Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Otto the Bugbear 05-31-07, 09:45 PM	Hey all. I'm offering a few minor alterations for the races of my game. Mostly these are pretty minor, but I figured I'd get some input anyway. Dwarf: The standard (most common) dwarven racial variant is often referred to as a Mountain Dwarf. Racial Traits: Humanoid type (dwarf subtype) Medium: As Medium creatures, dwarves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. +2 racial bonus to Constitution and –2 Dexterity (dwarves are hearty, but they have short, stocky bodies) Darkvision 60 ft. Dwarf base land speed is 20 feet. However, dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load (unlike other creatures, whose speed is reduced in such situations). Stability Stonecunning +2 racial bonus on Appraise and Craft checks that are related to stone or metal items. +2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects. +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison. +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type. Automatic Languages: Dwarven. Typical secondary languages: Common, Giant, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Terran. Favored Class: Fighter or Cleric Racial Variants: Shield Dwarf: change –2 Dexterity to -2 Charisma Deep Dwarf: change –2 Dexterity to –2 Wisdom Elf: The standard (most common) elfin racial variant is often referred to as a Moon Elf. Racial Traits: Humanoid type (elf subtype) Medium: As Medium creatures, elves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. +2 racial bonus to Dexterity and –2 penalty to Constitution (elves are nimble, but less hearty than other races) Low-Light Vision Elf base land speed is 30 feet. Weapon Proficiency: Elves can use any one light slashing weapon, bow or spear without suffering the non-proficiency penalty. This cannot be an exotic weapon. +10 racial bonus v. sleep spells and effects. +2 racial saving throw bonus against necromancy spells and effect. +2 racial bonus to spot, listen and survival checks. Automatic Languages: Elven. Typical secondary languages: Common, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, and Orc. Favored Class: Wizard or Sorcerer Racial Variants: Sun Elf: change +2 listen to +2 search, change +2 Dexterity to +2 Intelligence, change +2 v. necromancy spells and effects to +2 v. transmutation spells and effects Wild Elf: change –2 Constitution to –2 Intelligence, change +2 v. necromancy spells and effects to +2 v. enchantment spells and effects. Gnome: The standard (most common) gnomish racial variant is often referred to as a Rock Gnome. Racial Traits: Humanoid type (gnome subtype) Small: As a Small creature, a gnome gains a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks, but he uses smaller weapons than humans use, and his lifting and carrying limits are three-quarters of those of a Medium character. +2 racial bonus to Constitution and -2 penalty to Strength (gnomes are hearty, but as a small creature they suffer a strength penalty) Low Light Vision Gnome base land speed is 20 feet. Add +1 to the Difficulty Class for all saving throws against illusion spells cast by gnomes. This adjustment stacks with those from similar effects. +2 racial bonus on saving throws against negative energy, ability drain, ability damage or death effects +2 racial bonus v. poison +1 to the DC of any illusion or necromancy spells they cast. +2 racial bonus on all spellcraft checks against necromancy and illusion spells and effects. +2 racial bonus on Move Silently checks. +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against kobolds and goblinoids. Spell-Like Abilities: At will – dusk/dawn Automatic Languages: Gnome. Typical secondary languages: Common, Dwarf, Elf, Giant, Goblin, Kobold and Orc. Favored Class: Hexblade or Dread Necromancer Racial Variants: Shadow Gnome: lose the +2 racial bonus on spellcraft checks against necromancy and illusion spells and effects, change the +2 racial bonus to move silently to +4, gain +2 racial bonus on hide checks. Whisper Gnome: change the +2 racial bonus on saving throws against negative energy, ability drain, ability damage or death effect to +2 racial bonus on saving throws against illusion. Half-Elf: Like elves, the standard (most common) half-elfin racial variant is referred to as a half-moon-elf. Racial Traits: Humanoid type (human and elf subtype) Medium: As Medium creatures, half-elves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. Half-elf base land speed is 30 feet. Low-light vision +2 racial bonus on diplomacy and bluff +1 racial bonus to spot, listen and survival checks. 