Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Half1337Dragons 01-10-07, 07:39 AM	How many of you allow players to form a half creature player. <Example: Half-Dragon or Half-Fiend> I noticed that many half creatures are broken beyond repair. <Example: Half-Dragon Barbarian, throw on some Admin. Armor..pretty cheep. Give the player a few items to fix his lack of saves and resistances. Make him large size so you can have wings, and you can take feats from the dragonic book to make him/her into a god. I love playing these things, but I think maybe the next monster manual should increase the neg. to these guys, the Half-Dragon alone is only -3 or -2 levels before you leave lv 1. IDK I may be just ranting also...
Witch 01-10-07, 07:50 AM	The Half-Dragon is underpowered. Remember, a level 1 Half-Dragon Barbarian is supposed to be equivalent to a level 4 Human Barbarian. My bet is that the level 4 will be more effective every time. The same goes for other creatures. You're likely just ranting. These creatures are not "broken beyond repair". You simply fail to see their flaws.
runestar 01-10-07, 07:54 AM	Your nick does not help in lending credence to your rant either...:P The half-dragon template is strong, but is tempered by the inclusion of a LA+3, which ensures that your half-dragon character will always be 3 class lvs behind. For every item you claim can help in mitigating this drawback, any other player can easily use said item as well. Likewise, if you are not large at the time of getting the template, you do not get wings. Even if you later become large, you still will not acquire wings. And large races are not without crippling LAs of their own. A half-dragon barb1 might have good stats, but a lucky crit still topples him over. Too risky. Maybe at higher lvs(lv10+), it would be worth it, when you have a firm foundation, but it is still hardly the heaven-shaking powerhouse you are making it out to be. In dnd, anything can be had, so long as you are willing to pay the price for it. Want to play a powerful race? Be prepared to suck up a high ECL for it. Such is the case for the half-dragon. Am I missing something out?
Half1337Dragons 01-10-07, 07:56 AM	more affective, look at the long run though, if you throw a lv 4 half-dragon barb vs a lv 8 barb, the dragon would pwn. he could just fly up in the air and use a composite long/short bow and just beat the **** out of the lv 8, on top of that his breath weapon...notice that this can also be done by idk lv 1 also. Look at the half-fiend, It's a casters worst nightmare at low lvls. Even in med. lvs they give casters problems, the sp. resistance, on top of all its benfits.
Witch 01-10-07, 07:58 AM	more affective, look at the long run though, if you throw a lv 4 half-dragon barb vs a lv 8 barb, the dragon would pwn. he could just fly up in the air and use a composite long/short bow and just beat the **** out of the lv 8, on top of that his breath weapon...notice that this can also be done by idk lv 1 also. And how, pray, would the half-dragon half-human dragon fly? And if the flying half-dragon is using the bow - why isn't the non-flying one using one?
CowMasterTrojan 01-10-07, 08:00 AM	The half-dragon isnt as overpowered as you seem to think. They're severely gimped in the early levels because of their large LA, so even if you utilize the +8 STR bonus you still have problems standing toe-to-toe with things because one good hit could bring you down. However, barbarian is probally the best substitute for this I suppose. Regardless, if you choose any other class it becomes obvious the HP they suffer until higher levels. And your point of getting wings seems to be confused. You can't just become large without jacking up your LA by at least +1. (Enlarge person? I don't think so. That only effects humanoids and you're a freakin dragon) This only furthers the HP problems they face, and it makes them easier to hit. Not to mention that that means you are a minimum of LA+4, which means your party is level 5. At level 5 a wizard now has access to fly so it instantly becomes less of problem. Don't forget that you're a feat behind everyone else too. When the half-dragon gets to higher levels (level 10 or so) they don't suffer from HP problems as much, but their breath weapon has now become useless because everyone can make the save and it doesnt do much damage anyway. Don't forget that if the Half-dragon is playing their favored class, the sorcerer, you are 2 spell levels behind your equal level wizard. So yeah, I'm against a bigger LA for the half-dragon. I love the race and would like to play one, but everytime I try I get put off by the gimp they call a LA. I've never had a character or run a character that was half-celestial/devil, but I always wondered how that would go considering the LA is so huge. I doubt I'd find it overpowered.
Half1337Dragons 01-10-07, 08:06 AM	if you make a half-dragon large size they get wings thats how it flys. Anyways I think that most half-creatures are overpowered, I can make characters that easily over power half-dragons, mostly assassin characters.
Orchomenos 01-10-07, 08:08 AM	And beside the half-ogre (ECL +1), all the large size creatures have titanesque ECL, making the creature even worse. But it's unsure if the same creature could be half-ogre AND half-dragon, somewhere, there's too many halves! For example, an Ogre as 4 HD and +2 Level Adjustment; adding the +3 LA from half-dragon, your ogre half-dragon is equivalent to a 9th level barbarian or paladin. Yeah, he will have a +9 Natural Armor Bonus and a seductive +18 STR, but abysmal saves and even with the +6 CON and increase HD, very low HP. Give the player a few items to fix his lack of saves and resistances. Give the 9th barbarian or paladin the sames items, and he will be invincible when the half-dragon will be just correct.
