Post/Author/DateTime	Post
HVK 06-04-07, 06:08 AM	This is an Elf/Human, with more human than Elf. Ability Adjustments: -4 Strength, -2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom, +4 Charisma. They're frail, but very knowledgable. Medium size Base Land Speed 30 feet Darkvision 60feet and low light vision Immune to magic sleep effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects. Automatic Languages: Common, Elven. Bonus Languages: Any. Favored Class: Any spellcaster. (Kiirnodel may have any class as their favored class, so long as it possesses some link to spell casting) Includes prestige classes that give spells per day as though you leveled in an older class. Special Ability Emerald Flame 2nd Character level: Turns spell energy into 1D6 damage equal to spell level. (9th level spell 9D6) Range=magic missile 7th Character Level: Turns spell energy into 2D6 damage equal to spell level. (9th level spell 18D6) range=magic missile 17th Character Level: Turns spell energy into 3D6 damage equal to spell level. (9th level spell 27D6) range=magic missile I'm not sure if I need to give it an LA, or how to tweak it, or if it's over or underpowered right now, so please help me.
molten_dragon 06-04-07, 06:18 AM	I'm not sure about the LA part. However, the potential for min-maxing there is outrageous. And the spell abilities seem very powerful. If they are a human/elf crossbreed, what's with all the changes to ability scores, neither humans or elves have them, why would this race?
Morwen 06-04-07, 06:28 AM	It's at least LA +1, without the Emerald Flame ability. How is that ability supposed to work? Do you spend a spell slot to use it, and is it a standard action?
HVK 06-04-07, 06:31 AM	Well because it's more part a history, powerful spellcasters recognized for their special trait of the emerald flame, while known to be physically useless their magic power was beyond that of an ordinary human. Simply backstory reasons is why the ability adjustments. I guess the potential is there yes, but the players in the group...I'm one of three who knows anything about the system. (one of the three being DM...) But I thought simply historical reasons, I'd set-up a special clan/sub-race for my character, I just don't want it overpowered. (or underpowered.) So thank you for you're input =). Yes I'd say a standard action, and yes you spend a spell slot on it, I believe spell slot is the per day.
Naderion 06-04-07, 06:33 AM	I don't see the concept behind this race: Its a 3 part human, 1 part elf, but how does that result in these ability modifiers? This is way overpowered. For anything but spellcasters, it is useless. For spellcasters, it is really powerfull with +8 to the mental ability scores.
Morwen 06-04-07, 06:38 AM	Okay. I'd say +2 LA then. The ability to select only nondamaging spells known and prepared, and still have the ability to convert them to damage-spells whenever necessary is pretty good.
HVK 06-04-07, 06:41 AM	+2 LA. Hmm penalties that people think should be put in, apparently this is a little better than I'd originally hoped..
Otto the Bugbear 06-04-07, 07:06 AM	+2-3 LA. At least. I'd heavily lean toward +3. Compare it to the Fey'Ri (Races of Faerun), which aren't as good as this.
Pfisiar 06-04-07, 08:40 AM	+2-3 LA. At least. I'd heavily lean toward +3. Compare it to the Fey'Ri (Races of Faerun), which aren't as good as this. I'd have to agree with the +3 level adjustment. Giving mental ability boosts is rather dangerous. Giving ability boosts over +2 is exceptionally dangerous. While I like the idea of turning spell energy to damage, it is just too powerful. The Druidic and Cleric ability to turn spells into healing/summoning is not nearly as good as the ability to turn non-damaging, specific spells into damage. Reduce the +4/-4 modifiers to two. Reduce the modifiers to one negative, one positive. I think it'd be neat if the player could choose where to put the negative in physical and the positive in mental. This could allow you to keep the emerald flame ability while not getting more than a +1 LA.
HVK 06-04-07, 08:59 AM	Hmm, alright then well is +4 really all that dangerous, I can't really see how it's dangerous...the primary thing I see is 2 bonus first level spells per day... Thank you all for you're help though.
