it helps make up for the limited focus most monsters have. I also just made a couple of typical powers into feats and nerfed them [quite a bit, in the case of Regeneration]. These changes should only be done to improve the game, however, not just to nerf/boost monsters. -Finally, note that sample builds are just that-- samples. Monsters who deviate from the norm and pick up other class levels can lose some-- or most-- of their "iconic" powers, and picking up other ones instead. Of course, this is deliberate-- there's no need to have five different flavors of, say, Rakshasa if you can just have one race, and let them advance in different classes. Examples Many times I've heard someone mention in one of the myriad threads about LA, "Well, they could make a progression for all those 'playable' monsters, but it'll never happen." And then everyone kind of nods sorrowfully and get back to making fun of Drow. It might well be true, but darn it, I'm pretty sure we can do this; at least for the popular "monsters." So here's a few, and some LA 0 races later, as examples. First, an easy one. Each one is linked to the SRD for comparison purposes. The Ogre (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ogre.htm), Large Giant Barbarian 3 Str 20, Dex 10, Con 15, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 7 (Lvl 2: +1 Dex) (Point Buy: Str 18, Dex 11, Con 13, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 9) 31 hp, -1 Initiative, Move 30' (40' base) AC 16 (-1 size, +5 armor, +1 natural enhancement) BAB +3/Grp +12; Greatclub +9 (2d8+7) Fort +5 (+7 Rage), Ref +0, Will +1 (+3 Rage) SA Rage 1/day SQ Darkvision 60', Low-light vision, Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense +1 Skills: Literacy (Speak Language 1), Climb +6, Listen +2, Spot +2 Feats: Power Attack, Brutal Throw (CAdv) "Items": masterwork breastplate (-350 gp), masterwork greatclub (-305 gp) Ogre Race: Giant type (Large size) +2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Dex, -2 Int, -Cha 60' Darkvision and low-light vision Thick-Skinned; Ogres gain a +1 enhancement bonus to armor from natural armor (this doesn't stack with other enhancement bonuses) Clumsy; an Ogre only has a 5' reach with natural weapons, light weapons, or unarmed strikes, and does not threaten spaces adjacent to him while wielding a one-handed or two-handed weapon * At 6th level, this penalty is removed So, there we have a big melee bruiser who until other classes get their secondary attack has a weakness in close combat (which he otherwise dominates at). A plucky fighter actually can "step into" his reach and be safe [for the moment]; a more experienced ogre can deal with that. Since reach is the real prize for the Large size at low levels, that helps balance it. It's still really good with spiked chains, but that's because spiked chains are really good. Now for a trickier one: The Nymph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nymph.htm), Medium Fey Druid 5/Mystic Wanderer (Magic of Faerun) 2 Str 10, Dex 16, Con 10, Int 16, Wis 16, Cha 19 (Lvl 2: +1 Int, 4/6: +2 Cha) (Point Buy: Str 12, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 13) 31 hp, +3 Initiative, Move 30' AC 17 (+3 Dex, +4 Sacred) BAB +4/Grp +4; Dagger +7 (-2, Noncombatant Flaw) 1d4 Fort +4, Ref +7, Will +12 SA Spellcasting (7th level Druid) SQ Unearthly Grace, Low-light vision, Druid class features Skills: 76 skill points (compared to 88 normally) Feats: Combat Casting, Iron Will, Weapon Finesse (Flaw: Nymph's Kiss) "Items": Innate +2 Dex (-2800 gp) and +2 Int (-2800 gp) and +2 Wis (-2800 gp) and +2 Cha (-2800 gp), Innate Dimension Door (as Cloak of the Mountebank, -7056 gp), masterwork dagger (-302 gp) Nymph Race (Medium Fey): +2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Str, -2 Con Iron Weakness: a nymph is Sickened while in contact with a cold iron object, and for 1 minute thereafter (this includes being struck by a cold iron weapon) Unearthly Grace (can start or suppress as a Swift action; only while unarmored [and mostly unclothed] and unencumbered): * As an immediate action, can add her Cha bonus to one saving throw * Blinding Beauty (Su): while active, targets within 30' must make a Fort save or be blinded for 1d4 rounds (once per day at 4th level, and +1/4 levels after that; a nymph can strike one affected target with permanent blindness as a spell-like ability) * Stunning Glance (Su): requires a standard action; one target within 30' must make a Fort save or be affected as follows: if same or more HD: stunned 1 round if 1-2 HD less: stunned 1d4 rounds if 3-4 HD less: stunned 2d4 rounds if 5 HD less or more: unconscious 1 minute * Feyskin (Su): While active, gains DR /Cold Iron equal to her level (maximum 10), which can absorb up to 10 damage per level (to 150); if this DR is depleted, the nymph is sickened until she rests 8 hours, which also restores the DR Now instead of getting superior defensive abilities on top of full Druid casting, the nymph basically decides whether to fight in melee (as per powers are short-range) and risk injury or death; or hang back and cast spells, since in order to avoid Blinding her allies, she also gives up most of her defensive abilities. Switching the DR to stoneskin and the stunning glance to a weaker, at-will color spray are likewise more balanced and fair. Also, these abilities are all lost if she Wildshapes, which is a substantial penalty for most Druid builds. Now for a completely ridiculous one (linked to a personal web page since I'm not sure what WOTC policy is on non-SRD monsters-- I'm not reprinting it, only the conversion; but you never know): The Beholder (http://sirwayne.taikaiwiki.com/dnd/beholder.htm) A beholder playable from level 1?! Indeed. It's a bit stronger than some, but it has exactly one schtick at lower levels: flinging low-damage attacks or debuffs on one enemy at a time. Early antimagic is strong (even if it has limited uses and allows saves), sometimes a fight-winner; which probably makes up for the times when a beholder fights a plain old dire animal and is basically reduced to throwing rocks at it. In addition, it's pretty restricted (you basically have to play an Incarnum class or suck), but advancement is allowed through PrCs (Beholder Mage/Soulcaster, for example). Races! Balancing ECL 0 races is actually pretty easy once you agree to use the Dwarf as a baseline instead of the Half-Orc. You can toss in some goodies without feeling too bad, and note that penalties don't always have to be relevant. You can't go overboard (that's what Deep Dwarves and Whisper Gnomes are for), but you've got plenty of leeway. To that end, here's some of the more popular ones: Bugbear (Monstrous Humanoid) +2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha; Darkvision 60' Powerful build (counts as large without gaining reach or size) Scent +2 to Climb, Move Silently and Spot Aggressive: Bugbears deal +1d6 damage in the first round of combat, and reduce any Sneak Attack dice lost in using an [Ambush] feat by 1d6 Drow (Humanoid [Elf]) +2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Con, -2 Int* Darkvision 120', light blindness SR 5+level (10+level in total darkness) +2 to Hide and Survival Spell-like abilities (dancing lights, darkness, faerie fire, 1/day) Weapon familiarity (hand crossbow, Drow fingerblade, throwing knife or Xen'drik boomerang) * Depending on caste, some Drow instead have +2 Int, -2 Cha. Githzerai (Humanoid [Extraplanar]) +2 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Con, -2 Int Darkvision 60', Naturally Psionic (+1 power point) Focused Defense: while psionically focused, gain +4 Armor (as inertial armor and +2 Enhancement bonus to Dexterity; increases to +4 at 8th level and +6 at 13th) Power Resistance 5+HD (only works against psionics; even with psionics-magic transparency rules) Psi-like abilities: catfall, concussion, daze 1/day (+1 use/3 levels) Goblin (Humanoid [Goblinoid]) +2 Dex, -2 Cha (Small) Darkvision 60', +2 saves vs. disease and poison Tribal tactics (+1 to Aid Another, +1 on attack rolls while mounted or flanking) +2 to Listen, Move Silently, Ride Hobgoblin (Humanoid [Goblinoid]) +2 Dex, -2 Wis Darkvision 60' 1 1st level maneuver (strike, counter, or boost), as Martial Study feat Weapon Familiarity (katana and greatbow) +2 to Concentration and Move Silently Human (Humanoid [Human]) Bonus feat at 1st level +1 skill point per level (+4 at 1st) +1 level for all effects based on character or class level; doesn't stack with other effects that raise effective level Orc, Half (Humanoid) +2 Str, -2 Cha Darkvision 60' DR 1/bludgeoning or piercing Weapon familiarity (double axe, waraxe) +2 to Handle Animal, Intimidate, Survival Sure, you could nerf the better races down, but as the goal is to remove LA, and many monstrous races are simply better than the weaker Core races... that seems kind of counterproductive. Again, something can't be unbalanced if everything has it, so simply setting a higher standard is only problematic if you leave weaker options in play (or leave stronger ones alone). --- Things Left to be Done There's still no class for handling powerful outsiders with tons of spell-like