Questions on Lycanthropes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Questions on Lycanthropes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Leukrythus
05-11-07, 11:49 AM In the process of transferring over one of my characters from 2.0 to 3.5, I got a bit hung up on the Lycanthrope part. The transition was done in the first game I joined, but neither the DM nor I were experts in the rules. We recently had some new players join us, and some of there characters are Lycanthropes too. The Monster Manual is not very clear on some of the detail of character specifics, so I would like to ask some of the experts here what is correct.

Let's start out with the basics... my character is a refugee Githyanki Fighter (CN), and he was afflicted at tenth level from a Weretiger (6HD). Now the Fighter is let's say 20th level with a Constitution of 14 (now 20 from Lycanthrope).

Hit Points: HP = 20(d10+2)+6(d8+5). My HP as a humanoid are from my levels and my unmodified Con. My HP as a Lycanthrope are from my animal HD and my modified Con.

Attack Bonus: It goes up by one per HD, correct? Animals and Monsters use Hit Dice plus Level on the Fighter table for attack bonus. Would my base attack bonus be (+20/+15/+10/+5, all +6 for my HD), or (+20/+15/+10/+5, +6/+1/+0/+0)?

Hit Dice: Regarding hit dice; what if I were a Trog that started with two HD, would my new HD be 2+6=8, or would they default to 6?

Saving Throws: What table do I use to figure Saving Throw bonuses from my animal HD?

Skills: With an Intel of 12, my Fighter would get (3+20)(2+1)=69 skill points. As a Lycanthrope, it would get (6)(2+1)=18 more. Do those skills come all at once, and if not how are they added?

Feats: The book says that I add my HD to my Level, and add my 6 new feats based on that. As a Fighter, do I gain 2 for normal character progression (one per 3 levels), plus 3 (one per 2 levels) for fighter progression? I also gain the feat Iron Will. Is that in addition to the others, or must I make that one of my selections?

Spell Resistance: As a Githyanki my Spell Resistance is 5 plus my Level. Do I also add my HD to that?

Control Shape: I am an Afflicted Lycanthrope, not a Natural one. Control Shape is a Wisdom-based skill that I can use to decide which shape I want, when, with a DC=20 (as far as I know). The book says jack about when I am forced to change, so all I have to go by are old movies. When is an Afflicted Lycanthrope forced to change? When is a Natural Lycanthrope forced to change (if at all)? What if the Afflicted Lycanthrope is deep underground or on another plane when the change should occur?

Thanks to anyone who can help me with the above questions. Sometimes I think that the books were left very vague on purpose.
fiendish_platypus
05-11-07, 11:53 AM pg. 290 of the Monster Manual should help you with most of your issues.

EDIT: you only get the feats for your HD, no extra Fighter Bonus Feats.

Spell Resistance: I'd say yes, although it doesn't actually say this it would only be fair, as most creatures SR are based on their HD.

Control Shape: What the diddly is control shape???

EDIT2: Found control shape, I think it assumes you turn into a lycanthrope at night or on the full moon or something, I'd just let my players change form at will... (plus Control Shape's not on the character sheet)

EDIT3: Hoped that helped:P
Naderion
05-11-07, 02:10 PM I think espacially regarding the skills, you best create the character at 1st level and then advance him one level a time until you are at the level you think he gained lycanthropie (lets say, level 10).
At that point you apply the lycanthrope template to him. Because of the level adjustment, the character becomes level 12. The additional Hit Dice of the animal are apparently not counted for the effective character level.
If the whole template thing is done, you level him up 8 times untill you are at level 20.

But the Monster Manual and the SRD (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monstersKtoL.html#lycanthrope) both explain it very understandable, just follow the instrunctions step by step.
Leukrythus
05-11-07, 02:30 PM I think espacially regarding the skills, you best create the character at 1st level and then advance him one level a time until you are at the level you think he gained lycanthropie (lets say, level 10).
At that point you apply the lycanthrope template to him. Because of the level adjustment, the character becomes level 12. The additional Hit Dice of the animal are apparently not counted for the effective character level.

Yeah, that's the way we did it with all of our characters, one level at a time, trying to approximate what we would've selected at that level, not where it is now. Characters that take on a template LA+2 hold their current level for three levels, until it is paid for, I believe.

But the Monster Manual and the SRD both explain it very understandable, just follow the instructions step by step.