Rustmonster 06-04-07, 09:27 AM	This is an Elf/Human, with more human than Elf. Ability Adjustments: -4 Strength, -2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom, +4 Charisma. They're frail, but very knowledgable. Medium size Base Land Speed 30 feet Darkvision 60feet and low light vision Immune to magic sleep effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects. Automatic Languages: Common, Elven. Bonus Languages: Any. Favored Class: Any spellcaster. (Kiirnodel may have any class as their favored class, so long as it possesses some link to spell casting) Includes prestige classes that give spells per day as though you leveled in an older class. Special Ability Emerald Flame 2nd Character level: Turns spell energy into 1D6 damage equal to spell level. (9th level spell 9D6) Range=magic missile 7th Character Level: Turns spell energy into 2D6 damage equal to spell level. (9th level spell 18D6) range=magic missile 17th Character Level: Turns spell energy into 3D6 damage equal to spell level. (9th level spell 27D6) range=magic missile I'm not sure if I need to give it an LA, or how to tweak it, or if it's over or underpowered right now, so please help me. 27D6?!?!?!? Seriously? That's stronger than ANY 9th level spell, other than save or die. Average damage: 94.5! This is called very quick death for all. Especially when you can just be churning out death in exchange for something you prepared that wasn't as usful. Or, since this is a sorcerer race, NOT NEEDING TO PREPARE! With +4 cha, and, lets just say, 18 base cha at level one, it gets a +6 bonus. Your CANTRIPS have a save of 16! And if you had the slots, you could already cast 9th level spells! This race is highly overpowered. And it's really strange, since it's supossed to be half human half elf. Why did it get dark vision? Why did it get death spells? PS, I did not understand your post explaning the "Emerald Flame". Are you saying that you are one of 3 people who know of some sort of fire death magic?
YabaTheWhat 06-04-07, 10:33 AM	Ability Adjustments: -4 Strength, -2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom, +4 Charisma. Medium size Base Land Speed 30 feet Darkvision 60feet and low light vision Immune to magic sleep effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects. Automatic Languages: Common, Elven. Bonus Languages: Any. Favored Class: Any spellcaster. (Kiirnodel may have any class as their favored class, so long as it possesses some link to spell casting) Includes prestige classes that give spells per day as though you leveled in an older class. Special Ability Emerald FlameEmerald Flame needs some clarifications: >> What is the damage type? Every damage type can be blocked by something, including magic missiles (force effect stopped by Shield). But without a damage type, there's no stopping it. That makes it lethal to anything with low hitpoints (possibly including incorporeal creatures). >> Does it allow saving throws? If so, what's the result (negate/half/other) of a successful save? What type of save (if any) does it allow? Is there an attack roll? Does it allow spell resistance? >> Using 9th-level spells as an example is bad. By the time they have 9th level spells to burn, they're at the last stage of the ability. Using 9th level spells as a power example at the earlier stages, when they can't possibly have 9th levels spells, just makes the ability confusing. Try this text: Emerald Flame (Su): Members of this race with spellcaster class levels have the ability to channel magical energy of any kind into missiles of pure magical force. To use this ability, a prepared caster must drop one of his prepared spells, or a spontaneous caster must expend one of his spell slots, as if he had cast a spell of the chosen level. Using this ability takes a standard action, and provokes attacks of opportunity as if casting a spell. Only one spell or spell slot may be channeled into this ability at one time. (They may not, for example, drop 3 third-level spells to use the ability as a 9th-level spell.) The energy from the dropped spell/slot is channeled into a force effect that is identical to Magic Missile, with the following exceptions: >> The ability produces only a single force missile. This means that a single use of this ability affects only one target. >> The damage of the force missile equals 1d4 per spell level (SL) expended. This damage increases based on the caster's hit dice (HD), changing to 1d6/SL at 4HD, 2d4/SL at 8HD, 2d6/SL at 12HD, 2d8/SL at 16HD, and 3d6/SL at 20HD. If you like this design, we can determine an appropriate level adjustment. Using the posted abilities (quoted at top) with the revised special ability description would probably be LA+1. On another note, the flavor text (what little there is) needs some major help. For one, a charisma bonus doesn't make them "knowledgeable". Intelligence makes them "smart", a wisdom bonus makes them "practical", and a charisma bonus makes them "self-confident". Bonuses to their knowledge skills would make them "knowledgeable". For another, these things really don't strike me as related to D&D humans or elves in any way other than the borrowed minor benefits from the elven racial traits. They bare some remote resemblance in concept to the elves of norse mythology, which would be some kind of fey in D&D. 27D6?!?!?!? Seriously? That's stronger than ANY 9th level spell, other than save or die. No it isn't. Most spells deal damage based on caster level (as opposed to fixed damage by spell level). The 6th-level spell Disintegrate deals 40d6 by caster level 20. However, there are a lot of ways around the damage from Disintegrate (the ranged touch attack could miss, SR could negate all damage, or a fortitude save negates all but 5d6 damage), whereas the description of this ability doesn't leave many ways to avoid the damage.
