Post/Author/DateTime	Post
nighttree 09-01-07, 11:44 PM	This is probably the WEIRDEST question I have asked yet (I don't promise to not come up with something worse in the future)..... So you have a pregnant character, who's child has the "Unholy Scion template" (from Heroes of Horror), controlling her actions......so nine months of adventuring. Does the child gain experience points ? (either all or a portion)? If so.....could said "exp pts" count towards the child "buying off" it's +5 LA, in effect allowing it to start class as 1st level character after birth ???
Rustmonster 09-02-07, 12:13 AM	No. The fetus did not participate in the encounters, and thus gains no exp. It's like if you had a mouse that you kept in your pocket while you adventure and saying "Hey, he leveled up!".
nighttree 09-02-07, 12:31 AM	No. The fetus did not participate in the encounters, and thus gains no exp. It's like if you had a mouse that you kept in your pocket while you adventure and saying "Hey, he leveled up!". except the Unholly Scion DOES participate, they control the mother, and manifest powers through her.
Regular_K 09-02-07, 12:48 AM	nighttree does have a point. That template does have pre-natal powers to control the mother. I'd say that it and the mother would share the XP, but that'd just be my house rule, cause they're sort of the same person.
Tedronai 09-02-07, 12:54 AM	It's much more akin to a Puppeteer (psionic creature), than it is to a mouse hiding in your pocket. The Scion control's the mother's actions, solving problems and overcoming challenges. That is what xp is derived from, not physical combat or direct interaction with one's environment.
Captain_Kobold 09-02-07, 05:04 AM	I'd say use whatever system keeps it at the same ECL as the rest of the characters in the party. The mother/child character should have around the same amount of exp points as the rest of the party, and when the child is born and grown to the point it can participate, it should also have a similar amount of exp points as the rest of the party do at that point. LA/ECL and exp points are both abstract concepts used to allow the characters to advance in balance with each other. No more, no less.
nighttree 09-02-07, 10:47 AM	I think having them share experience sounds fair (although for the Scion all exp must go to reducing the +5 LA from the template). When the child is born, hopefully some of his LA will already be paid for.....and as soon as "it" is able to actually participate, it can use "buy off" to pay for any remaining LA, and go right into class levels.
Roog 09-02-07, 11:44 AM	This is probably the WEIRDEST question I have asked yet (I don't promise to not come up with something worse in the future)..... So you have a pregnant character, who's child has the "Unholy Scion template" (from Heroes of Horror), controlling her actions......so nine months of adventuring. Does the child gain experience points ? (either all or a portion)? If so.....could said "exp pts" count towards the child "buying off" it's +5 LA, in effect allowing it to start class as 1st level character after birth ??? That would only be fair if the child started with the appropriate powers for a level one character (which may not include being able to control the mother, and thus not actively participating therefore not getting any XP), otherwise it would be like a player starting a L1 campaign with a L1 +5 LA character and waiting for the other PCs to catch their XP up before gaining any extra XP. Firstly, why does the child need to buy off its LA? If it is a PC, then the important question is "Will it work as PC within the party and game structure?". If the party is L2 when it is born, then it would need to be an unusual game for it to work; but if the party was L6 or more there could be far less of a problem. If it is not a PC, then its a +5 LA creature, so what reason would it have to not be ECL 6? Secondly, if you are using anything like standard LA buy off rules, then a character needs to be level 45 to buy down +5 LA to +0 LA (and this costs 19k + 30k + 38k + 43k + 45k XP). If the baby gains 100% of the mothers XP and the mother goes from L1 to L49, or if if gains 50% of the mothers XP and the mother goes from L1 to L69, then it will gain enough XP to buy off its +5 LA (and start as a L45 +0 LA character). On the other hand, if you are not using standard LA buy off rules would you let a L1 +5 LA character use their XP to buy off their LA in the same way, with the aim to become a LA +0 LA character?
