Post/Author/DateTime	Post
KendraKirai 01-10-08, 02:45 PM	Okay, I'm making a half-Celestial Lycanthrope (natural). It's clear that this is possible..A Celestial gets jiggy with a lycanthrope. Half-Celestial can be added to any living, corporeal creature with an INT of 4 or greater, which a Lycanthrope clearly is. My question is, concerning multiple inherited templates.. In this example, the base race is human. Now, since Lycanthrope is overlaid first, does that change the base race for the purposes of Half-Celestial from Human to Lycanthrope? I'm asking this because of the wings a Half-Celestial has. According to everything I've read, they would definitely have it in human form, but there's nothing I can find concerning wings in hybrid. Since the hybrid form has the movement speeds of the base creature...what happens when the humanoid form has gained a flying speed from Half-Celestial? Does the hybrid form become a hybrid of the ORIGINAL base creature, or the MODIFIED base creature, in the case of multiple templates? If a Lycanthrope is overlaid with the Half-Celestial template, do all three forms gain wings? Only the humanoid form? Humanoid and Hybrid? I hope I can get an answer from a WoTC staffer in this matter... Hybrid doesn't really have any rules about how it's handled. The animal form is 'As if Polymorphed or Alter Self' with a whole slew of exceptions to the rule...but the Hybrid form is just describe as 'an animalistic version of the humanoid form'. In this case, the humanoid form includes wings... Also, as a side question, in the case where a human has an inherited template like that, do they retain the extra feat and skill points inherent to humans, even if their type changes to Dragon, or Outsider? (Presumably no extra skill points to racial hit dice, but that's a related question I'd like answered.)
M-bark 01-10-08, 03:11 PM	To my knowledge, the hybrid would have wings, the animal form would not, because the animal form is merely just that: an animal. (Unless the base animal has wings.) As of now, I cannot give you a clear question on the second matter.
Talisman 01-10-08, 04:14 PM	When applying multiple templates, apply the first one completely. Don't even consider any subsequent ones. Then, once that is done, apply the next one completely, etc. In your case, take the base creature (human). Applu Template A, in this case, lycanthrope (werewolf? Just for the sake of arguement). Type changes, not to "Lycanthrope" (which is neither a type nor a subtype), but "Humanoid (Human, Shapechanger)." Human is currently the base creature. The werebeastie's hybrid form is half-human, half-wolf. Now we apply half-celestial. Type changes to "Outsider," as per 1/2 C, with the Native subtype. The Human subtype is lost, since there are no Outsiders (Human) floating aroind; however, the Shapechanger subtype is retained, since the creature can clearly still change shape. Thus, the type is now "Outsider (Native, Shapechanger)." Now, nothing about the 1/2-C template mentions the wings being lost when the 1/2-C changes shape. Also, note that 1/2-C wolves are totally possible (awaken spell for the 4 Int), and would have wings, according to the 1/2-C template. Therefore, the 1/2-C werewolf has wings in all three forms. You could make a case for no wings in wolf form, especially if this were an afflicted lycan. However, in your example it would be a true lycan (mama or papa was a lycan, other parent was an angel), and the wolf form would be as natural a form as human form...sort of like a ghaele's true form is both an elf-angel and a globe of light. In any event, even an afflicted lycan/1/2-C should have wings in both humanoid and hybrid forms.
KendraKirai 01-10-08, 04:30 PM	Well, technically it's a Weretiger, not a werewolf, but I'm glad somebody sees my point. So then that means with two inherited templates, the first template added makes *that templated creatre* the Base Creature? And what about the human bonuses for skill points and the starting feat? That's lost completely, then?
Legdiwena 01-10-08, 04:44 PM	Good distinction, since half-celestial werewolf isn't allowed.
Talisman 01-10-08, 05:07 PM	So then that means with two inherited templates, the first template added makes *that templated creatre* the Base Creature? As I understand it, yes. The untemplated human can't be the base creature for Template #2, because he's already got Template #1 plastered all over him. It's easiest to think of a templated creature as a unique and distinct species, unrelated to the base creature. Thus, a human weretiger is a different thing from a human, despite the fact that A is just B with a template. And what about the human bonuses for skill points and the starting feat? That's lost completely, then? There's a bit of a debate about that...whether racial traits carry over. But the lycan template doesn't mention anything being lost, and neither does the 1/2-C template. Personally, I'd allow them to stay, just as I'd allow the skill bonuses for a lycan 1/2-C elf. Good distinction, since half-celestial werewolf isn't allowed. :rolleyes: Technically, you can put the half-celestial template on darn near anything. You can legally make a half-celestial mind flayer, for :coolcthul's sake. Werewolves aren't eldritch embodiments of evil; they're mortal creatures, and most happen to be evil. Yes, I am flexible with alignments.
Legdiwena 01-10-08, 05:19 PM	Werewolf is listed as always chaotic evil. I know afflicted lycanthropes change alignment if they fail a Will save when they change form. I would think natural lycanthropes are born with the alignment, could always change to another one later.
DragonicHeritage 01-11-08, 08:15 PM	I think it would lose wings in animal form-a lycanthrope is humanoid first, so they change completely into the animal as polymorph. Also, when it says 'always x' alignment it means that the creature is evil FIRST then whatever alignment second, so while an individual may change alignment, their offspring would start as the default alignment for their race, so it would'nt happen by core rules, at any rate. Hope I help, and good luck!
zeratulcraft 01-11-08, 09:36 PM	Werewolf is listed as always chaotic evil. I know afflicted lycanthropes change alignment if they fail a Will save when they change form. I would think natural lycanthropes are born with the alignment, could always change to another one later. It's always amused me, the entry on Lycanthropes says they gain the alignment of the animal they turn into. Yet all animals are neutral, lacking intelligence enough for morality, so why do we have chaotic evil lycans..?
BugHunter 01-12-08, 01:40 AM	Talk about a massive level adjustment for it. 3 (natural were) +6 (RHD for tiger) +4 (half-celestial) giving you a total LA of +13 before any class levels. Unless dm has own rules for something like this.
KendraKirai 01-12-08, 08:40 AM	Yeah, I'm starting at ECL 13 (One class level, 'cause it's required. I'm using the weretiger progression on the wizards site from a few years back to take the last LA of Weretiger later. I can do without the Curse of Lycanthropy and DR 10/Silver for a while.) So, nobody else has any ideas about whether or not the hybrid or tiger forms would have the wings? or the human racial traits?