Pfisiar 06-04-07, 12:27 PM	The Emerald flame ability still seems rather too strong for my taste. Perhaps there should be a restriction on it where you can only cast it X times a day where X is the caster level.
Otto the Bugbear 06-04-07, 12:27 PM	Reduce the modifiers to one negative, one positive. I think it'd be neat if the player could choose where to put the negative in physical and the positive in mental. This could allow you to keep the emerald flame ability while not getting more than a +1 LA. This is a good idea. Emerald Flame (Su): Members of this race with spellcaster class levels have the ability to channel magical energy of any kind into missiles of pure magical force. To use this ability, a prepared caster must drop one of his prepared spells, or a spontaneous caster must expend one of his spell slots, as if he had cast a spell of the chosen level. Using this ability takes a standard action, and provokes attacks of opportunity as if casting a spell. Only one spell or spell slot may be channeled into this ability at one time. (They may not, for example, drop 3 third-level spells to use the ability as a 9th-level spell.) The energy from the dropped spell/slot is channeled into a force effect that is identical to Magic Missile, with the following exceptions: >> The ability produces only a single force missile. This means that a single use of this ability affects only one target. >> The damage of the force missile equals 1d4 per spell level (SL) expended. This damage increases based on the caster's hit dice (HD), changing to 1d6/SL at 4HD, 2d4/SL at 8HD, 2d6/SL at 12HD, 2d8/SL at 16HD, and 3d6/SL at 20HD. This is also a good start, but still too much damage for +1 LA. So it depends upon if the OP wants to get it down to +1 LA or not.
YabaTheWhat 06-04-07, 01:50 PM	This is also a good start, but still too much damage for +1 LA. So it depends upon if the OP wants to get it down to +1 LA or not. Keep in mind that he gives up a spell each time he uses it. Giving up a 9th-level spell, even for 27d6 damage to an opponent, means you're sacrificing something huge to get it. Let's compare it to two other 9th-level spells: meteor swarm and shapechange. >> Meteor swarm, dropped on a single target, deals 32d6 damge (3/4 fire, 1/4 bludgeoning) with no save (SR still applies), plus any other targets within 40 ft take 24d6 fire damage (reflex save for half). >> Shapechange gives you all the EX and SU abilities of any non-unique form with up to your hit dice, along with most of the other benefits of those forms (such as SR, natural AC, physical abilities, etc). Become a beholder (eye beams including Disintegrate useable once/round each), then switch at your convenience to something completely different (like an angel or demon, complete with a full gambit of bonuses and resistances). It's not even a one-time attack, as the spell lasts for somewhere around three hours. Is this ability tactically potent? Sure it is. It makes sure that prepared casters always have a handy magic attack (unless their opponents start wearing broaches of shielding), so they can afford to use spell slots (or spells known) on utilities (like Knock). But it doesn't actually increase the power of a spellcaster.