Rustmonster 09-02-07, 06:29 PM	except the Unholly Scion DOES participate, they control the mother, and manifest powers through her. I was unaware of this. I just assumed you meant a normal baby. I didn't know what the feat did.
nighttree 09-02-07, 09:22 PM	I was unaware of this. I just assumed you meant a normal baby. I didn't know what the feat did. It's not a feat, but a (Su) ability of the template, that allows the unborn child the ability to control the mothers actions, and manifest powers through her ;)
UnrelentingHoror 09-02-07, 10:42 PM	It's not a feat, but a (Su) ability of the template, that allows the unborn child the ability to control the mothers actions, and manifest powers through her ;) Yeah it also means that the fetus has the mental scores it would have as an adult, stat bonuses from the template and all O.0, and access to all the skills, feats, and class features as if it was fully grown through its whole life....starting as a fetus. So basically what I'm getting from this is that once the child is born because of a combination of the xp, template physical stat bonuses offsetting some things, and the working knowledge ability of the unholy scion a few months after birth little baby adventurer is going to be capable of walking and talking, as well as manifesting powers. Heck if it has a caster class it could verry well be a pretty good contributer to the party at less than age 1 :eek: So your basically gonna have Stewy from family guy running around with the party, a little incredibly intelligent and evil baby. It might behoove you to try to figure out how you might mitigate the LA of this little kid based on its physical negatives as an infant (although not eliminate it, its too powerful for that) Also what exactly might the stats for a Unholy Scion Baby would be. This kids gonna be tough. Let us know how things turn out when little Damien starts adventureing! :D This is gonna be some badass RP.
nighttree 09-02-07, 11:22 PM	Yeah it also means that the fetus has the mental scores it would have as an adult, stat bonuses from the template and all O.0, and access to all the skills, feats, and class features as if it was fully grown through its whole life....starting as a fetus. So basically what I'm getting from this is that once the child is born because of a combination of the xp, template physical stat bonuses offsetting some things, and the working knowledge ability of the unholy scion a few months after birth little baby adventurer is going to be capable of walking and talking, as well as manifesting powers. Heck if it has a caster class it could verry well be a pretty good contributer to the party at less than age 1 :eek: So your basically gonna have Stewy from family guy running around with the party, a little incredibly intelligent and evil baby. It might behoove you to try to figure out how you might mitigate the LA of this little kid based on its physical negatives as an infant (although not eliminate it, its too powerful for that) Also what exactly might the stats for a Unholy Scion Baby would be. This kids gonna be tough. Let us know how things turn out when little Damien starts adventureing! :D This is gonna be some badass RP. LOL...STEWY....that's PERFECT....ROFLMAO One of the things I have been thinking about ALL day is how to reflect "physical" stats for an infant :confused: We normally do 32 point buy, and the mental stats are not a problem since the Unholy Scion have full mental development prior to birth. But the physical stats are a problem..... I am looking at giving him an excelerated growth rate, so he will probably hit a "physical age" of fifteen, by about fifteen months from birth. One thought I had had was to generate physical stats as normal for point buy, then give him a -8 at birth....with a +1 increase for every "2 year" increment of relative age, until he hits full score.
nighttree 09-02-07, 11:45 PM	That would only be fair if the child started with the appropriate powers for a level one character (which may not include being able to control the mother, and thus not actively participating therefore not getting any XP), otherwise it would be like a player starting a L1 campaign with a L1 +5 LA character and waiting for the other PCs to catch their XP up before gaining any extra XP. Firstly, why does the child need to buy off its LA? If it is a PC, then the important question is "Will it work as PC within the party and game structure?". If the party is L2 when it is born, then it would need to be an unusual game for it to work; but if the party was L6 or more there could be far less of a problem. If it is not a PC, then its a +5 LA creature, so what reason would it have to not be ECL 6? Good point.....the rest of the players are allready at level 8, so It is probably not such a big issue to "buy off" the LA.
Roog 09-03-07, 02:42 AM	Good point.....the rest of the players are allready at level 8, so It is probably not such a big issue to "buy off" the LA. I think you must be using ""buy off" the LA" to mean something different from me. If I was to say ""buy off" the LA", I would mean that the character no longer has the LA and becomes an ordinary +0 LA character (with some extra abilities). What exactly do you mean (in mechanical terms) by ""buy off" the LA"?