Witch 01-10-07, 08:08 AM	if you make a half-dragon large size they get wings thats how it flys How do you make it large?
Half1337Dragons 01-10-07, 08:15 AM	It says in creation of a Half-Dragon in the Monster Manual that you can make a half-dragon large size and not normal size, it even shows the different in its damage from its claw attacks. To find this, Look under Speed in Half-dragon creation. It states it there.
Witch 01-10-07, 08:20 AM	Speed A half-dragon that is Large or larger has wings and can fly at twice its base land speed (maximum 120 ft.) with average maneuverability. A half-dragon that is Medium or smaller does not have wings. That's all I see. Nowhere does it say you can just arbitrarily make it large. This requires the base creature to already be large - and those creatures generally have a high level adjustment or racial hit dice.
Half1337Dragons 01-10-07, 08:27 AM	well yes, I understand that. But if you did make that level adjust, it becomes useful in the long run...But I prefer, if using wings to go as a grappling half-fiend. One it has wings at start and its always fun to make it disarm and grapple people. Then fly them off a cliff or attempt to fly up and let them fall, after all that is how we seriously damaged a blue dragon by having our caster cast ... I forgot its name, but basically it was an invisible wall that the dragon flew into and fell down to the ground taking damage.
Witch 01-10-07, 08:29 AM	That all sounds very interesting, but you haven't given a single argument as to why the Half-Dragon would be overpowered for its level adjustment.
Half1337Dragons 01-10-07, 08:40 AM	I'm not saying that Half-dragons are over powered, I think that Most Half Creatures are overpowered. I was only using Half-Dragon as an example since everyone knows what a half-dragon is incase beginners read this.
Witch 01-10-07, 08:42 AM	You've not given any arguments about other half-creatures either. Specify which one is overpowered, and why.
Half1337Dragons 01-10-07, 08:50 AM	I'v never really played much of the half-creatures cause I dont like to wait on lv adjustments..but from what other people I'v played with say is that they can take creatures and just abuse them like no other. I think what I also want to know is what kind of half-creatures are needed a power limit?
runestar 01-10-07, 09:03 AM	I think what I also want to know is what kind of half-creatures are needed a power limit? Basically all of them. They have impressive stats, yes, but equally crippling LAs to match. The end result is that they are still no more powerful than a pure-class build of the same ECL. And I echo Witch's earlier statement. A half-dragon that did not start out with wings will not suddenly get them if he becomes large later on. Even if you houserule that they did, you still have the problem of making them large. Enlarge person works only on humanoids and righteous magic can only be cast by clerics. Fastest way I can see is to slap the half-dragon template onto the half-ogre race. But that comes with a hefty LA+5 tag. A barb6 will have no problem shredding a half ogre/half-dragon barb1 to bits with a bow, or he can always quaff a potion of fly. Your points still aren't being properly substantiated.
Renzor 01-10-07, 09:30 AM	I haven't seen too much trouble with people using half-templates or even true monsters in any games. In general, the racial abilities and defenses seem nifty but is often offset by the fact that anything opponent that gets past them can very quickly mow your character down due to your lack of hitpoints and underdeveloped class abilities compared to those party members playing base races. I find them best for playing spellcasters, as they usually get good mental modifiers from thier templates and are often in the far back of the fight to avoid damage anyway, but as others said even then the level adjustment still stings very badly. Energy resistance 10 and damage reduction 4/whatever doesn't look as great as it did before when the enemy hits you for 30+ damage and you're 2-4 levels in hp behind everyone else.
willvr 01-10-07, 10:03 AM	I had a player play a half-dragon once. It was high-level; and he just about overcame the low HD issue - but he was far from overpowering. The dwarven monk who stacked up on potions of enlarge was worse; as was the half-elven fighter/rogue/ranger/Holy Liberator.
DwarfPcfan 01-10-07, 10:08 AM	Anything beyond LA +2 is usually not worth the salt for it. Half-Dragons with equal equipment will have lesser saves, less, Hp, less everything. A good Paladin, Fighter or Barbarian will look at that half-Dragon, who be worst in everything except ability scores, and laugh. Half-Dragon Barbarian:" Good day, ready for our friendly duel" Human Fighter:"Quite, Quite my friend, I've been perfecting this technique I'm dying to try out" HalfDragon: " As Agreed, we will start at ten paces to give a chance to take full advantage of our mobility" human Fighter:"Of Course, We don't whant to impair each other do we" Both" Ready, DRAW!" SLACK!, BAM!, CRASH! HalF-Dragon:"WTF happenned, It just feltlike a meteorite hit me, what did you do?" Human Fighter" UH, Power attack, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper with Elven Courtblade 1d10+7+38 Why ?" Half-Dragon:" Well good Show then! Now Help me up, I can't feel my lower body anymore" Human Fighter:"O.K, Wanna go grab a beer?" Half-Dragon:" Naw i'll pass, say no any good clerics around?"