Otto the Bugbear 06-04-07, 07:21 PM	I understand what it does, and what the implications are. With the suggestion by Pfisiar -- to make the race a floating -2 to one physical stat and +2 to one mental stat -- plus the other stuff -- Medium size Base Land Speed 30 feet Darkvision 60feet and low light vision Immune to magic sleep effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects. Automatic Languages: Common, Elven. Bonus Languages: Any. Favored Class: Any spellcaster. (Kiirnodel may have any class as their favored class, so long as it possesses some link to spell casting) Includes prestige classes that give spells per day as though you leveled in an older class. Plus your version of the Emerald Flame ability -- Emerald Flame (Su): Members of this race with spellcaster class levels have the ability to channel magical energy of any kind into missiles of pure magical force. To use this ability, a prepared caster must drop one of his prepared spells, or a spontaneous caster must expend one of his spell slots, as if he had cast a spell of the chosen level. Using this ability takes a standard action, and provokes attacks of opportunity as if casting a spell. Only one spell or spell slot may be channeled into this ability at one time. (They may not, for example, drop 3 third-level spells to use the ability as a 9th-level spell.) The energy from the dropped spell/slot is channeled into a force effect that is identical to Magic Missile, with the following exceptions: >> The ability produces only a single force missile. This means that a single use of this ability affects only one target. >> The damage of the force missile equals 1d4 per spell level (SL) expended. This damage increases based on the caster's hit dice (HD), changing to 1d6/SL at 4HD, 2d4/SL at 8HD, 2d6/SL at 12HD, 2d8/SL at 16HD, and 3d6/SL at 20HD. would make it more than +1 LA. I'd put it at a strong +2 LA now, instead of the +3 I was heavily leaning toward earlier.
Rustmonster 06-04-07, 08:16 PM	No it isn't. Most spells deal damage based on caster level (as opposed to fixed damage by spell level). The 6th-level spell Disintegrate deals 40d6 by caster level 20. However, there are a lot of ways around the damage from Disintegrate (the ranged touch attack could miss, SR could negate all damage, or a fortitude save negates all but 5d6 damage), whereas the description of this ability doesn't leave many ways to avoid the damage. Opps, forgot to take that into account. I'm still not entirely sure giving a spell like this as a class feature would be appropriate, at least without LA. I'm also pretty sure that giving these kinds of ability bonuses and penalties(ie, tons) is going to make the race VERY narrow in play, as they can only be used effectivly as spell casters. This could make them rather boring to play.
YabaTheWhat 06-04-07, 10:03 PM	Pure casting classes make up about a third of the total playable classes (excluding psionics). Provided its level adjustment isn't run through the roof, this race could be used for any of them. Given any LA at all (let's say LA+1), it won't be abused, because the caster gives up a level of his or her spellcasting class in exchange for a single form of added versatility (like druid summoning or cleric healing, only this one deals damage). They get bonuses to all three mental ability scores, but the only one significant enough to outclass an elf is the charisma bonus (and casting ability only benefits from one of the three bonuses for any given class). They'd make good clerics or druids, because those classes don't normally get much in the way of direct damage spells. (Clerics end up on the front line in small parties due to their high AC. The same goes for druids once they get their wildshape ability.) They'd make decent sorcerers, with an overall DC+1 on their spells (of which they get less due to being a level behind), but the special ability doesn't mean a whole lot. Wizards get a bit of added versatility, but the cost to them might outweigh the benefits. With a level adjustment of +2, even a charisma-based caster would lose far more spells from the lost levels than they'd gain back in bonus spells, and they'd take penalties to AC, HP, and their two already-weak saves. The versatility won't help them much, because they'll already be struggling with a shortage of spells. Being two caster levels behind means that a spell for this race would need to rival a spell one level higher, as cast by someone two levels higher. Considering that the only time their special ability breaks even (vs arcane spells) is against opponents with resistances, the odds of equating to a higher-level spell are pretty slim. Reducing the damage of the ability any further would make it useless, because as already demonstrated, existing arcane spells beat it pretty effectively. Similarly, setting the LA too high makes the ability nearly useless, as the caster couldn't afford the loss of overall power. Perhaps the versatility could be curbed by allowing spell resistance or giving the damage an energy type other than force (thus distancing it from magic missiles), if the potency of the ability is a major concern.