4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level. +2 racial bonus on saving throws against necromancy spells and effects. Bonus Feat: Skill Focus (choose any two skills except diplomacy and bluff) Automatic Languages: Common or Elven. Typical secondary languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic). Favored Class: Any one. Racial Variants: Sun Half-Elf: change +2 bluff to +2 listen, change +2 v. necromancy spells and effects to +2 v. transmutation spells and effects. Wild: change +2 bluff and diplomacy to +2 survival and knowledge (nature), change +2 v. necromancy spells and effects to +2 v. enchantment spells and effects. [b]Half-Orc:[/v] The standard (most common) half-orc racial variant is often referred to as a half-mountain-orc. Racial Traits: Humanoid type (human and orc subtype) Medium: As Medium creatures, half-orcs have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. +2 racial bonus to strength and –2 Intelligence (half-orcs are very strong, but not very bright) Half-orc base land speed is 30 feet. Darkvision 60 ft. +2 racial bonus on intimidate and survival 4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level. +2 racial bonus to saves against poison and disease Automatic Languages: Common or Orc. Typical secondary languages: Common, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, Kobold, and Orc. Favored Class: Barbarian or Ranger Racial Variants: Grey Half-Orc: change –2 Intelligence to –2 Charisma, change +2 survival to +2 sense motive, lose bonus skill points, gain Skill Focus: Intimidate Deep Half-Orc: change +2 Strength to +2 Constitution, change Darkvision 60 ft. to Darkvision 90 ft., gain light sensitivity (-1 to hit, etc. in daylight or bright light) Halfling: The standard (most common) halfling racial variant is often referred to as a Lightfoot Halfling. Racial Traits: Humanoid type (halfling subtype) Small: As a Small creature, a halfling gains a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks, but she uses smaller weapons than humans use, and her lifting and carrying limits are three-quarters of those of a Medium character. +2 racial bonus to Dexterity and -2 Strength (halflings are nimble and quick, but as small creatures they are not very strong) Halfling base land speed is 20 feet. +2 racial bonus on Climb, Jump, Listen, and Move Silently checks. +1 racial bonus on all saving throws. +2 bonus on saving throws against fear. +1 racial bonus to hit with ranged weapons Automatic Languages: Halfling. Typical secondary languages: Common, Elf, Gnome, Goblin, Kobold and Orc. Favored Classes: Rogue or Swashbuckler Racial Variants: Strongheart: lose +2 bonus on saving throws against fear, gain +2 bonus on saving throws against death effects. Ghostwise: lose +2 racial bonus to Listen and Move Silently, gain +2 racial bonus to Balance and Tumble edit: Ok, made a few changes along the lines of some of the suggestions. edit2: newest changes are up So, thanks in advance for any critiques or problems that you might catch. Cheers Otto :)
Omega_Grey 06-01-07, 01:10 AM	They look very good to me, in fact I like the dwarf a ton (and I almost never play a dwarf). The only things I could find unbalancing were as follows Sun Elf racial stats dont seem to balance each other out properly, maybe add in a +2 Wis to that as well. Half-Elf bonus feats seem to take away a lot of the bonuses for being human, I understand that you can only take skill focus with the half-elf but he already is getting free skill points and bonuses to skills. Maybe limit it to one skill focus to be taken into any skill and get rid of the bonus to bluff and diplomacy. Lightfoot Halfling trades in a +1 on all saves and a +2 on fear for a straight up +2 on all saves. Seems a little over powered compared to the base stock. Ghostwis Halfling get telepathy seemingly for free, I dont know if you had a drawback in mind and just didnt give it to them or if it just slipped your mind, but I just felt it needed to be pointed out. Half-Orc bonus skills offset the penalty for having a +2 Str, I would either get rid of the bonus skill points, or I would add in another stat penalty such as Wis or Cha. Deep Half-Orc trade in darkvision for 120ft darkvision? Is there some penalty that wasnt posted? Even those that I posted are really minor, you did a great job in keeping balance overall.
Tusalu 06-01-07, 02:29 AM	Very good. But goodbye to dwarf rogues.
Omega_Grey 06-01-07, 02:36 AM	Not really, just because they have a -2 to a stat doesnt mean they automatically fail at everything they do. After all, that penalty just means that they have a net bonus of one lower then a human when compared and in the long run that isnt that much of a loss.