Well... I have read through both books in detail numerous times, and since it was still vague to me, I posted the question.
Silversheen197
05-11-07, 03:03 PM In the process of transferring over one of my characters from 2.0 to 3.5, I got a bit hung up on the Lycanthrope part. The transition was done in the first game I joined, but neither the DM nor I were experts in the rules. We recently had some new players join us, and some of there characters are Lycanthropes too. The Monster Manual is not very clear on some of the detail of character specifics, so I would like to ask some of the experts here what is correct.

Let's start out with the basics... my character is a refugee Githyanki Fighter (CN), and he was afflicted at tenth level from a Weretiger (6HD). Now the Fighter is let's say 20th level with a Constitution of 14 (now 20 from Lycanthrope).

Hit Points: HP = 20(d10+2)+6(d8+5). My HP as a humanoid are from my levels and my unmodified Con. My HP as a Lycanthrope are from my animal HD and my modified Con.

Attack Bonus: It goes up by one per HD, correct? Animals and Monsters use Hit Dice plus Level on the Fighter table for attack bonus. Would my base attack bonus be (+20/+15/+10/+5, all +6 for my HD), or (+20/+15/+10/+5, +6/+1/+0/+0)?

Hit Dice: Regarding hit dice; what if I were a Trog that started with two HD, would my new HD be 2+6=8, or would they default to 6?

Saving Throws: What table do I use to figure Saving Throw bonuses from my animal HD?

Skills: With an Intel of 12, my Fighter would get (3+20)(2+1)=69 skill points. As a Lycanthrope, it would get (6)(2+1)=18 more. Do those skills come all at once, and if not how are they added?

Feats: The book says that I add my HD to my Level, and add my 6 new feats based on that. As a Fighter, do I gain 2 for normal character progression (one per 3 levels), plus 3 (one per 2 levels) for fighter progression? I also gain the feat Iron Will. Is that in addition to the others, or must I make that one of my selections?

Spell Resistance: As a Githyanki my Spell Resistance is 5 plus my Level. Do I also add my HD to that?

Control Shape: I am an Afflicted Lycanthrope, not a Natural one. Control Shape is a Wisdom-based skill that I can use to decide which shape I want, when, with a DC=20 (as far as I know). The book says jack about when I am forced to change, so all I have to go by are old movies. When is an Afflicted Lycanthrope forced to change? When is a Natural Lycanthrope forced to change (if at all)? What if the Afflicted Lycanthrope is deep underground or on another plane when the change should occur?

Thanks to anyone who can help me with the above questions. Sometimes I think that the books were left very vague on purpose.

Let's go through this point by point:

Hit Points and Hit Dice: I'm assuming githyankis don't have racial HD, so you would be correct here: you have 20d10+40 (from your fighter levels) plus 6d8+30 (from your tiger HD). You use the same HP for all forms (so if you had average hp from the above expression, you would have 211 hp, no matter what form you're in). If you were playing a trog, you would also have its two racial HD, for a total of 28 HD.

Attack Bonus: Animals gain base attack as a druid does (an easy way to remember this is anything a druid can normally turn into has a druid's BAB), so your base attack bonus is +20 from your fighter levels and +4 from your animal levels, so total you have +24/+19/+14/+9.

Saving Throws: Animals have "good" Fort and Ref saves (Fort and Ref progress like a fighter's Fort) and "bad" Will saves (progress like a fighter's Will), so in addition to your base Fort +12, Ref +6, Will +6 from your fighter levels, you would add Fort +5, Ref +5, and Will +2, for a total of Fort +17, Ref +11, Will +8.

Skills: Animals gain the same number of skill points as fighters per level, so your skill points for Int 14 should be (2+2) x23 =92 from fighter levels, and (2+2) x6 =24 from your tiger levels, for a total of 116 (if my math is correct; there's a very good chance it isn't :D ). Basically, you use your normal Int bonus for the number of skill points you get from your tiger levels.

Feats: You have 1 feat per 3 HD, plus 1 for 1st level, plus Iron Will as a bonus feat (all lycanthropes get it), plus your 11 fighter bonus feats, plus any bonus feats that a tiger normally gets (I don't think it gets any, though). Since you're an afflicted, I would just add the tiger's normal feats to your own, since your character really didn't get to choose them (he gained the HD from whence they came when he first transformed, and the tiger part of him chose the feats, and the feats listed for a tiger are the ones a tiger normally chooses ;) ).

Spell Resistance: I would assume so, but I am not familiar with the giths, so I could be wrong. Someone else will have to answer that one.

Control Shape: The book does indeed tell you when you are forced to transform, and what DCs those are. The skill descriprion is on page 290 or something around there.