YabaTheWhat 06-04-07, 11:05 PM	Time to see what happens when I apply my own numbers system (feature points). Ability Adjustments: -4 Strength, -2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom, +4 Charisma. [-5-3-3+4+4+9+3h = 9 FP] Medium size [0 FP] Base Land Speed 30 feet [0 FP] Darkvision 60 [3 FP] feet and low light vision [1 FP] Immune to magic sleep effects [3 FP], and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects. [2 FP] Automatic Languages: Common, Elven. Bonus Languages: Any. Favored Class: Any spellcaster. A Kiirnodel's highest-level spellcasting class becomes her favored class, and does not count when determining if she should suffer experience penalties for multiclassing. [0.5 FP] Special Ability Emerald Flame [28.3 FP (see below)] Total = 47 FP, LA +2 underpowered (low border). I calculated their special ability as being one extra spell known (as per sorcerer spells) at each spell level, gained when spells of that level are gained. Since there's no direct value for an extra spell known, I treated it as equal to an extra SLA once per day. For every 2 levels a feature is delayed, its value is multiplied by 2/3. Therefore, even though a higher-level spell is worth more, getting a higher-level spell after waiting to reach an appropriate class level is actually worth less. This means that, overall, this race is too powerful for LA+1, but too weak for LA+2... which fits pretty well with the combination of perspectives expressed thus far. Reducing the charisma bonus to +2 would drop 8FP from its value, bringing it solidly into LA+1 range.
HVK 06-05-07, 01:59 AM	Yabathewhat, I like you're idea for the emerald flame ability, and the reason for their ability adjustments is it's a specific clan, think about it, if all you're ancestors were frail, clumsy, and weak, but intelligent, handsome, and had good common sense, wouldn't you be the same? They are meant to be sorcerers, that's why they have the emerald flame, a natural talent if they cast spells, playing them as a fighter would make it pointless. Apparently trying to make a special race due to backgrounds is far more difficult than I originally expected. I understand the power of the bonuses, but are the penalties lowering the LA at all?
Otto the Bugbear 06-05-07, 07:15 AM	There's a draconic heritage feat that allows the expenditure of spells to use for a breath weapon. For the cost of a feat, the character can get a 30 ft. cone or a 60 ft. line to deal 2d6 damage / spell level. You may be right Yaba. And HVK, if they're meant to be sorcerers, just make them sorcerers. Favored Class: Sorcerer and make Emerald Flame only work with spontaneous casters. Kiirnodel This is an Elf/Human, with more human than Elf. Ability Adjustments: -2 to any physical ability score (Str, Dex or Con), +2 to any mental ability score (Int, Wis or Cha). They're frail, but very knowledgable. Medium size Base Land Speed 30 feet Darkvision 60 ft. and low light vision Immune to magic sleep effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects. Automatic Languages: Common, Elven. Bonus Languages: Any. Favored Class: Sorcerer Emerald Flame (Su): Members of this race with spontaneous casting class levels have the ability to channel magical energy of any kind into missiles of pure magical force. To use this ability a spontaneous caster must expend one of his spell slots, as if he had cast a spell of the chosen level. Using this ability takes a standard action, and provokes attacks of opportunity as if casting a spell. Only one spell or spell slot may be channeled into this ability at one time. (They may not, for example, drop 3 third-level spells to use the ability as a 9th-level spell.) The energy from the dropped spell/slot is channeled into a force effect that is identical to Magic Missile, with the following exceptions: >> The ability produces only a single force missile. This means that a single use of this ability affects only one target. >> The damage of the force missile equals 1d4 per spell level (SL) expended. This damage increases based on the caster's hit dice (HD), changing to 1d6/SL at 4HD, 2d4/SL at 8HD, 2d6/SL at 12HD, 2d8/SL at 16HD, and 3d6/SL at 20HD. Level Adjustment: +1