Otto the Bugbear 06-01-07, 12:19 PM	They look very good to me, in fact I like the dwarf a ton (and I almost never play a dwarf). The only things I could find unbalancing were as follows Sun Elf racial stats dont seem to balance each other out properly, maybe add in a +2 Wis to that as well. Really? Changing from -2 Con / +2 dex into -2 Con / +2 Int, +2 Wis doesn't seem a bit much to you? I tried to keep all the stat adjustments to nullify themselves. One at -2, one at +2. Half-Elf bonus feats seem to take away a lot of the bonuses for being human, I understand that you can only take skill focus with the half-elf but he already is getting free skill points and bonuses to skills. Maybe limit it to one skill focus to be taken into any skill and get rid of the bonus to bluff and diplomacy. I can see that happening. Lightfoot Halfling trades in a +1 on all saves and a +2 on fear for a straight up +2 on all saves. Seems a little over powered compared to the base stock. Suggestions? Perhaps lose the +1 thrown weapons bonus as well? Ghostwis Halfling get telepathy seemingly for free, I dont know if you had a drawback in mind and just didnt give it to them or if it just slipped your mind, but I just felt it needed to be pointed out. That's a slip. Supposed to lose the racial bonus to saves and the thrown weapon bonus. Half-Orc bonus skills offset the penalty for having a +2 Str, I would either get rid of the bonus skill points, or I would add in another stat penalty such as Wis or Cha. This is another one where the stat bonus and penalty should even out. Making it +2 Str / -2 Int & (Wis or Cha) would bring it right back to the craptastic PHB half-orc. The skill points are one of those areas where so many people have advertised using that variant without problems that I'm not sure if I would change it. Deep Half-Orc trade in darkvision for 120ft darkvision? Is there some penalty that wasnt posted? Should be, shouldn't there? Darkvision 120 is huge. I'm inclined to say remove the bonus to saves and the skill bonuses, but even that may not be enough. Perhaps drop it to 90 ft., and get rid of the save bonuses? Even those that I posted are really minor, you did a great job in keeping balance overall. Thanks Very good. But goodbye to dwarf rogues. Omega is right. Also, I'd rather reestablish the dwarven spellcasting (including arcane) than worry about how their stumpy, stocky bodies are as nimble and dextrous as other races. The Dex penalty just seems to make more sense when I look at them. It also helps explain the penchant for heavy armor among dwarven communities. After all, you don't need to rely on a high Dex score if you're going to be wearing the heavy armors.
Omega_Grey 06-01-07, 05:23 PM	My reasoning behind that the Sun Elves should get another stat bonus (and that the half-orc should get another penalty) is that one stat is not completely 100% equal to another, yes you apply both con and int everytime you level up (in hp and skill points gained) but the hp will come up much more often in a combat scenario (which in a typical DnD setting will be very often) then another skill will. Thats why I suggested another bonus into Wis or Cha as these are seen as less optimal stats and the bonuses that they provide are minor to the average combat encounter. As for the half-orc the argument is true there as well, Str is probably the best stat for a bonus out of the six, followed closely by Con and Dex. So all I was saying is that a bonus to Str being offset by a penalty to Int that is being offset by a bonus skill seems to be a little on the overpowered side, but not by much. I just thought it was a little odd. As for the lightfoot halfling, I can see that happening, or another possibility is that they get a luck domain ability for saves once per day or something like that and lose the straight up bonus on all saves. And for the deep half-orc I cant really see anything to take away to balance that out, but maybe giving them Light Sensitivity or maybe even Light Blindness (they can always take a feat to reduce the penalty if they like) and that should off set the increase in range. Anyway, like I said before these are great jobs and I look forward to hearing any further imput on these. Also you have inspired me to make my own adjustments and maybe I will have you help me balance them someday...
Rustmonster 06-02-07, 08:06 AM	About the stat adjustments. A Mental ability (Int, Wis, Cha) bonus balances with a mental ability penalty or a Con penalty. A Str or Dex bonus balances with a Physical ability penaltie (Str, Dex, Con) A Con bonus balances with a penalty to any ability score. It would be best to try to balance the scores out, otherwise they will get an unfair advantage.
Shadowfax7 06-02-07, 09:06 AM	Here are my observations, they are based on comparing your races to the PHB races. Take what you will from my comments: Elf: Racial Traits: Weapon Proficiency: Elves can use any one light slashing weapon, bow or spear without suffering the non-proficiency penalty. This cannot be an exotic weapon. +10 racial bonus v. sleep spells and effects The PHB Elf gets 4 Martial weapons, none of which are light weapons. You reduce those abilities by replacing 2 1h Martial weapons with a Simple weapon and 1 light weapon. There is nothing wrong with this for flavor in a campaign, but the Elf is not the strongest race in the PHB requiring a reduction of its abilities and as such should not have any of it's abilities reduced w/o at least an equivalent replacement. IMO unless Elves actually sleep in your campaign, why shouldn't they be immune to sleep. It isn't the greatest immunity in the world, and it also reduces the Elf's overall abilities. Basically I don't necessarily think your changes are a problem, but the fact that you reduce the Elf's abilities and don't provide anything to bring them back up to par. Half-Elf: Racial Traits: +2 racial bonus on diplomacy and bluff 4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level. Bonus Feat: Skill Focus (choose any two skills except diplomacy and bluff)IMO (as well as many others) the Half-Elf is weak compared to the other races, but now you have added too much. You should at least remove the +2 racial bonus on diplomacy and bluff, as it is no longer needed with this variant Half-Elf. You should keep the Bonus Feat of a Skill Focus if you don't give them immunity to sleep spells and effects. However, IMO a +2 vs. sleep spells and effects along with the Human's skill point bonuses would effectively replace the immunity to sleep spells and effects of the PHB Half-Elf, w/o even needing the Bonus feat of a Skill Focus. Half-Orc: Racial Traits: +2 racial bonus on intimidate and survival 4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level +2 racial bonus to saves against poison and disease Again, IMO (as well as many others) the Half-Orc is weak compared to the other races, but now you have added slightly too much. I would not give them both the Human's bonus skill points and a +2 racial bonus on intimidate and survival. IMO the +2 racial bonus on intimidate and survival fits them better. I have a problem with a race having a penalty to Int and the Human's bonus skill points, it doesn't seem appropriate. The +2 racial bonus to saves against poison and disease is a good ability and flavor. I have also always thought they should have a +2 Con as well (along with bringing back the -2 Cha), but that's just my 1st and 2nd ed. part speaking.
