Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ShanxAlot 08-20-07, 08:07 PM	Ok we here's my idea for a Powerfull Build Halfling, let me know what you think. As it stands I'm think LA +1 or maybe Racial HD.(The entire idea of a LA just seems odd IMHO)[will update as I get the last few things set] I'm probably mistaken but I thought there was a Halfling race that had Powerful Build, can anyone please verify(was pretty sure it originated/was based out of Eberron)? I spent the last 3 hours digging through all my books, my buddy's books and several years of notes on various races trying to figure out if I saw it in a book or if it was just something I read on a board posting. ____Ironfist Halfling____ These hearty and kind Halflings love nothing more then a good tussle. Often found challenging foes far larger then themselves they never backdown without giving it a shot. Typically seen as wild or even savage in truth the Ironfist clan prioritizes manners and honor above all else. Personality: Quite different from most of their Kin a Ironfist prefers to stay a little more reserved, polite to a fault and rarely shying away from lending a helping hand the only thing they like better is a good brawl. Cursed by a constant wanderlust they maintain their close knit family units and value kinship above all else. Physical Description: Like their Kin the Ironfists stand around 3ft tall, however this is where the general likeness ends. Often mistaken for a small dwarf Ironfists usually weigh around 55-65 pounds from their sturdy and muscular build. There skin if often on the Tan side as they prefer the outdoors, their hair while often rustled is typically well kept and of the darker colors. Unlike their kin their sideburns often aren’t that long and beards are slightly more common. They are often found wearing light clothes of pastel colors to help keep cool and allow for maximum flexibility. Relationships: In general Ironfists are regarded just as any other of their kind, though their build makes them easy to distinguish and more often then not their desire for a scrap makes them a little less liked amongst keepers of the peace and barkeeps Alignment: Ironfist’s are often Nuetral Good. They often have disagreements about some rules of Civilization in regards to fighting and honor but never wish to cause much a stir as they’re more often visitors then residents. Their close knit family circles due tend to help with enforcing more lawful behavior but the difference between city laws and clan laws often stop this from being a common trait. Ironfist Lands: Ironfist clansmen usually own very little outside of the necessity’s and this includes land. Typically living in a family caravan or out of a bag they have no land to call home. There are long term encampments here and there that shift ever so slightly with the seasons but few permanent encampments. The few cities that do exist rarely house more then 2 family units and are almost exclusively nothing more then a homestead located just off a major trade route. Religion: Like most Halflings Yondalla is the primary deity with most family units having at least 1 Cleric or Paladin of Yondalla. As wanderers they also recognize many of the smaller gods. Unlike most others of their Kin however both Helm and Tempus are not uncommon deities of worship in many family units. Language: Ironfists often stick to either the Trade Tongue(Common) or the language of their kin. Unlike others of their kind written records are not as uncommon and are often written in a style that can only be read/interpreted by another of the family. ___Ironfist Racial Traits___ • +2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Wis: Ironfist are Strong and Sturdy however they lack the conventional sense to avoid taking on more then they can handle. • Small: As a Small creature, an Ironfist gains a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus of Hide Checks, but they use smaller weapons then humans and their lifting capacity is three-quarters of those of a medium character. • Ironfist base land speed is 20 feet. • +2 racial bonus on Climb and Jump checks: Ironfists are both Surefooted and Athletic. • Powerful Build: The physical stature of an Ironfist lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger. Whenever an Ironfist is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the ironfist is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him. An Ironfist is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attack based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can effect him. An ironfist can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of their actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subjects size category. • Automatic Languages: Common and Halfling. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, and Orc. • Favored Class: Fighter. A multiclass ironfist’s fighter class does not count when determining whether they take an experience point penalty for multiclassing.
Dragonprime 08-20-07, 09:07 PM	*Looks in books* I can't find any. This might be in some forgotten 3.0 book. Who knows?
ShanxAlot 08-20-07, 09:25 PM	*Looks in books* I can't find any. This might be in some forgotten 3.0 book. Who knows? Checked quite a Few but couldn't find anything >.< Guess I'll try to slap one together and see what my DM thinks...
locustechpriest 08-20-07, 09:26 PM	I don't mean to hijack this topic, but I have a question about powerful build. According to it's wording, as an ability (I don't know about the feat), it doesn't seem to qualify you for size requirements of feats or PrC's. Is this true? Is the feat different?