YabaTheWhat 06-05-07, 07:44 AM	Yabathewhat, I like you're idea for the emerald flame ability, and the reason for their ability adjustments is it's a specific clan, think about it, if all you're ancestors were frail, clumsy, and weak, but intelligent, handsome, and had good common sense, wouldn't you be the same? They are meant to be sorcerers, that's why they have the emerald flame, a natural talent if they cast spells, playing them as a fighter would make it pointless. Apparently trying to make a special race due to backgrounds is far more difficult than I originally expected. I understand the power of the bonuses, but are the penalties lowering the LA at all? As a rule, bonuses are worth more than penalties. Why? Because races will fill roles that work towards their strengths and avoid their weaknesses. While penalties do reduce the race's value, penalties that mirror bonuses do not cancel out. The bigger the bonus, the more it's worth, while the bigger the penalty, the less it matters. With regards to pigeonholing, being useful for 1/3 of all classes isn't bad, so long as the race isn't replacing a core race. Being pigeonholed into one or two classes is bad. Given the choice, it's better to make a playable race less powerful and more versatile, rather than the other way around. If you're making a monster and playability is only a secondary concern, then pigeonholing works because players will expect most of them to have the same class (see: orc). If you mean for them to be sorcerers, then set their favored class to sorcerers, rather than all/any spellcasters. Members of the race can still take non-sorcerer classes. They simply can't take multiple non-sorcerer classes. Honestly, for these guys to multiclass at all would only work as a detriment, so favored class will rarely if ever come into play.
HVK 06-05-07, 07:59 AM	Should I increase the penalties then? LA at all tends to make a race less useful, and overall less desired, the only problem I've noticed is, the only penalty in a race I've seen is light sensitivity and penalties to ability scores. Is there anyway to keep 2 +2 modifiers, the emerald flame ability, without an LA?
YabaTheWhat 06-05-07, 08:28 AM	Should I increase the penalties then? LA at all tends to make a race less useful, and overall less desired, the only problem I've noticed is, the only penalty in a race I've seen is light sensitivity and penalties to ability scores. Is there anyway to keep 2 +2 modifiers, the emerald flame ability, without an LA? Unless you modify Emerald Flame to the point where the ability isn't actually useful, then no. Giving a creature a -50 penalty to strength is exactly the same as giving it a -6 penalty to strength. It just gives players a place to tuck away their lowest roll. Any non-ability penalty big enough to fully counterbalance the Emerald Flame ability would be too crippling for a playable race. The closest you could get is something like the Deep Imaskari (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003b)'s spell clutch. If you're willing to accept LA+1, then it's a lot easier. They can keep +2 to all three mental abilities (reduce the +4 on charisma) and their existing benefits and penalties.
HVK 06-06-07, 12:24 AM	Well I guess LA +1 isn't as bad as +2, alright then thank you all.
Korlall 06-06-07, 12:48 AM	I guess this is one of the best race for druid. Since by level 8, Druid can wild shape 3/day for 8 hours each, this means a druid can be wildshaped 24/24... The character just have to make his stats with low physical and high mental... try to survive until level 8 and then, it can make a powerful character. Using buypoint 25pts, you make place your stats like: Str 8 Dex 8 Con 8 Int 15 Wis 15 Cha 15 With stats adjustments, it means : Str 4 Dex 6 Con 6 Int 17 Wis 15 Cha 19 You stick with a group in order to survive... and then, at level 8, you wild shape 24/24 as a bear and tada : Str 27 (+8) Dex 13 (+1) Con 15 (+2) Int 17 (+3) Wis 15 (+2) Cha 19 (+4) Quite powerful for a nonequiped character. Plus, you can cast spell using Nature spell feat. I must specify I replied that without really checking how the wildshpaed really works... It just pop of mind mind...