Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SnarlyBear 09-15-07, 04:05 PM	We are looking at creating a PC Dwarven Werebear Paladin using a polar bear template. (He's from the Great White North, eh.) Since we are creating 8th level characters, a quick look at lycanthropes shows that it is a level adjustment of 3. Can this be right? A wereboar PC with adjustments of: Str +4 Con +6 3 bonus hit dice would be LA of 3. :blink: A werepolarbear PC with adjustments of Str +16 Dex +2 Con +8 8 bonus hit dice would also be LA of 3?? :bigeyes: :confused: What am I missing??? The MM says: Level Adjustment: Same as the base creature +2 (afflicted) or +3 (natural). Errata online does not alter this.
Silvercrys 09-15-07, 04:11 PM	That you also have to add the hit dice of the animal in the LA. They aren't 'bonus' hit dice; they're hit dice from the character's race (lycanthrope). So the wereboar has an ECL of 6 + class levels The werepolarbear has an ECL of 11 + class levels
BugHunter 09-15-07, 05:11 PM	The only way to play a were-polarbear at level eight is to use the savage progression articles which can be searched for on the main site.
SnarlyBear 09-15-07, 07:53 PM	That you also have to add the hit dice of the animal in the LA. They aren't 'bonus' hit dice; they're hit dice from the character's race (lycanthrope). So the wereboar has an ECL of 6 + class levels The werepolarbear has an ECL of 11 + class levels :) Great--Thanks! Where is the source of this rule. I need to back it up with the rules barristers that I hang out with. .
Silvercrys 09-15-07, 08:20 PM	It's in the rules for ECL. It says that you count racial hit dice, level adjustment, and class levels in the total ECL. (Besides the common sense that that stuff shouldn't be gained for 3 LA. But I do understand about those kinds of people; I have one in my group.) Either the DM's Guide or the Monster Manuel, I'm not sure which. Let me see if I can find a specific rule and a page/book for you. Page 173 of the DM's Guide: A monster with more than one Hit Die, a level adjustment, and class levels adds its Hit Dice, level adjustment, and class levels together when referring to (experience point table) Also check the glossary in the Monster Manuel in the 'Level Adjustment' entry.
omnicrondelicious 09-15-07, 08:44 PM	http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm Scroll down to the bottom, the bit about Lycanthropes as Player Characters, Racial Hit Dice. See also: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm "To determine the effective character level (ECL) of a monster character, add its level adjustment to its racial Hit Dice and character class levels." Note: currently I am running an all-lycanthrope campaign and I should point out that lycans present several interesting challenges. Most revolve around the frustration that is Control Shape. Essentially, to be an effective lycanthrope, you have to throw away many, many skill points into an otherwise useless skill called Control Shape. Since a large number of your levels are Animal, it's not like you have many skill points to spare either, so this hurts. To voluntarily change is a DC 15 check and it takes a standard action. Assuming a +3 Wisdom for your paladin, your base chance of voluntarily changing shape is only 45%. Nothing says "fun!" like losing your standard action on a failed control shape check so you better put in quite a few ranks if you want to be reliable about it. But it gets worse. Involuntary checks after you've lost 25% of your HP are at DC 25. Here you are, taking heavy damage, and guess what - your next standard action is going to be spent changing shape. Not running away, not attacking, but involuntarily changing. Sometimes it's what you wanted to do, but not often. And it gets even worse! If you do fail an involuntary check (and you will, often) you are stuck in your ANIMAL form until dawn. Not hybrid, not humanoid, but animal. You get one chance to retry but it's at least a DC 15 check. So here you are, taking heavy damage, and you change into bear form on your next turn, but if you want to be in humanoid or hybrid form, you have to spend another standard action, and have a decent chance of failing! And that's not all. All your gear that wouldn't fit the shape of a polar bear drops to the ground - armor, weapons, amulets, gloves, belts, healing potions etc. At higher levels, your gear really defines a lot of what you can do, so losing it hurts. If you do get stuck in animal form till dawn, you have to leave your gear behind, kill time until you can change back, or have the rest of the party pick up and carry all your stuff. Last but not least, full moons effectively prevent you from operating with subtlety at night in urban areas, onboard ships, etc. since the DC to resist changing is 25 (this is really nasty in Eberron since it seems there is always at least one full moon). And it's really fun when the party gets attacked at night and 3/4s of the party are stuck in animal form. Especially when it's the spellcasters. What we've concluded after some 8 months into this campaign is that afflicted lycanthropes, or at least werewolves since that's all we're using, are no better than a PC with comparable hit dice. The level adjustment is excessive. Levels in animal are just not very good - the stat bonus is great, the hit dice are ok, but the skill points, abilities, and BAB aren't. So the inferior animal levels combined with the Control Shape Tax on skill points and standard actions effectively equal out the benefits of being a lycanthrope IMO. Level adjustment isn't needed. .o.
BugHunter 09-15-07, 09:14 PM	A natural lycan does not need the control shape skill as stated on page 303 of MM1.
omnicrondelicious 09-15-07, 10:39 PM	A natural lycan does not need the control shape skill as stated on page 303 of MM1. You are correct, for some reason I just assumed he was talking about afflicted lycans. My bad.
Novem 09-15-07, 10:55 PM	Lycanthrope would be better as a class, anyway.
BugHunter 09-15-07, 11:10 PM	Lycanthrope would be better as a class, anyway. That is what the savage progression articles did. You can play a lycan at lower levels and slowly gain the abilities and hit dice of the lycan.
Ecalsneerg 09-16-07, 04:40 AM	:) Great--Thanks! Where is the source of this rule. I need to back it up with the rules barristers that I hang out with. If they don't understand ECL, are they even allowed to use the name rules barrister?
Silvercrys 09-16-07, 11:08 AM	If they don't understand ECL, are they even allowed to use the name rules barrister? You don't need to know the rules in order to be stubborn about them. Merely think that your interpretation is correct. Even if it isn't.
Tsuul 09-16-07, 11:27 AM	LA + racial HD = ECL Here is an example progression of a werebear from wizards. Scroll down a bit. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031114a A polar bear has more HD, I think, so tack those extra abilities onto the "animal" class under more levels and you are finished. Also download they MM errata as it completely changes how changing shape affects your equipment. It's going to be a huge bonus for your player. Before changing shape destroyed your gear. (Bad bad bad) Now read the section on "Alternate form" and remove some stuff from the MM lycanthrope entry. The gist: Human -> animal: gear falls off. Human -> hybrid: gear changes shape to conform (EVEN CHANGES SIZE) animal -> human: gear falls off. hybrid -> human: gear falls off.