Hope I helped!
Tsuul
05-11-07, 03:13 PM http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031114a
May help answer your quetsions

Hit Points: You have the same HP in ALL forms. Even though your con is lower in your human form. Add the lycan bonus HPs to your own (HD and con). Reverse engineer the HPs in the MM to see how it's done

Attack Bonus: 3/4 progression, not full. Again this adds to your normal form as well.

Hit Dice: Adds. 2+6=8

Saving Throws: Animal table. This also adds to your own save bonuses

Skills: All at once. Lycans are only skilled in the skills their animals know and control shape. If you used a progression you would get it one level at a time.

Feats: All feats labeled as (b) are bonus feats, you get them for free, you can not substitute them out. Iron will is a bonus feat.
You also get run, and endurance as bonus feats. I am assuming you have 12 levels of fighter and 8 levels of lycanthrope(6hd+2la=8). So you get 12 levels of fighter bonus feats, and 18 levels of normal feats.

Spell Resistance: I think you add your HD to it

Control Shape:DM whim. Full moon, massive damage, great emotional turmoil etc...

Also there is an update on Alternate form ability. Clothing/armor no longer gets destroyed. It will either meld if it cant fit, or it will grow/shrink in size so that it can fit.
Hybrids can wear armor, while armor melds into the animal forms. Anything put on by hybid or animal form falls off when shifting to human form.
Leukrythus
05-11-07, 06:00 PM Thanks for the answers, I believe that I have it now.

Also there is an update on Alternate form ability. Clothing/armor no longer gets destroyed. It will either meld if it cant fit, or it will grow/shrink in size so that it can fit.

Hybrids can wear armor, while armor melds into the animal forms. Anything put on by hybrid or animal form falls off when shifting to human form.

I believe than an old edition had magic items adapting to size changes, but not no magic items.
Neutronium_Dragon
05-11-07, 07:22 PM Well, you've got some other problems here.

One, an afflicted weretiger fighter 20 is a 28th level character, not at 20th level one. If you want to convert him as a 20th level character then he'd only have 12 fighter levels.

Which means...

Hit Points: HP = 12(d10+2)+6(d8+5). This applies in all forms.

Attack Bonus: +12 as fighter, +4 as weretiger, thus +16 total (giving you four attacks with a full attack action). Note that this does not give you more natural attacks when using a claw/claw/bite routine - it only applies to wielded weapons.

Hit Dice: The Githyanki fighter has 18 hit dice (12 from his fighter levels and 6 from the weretiger template). If you're trying to create a troglodyte weretiger as a 20th level character then he'd have 16 hit dice (2 troglodyte hit dice, 6 from the weretiger template, 8 fighter levels, and +4 LA in total), assuming that he is also afflicted.

Saving Throws: Add the fighter 12 and animal 6 ones together. +8 +4 +4 and +5 +5 +2 become +13 +9 +6.

Skills: With an Intel of 12: He would have 15 x 3 = 45 skill points as a fighter and 6 x 3 = 18 as an animal. As described above, the most accurate way would be to advance him level by level.

, my Fighter would get (3+20)(2+1)=69 skill points. As a Lycanthrope, it would get (6)(2+1)=18 more. Do those skills come all at once, and if not how are they added?

Feats: With 18 hit dice, you have 7 normal feats. As a fighter 12, you also gain 7 bonus fighter feats. In addition to that, you gain Iron Will as a bonus feat. Note that the feats listed for the weretiger (other than Iron Will) must be purchased using those feats - the rest of them don't come as a bonus.

Spell Resistance: Hit dice are added, yes. He'd have SR 5 + 18 = 23.

Control Shape: This is described in two places: P178 of the MM talks about "Lycanthropy as an Affliction" and also references the skill description on P303. Those cover the situations where a control shape check is required.
Neutronium_Dragon
05-11-07, 07:25 PM As far as equipment goes, this issue has been addressed by the Magic Item Compendium. Magical armor, weapons, and shields won't resize, and will fall off in the lycanthrope's space if they don't fit the new size. They don't reshape to entirely different shapes either, though they will reshape as long as the form is similar.

That means that a werewolf going to hybrid form is okay (since the hybrid form is still considered humanoid), but not to animal form (since that's an entirely different shape). A weretiger is out of luck either way because its alternate forms are large.

Other types of magical items (cloaks, boots, rings, etc) will resize and reshape to fit the wearer as long as there's a remotely equivalent body slot. A snake can't wear rings (since it has no arm-like appendages), but a weretiger won't have any problems.
Tsuul
05-11-07, 07:54 PM Also there is an update on Alternate form ability. Clothing/armor no longer gets destroyed. It will either meld if it cant fit, or it will grow/shrink in size so that it can fit.