UnrelentingHoror 09-03-07, 03:05 AM	LOL...STEWY....that's PERFECT....ROFLMAO One of the things I have been thinking about ALL day is how to reflect "physical" stats for an infant :confused: We normally do 32 point buy, and the mental stats are not a problem since the Unholy Scion have full mental development prior to birth. But the physical stats are a problem..... I am looking at giving him an excelerated growth rate, so he will probably hit a "physical age" of fifteen, by about fifteen months from birth. One thought I had had was to generate physical stats as normal for point buy, then give him a -8 at birth....with a +1 increase for every "2 year" increment of relative age, until he hits full score. Yeah something like that could easily work, however for realisms sake I'd personally for the first increment or two have certain physical scores "locked" at a certain amount as at that point its just developmental stuff and the work and extra skill (or lack thereof) hasn't quite had a chance to differentiate itself yet. You could go either way on the physical stat bonuses for unholy scion being applied at that point. Also if the character hasn't reached their full development at age fifteen just put them up to date. .... also you might wanna keep some sort of small negative all the way up to that point. Just some ideas.
nighttree 09-03-07, 10:42 AM	I think you must be using ""buy off" the LA" to mean something different from me. If I was to say ""buy off" the LA", I would mean that the character no longer has the LA and becomes an ordinary +0 LA character (with some extra abilities). What exactly do you mean (in mechanical terms) by ""buy off" the LA"? Sorry for not being very clear.....what I mean is actually "earning" exp pre-natal to "account" for some of the LA. My concern was having him born with a +5 LA, and as a result having to earn 15,000 exp before he even get's his first HD (from a class). That is a LONG way to go with no HP to speak off. I had also "considered" allowing him to pay for some of his LA normally.....and use the "buy off" rules from UA for a portion, so for example Pre-natal he earns a total of 2,999 exp pts (paying for +2 of his total +5 LA), after birth I would then use the "buy off" mechanic to pay for the remaining +3 LA...? But I'm still trying to figure out if that actually "work" or not. I know it is certainly not the "normal" approach.....but this is far from a "normal" situation :D
nighttree 09-03-07, 10:49 AM	Yeah something like that could easily work, however for realisms sake I'd personally for the first increment or two have certain physical scores "locked" at a certain amount as at that point its just developmental stuff and the work and extra skill (or lack thereof) hasn't quite had a chance to differentiate itself yet. You could go either way on the physical stat bonuses for unholy scion being applied at that point. Also if the character hasn't reached their full development at age fifteen just put them up to date. .... also you might wanna keep some sort of small negative all the way up to that point. Just some ideas. That was another way I was "toying" with. The "reality" angle (which can only go so far in a fantasy setting) is still something I try to address. I was thinking of "locking" Str, and Dex, pretty low (despite his mental awareness his body still needs to develop, and he needs to learn just how to use it), there is a little more flexability regarding Con, so that probably does not need to be locked at as low a value.
UnrelentingHoror 09-03-07, 08:25 PM	That was another way I was "toying" with. The "reality" angle (which can only go so far in a fantasy setting) is still something I try to address. I was thinking of "locking" Str, and Dex, pretty low (despite his mental awareness his body still needs to develop, and he needs to learn just how to use it), there is a little more flexability regarding Con, so that probably does not need to be locked at as low a value. Haha, yeah I know full well the whole 'reality' thing being a fine line in these kind of things. There are times it can add to the game and times it just gets in the way: (i.e. Player:"you know that outcropping of rock technically shouldn't be able to suport that dragon's weight if it is in fact made of the most common type of stone in these kind of areas which is *bah de blah balh den blah* Oh and how does that dragon even fly with it's inadequate wingspan and solid bones?..." GM:"yeah steve.....could we kind of ditch the physics lesson until another time? We kind of have a combat encounter to play out here as that black dragon just let loose on his surprise round with it's breath weapon... Actually I don't need to hear about the varied problems that would prevent that from happening in the 'real world' I think you just kind of killed the evening, whos up for Denny's?") Funny thing about children, since this is kind of relevant. I found a nice little structure type thing for "de-advanceing" monsters based on age. Try fully reading the Giant section in the original monster manual where it mentions children.