abilities. Frank and K have the Conduit (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=646241), and I've been working on the Channeler (http://sirwayne.taikaiwiki.com/dnd/Channeler.htm), but nothing in official WOTC products quite handles it. Converting over spellcasting classes doesn't really work (as in many cases, particularly for the Angels; the SLAs are layered over full spellcasting anyway!), and neither do otherwise thematic choices like the Warlock (too weak) or Binder (too limited, and kind of silly that the things a Binder is binding use vestiges to do it...). This system has so far ignored templates. Their entire concept is "trading levels for power," in that they necessarily have abilities beyond what normal classes can [or are meant to; classes designed to fulfill the "Feral" niche would be too limited for anything else] grant, and grant it all at once (again, sometimes a necessity, like with lycanthropes). My idea currently is to turn templates into Bloodlines-esque "dummy levels" that don't grant hit dice, saves, BAB, etc. but still count (once!) toward level-dependent effects. Obviously that's a much better deal for casters than melee types, with the flipside that templates tend to benefit non-casters more since templates are skewed toward granting combat abilities and high physical stats. Of course, it wouldn't be hard to turn templates into class progressions (I've seen a few that do that already, like with vampires), but then you have other issues to deal with (namely that it removes a lot of the modularity of templates). Among them is having players decide between taking, say, 1 LA that doesn't grant them much, or three full levels that do; but not getting the powers they want as quickly. It's a hard question, one I'm still grappling with. Edit: Yeah, too tired. For this purpose, "templates" would probably include things like "being undead" or "being really big." Generic properties-- most Huge creatures are assumed to have the +16 Str that table in the MM says they're supposed to have-- and types are probably best represented mechanically by templates. Needless to say, going with that approach makes resolving their implementation a lot more important. The system also interacts oddly with summoning spells and polymorph effects, and similar abilities. I mean, not as much as it already does (if you have an issue with every succubus you summon being a Bard, you should really have a bigger issue with the fact that in the Core rules, they're all exactly the same), heh, but still. On the flipside, you no longer have to worry about somebody rolling up a troll, and adding piles of stat bonuses and full PC wealth to the monster... now all that stuff is factored in. Once we get done, and iron out all the other issues; you could see the potential of useful Savage Species-style progressions, where you indicate when sample monsters spend their equivalent "GP" on "items" and suggest good class combos. I have a couple more of these done, mostly waiting on feedback and ideas about the template thing. They include the succubus (Bard 6 with Tanar'ri template), Ogre-Mage (Sor 7-- using a "variant" where they don't suck and get spells the same time Wizards do >_>), Storm Giant (creative use of NPC classes counting half to get into Divine Champion of Air from Warrior levels), and a bunch of other races. Requests are of course welcome; I've mostly focused on things I've played/would like to play/have heard people talk about playing for now. Ugh... there's more, but now that's 1am, that stuff can wait. @_@ Look forward to hearing from you guys (even if it's pointing out that somebody's already done this recently... I browsed back a couple pages and didn't see anything besides that big thread currently talking about XP costs, heh, but I am only recently back).
sigma999 04-06-07, 10:47 PM	Interesting and I like what you've done, especially with altering the "add CHA to saves" down to "add CHA to one save as an immediate action". I recall doing the same with that Paladin ability and although there was some complaint (mostly from one of the powergamers), it also made certain fey, undead, and paladins/blackguard less godly. Unfortunately, Feyskin might need work. Conceptually I like it just as fey are in essence supernatural and their skin won't have to be tough or infused with anything, it's more like a force of will defence, but for the average player keeping track of a "DR pool" or w/e is just more numbers to write, and discouraging. I have yet to read through the LA+0 races but I will soon. Don't burn out please pace yourself!