Hybrids can wear armor, while armor melds into the animal forms. Anything put on by hybrid or animal form falls off when shifting to human form.
I believe than an old edition had magic items adapting to size changes, but not no magic itemsCheck out the recent version of the MM errata. This is changed.

As far as equipment goes, this issue has been addressed by the Magic Item Compendium.This is new to me. I'll check out the MIC. But the Alternate Form ability of lycanthopes may still supersede this.
Leukrythus
05-11-07, 10:42 PM Well, you've got some other problems here. One, an afflicted weretiger fighter 20 is a 28th level character, not at 20th level one. If you want to convert him as a 20th level character then he'd only have 12 fighter levels.

Hit Dice: The Githyanki fighter has 18 hit dice (12 from his fighter levels and 6 from the weretiger template). If you're trying to create a troglodyte weretiger as a 20th level character then he'd have 16 hit dice (2 troglodyte hit dice, 6 from the weretiger template, 8 fighter levels, and +4 LA in total), assuming that he is also afflicted.

The Monster Manual give the LA for a Lycanthrope to be 2 (afflicted) or 3 (natural). How is that LA affected by the base animal's Hit Dice?
BugHunter
05-11-07, 11:01 PM The HD for the type of animal is added to the LA. Total LA for an afflicted weretiger is +8 or +9 for a natural.

To figure out when you would get the standard level feats and ability increases you would use your total hit dice for example 12 class HD + 6 animal HD would give 6 feats and 4 ability increases.
Tsuul
05-11-07, 11:31 PM ECL (Estimated character level) = LA (level adjustment) + HD (Hit die).
ECL is good for calculating experience for attaining next level, appropriate wealth, and for picking encounters to challenge the player.

And a quick glance at the Magic Item Compendium does not contradict armor changing size if your lycathrope changes size. In other words the armor does grow/shrink from the Alternate Form ability. It doesn't change shape though, so armor doesn't alter itself to fit an elephant/dog/other 4 legged animal.
Leukrythus
05-12-07, 08:20 AM The HD for the type of animal is added to the LA. Total LA for an afflicted weretiger is +8 or +9 for a natural.

To figure out when you would get the standard level feats and ability increases you would use your total hit dice for example 12 class HD + 6 animal HD would give 6 feats and 4 ability increases.

Hmmm... that would make playing a Lycanthrope very expensive in experience, who would ever want to do that?

Where is that indicated in the core rule books?

And then there would be those that tried to get around the prohibitive cost in experience by regularly getting themselves bitten be a captured creature, then get themselves cured on an ongoing basis.
fiendish_platypus
05-12-07, 08:41 AM ECL (Effective character level) = LA (level adjustment) + HD (Hit die).
ECL is good for calculating experience for attaining next level, appropriate wealth, and for picking encounters to challenge the player.

Fixed.
BugHunter
05-12-07, 11:50 AM Hmmm... that would make playing a Lycanthrope very expensive in experience, who would ever want to do that?

Where is that indicated in the core rule books?

And then there would be those that tried to get around the prohibitive cost in experience by regularly getting themselves bitten be a captured creature, then get themselves cured on an ongoing basis.

It is at the top of page 178 of the MM under the heading of Level Adjustment. Also listed in the DMG on page 172-173 experience for monsters. The experience is the price for getting all those stat bonuses.
Silversheen197
05-12-07, 08:09 PM Just making sure we're clear: the Level Adjustment doesn't change, it remains +2 for your afflicted weretiger. Your character level, however, increases by 8, because you added 6 HD and a LA of +2. So your 20th level gith fighter weretiger has an ECL (effective character level) of 32: 20 for fighter levels, 6 for tiger HD, 2 for githyanki level adjustment, and 2 for lycanthrope level adjustment.
Leukrythus
05-13-07, 01:49 PM Great answers all. Now I have one more final question on this issue.

If I am a Human Fighter (LA=0, no racial HD) at tenth level, do my levels go down if I become afflicted by Lycanthrope, or does it just take a very, very long time for me to reach my next level?
fiendish_platypus
05-13-07, 01:59 PM Great answers all. Now I have one more final question on this issue.

If I am a Human Fighter (LA=0, no racial HD) at tenth level, do my levels go down if I become afflicted by Lycanthrope, or does it just take a very, very long time for me to reach my next level?