Terric 09-03-07, 10:21 PM	nighttree does have a point. That template does have pre-natal powers to control the mother. I'd say that it and the mother would share the XP, but that'd just be my house rule, cause they're sort of the same person. Perhaps like a cohort? You could consider this demonic fetus a cohort for the sake of experiance gain; it doesn't threaten the experiance pool but it doesn't level up as fast. I think it'd be a great, interesting thing. Especially t'were it a psion... and if it managed to be in a campaign where the DM squeezes in a quest per D&D-time week (so 36 quests before the birth of the baby). The baby could body swap as soon as it's born. Heh.
Captain_Kobold 09-03-07, 10:30 PM	Sorry for not being very clear.....what I mean is actually "earning" exp pre-natal to "account" for some of the LA. My concern was having him born with a +5 LA, and as a result having to earn 15,000 exp before he even get's his first HD (from a class). That is a LONG way to go with no HP to speak off. I had also "considered" allowing him to pay for some of his LA normally.....and use the "buy off" rules from UA for a portion, so for example Pre-natal he earns a total of 2,999 exp pts (paying for +2 of his total +5 LA), after birth I would then use the "buy off" mechanic to pay for the remaining +3 LA...? But I'm still trying to figure out if that actually "work" or not. I know it is certainly not the "normal" approach.....but this is far from a "normal" situation :D Nighttree, I think you might be misunderstanding the rules for starting characters with LA. A character always has an experience total in keeping with their ECL. A character starting at ECL 8 has enough experience points to be level 8 whether they have 8 character levels, or 3 character levels and a +5 LA. Theoretically, they should also have level 8 worth of starting equipment, but you might have to fudge things a bit there. If 3HD in a level 8 party seems a bit fragile, then link its maturity to its levels. Quarter its immature ability scores, reduce its skill points by 4 per level, and allow it to start at character level 5 (keeping its ECL at 8). When it has gained enough experience to level up, its immature ability scores increase to half their final total, and it gains 2 skill points/level. This replaces actually going up a level. The next level, give it its full ability scores and the remaining 2 skill points/level in lieu of advancing that level. Try to throw in enough stuff that it can use to give it similar equiptment to the other characters by this point. You now have a fully matured, ECL 10 (5character levels, +5 LA) character to match the rest of the ECL 10 party.
nighttree 09-03-07, 11:19 PM	Perhaps like a cohort? You could consider this demonic fetus a cohort for the sake of experiance gain; it doesn't threaten the experiance pool but it doesn't level up as fast. I think it'd be a great, interesting thing. Especially t'were it a psion... and if it managed to be in a campaign where the DM squeezes in a quest per D&D-time week (so 36 quests before the birth of the baby). The baby could body swap as soon as it's born. Heh. I was actually thinking of having the "mother" be the cohort, since the child is actually the PC, and the one calling the shots, and the mother is kind of just the one getting him there.
nighttree 09-03-07, 11:32 PM	Nighttree, I think you might be misunderstanding the rules for starting characters with LA. That would not suprize me one little bit :D A character always has an experience total in keeping with their ECL. A character starting at ECL 8 has enough experience points to be level 8 whether they have 8 character levels, or 3 character levels and a +5 LA. OK...with you so far...... If 3HD in a level 8 party seems a bit fragile, then link its maturity to its levels. Quarter its immature ability scores, reduce its skill points by 4 per level, and allow it to start at character level 5 (keeping its ECL at 8). When it has gained enough experience to level up, its immature ability scores increase to half their final total, and it gains 2 skill points/level. This replaces actually going up a level. The next level, give it its full ability scores and the remaining 2 skill points/level in lieu of advancing that level. Try to throw in enough stuff that it can use to give it similar equiptment to the other characters by this point. You now have a fully matured, ECL 10 (5character levels, +5 LA) character to match the rest of the ECL 10 party. OK lost me there (that's me....not you, I'm still getting all the "subtlties" of the game down). My concern is having a 5th level character, in play, with NO HP, BA, BS, etc...etc... not to mention that despite the wonderful ability mod's, no skill points, ( I assume you still get feats & ability increase for those 5 levels ?). If along with the template you recieved the "Outsider" Hit die, BA, saves, etc....etc....I would have NO issue with using the first 5 levels to cover the LA......but without those things, counting my first 5 levels worth of experience points is a real "glass jaw" situation.
