Possible solution for LA+1 Races? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Possible solution for LA+1 Races? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Potato_Dragon
06-18-07, 03:45 AM The problem with LAs greater than 0 is that it is seems like most of the time, it's only balanced for the middle levels. At the lowest levels, the lower HP makes things dicey, at and the higher levels, the racial bonuses often seem trivial compared to the loss of the next level's (or the next or two or three level's) class abilities. I'm not sure how to fix the upper end without making a mess of things. However, I came up with something that should probably work for balancing out the lower end, at least for LA+1 creatures with no racial hit dice.

At 1st level, play the race as if it were LA+0, except remove the feat you gain for being 1st level and calculate their skill points as if their level were 0 (but still keep the max skill ranks as if they were 1st).

At 2nd level, instead of gaining a class level, gain the skill points and feat that were lost at 1st level, plus 3 hit points (much as if they had gained the toughness feat).

At 3rd level, gain a class level as normal.

At 4th-6th level, gain a class level, but lose 1 hp (this can result in gaining no hp for that level).

Above 6th, advance as normal.

It also might work for medium or small monsters with LA+1 and 2-3 racial HD: Reduce their racial ability bonuses by 2 or 4 points respectively, add them back at 2nd (and 3rd if necessary) as they gain their monster HD back, regain the feat, skills, and get +3 hp at 3rd or 4th, then at 5th/6th-7th/8th lose those bonus hp. If the monsters have natural AC they should also lose an amount equal to their racial HD (but not more than enough to reduce it below 1) and gain them back at 1 per level.

Example of above: A bugbear starts out with 1 racial HD, +2 str, +2 dex, -2 cha, 1 natural AC, less skill points, no 1st-level feat. At 2nd, it gets another HD, +2 con, +1 AC. At 3rd it gets the 3rd level feat, +1 HD, +2 str, +1 AC. At 4th it gets +3 hp and the missing feat and skill points. At 5th+ It advances as normal, except losing 1 hp at levels 6th to 8th.

This "temporary toughness" is only meant to apply to PCs (they're special), but you could use it on classed NPC monsters with the elite array without throwing their CR out of whack. Probably. I don't think it would work that well with LA+2 or higher races, and I'm not sure about monsters that have 4 or more racial HD.

Any opinions?
runestar
06-18-07, 06:32 AM I think it was once mentioned that LA is meant to immediately penalize powerful races for the abilities they could access, over and above what typical LA+0 races were normally accrued.

Thus, the difference between races should be the biggest at lower lvs (particularly at the beginning), and therefore, the impact of LA should be the greatest at this interval. This is why LA is typically a flat numerical value, rather than some sort of percentile xp penalty (which cannot properly reflect the weight of the special abilities granted for its LA).

However, I agree that there is a problem in that quite a number of LA+1 races are not worth their LA at all, such as the assimar, genasi etc. In this case, I think they can be allowed as LA+0 either by using the lesser planetouched variant in PGTF or just removing their 1st lv feat. As for other stronger LA+1 races such as goliath or half-minotaur, I would say that they are fine as they are. Maybe allow the LA buyoff variant.:)

As of the moment, I cannot accurately gauge the significance of the changes you have made. You appear to be effectively spreading out the stuff lost due to that 1 LA (lower max skill ranks, lesser hp etc) over a few lvs, rather than having the player suck it up all at one go. It does not seem like a bad concept, but appears somewhat complex (unnecessarily).
Maraxus
06-18-07, 07:29 AM A monster fighter is getting better and better at high levels. The only problem is, that caster/monster characters are getting more and more behind.
In the early levels they can use both, later the monster abilities are quite meaningless and the spells are still to much behind to really be good.
-> Most monsters synergise well with fighters and bad with casters.

I think a way to add aditional "+Spellcasting level" (like on PrCs) could be useful. As a rough rule of thump, I'd say, that a caster class could get +1 spellcasting for every 2 levels in the acording class, he has, - to a maximum of 1/2 his (Racial HDs + LA).

Thus, a Svefneblin (LA +4) would get an additional Spellcasting Level (spells per day, caster level), when taking his second and forth Wizard level.