AMGriffin 06-02-07, 09:50 AM	Hey all. I'm offering a few minor alterations for the races of my game. Mostly these are pretty minor, but I figured I'd get some input anyway. Sounds good, lemme start by saying however that I really enjoyed your fighter fix on the Classes board. Dwarf: Racial Traits: Humanoid type (dwarf subtype) Medium: As Medium creatures, dwarves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. +2 racial bonus to Constitution and –2 Dexterity (dwarves are hearty, but they have short, stocky bodies) Darkvision 60 ft. Dwarf base land speed is 20 feet. However, dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load (unlike other creatures, whose speed is reduced in such situations). Stability Stonecunning +2 racial bonus on Appraise and Craft checks that are related to stone or metal items. +2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects. +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison. +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against orcs and goblinoids. +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type. Automatic Languages: Dwarven. Bonus Languages: Common, Giant, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Terran. Favored Classes: Fighter and Cleric Racial Variants: Shield Dwarf: change –2 Dexterity to -2 Charisma Mountain Dwarf: change +2 Constitution to +2 Strength Deep Dwarf: change -2 Dexterity to –2 Wisdom Hmm...these dwarf penalties kinda overlap eachother a little bit. The mountain dwarf needs something else to penalize it, maybe light sensitivity, just something little like that. Elf: Racial Traits: Humanoid type (elf subtype) Medium: As Medium creatures, elves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. +2 racial bonus to Dexterity and –2 penalty to Constitution (elves are nimble, but less hearty than other races) Low-Light Vision Elf base land speed is 30 feet. Weapon Proficiency: Elves can use any one light slashing weapon, bow or spear without suffering the non-proficiency penalty. This cannot be an exotic weapon. +10 racial bonus v. sleep spells and effects +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects. +2 racial bonus to spot, listen and survival checks. Automatic Languages: Elven. Bonus Languages: Common, Draconic, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, and Sylvan. Favored Classes: Druid and Ranger Racial Variants: Moon Elf: change +2 spot to +2 search Sun Elf: change +2 listen to +2 search, change +2 Dexterity to +2 Intelligence Wild Elf: change –2 Constitution to –2 Intelligence Not bad, I guess. I honestly think that moon elves could get away with +2 Charisma so long as they don't get the weapon proficiencies. Gnome: Racial Traits: Humanoid type (gnome subtype) Small: As a Small creature, a gnome gains a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks, but he uses smaller weapons than humans use, and his lifting and carrying limits are three-quarters of those of a Medium character. +2 racial bonus to Constitution and -2 penalty to Strength (gnomes are hearty, but as a small creature they suffer a strength penalty) Low Light Vision Gnome base land speed is 20 feet. Add +1 to the Difficulty Class for all saving throws against illusion spells cast by gnomes. This adjustment stacks with those from similar effects. +2 racial bonus on saving throws against illusions. +2 racial bonus v. poison +2 racial bonus v. spells and spell-like abilities +2 racial bonus on all spellcraft and appraisal checks +2 racial bonus on craft checks involving one sub-skill, chosen at character creation. +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against kobolds and goblinoids. +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type. Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day—speak with animals (burrowing mammal only, duration 1 minute). A gnome with a Charisma score of at least 10 also has the following spell-like abilities: 1/day—dancing lights, ghost sound, prestidigitation. Caster level 1st; save DC 10 + gnome’s Cha modifier + spell level. Automatic Languages: Gnome. Bonus Languages: Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Giant, Goblin, and Orc. In addition, a gnome can speak with a burrowing mammal (a badger, fox, rabbit, or the like, see below). This ability is innate to gnomes. See the speak with animals spell description. Favored Classes: Sorcerer and Wizard Racial Variants: Rock Gnome: lose the +2 racial bonus to saves against illusion and +1 DC for all illusion spells cast by gnomes, increase racial bonus against poison to +4, gain +2 racial bonus against disease. Forest Gnome: change +2 Constitution to +2 Wisdom Whisper Gnome: change +2 spellcraft and appraise to +2 search and move silently, change +2 Constitution to +2 Dexterity Forest and Whisper Gnomes both nullify any Value of the basic Gnome. Half-Elf: Racial Traits: Humanoid type (human and elf subtype) Medium: As Medium creatures, half-elves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. Half-elf base land speed is 30 feet. Low-light vision +2 racial bonus on diplomacy and bluff +1 racial bonus to spot, listen and survival checks. 4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level. +2 racial bonus on saving throws against enchantment spells or effects. Bonus Feat: Skill Focus (choose any two skills except diplomacy and bluff) Automatic Languages: Common or Elven. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic). Favored Classes: Any two. Racial Variants: Moon Half-Elf: change +2 diplomacy to +2 search Sun Half-Elf: change +2 bluff to +2 listen Wild: change +2 bluff and diplomacy to +2 survival and knowledge (nature) That's actually a fairly solid half-elf fix, though I think you could get away with removing the skill focus and bonus skill points, then lower the saving throw bonus to +1 and then give half-elves a basic bonus feat...that's sorta what I do anyway. Half-Orc: Racial Traits: Humanoid type (human and orc subtype) Medium: As Medium creatures, half-orcs have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. +2 racial bonus to strength and –2 Intelligence (half-orcs are very strong, but not very bright) Half-orc base land speed is 30 feet. Darkvision 60 ft. +2 racial bonus on intimidate and survival 4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level. +2 racial bonus to saves against poison and disease Automatic Languages: Common or Orc. Bonus Languages: Common, Draconic, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, and Orc. Favored Classes: Barbarian and Ranger Racial Variants: Grey Half-Orc: change –2 Intelligence to –2 Charisma, change +2 survival to +2 sense motive Mountain Half-Orc: change +2 Strength to +2 Constitution Deep Half-Orc: change Darkvision to 120 ft. So effectively it's a half-orc that can't be a wizard? I'm not sure I like that. Mechanically it seems fairly close to balanced. The Grey half-orc is also going to be heavily abused. ...and why would deep half-orcs have an intelligence penalty when deep orcs don't? I'd suggest removing the bonus skillpoints and maybe changing the deep half-orc's penalty to Wisdom (or maybe if you're feeling bold, make it LA+1) Halfling: Racial Traits: Humanoid type (halfling subtype) Small: As a Small creature, a halfling gains a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks, but she uses smaller weapons than humans use, and her lifting and carrying limits are three-quarters of those of a Medium character. +2 racial bonus to Dexterity and -2 Strength (halflings are nimble and quick, but as small creatures they are not very strong) Halfling base land speed is 20 feet. +2 racial bonus on Climb, Jump, and Move Silently checks. +2 racial bonus on Listen checks +1 racial bonus on all saving throws. +2 bonus on saving throws against fear. +1 racial bonus to hit with ranged weapons Automatic Languages: Halfling. Bonus Languages: Common, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, and Orc. Favored Classes: Rogue and Hexblade Racial Variants: Lightfoot: lose +1 racial bonus on saving throws and +2 racial bonus v. fear, gain +2 luck bonus on all saves Strongheart: gain a bonus feat Ghostwise: gain the ability to speak telepathically with any single creature within 20 ft. if a common language is shared Eh, Halflings always seemed kinda inessential to me. Overall, your races seemed balanced in comparison to eachother, but lots of the time subraces just seem to run eachother over.