ShanxAlot 08-20-07, 09:34 PM	I don't mean to hijack this topic, but I have a question about powerful build. According to it's wording, as an ability (I don't know about the feat), it doesn't seem to qualify you for size requirements of feats or PrC's. Is this true? Is the feat different? First Powerful Build isn't a feat and is considerably overpowered to be translated into one. To actually answer your question though, Powerful Build DOES NOT allow you to meet prereqs requiring you to be larger then your true size, a Goliath doesn't count as Large in Size for example.
ff6shadow 08-20-07, 09:57 PM	Don't remember a halfling with Powerful Build. I think there was a small creature with Power Build. Think it was called the Red Cap and it might have been in MMIII. Don't have my books onhand to check though. Edit: Checked my books. Yeah Redcap, pg 138 MM3, 4 HD, LA +4, Powerful Build, small size.
ShanxAlot 08-22-07, 04:36 AM	Hmmm does anyone think Powerful Build is worth +1 LA? Here's what I'm thinking so far: Ironfist Racial Traits • +2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Wis: Ironfist are Strong and Sturdy however they lack the conventional sense to avoid taking on more then they can handle. • Small: As a Small creature, an Ironfist gains a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus of Hide Checks, but they use smaller weapons then humans and their lifting capacity is three-quarters of those of a medium character. • Ironfist base land speed is 20 feet. • +3 racial bonus on Climb and Jump checks: Ironfists are both Surefooted and Athletic. • Powerful Build: The physical stature of an Ironfist lets them function in many ways as if they were once size larger. Whenever the difference in size would be beneficial to the Ironfist he is treated as they new size. For example an Ironfist can wield weapons as a medium creature and is not penalized on opposing strength checks for things like Grapple or Bull rush. This does not actually alter his actual size and this effect stacks with spells and abilities that would increase the targets actual size. I'm thinkin that's worth a +1 LA or maybe a Racial HD...
Shadowfax7 08-22-07, 06:50 AM	Hmmm does anyone think Powerful Build is worth +1 LA? Here's what I'm thinking so far: Ironfist Racial Traits • +2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Wis: Ironfist are Strong and Sturdy however they lack the conventional sense to avoid taking on more then they can handle. • Small: As a Small creature, an Ironfist gains a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus of Hide Checks, but they use smaller weapons then humans and their lifting capacity is three-quarters of those of a medium character. • Ironfist base land speed is 20 feet. • +3 racial bonus on Climb and Jump checks: Ironfists are both Surefooted and Athletic. • Powerful Build: The physical stature of an Ironfist lets them function in many ways as if they were once size larger. Whenever the difference in size would be beneficial to the Ironfist he is treated as they new size. For example an Ironfist can wield weapons as a medium creature and is not penalized on opposing strength checks for things like Grapple or Bull rush. This does not actually alter his actual size and this effect stacks with spells and abilities that would increase the targets actual size. I'm thinkin that's worth a +1 LA or maybe a Racial HD...IMO Powerful Build is worth +1 LA. However, the race would also need some ability score bonuses as you have added. Also, I wouldn't give +3 to Climb and Jump, because that is worth 2 feats right there (2 x Skill Focus). Make it +2 to each as the other races have (which is worth 1 feat).
Kaladon7779 08-22-07, 08:38 AM	Powerful Build: The physical stature of an Ironfist lets them function in many ways as if they were once size larger. Whenever the difference in size would be beneficial to the Ironfist he is treated as they new size. For example an Ironfist can wield weapons as a medium creature and is not penalized on opposing strength checks for things like Grapple or Bull rush. This does not actually alter his actual size and this effect stacks with spells and abilities that would increase the targets actual size. Its been a really long time since I last looked at Powerful build, but I didn't think you did the damage as one size catagory larger, I thought it was you can use weapons of the next size catagory without penalties?
baronvonboxy 08-22-07, 12:49 PM	Rock Hurling is a feat in the RoS, that gives you the ability to hurl rocks as a giant can. The Prerequisites are: Str19 size large or larger. It also states the a Goliaths qualify b/c of powerful build. So Powerful Build you are counted as large for everything
AtsuiShoto 08-22-07, 02:25 PM	Do you really think that a Small creature counts as Large because he shares a few of the traits (but certainly not all) that Medium creatures do? That's just silly. Also, +4 Strength is a bit much for a LA +0 race (remember, Small size generally means -2 Strength). The Orc gets Strength +4, but then an Orc has some significant weaknesses. I'd make these freakish "halflings" LA +1 in a heartbeat.