highbulp 01-10-07, 10:15 AM	For the sake of argument, let's say by some fluke you get a flying half-dragon barbarian with the +3 LA. So you are three levels behind an equivalent barbarian, but with an extra +8 strength. Let's also assume that both barbarians have bows which can take full advantage of their strength. So you're doing an extra +4dmg a round against the barbarian. The barbarian is level X, you are level X-3. The barbarian has an average of X*6.5+(X*CON) HP, you have an average of (X-3)*6.5+((X-3)*(CON+1)). Simplifying, you have X*7.5-20.5+(X*CON)-3*CON. So he has 20.5+3*CON-X more HP than you. To add numbers, assuming he has a +3 CON raged and he is level 10, you have 20.5+9-10=19 less HP. So you do 4 more damage a round than him. But that evens out after 5 rounds because he has about 20HP more than you. So you have to hope he isn't doing a 1/5th your HP in damage every round, or you lose.
Necropolitan 01-10-07, 03:35 PM	Eh. Half-Critters are usually too crippled by the LA to be TPK monsters, but there are some fun builds. I sort of like Half-Dragon, Half Goliath Frenzied Berskerker. Powerful Build, Leap attack and Frenzy with Mountain Movement and the Dragon's resistences and such. Much love.
Tevin Kevlak 01-10-07, 04:00 PM	Just FYI the Half-Ogre has been changed in 3.5 to have a level adjustment of +2 instead of the insanely laughable +1 from 3e. Therefore, in order to make a flying half-dragon you have an LA of +5. So playtest a level 6 Human Barbarian against your ECL 6 Half-Dragon Half-Ogre and come back and tell us if you still think they're "god-like". The Human Barbarian would kill the Half-Dragon in one round in melee and probably 2 rounds for ranged combat (due to him being able to make 4 attacks in that time) while the half-ogre half-dragon will be hard presed to take the human down to half hit points with a bow in that time. Not to mention your half-orgre half-dragon will only have 3 attacks at level 20 while the human barbarian has 4. Sure the Half-Dragon can make a bite attack in addition to the rest of his attacks making him technically have 4 attacks aswell but you need to ask yourself what's better an attack with a d8 bite attack or another attack with your +5 Flaming Burst, Shocking Burst, Keen Greatsword?
Dracspero 01-10-07, 04:25 PM	Bah, forget the wings. Half-Dragon Halfling Rogue all the way, baby. ;-)
willvr 01-10-07, 04:33 PM	What exactly is the base creature though? Both half-ogre and half-dragon are templates to be added on to a base creature. No DM is going to let you add two half- templates to a base creature. Take human for example - that'd be 1/2 dragon, 1/2 ogre, 1/2 human. That's 3/2s. The half-breeds are good; don't get me wrong. But they're /far/ from overpowering. For pure power, I would never take anything beyond /maybe/ ECL +1.
Witch 01-10-07, 04:44 PM	Both half-ogre and half-dragon are templates to be added on to a base creature. No, they're not. Half-Ogre, like Half-Orc, is a race. Not a template.
Fallenangel359 01-11-07, 12:46 PM	probably the most abusive racial template I've ever seen was shade...
KINGGEO1302 01-11-07, 03:16 PM	My favorite builds are half-dragon kobolds, and lizardfolk. If you play to their strengths they become dangerous. They are not gods my any means. A LA to me is a challange to see how to keep up with "stronger" pure characters. and for those half-dragons with 6HD or more a must is Dragon Breath, use breath weapon every 1d4 rounds, and as for the save for the breath. It improves with every HD you get, I know some will object to this, but every half-draon example I've seen accounts in class level HD. even a save for half damage is still better than most bows.
willvr 01-11-07, 04:11 PM	Some things specify racial HD - like for example; the boost to the HD a 1/2 dragon gets. If it doesn't; I'm reasonably sure class levels count.
Onelostviking 06-27-07, 10:06 PM	someone had mentioned not seeing any half celestial/fiends in play I have played a half fiend archer in a carceri based game, those resistances saved my ass through all the natural perils(acid rain, stinging desert sand etc). the stat bonuses lent very well to qualifying for most feats pre req's, and having spell resist made that bastard necromancer think twice before trying his hand at those death spells he had with my name on them in conclusion not overpowered or broken but very usefull in the right situations(like traveling the planes) also if you have another race template you can get mad skill points on even a low skill pt race
Omega_Grey 06-28-07, 02:10 AM	Like Onelostviking, I too played a half-fiend once. It lasted maybe four sessions before my DM got tired of almost killing myself and his brother (also a half-fiend) in every fight with things that were, on paper, well within our capabilities to fight. Its not that Dave and I were stupid players, its just that we had never had the opportunity to play this sort of character before and didnt quite know how to play to our advantages all the way. And yes, I was a Half-Fiend/Half-Human Fighter with a Longbow and Dave was a Half-Fiend/Half-Human Wizard and that still didnt make or break the game (stupid enclosed areas).
AMGriffin 06-28-07, 03:49 AM	I'm going to skip all these posts and say my simple half-dragon fix. Give them wings no matter what, a breath weapon that scales based on their ECL, bump the CON and INT bonuses up to +4, and then give them one Dragon racial HD. Kbye.