Otto the Bugbear 06-02-07, 11:05 PM	My reasoning behind that the Sun Elves should get another stat bonus (and that the half-orc should get another penalty) is that one stat is not completely 100% equal to another, yes you apply both con and int everytime you level up (in hp and skill points gained) but the hp will come up much more often in a combat scenario (which in a typical DnD setting will be very often) then another skill will. Thats why I suggested another bonus into Wis or Cha as these are seen as less optimal stats and the bonuses that they provide are minor to the average combat encounter. As for the half-orc the argument is true there as well, Str is probably the best stat for a bonus out of the six, followed closely by Con and Dex. So all I was saying is that a bonus to Str being offset by a penalty to Int that is being offset by a bonus skill seems to be a little on the overpowered side, but not by much. I just thought it was a little odd. See, I know the WotC designers have made some statement to the effect that Str is more important, but running games, playing games, and designing my own material (dsenchuk.googlepages.com) flies in the face of that assumption. The fighting classes do their thing, which is stabbing foes in the face. The casters, mental stats, wield world bending, cosmic power. The only time I see Str being that much better is in the low level game (1-5). Dex is in much the same boat, whereas Con is always good, no matter what class, no matter what level. As for the bonus skills offsetting the Int penalty, well, that's part of the design. I want them to retain some heritage from both sides of the parentage. As for the lightfoot halfling, I can see that happening, or another possibility is that they get a luck domain ability for saves once per day or something like that and lose the straight up bonus on all saves. That is a good idea. 1/day reroll of a save would work nicely. And for the deep half-orc I cant really see anything to take away to balance that out, but maybe giving them Light Sensitivity or maybe even Light Blindness (they can always take a feat to reduce the penalty if they like) and that should off set the increase in range. That's good too. I'm thinking of making it 90 ft. darkvision and light sensitivity. Anyway, like I said before these are great jobs and I look forward to hearing any further imput on these. Also you have inspired me to make my own adjustments and maybe I will have you help me balance them someday... Thanks. And I'll help if I see them. (Or PM me a link. ;) ) About the stat adjustments. A Mental ability (Int, Wis, Cha) bonus balances with a mental ability penalty or a Con penalty. A Str or Dex bonus balances with a Physical ability penaltie (Str, Dex, Con) A Con bonus balances with a penalty to any ability score. It would be best to try to balance the scores out, otherwise they will get an unfair advantage. I don't buy it. I think WotC designers are smoking some really good crack when they made that statement / assumption. Strongest classes are the casters. There are no strength based casters. Yet, Str is supposedly the best stat bonus? Well, the Con bit I agree with, but only because any stat penalty should balance with any stat bonus. I guess I'll interject one more thing here as well. In my class redesigns, I've made all casters into dual-ability score casters to reduce their power a little bit. For example, a wizard will now need Int and Cha, Cleric needs Cha and Wis, Druid now needs Wis and Cha. Perhaps this skews my opinion a little bit. I can admit that. Here are my observations, they are based on comparing your races to the PHB races. Take what you will from my comments: Take what I will? Ok. Insight :lightbulb and a smile :) . The PHB Elf gets 4 Martial weapons, none of which are light weapons. You reduce those abilities by replacing 2 1h Martial weapons with a Simple weapon and 1 light weapon. There is nothing wrong with this for flavor in a campaign, but the Elf is not the strongest race in the PHB requiring a reduction of its abilities and as such should not have any of it's abilities reduced w/o at least an equivalent replacement. Yeah, I'm not sure which way I'm going to go. This draft has elves more as living with nature and living off the land. A sword is an implement of war. Not very conducive to living off the land. There's a bit of a push to eliminate the rapier as a martial weapon due to the time-frame it would be set at. The rapier was a much latter invention and so it wouldn't fit. But then I decided to make it an exotic weapon, invented by elves. I also might go back to the previous version, where elves are arcane oriented. Either way, this really isn't a big deal to me. IMO unless Elves actually sleep in your campaign, why shouldn't they be immune to sleep. It isn't the greatest immunity in the world, and it also reduces the Elf's overall abilities. The as written, the GOD OF SLEEP cannot make a PHB elf fall asleep. This is stupid in several ways. Reverie -- Respite? whatever the :censored: it's called -- is, for all mechanical purposes, sleeping. It's the :cencored: god of :censored: sleep. If the plot calls for something to attack when Elfy McElfelf is taking part of his version of "sleep", it's going to happen that way. So, mostly, changing it to +10 makes elves highly resistant to mortal magic they're likely to run into. That means magic by those 1st-3rd level NPCs. That means the legend becomes that elves are "immune", because when Joe McAdept casts sleep at an elf, it bounces. But when Zorbo McEpicWizard flings a sleep spell at a bunch of elven guards, it works. Basically I don't necessarily think your changes are a problem, but the fact that you reduce the Elf's abilities and don't provide anything to bring them back up to par. I guess. The weapon profs have never been much of an incentive to me. Then again, elves have never been much of an incentive to begin with. IMO (as well