AtsuiShoto 08-22-07, 02:25 PM	Sassa-frassa... %!#@ Tell me, WHYcan't I delete my own posts!?
AtsuiShoto 08-22-07, 02:29 PM	Sassa-frassa... %!#@
AtsuiShoto 08-22-07, 02:31 PM	Sassa-frassa... %!#@
ShanxAlot 08-22-07, 03:20 PM	Also, I wouldn't give +3 to Climb and Jump, because that is worth 2 feats right there (2 x Skill Focus). Make it +2 to each as the other races have (which is worth 1 feat). Hmmmm good point, it was pretty late when drafted this up and since I was trying to stick with the coire Hlafling I stuck with the Base Skill bonus of +6(Halfling has 3x +2). I'll adjust to +2. Its been a really long time since I last looked at Powerful build, but I didn't think you did the damage as one size catagory larger, I thought it was you can use weapons of the next size catagory without penalties? I guess I did a bad job summarizing PB, it was late and I was getting lazy, I should've said treated as large for opposed checks and the purposes of wielding a weapon. Originally I thought it should be expanded to allow for the Non=Penalty small creature would have with Carrying capacity and while it does make sense to give this particular race that advantage it neither falls under powerful build or goes with the Halfing Archtype. So basically ignore my summary and go with the normal Powerful Build. I'll put the actual Powerful Build in there while I work on it today. Do you really think that a Small creature counts as Large because he shares a few of the traits (but certainly not all) that Medium creatures do? That's just silly. Also, +4 Strength is a bit much for a LA +0 race (remember, Small size generally means -2 Strength). The Orc gets Strength +4, but then an Orc has some significant weaknesses. I'd make these freakish "halflings" LA +1 in a heartbeat. You lost me on this...the Ironfist would be considered medium, and while it does provide a +4 bonus on Size related checks that doesn't equate to be a +4 Str, for example it doesn't go towards his attack bonus, damage bonus, skill checks(Jump, Swim) or his carrying capacity. As I had suggested initially I feel this race certainly needs a balancing factor and that's why I've posted it. In flavor sense a Racial HD seems to be more appropriate then a LA but I'm not sure that really mesh's well with the current rule set.
AtsuiShoto 08-22-07, 03:30 PM	I was responding to baronvonboxy about the Large size. As for the strength issue, you've provided a +2 to Strength, whereas Small races usually have a -2. That's +4 net Strength... which is too much for a LA +0 race. Think of the Goliath (which is generally regarded as being on the high end of the LA +1 power spectrum). You've got what's basically a Goliath permanently under the influence of Reduce Person.
ShanxAlot 08-22-07, 04:03 PM	I was responding to baronvonboxy about the Large size. As for the strength issue, you've provided a +2 to Strength, whereas Small races usually have a -2. That's +4 net Strength... which is too much for a LA +0 race. Think of the Goliath (which is generally regarded as being on the high end of the LA +1 power spectrum). You've got what's basically a Goliath permanently under the influence of Reduce Person. I had actually intended the +2 to counter-balanace the size penalty for being small, I had not intended it to be a net balance. Your right that being small(as indicated by the size category) would result in a -2 Str and this particular subrace simply has the physical power to compensate for that difference. So effectively they only have +2 Con, -2 Wis.(ontop of what a typical medium race would have.)
Angel Black 08-22-07, 04:15 PM	Ditch the Powerful Build and take Monkey Grip instead.