Your levels don't go down, you are correct, your ECL will shoot through the roof, so it will be harder to gain experience and it will take quite a while to gain your next level.
Ovistavin
05-13-07, 05:12 PM An alternative to gaining the template all at once is in this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/sp) series of articles.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Leukrythus 05-11-07, 11:49 AM	In the process of transferring over one of my characters from 2.0 to 3.5, I got a bit hung up on the Lycanthrope part. The transition was done in the first game I joined, but neither the DM nor I were experts in the rules. We recently had some new players join us, and some of there characters are Lycanthropes too. The Monster Manual is not very clear on some of the detail of character specifics, so I would like to ask some of the experts here what is correct. Let's start out with the basics... my character is a refugee Githyanki Fighter (CN), and he was afflicted at tenth level from a Weretiger (6HD). Now the Fighter is let's say 20th level with a Constitution of 14 (now 20 from Lycanthrope). Hit Points: HP = 20(d10+2)+6(d8+5). My HP as a humanoid are from my levels and my unmodified Con. My HP as a Lycanthrope are from my animal HD and my modified Con. Attack Bonus: It goes up by one per HD, correct? Animals and Monsters use Hit Dice plus Level on the Fighter table for attack bonus. Would my base attack bonus be (+20/+15/+10/+5, all +6 for my HD), or (+20/+15/+10/+5, +6/+1/+0/+0)? Hit Dice: Regarding hit dice; what if I were a Trog that started with two HD, would my new HD be 2+6=8, or would they default to 6? Saving Throws: What table do I use to figure Saving Throw bonuses from my animal HD? Skills: With an Intel of 12, my Fighter would get (3+20)(2+1)=69 skill points. As a Lycanthrope, it would get (6)(2+1)=18 more. Do those skills come all at once, and if not how are they added? Feats: The book says that I add my HD to my Level, and add my 6 new feats based on that. As a Fighter, do I gain 2 for normal character progression (one per 3 levels), plus 3 (one per 2 levels) for fighter progression? I also gain the feat Iron Will. Is that in addition to the others, or must I make that one of my selections? Spell Resistance: As a Githyanki my Spell Resistance is 5 plus my Level. Do I also add my HD to that? Control Shape: I am an Afflicted Lycanthrope, not a Natural one. Control Shape is a Wisdom-based skill that I can use to decide which shape I want, when, with a DC=20 (as far as I know). The book says jack about when I am forced to change, so all I have to go by are old movies. When is an Afflicted Lycanthrope forced to change? When is a Natural Lycanthrope forced to change (if at all)? What if the Afflicted Lycanthrope is deep underground or on another plane when the change should occur? Thanks to anyone who can help me with the above questions. Sometimes I think that the books were left very vague on purpose.
fiendish_platypus 05-11-07, 11:53 AM	pg. 290 of the Monster Manual should help you with most of your issues. EDIT: you only get the feats for your HD, no extra Fighter Bonus Feats. Spell Resistance: I'd say yes, although it doesn't actually say this it would only be fair, as most creatures SR are based on their HD. Control Shape: What the diddly is control shape??? EDIT2: Found control shape, I think it assumes you turn into a lycanthrope at night or on the full moon or something, I'd just let my players change form at will... (plus Control Shape's not on the character sheet) EDIT3: Hoped that helped:P
Naderion 05-11-07, 02:10 PM	I think espacially regarding the skills, you best create the character at 1st level and then advance him one level a time until you are at the level you think he gained lycanthropie (lets say, level 10). At that point you apply the lycanthrope template to him. Because of the level adjustment, the character becomes level 12. The additional Hit Dice of the animal are apparently not counted for the effective character level. If the whole template thing is done, you level him up 8 times untill you are at level 20. But the Monster Manual and the SRD (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monstersKtoL.html#lycanthrope) both explain it very understandable, just follow the instrunctions step by step.
Leukrythus 05-11-07, 02:30 PM	I think espacially regarding the skills, you best create the character at 1st level and then advance him one level a time until you are at the level you think he gained lycanthropie (lets say, level 10). At that point you apply the lycanthrope template to him. Because of the level adjustment, the character becomes level 12. The additional Hit Dice of the animal are apparently not counted for the effective character level. Yeah, that's the way we did it with all of our characters, one level at a time, trying to approximate what we would've selected at that level, not where it is now. Characters that take on a template LA+2 hold their current level for three levels, until it is paid for, I believe. But the Monster Manual and the SRD both explain it very understandable, just follow the instructions step by step. Well... I have read through both books in detail numerous times, and since it was still vague to me, I posted the question.