as many others) the Half-Elf is weak compared to the other races, but now you have added too much. You should at least remove the +2 racial bonus on diplomacy and bluff, as it is no longer needed with this variant Half-Elf. You should keep the Bonus Feat of a Skill Focus if you don't give them immunity to sleep spells and effects. However, IMO a +2 vs. sleep spells and effects along with the Human's skill point bonuses would effectively replace the immunity to sleep spells and effects of the PHB Half-Elf, w/o even needing the Bonus feat of a Skill Focus. It's actually quite surprising. The listed changes are the most common and most commonly accepted half-elf changes I've seen on the boards. Except the bonus feat. So I guess I could lose that. Again, IMO (as well as many others) the Half-Orc is weak compared to the other races, but now you have added slightly too much. I would not give them both the Human's bonus skill points and a +2 racial bonus on intimidate and survival. IMO the +2 racial bonus on intimidate and survival fits them better. I have a problem with a race having a penalty to Int and the Human's bonus skill points, it doesn't seem appropriate. It's just to steer half-orcs away from the classes that require Int, and away from Int skills. The bonus skill points are a bit of the human heritage showing through. The +2 racial bonus to saves against poison and disease is a good ability and flavor. I have also always thought they should have a +2 Con as well (along with bringing back the -2 Cha), but that's just my 1st and 2nd ed. part speaking. I just hate piling on too many bonuses and penalties. I intentionally avoided having more than one penalty and more than one bonus. Sounds good, lemme start by saying however that I really enjoyed your fighter fix on the Classes board. Thanks Hmm...these dwarf penalties kinda overlap eachother a little bit. The mountain dwarf needs something else to penalize it, maybe light sensitivity, just something little like that. This is more of that "Str is more important", isn't it? Not bad, I guess. I honestly think that moon elves could get away with +2 Charisma so long as they don't get the weapon proficiencies. In place of the +2 Dex? Forest and Whisper Gnomes both nullify any Value of the basic Gnome. Gnomes are so hard for me to work with, or to work on. Even with the Races of Stone. There was one point where I put... "Forest Gnome: change +2 Constitution into an Axe to the face" That's actually a fairly solid half-elf fix, though I think you could get away with removing the skill focus and bonus skill points, then lower the saving throw bonus to +1 and then give half-elves a basic bonus feat...that's sorta what I do anyway. I'm pretty sure I'm going to remove the bonus skill focus, but not the skill points. Extra skill points aren't really that big a deal. So effectively it's a half-orc that can't be a wizard? I'm not sure I like that. Mechanically it seems fairly close to balanced. The Grey half-orc is also going to be heavily abused. ...and why would deep half-orcs have an intelligence penalty when deep orcs don't? Grey half-orcs: Why is that? Due to the Con bonus? Gnomes get a Con bonus, but changing it to Dex leads to abuse there. In half-orcs, the switch from Str to Con leads to abuse? Maybe explain better if I misunderstood. Deep half-orcs: Well, this is because the adjective "deep" isn't really being used to represent the WotC deep orc, which I totally forgot even existed. I'll have to check out what they give and take some cues from that. I'd suggest removing the bonus skillpoints and maybe changing the deep half-orc's penalty to Wisdom (or maybe if you're feeling bold, make it LA+1) The skill points are going to stay, but I'll see what deep orcs give for penalties and possibly change it. Eh, Halflings always seemed kinda inessential to me. Heh. Gnomes seem that way to me. Even the planetouched versions gave me fits. No, wait. The planetouched version of gnomes are still giving me fits. Overall, your races seemed balanced in comparison to eachother, but lots of the time subraces just seem to run eachother over. I hear ya. I might drop down to only two sub-races each instead. That would make it easier for certain. Thanks for the input everyone. Good ideas and suggestions so far. If I'm feeling ambitious, I'll edit the original post in the morning to reflect a lot of the changes. Cheers Otto :)
Omega_Grey 06-03-07, 08:57 AM	The only time I see Str being that much better is in the low level game (1-5). Dex is in much the same boat, whereas Con is always good, no matter what class, no matter what level. I agree completely, in fact I have always felt that Dex needed to have something to help it keep up the Str and Con more, but I have never been able to decide what and how. Because frankly that static bonus to AC just doesn't cut it at higher levels, and no one really cares about initiative that much anyway. As for the bonus skills offsetting the Int penalty, well, that's part of the design. I want them to retain some heritage from both sides of the parentage. I am beginning to see your side of the argument there. I don't buy it. I think WotC designers are smoking some really good crack when they made that statement / assumption. Strongest classes are the casters. There are no strength based casters. Yet, Str is supposedly the best stat bonus? Well, the Con bit I agree with, but only because any stat penalty should balance with any stat bonus. I guess I'll interject one more thing here as well. In my class redesigns, I've made all casters into dual-ability score casters to reduce their power a little bit. For example, a wizard will now need Int and Cha, Cleric needs Cha and Wis, Druid now needs Wis and Cha. Perhaps this skews my opinion a little bit. I can admit that. Well on the plus side you make Cha are much more important stat in the game, and if it works for you then more power to you. Personally I don't think I would