AtsuiShoto 08-22-07, 04:22 PM	Ahh, okay. Well, being Small doesn't impose an unspoken -2 to Strength, just as being Large doesn't provide an unspoken +8 to Strength. As such, you don't need to add "+2 Strength" to the racial modifiers. Well, being Small with Powerful Build equates to +1 attack and AC, lower base speed, +4 Hide checks, less restrictive squeezing rules, better carrying capacity for appropriately sized mundane items, and worse carrying capacity otherwise. Call me crazy, but I think dropping the Con bonus would still be needed to balance this race out.
ShanxAlot 08-22-07, 04:41 PM	Ditch the Powerful Build and take Monkey Grip instead. The very flavor of the race is to emphasize hand to hand fighting, not allowing them to use medium sized weapons... Of course I keep saying that w/o posting any of the racial info yet....guess I better start proofreading it so I can post it. Ahh, okay. Well, being Small doesn't impose an unspoken -2 to Strength, just as being Large doesn't provide an unspoken +8 to Strength. As such, you don't need to add "+2 Strength" to the racial modifiers. Well, being Small with Powerful Build equates to +1 attack and AC, lower base speed, +4 Hide checks, less restrictive squeezing rules, better carrying capacity for appropriately sized mundane items, and worse carrying capacity otherwise. Call me crazy, but I think dropping the Con bonus would still be needed to balance this race out. I'm assuming that your talking balanced for LA +1? That's exactly what I'm trying to evaluate. Personally though I think w/o the Con it'd be a rather weak +1, but it could just be me and personal bias. I play on play testing it later today if I have the time. If anyone has any "criticism" for adding a racial HD instead of a LA I would be interested in hearing it, the LA works for some races but I see this more like a monstrous kind of adjustment(think minotuar, yes I know it still has a LA) then I do a supernatural one(Unbodied, Drow, Half-Templates,etc).
ShanxAlot 08-23-07, 12:48 AM	Ok I've put what I have so far on the first post, I'll try to keep that one updated as new points are mentioned and reasonable changes are brought up.
AtsuiShoto 08-23-07, 12:57 AM	The trouble with a single racial hit die is that it gets replaced with your first class level. My suggestion would be to go for 2 humanoid hit dice (which is painful, but survivable) or LA +1 (which allows 1 more level of class abilities, but hurts more in saves and HP). Heck, at LA +1 the stats as they currently stand seem to be balanced nicely. Since you haven't added the LA, I thought you were intending to do without it, which would be imbalanced, of course.
ShanxAlot 08-23-07, 02:02 AM	The trouble with a single racial hit die is that it gets replaced with your first class level. My suggestion would be to go for 2 humanoid hit dice (which is painful, but survivable) or LA +1 (which allows 1 more level of class abilities, but hurts more in saves and HP). Heck, at LA +1 the stats as they currently stand seem to be balanced nicely. Since you haven't added the LA, I thought you were intending to do without it, which would be imbalanced, of course. The 2nd Racial Hit Die is exactly what I had in mind...I really need to be a little more clear with my posts... So I think I'll give that a shot and see how it balances out. Didn't have a chance to play test it today so hopefully I'll have the time tomorrow.
bobothechimp 08-23-07, 03:04 AM	The very flavor of the race is to emphasize hand to hand fighting... Just making sure you know, powerful build does not increase unarmed damage.
tenguroEd 08-23-07, 03:25 AM	First Powerful Build isn't a feat and is considerably overpowered to be translated into one. To actually answer your question though, Powerful Build DOES NOT allow you to meet prereqs requiring you to be larger then your true size, a Goliath doesn't count as Large in Size for example. I thought if you had powerful build, like for example if you were a half-giant, I thought you were consider large for feats and, other stuff.