Silversheen197 05-11-07, 03:03 PM	In the process of transferring over one of my characters from 2.0 to 3.5, I got a bit hung up on the Lycanthrope part. The transition was done in the first game I joined, but neither the DM nor I were experts in the rules. We recently had some new players join us, and some of there characters are Lycanthropes too. The Monster Manual is not very clear on some of the detail of character specifics, so I would like to ask some of the experts here what is correct. Let's start out with the basics... my character is a refugee Githyanki Fighter (CN), and he was afflicted at tenth level from a Weretiger (6HD). Now the Fighter is let's say 20th level with a Constitution of 14 (now 20 from Lycanthrope). Hit Points: HP = 20(d10+2)+6(d8+5). My HP as a humanoid are from my levels and my unmodified Con. My HP as a Lycanthrope are from my animal HD and my modified Con. Attack Bonus: It goes up by one per HD, correct? Animals and Monsters use Hit Dice plus Level on the Fighter table for attack bonus. Would my base attack bonus be (+20/+15/+10/+5, all +6 for my HD), or (+20/+15/+10/+5, +6/+1/+0/+0)? Hit Dice: Regarding hit dice; what if I were a Trog that started with two HD, would my new HD be 2+6=8, or would they default to 6? Saving Throws: What table do I use to figure Saving Throw bonuses from my animal HD? Skills: With an Intel of 12, my Fighter would get (3+20)(2+1)=69 skill points. As a Lycanthrope, it would get (6)(2+1)=18 more. Do those skills come all at once, and if not how are they added? Feats: The book says that I add my HD to my Level, and add my 6 new feats based on that. As a Fighter, do I gain 2 for normal character progression (one per 3 levels), plus 3 (one per 2 levels) for fighter progression? I also gain the feat Iron Will. Is that in addition to the others, or must I make that one of my selections? Spell Resistance: As a Githyanki my Spell Resistance is 5 plus my Level. Do I also add my HD to that? Control Shape: I am an Afflicted Lycanthrope, not a Natural one. Control Shape is a Wisdom-based skill that I can use to decide which shape I want, when, with a DC=20 (as far as I know). The book says jack about when I am forced to change, so all I have to go by are old movies. When is an Afflicted Lycanthrope forced to change? When is a Natural Lycanthrope forced to change (if at all)? What if the Afflicted Lycanthrope is deep underground or on another plane when the change should occur? Thanks to anyone who can help me with the above questions. Sometimes I think that the books were left very vague on purpose. Let's go through this point by point: Hit Points and Hit Dice: I'm assuming githyankis don't have racial HD, so you would be correct here: you have 20d10+40 (from your fighter levels) plus 6d8+30 (from your tiger HD). You use the same HP for all forms (so if you had average hp from the above expression, you would have 211 hp, no matter what form you're in). If you were playing a trog, you would also have its two racial HD, for a total of 28 HD. Attack Bonus: Animals gain base attack as a druid does (an easy way to remember this is anything a druid can normally turn into has a druid's BAB), so your base attack bonus is +20 from your fighter levels and +4 from your animal levels, so total you have +24/+19/+14/+9. Saving Throws: Animals have "good" Fort and Ref saves (Fort and Ref progress like a fighter's Fort) and "bad" Will saves (progress like a fighter's Will), so in addition to your base Fort +12, Ref +6, Will +6 from your fighter levels, you would add Fort +5, Ref +5, and Will +2, for a total of Fort +17, Ref +11, Will +8. Skills: Animals gain the same number of skill points as fighters per level, so your skill points for Int 14 should be (2+2) x23 =92 from fighter levels, and (2+2) x6 =24 from your tiger levels, for a total of 116 (if my math is correct; there's a very good chance it isn't :D ). Basically, you use your normal Int bonus for the number of skill points you get from your tiger levels. Feats: You have 1 feat per 3 HD, plus 1 for 1st level, plus Iron Will as a bonus feat (all lycanthropes get it), plus your 11 fighter bonus feats, plus any bonus feats that a tiger normally gets (I don't think it gets any, though). Since you're an afflicted, I would just add the tiger's normal feats to your own, since your character really didn't get to choose them (he gained the HD from whence they came when he first transformed, and the tiger part of him chose the feats, and the feats listed for a tiger are the ones a tiger normally chooses ;) ). Spell Resistance: I would assume so, but I am not familiar with the giths, so I could be wrong. Someone else will have to answer that one. Control Shape: The book does indeed tell you when you are forced to transform, and what DCs those are. The skill descriprion is on page 290 or something around there. Hope I helped!