Roog 09-04-07, 01:18 AM	I had also "considered" allowing him to pay for some of his LA normally.....and use the "buy off" rules from UA for a portion, so for example Pre-natal he earns a total of 2,999 exp pts (paying for +2 of his total +5 LA), after birth I would then use the "buy off" mechanic to pay for the remaining +3 LA...? Other people have commented on possible misconceptions you may have had about LA, so I will only comment on LA buy-off. According to UA, you should not be able to buy off any of your LA until your character level is three times your LA (i.e. Class Level 15 for this character). For this character: At character level 15 (ECL 20) you can spend 19k XP to become LA +4 At character level 27 (ECL 31) you can spend another 30k XP to become LA +3 At character level 36 (ECL 39) you can spend another 38k XP to become LA +2 At character level 42 (ECL 44) you can spend another 43k XP to become LA +1 At character level 45 (ECL 46) you can spend another 45k XP to become LA +0 The reduction in LA cannot be made any quicker than this. Since the party is level 8 (not level 20) its far to soon to allow any LA reduction.
Roog 09-04-07, 02:24 AM	My concern is having a 5th level character, in play, with NO HP, BA, BS, etc...etc... not to mention that despite the wonderful ability mod's, no skill points, ( I assume you still get feats & ability increase for those 5 levels ?). If along with the template you recieved the "Outsider" Hit die, BA, saves, etc....etc....I would have NO issue with using the first 5 levels to cover the LA......but without those things, counting my first 5 levels worth of experience points is a real "glass jaw" situation. If the party is level 8 you could start the baby at level 3 + 5 LA.
Captain_Kobold 09-04-07, 09:07 AM	Sorry. I mixed up there. Is this clearer? Roog has stated what I had assumed: If the rest of your party are level 8, then you will be starting with an effective character level of 8. (Normally 3 class levels and +5 LA) My suggestion was an option to give a few more HP at the beginning if you thought it necessary. If 3HD in a level 8 party seems a bit fragile, then link its maturity to its levels. Quarter its immature ability scores, reduce its skill points by 4 per level, and allow it to start with 5 class levels (keeping its ECL at 8). When it has gained enough experience to level up, its immature ability scores increase to half their final total, and it gains 2 skill points/level. This replaces actually going up a level. The next level, give it its full ability scores and the remaining 2 skill points/level in lieu of advancing that level. Try to throw in enough stuff that it can use to give it similar equiptment to the other characters by this point. You now have a fully matured, ECL 10 (5 class levels, +5 LA) character to match the rest of the ECL 10 party. P.S. Anyone know how to show crossed-out words in these boards?
nighttree 09-04-07, 10:13 AM	OK, I gotch ya now. As we have only done LA "buy off" for LA +2 or less, I thought I must be reading it wrong regarding +5 LA, but I'm not. So LA "buy off" is not really much use to me in this case (characters in this setting seldom go above level 20). I'll have to think this over some.......the template might be a bit much for our game.
nighttree 09-04-07, 10:15 AM	If the party is level 8 you could start the baby at level 3 + 5 LA. Probably exactly what I will do (but hold off on having him "use" any class features for a few months at least).
nighttree 09-04-07, 10:54 AM	OK...I think this is what I'm gunna do..... Start the child as already born, apparent age of 8 (he's actually only 8 months old). Reduce his adult Str, and Dex score. And has 3 class levels +5 LA from "Unholy Scion", total ECL of 8. Mother will be a level 5 cohort (I assume LA figures in when determining cohort level ?) At each "level up" he will appear roughly one year older (apparent age equal to ECL by the way), will gain a few points of his Str, and Dex (until he reaches max adult level somewhere around level 7) and will visibly look to be an adult (or as "adult" as a fifteen year old looks at least ;) ) at around level 10 (ECL 15) Thanks Captain Kobold, for the linking apparent age to level. idea