Majick 08-23-07, 03:28 AM	I think this would make more sense: Small Size (same as usual) +2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Wis (tougher and stronger than regular halflings but not as wise) Powerful Build (count as medium for weapon usage and such) 30 feet movement (faster because of more powerful muscles and athleticism) Languages: Common, Halfling Favoured Class: Fighter LA: +1 First of all, no +2 to strength. Seriously. That's titanic for a SMALL SIZED creature guys. A flat score instead of a negative is fine to represent their powerful builds. Your basically a more powerful and physically build halfling. For the +1 LA you would want at least 2 bonuses to offset the -2 to wisdom (which also makes sense because being more well built physically doesn't always mean a reduction in your natural dexterity, expecially if they are as athletic [all around fitness] as you say they are). Powerful build is a solid racial ability as well but it doesn't do THAT MUCH to really push these little guys up to +2 LA (when you think about the minimal damage increase [about 1 or 2 on average] compared with the medium to large damage jump in Goliaths or Half-Ogres or Half-Giants [usually at least 2 to 4, if not more]) anyway... that's just my take (comparing these guys to Goliaths in terms of power, they are about equal
bobothechimp 08-23-07, 04:10 AM	I thought if you had powerful build, like for example if you were a half-giant, I thought you were consider large for feats and, other stuff. Powerful Build does exactly what it says it does, and nothing else. Anything that specifies that Powerful Build qualifies a creature as large is an exception.
locustechpriest 08-23-07, 07:34 PM	It also states the a Goliaths qualify b/c of powerful build. Does it qualify other medium things with Powerful Build, or just Goliaths? Is it stated as a result of Powerful Build or as a result of being a Goliath, is essentially my point. Is there merit for houseruling that PB qualifies a character for larger size feats?
bobothechimp 08-23-07, 08:10 PM	Powerful Build does exactly what it says it does, and nothing else. That means it does not increase unarmed damage, increase carrying limits, qualify for feats, ect. Anything that specifies that Powerful Build qualifies a creature as large, such as feats that require "Size large or larger. (Goliaths qualify by virtue of their powerful build racial trait)", are exceptions to this rule.
ShanxAlot 08-24-07, 04:30 PM	I think this would make more sense: Small Size (same as usual) +2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Wis (tougher and stronger than regular halflings but not as wise) Powerful Build (count as medium for weapon usage and such) 30 feet movement (faster because of more powerful muscles and athleticism) Languages: Common, Halfling Favoured Class: Fighter LA: +1 First of all, no +2 to strength. Seriously. That's titanic for a SMALL SIZED creature guys. A flat score instead of a negative is fine to represent their powerful builds. Any chance you can elaborate on the bolded section? I'm assuming you mean something like a +0 is reasonable for a small creature but something like a +2 isn't?(at least that's how it reads if one assumes the flat and negative refers to the modifiers). And while this is understandable and I can completely agree with it on some levels, the misconception that small means weaker is far too true in D&D. I do like the suggestion and I'll most likely incorporate into the build as you made a strong point I'd just like to see why that "trend" is allowed to continue. I started looking into some small "monsters" and it seems almost universally they have a Str of 10 or less, or a racial/template modifier off -4 or more. The exceptions being Outsiders which based on what it looks like our campaign is turning into will require me to change this race into.
locustechpriest 08-25-07, 04:31 AM	Is there merit for houseruling that PB qualifies a character for larger size feats? Powerful Build does exactly what it says it does, and nothing else. That's wonderful. I'm glad to see that chimps are trained to repeat themselves word-for-word, and ignore a serious question. Houseruling does not follow RAW. That is the point. I ask "can I" and you say "they didn't", so it does no good. Well, I personally will rule that PB qualifies for feats, just because I like it that way (and yes, I do realize that it goes against RAW).
bobothechimp 08-25-07, 11:58 AM	That's wonderful. I'm glad to see that chimps are trained to repeat themselves word-for-word, and ignore a serious question. Houseruling does not follow RAW. That is the point. I ask "can I" and you say "they didn't", so it does no good. Well, I personally will rule that PB qualifies for feats, just because I like it that way (and yes, I do realize that it goes against RAW). First of all, shut the %#$& up. There is no reason for you to be insulting me. Second, my reply was to the other parts of your post, which you conveniently happened to leave out of your quote.
Kurama Youko 08-25-07, 12:43 PM	this joke might have already been made, but i think we call them Dwarves. :)
locustechpriest 08-26-07, 08:27 PM	@ bobo: The other parts of my post did not merit repeating a post that you had just made. In fact, they were referring to the specific example of the feat, not PB itself, which should have let you know I understood. In essence, I was being sarcastic about your repetition, not attempting to insult you as a person.