Tsuul 05-11-07, 03:13 PM	http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031114a May help answer your quetsions Hit Points: You have the same HP in ALL forms. Even though your con is lower in your human form. Add the lycan bonus HPs to your own (HD and con). Reverse engineer the HPs in the MM to see how it's done Attack Bonus: 3/4 progression, not full. Again this adds to your normal form as well. Hit Dice: Adds. 2+6=8 Saving Throws: Animal table. This also adds to your own save bonuses Skills: All at once. Lycans are only skilled in the skills their animals know and control shape. If you used a progression you would get it one level at a time. Feats: All feats labeled as (b) are bonus feats, you get them for free, you can not substitute them out. Iron will is a bonus feat. You also get run, and endurance as bonus feats. I am assuming you have 12 levels of fighter and 8 levels of lycanthrope(6hd+2la=8). So you get 12 levels of fighter bonus feats, and 18 levels of normal feats. Spell Resistance: I think you add your HD to it Control Shape:DM whim. Full moon, massive damage, great emotional turmoil etc... Also there is an update on Alternate form ability. Clothing/armor no longer gets destroyed. It will either meld if it cant fit, or it will grow/shrink in size so that it can fit. Hybrids can wear armor, while armor melds into the animal forms. Anything put on by hybid or animal form falls off when shifting to human form.
Leukrythus 05-11-07, 06:00 PM	Thanks for the answers, I believe that I have it now. Also there is an update on Alternate form ability. Clothing/armor no longer gets destroyed. It will either meld if it cant fit, or it will grow/shrink in size so that it can fit. Hybrids can wear armor, while armor melds into the animal forms. Anything put on by hybrid or animal form falls off when shifting to human form. I believe than an old edition had magic items adapting to size changes, but not no magic items.
Neutronium_Dragon 05-11-07, 07:22 PM	Well, you've got some other problems here. One, an afflicted weretiger fighter 20 is a 28th level character, not at 20th level one. If you want to convert him as a 20th level character then he'd only have 12 fighter levels. Which means... Hit Points: HP = 12(d10+2)+6(d8+5). This applies in all forms. Attack Bonus: +12 as fighter, +4 as weretiger, thus +16 total (giving you four attacks with a full attack action). Note that this does not give you more natural attacks when using a claw/claw/bite routine - it only applies to wielded weapons. Hit Dice: The Githyanki fighter has 18 hit dice (12 from his fighter levels and 6 from the weretiger template). If you're trying to create a troglodyte weretiger as a 20th level character then he'd have 16 hit dice (2 troglodyte hit dice, 6 from the weretiger template, 8 fighter levels, and +4 LA in total), assuming that he is also afflicted. Saving Throws: Add the fighter 12 and animal 6 ones together. +8 +4 +4 and +5 +5 +2 become +13 +9 +6. Skills: With an Intel of 12: He would have 15 x 3 = 45 skill points as a fighter and 6 x 3 = 18 as an animal. As described above, the most accurate way would be to advance him level by level. , my Fighter would get (3+20)(2+1)=69 skill points. As a Lycanthrope, it would get (6)(2+1)=18 more. Do those skills come all at once, and if not how are they added? Feats: With 18 hit dice, you have 7 normal feats. As a fighter 12, you also gain 7 bonus fighter feats. In addition to that, you gain Iron Will as a bonus feat. Note that the feats listed for the weretiger (other than Iron Will) must be purchased using those feats - the rest of them don't come as a bonus. Spell Resistance: Hit dice are added, yes. He'd have SR 5 + 18 = 23. Control Shape: This is described in two places: P178 of the MM talks about "Lycanthropy as an Affliction" and also references the skill description on P303. Those cover the situations where a control shape check is required.
Neutronium_Dragon 05-11-07, 07:25 PM	As far as equipment goes, this issue has been addressed by the Magic Item Compendium. Magical armor, weapons, and shields won't resize, and will fall off in the lycanthrope's space if they don't fit the new size. They don't reshape to entirely different shapes either, though they will reshape as long as the form is similar. That means that a werewolf going to hybrid form is okay (since the hybrid form is still considered humanoid), but not to animal form (since that's an entirely different shape). A weretiger is out of luck either way because its alternate forms are large. Other types of magical items (cloaks, boots, rings, etc) will resize and reshape to fit the wearer as long as there's a remotely equivalent body slot. A snake can't wear rings (since it has no arm-like appendages), but a weretiger won't have any problems.