This however does not help a lot on LA+1 races. One could make it, that at some point (like Class level 4), you get a free spellcasting, effectivly trading the race's abilities for 1d4 HP, 2+ skills, 1/2 BAB and maybe a little save-bonus. While this looks fair and balanced for Genasi, I fear, it might lead to an unhealy high number of Half Giant Wizards and Sorcerers.
But here the diffrence in Power level among LA1ers is the big problem anyway and I'd say, one can give one racial caster level on a case-to-case basis.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Potato_Dragon 06-18-07, 03:45 AM	The problem with LAs greater than 0 is that it is seems like most of the time, it's only balanced for the middle levels. At the lowest levels, the lower HP makes things dicey, at and the higher levels, the racial bonuses often seem trivial compared to the loss of the next level's (or the next or two or three level's) class abilities. I'm not sure how to fix the upper end without making a mess of things. However, I came up with something that should probably work for balancing out the lower end, at least for LA+1 creatures with no racial hit dice. At 1st level, play the race as if it were LA+0, except remove the feat you gain for being 1st level and calculate their skill points as if their level were 0 (but still keep the max skill ranks as if they were 1st). At 2nd level, instead of gaining a class level, gain the skill points and feat that were lost at 1st level, plus 3 hit points (much as if they had gained the toughness feat). At 3rd level, gain a class level as normal. At 4th-6th level, gain a class level, but lose 1 hp (this can result in gaining no hp for that level). Above 6th, advance as normal. It also might work for medium or small monsters with LA+1 and 2-3 racial HD: Reduce their racial ability bonuses by 2 or 4 points respectively, add them back at 2nd (and 3rd if necessary) as they gain their monster HD back, regain the feat, skills, and get +3 hp at 3rd or 4th, then at 5th/6th-7th/8th lose those bonus hp. If the monsters have natural AC they should also lose an amount equal to their racial HD (but not more than enough to reduce it below 1) and gain them back at 1 per level. Example of above: A bugbear starts out with 1 racial HD, +2 str, +2 dex, -2 cha, 1 natural AC, less skill points, no 1st-level feat. At 2nd, it gets another HD, +2 con, +1 AC. At 3rd it gets the 3rd level feat, +1 HD, +2 str, +1 AC. At 4th it gets +3 hp and the missing feat and skill points. At 5th+ It advances as normal, except losing 1 hp at levels 6th to 8th. This "temporary toughness" is only meant to apply to PCs (they're special), but you could use it on classed NPC monsters with the elite array without throwing their CR out of whack. Probably. I don't think it would work that well with LA+2 or higher races, and I'm not sure about monsters that have 4 or more racial HD. Any opinions?
runestar 06-18-07, 06:32 AM	I think it was once mentioned that LA is meant to immediately penalize powerful races for the abilities they could access, over and above what typical LA+0 races were normally accrued. Thus, the difference between races should be the biggest at lower lvs (particularly at the beginning), and therefore, the impact of LA should be the greatest at this interval. This is why LA is typically a flat numerical value, rather than some sort of percentile xp penalty (which cannot properly reflect the weight of the special abilities granted for its LA). However, I agree that there is a problem in that quite a number of LA+1 races are not worth their LA at all, such as the assimar, genasi etc. In this case, I think they can be allowed as LA+0 either by using the lesser planetouched variant in PGTF or just removing their 1st lv feat. As for other stronger LA+1 races such as goliath or half-minotaur, I would say that they are fine as they are. Maybe allow the LA buyoff variant.:) As of the moment, I cannot accurately gauge the significance of the changes you have made. You appear to be effectively spreading out the stuff lost due to that 1 LA (lower max skill ranks, lesser hp etc) over a few lvs, rather than having the player suck it up all at one go. It does not seem like a bad concept, but appears somewhat complex (unnecessarily).
Maraxus 06-18-07, 07:29 AM	A monster fighter is getting better and better at high levels. The only problem is, that caster/monster characters are getting more and more behind. In the early levels they can use both, later the monster abilities are quite meaningless and the spells are still to much behind to really be good. -> Most monsters synergise well with fighters and bad with casters. I think a way to add aditional "+Spellcasting level" (like on PrCs) could be useful. As a rough rule of thump, I'd say, that a caster class could get +1 spellcasting for every 2 levels in the acording class, he has, - to a maximum of 1/2 his (Racial HDs + LA). Thus, a Svefneblin (LA +4) would get an additional Spellcasting Level (spells per day, caster level), when taking his second and forth Wizard level. This however does not help a lot on LA+1 races. One could make it, that at some point (like Class level 4), you get a free spellcasting, effectivly trading the race's abilities for 1d4 HP, 2+ skills, 1/2 BAB and maybe a little save-bonus. While this looks fair and balanced for Genasi, I fear, it might lead to an unhealy high number of Half Giant Wizards and Sorcerers. But here the diffrence in Power level among LA1ers is the big problem anyway and I'd say, one can give one racial caster level on a case-to-case basis.