Tsuul 05-11-07, 07:54 PM	Also there is an update on Alternate form ability. Clothing/armor no longer gets destroyed. It will either meld if it cant fit, or it will grow/shrink in size so that it can fit. Hybrids can wear armor, while armor melds into the animal forms. Anything put on by hybrid or animal form falls off when shifting to human form. I believe than an old edition had magic items adapting to size changes, but not no magic itemsCheck out the recent version of the MM errata. This is changed. As far as equipment goes, this issue has been addressed by the Magic Item Compendium.This is new to me. I'll check out the MIC. But the Alternate Form ability of lycanthopes may still supersede this.
Leukrythus 05-11-07, 10:42 PM	Well, you've got some other problems here. One, an afflicted weretiger fighter 20 is a 28th level character, not at 20th level one. If you want to convert him as a 20th level character then he'd only have 12 fighter levels. Hit Dice: The Githyanki fighter has 18 hit dice (12 from his fighter levels and 6 from the weretiger template). If you're trying to create a troglodyte weretiger as a 20th level character then he'd have 16 hit dice (2 troglodyte hit dice, 6 from the weretiger template, 8 fighter levels, and +4 LA in total), assuming that he is also afflicted. The Monster Manual give the LA for a Lycanthrope to be 2 (afflicted) or 3 (natural). How is that LA affected by the base animal's Hit Dice?
BugHunter 05-11-07, 11:01 PM	The HD for the type of animal is added to the LA. Total LA for an afflicted weretiger is +8 or +9 for a natural. To figure out when you would get the standard level feats and ability increases you would use your total hit dice for example 12 class HD + 6 animal HD would give 6 feats and 4 ability increases.
Tsuul 05-11-07, 11:31 PM	ECL (Estimated character level) = LA (level adjustment) + HD (Hit die). ECL is good for calculating experience for attaining next level, appropriate wealth, and for picking encounters to challenge the player. And a quick glance at the Magic Item Compendium does not contradict armor changing size if your lycathrope changes size. In other words the armor does grow/shrink from the Alternate Form ability. It doesn't change shape though, so armor doesn't alter itself to fit an elephant/dog/other 4 legged animal.
Leukrythus 05-12-07, 08:20 AM	The HD for the type of animal is added to the LA. Total LA for an afflicted weretiger is +8 or +9 for a natural. To figure out when you would get the standard level feats and ability increases you would use your total hit dice for example 12 class HD + 6 animal HD would give 6 feats and 4 ability increases. Hmmm... that would make playing a Lycanthrope very expensive in experience, who would ever want to do that? Where is that indicated in the core rule books? And then there would be those that tried to get around the prohibitive cost in experience by regularly getting themselves bitten be a captured creature, then get themselves cured on an ongoing basis.
fiendish_platypus 05-12-07, 08:41 AM	ECL (Effective character level) = LA (level adjustment) + HD (Hit die). ECL is good for calculating experience for attaining next level, appropriate wealth, and for picking encounters to challenge the player. Fixed.
BugHunter 05-12-07, 11:50 AM	Hmmm... that would make playing a Lycanthrope very expensive in experience, who would ever want to do that? Where is that indicated in the core rule books? And then there would be those that tried to get around the prohibitive cost in experience by regularly getting themselves bitten be a captured creature, then get themselves cured on an ongoing basis. It is at the top of page 178 of the MM under the heading of Level Adjustment. Also listed in the DMG on page 172-173 experience for monsters. The experience is the price for getting all those stat bonuses.
Silversheen197 05-12-07, 08:09 PM	Just making sure we're clear: the Level Adjustment doesn't change, it remains +2 for your afflicted weretiger. Your character level, however, increases by 8, because you added 6 HD and a LA of +2. So your 20th level gith fighter weretiger has an ECL (effective character level) of 32: 20 for fighter levels, 6 for tiger HD, 2 for githyanki level adjustment, and 2 for lycanthrope level adjustment.
Leukrythus 05-13-07, 01:49 PM	Great answers all. Now I have one more final question on this issue. If I am a Human Fighter (LA=0, no racial HD) at tenth level, do my levels go down if I become afflicted by Lycanthrope, or does it just take a very, very long time for me to reach my next level?
fiendish_platypus 05-13-07, 01:59 PM	Great answers all. Now I have one more final question on this issue. If I am a Human Fighter (LA=0, no racial HD) at tenth level, do my levels go down if I become afflicted by Lycanthrope, or does it just take a very, very long time for me to reach my next level? Your levels don't go down, you are correct, your ECL will shoot through the roof, so it will be harder to gain experience and it will take quite a while to gain your next level.
Ovistavin 05-13-07, 05:12 PM	An alternative to gaining the template all at once is in this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/sp) series of articles.