do that, mostly as a flavor thing, I can understand maybe clerics needing a little bit of personal confidence and sense of self and all that to help manage all that divine power, but since their turning ability is already keyed to that I think that is enough. But as I said more power to you. Personally I have never seen a time when the magic user was an obviously superior character build to a smash 'em type. Then again when I play (either as a DM or a player) my party doesn't tend to try to one up each other (unless it is Tim, but he always just plays the barbarian anyway) so I suppose I may have never seen a truly optimized build of one vs the other. Yeah, I'm not sure which way I'm going to go. This draft has elves more as living with nature and living off the land. A sword is an implement of war. Not very conducive to living off the land. There's a bit of a push to eliminate the rapier as a martial weapon due to the time-frame it would be set at. The rapier was a much latter invention and so it wouldn't fit. But then I decided to make it an exotic weapon, invented by elves. I also might go back to the previous version, where elves are arcane oriented. Either way, this really isn't a big deal to me. Maybe follow the weapon proficiencies presented for the wild elf in Races of Fearun? If I remember right it is something like the bows, spears, and javelins. Also maybe throw in the hand axe, since thanks to a certain book we all read in 4th grade we all know how useful it is in surviving in the wilderness. The as written, the GOD OF SLEEP cannot make a PHB elf fall asleep. This is stupid in several ways. Reverie -- Respite? whatever the :censored: it's called -- is, for all mechanical purposes, sleeping. It's the :cencored: god of :censored: sleep. If the plot calls for something to attack when Elfy McElfelf is taking part of his version of "sleep", it's going to happen that way. So, mostly, changing it to +10 makes elves highly resistant to mortal magic they're likely to run into. That means magic by those 1st-3rd level NPCs. That means the legend becomes that elves are "immune", because when Joe McAdept casts sleep at an elf, it bounces. But when Zorbo McEpicWizard flings a sleep spell at a bunch of elven guards, it works. I like it a lot actually, I seem to recall reading in the Summoning series for the Forgotten Realms that the main character was an elf but he actually slept quite a bit do to his mingling with shadow magic, showing that the Reverie is more of a mental exercise that elves undertake every night vs a natural replacement for sleep. Meaning that while they can sleep, they just learned a better way to do it with conscious effort. Gnomes are so hard for me to work with, or to work on. Even with the Races of Stone. There was one point where I put... "Forest Gnome: change +2 Constitution into an Axe to the face" I love it, I think that is the racial stat adjustment I am going to use from now on. Heh. Gnomes seem that way to me. Even the planetouched versions gave me fits. No, wait. The planetouched version of gnomes are still giving me fits. Again, I second that.
Otto the Bugbear 06-03-07, 09:26 AM	First, I updated the original post with some of the suggestions presented. A couple places I'm fairly certain on, while others not so much. For instance, the gnomes in general and the halfling variants are still very much up in the air. I am beginning to see your side of the argument there. :cool: Well on the plus side you make Cha are much more important stat in the game, and if it works for you then more power to you. Personally I don't think I would do that, mostly as a flavor thing, I can understand maybe clerics needing a little bit of personal confidence and sense of self and all that to help manage all that divine power, but since their turning ability is already keyed to that I think that is enough. But as I said more power to you. Personally I have never seen a time when the magic user was an obviously superior character build to a smash 'em type. Then again when I play (either as a DM or a player) my party doesn't tend to try to one up each other (unless it is Tim, but he always just plays the barbarian anyway) so I suppose I may have never seen a truly optimized build of one vs the other. Yeah. Experiences will vary. I just see too much of characters able to cast spells (which are very powerful in their own right), plus be pretty good at smash-em-up at the same time. Dual casting smashes that concept up pretty well. In fact, characters that wish to be gish (caster plus melee) find that they're nearly always better off concentrating on only one casting stat and focusing on buffs. The main casting stat deals with highest spell level castable, while the second deals with DCs. So, a gish or combat cleric for example, would ignore the DCs and just focus on buffing spells, since the DC for those is meaningless. I very nearly switched casters back to single stat casting after switching one of my characters to dual casting. It was a shifter druid (with all the racial substitution levels) and I was previously able to just dump Cha completely. After the switch to dual casting stats, it looked horrible. It wasn't until I had it pointed out to me that I achieved the intended result that I left it as dual stats. The intended result being, of course, a reduction in one or the other, casting or bashing, for those type of classes. Maybe follow the weapon proficiencies presented for the wild elf in Races of Fearun? If I remember right it is something like the bows, spears, and javelins. Also maybe throw in the hand axe, since thanks to a certain book we all read in 4th grade we all know how useful it is in surviving in the wilderness. Great idea. So, if I go with the wilderness version of elves, it'll be bows, spears, javelins and hand axes. If I go with the arcane version, it'll switch back to the PHB weapons. Nice. I like it a lot actually, I seem to recall reading in the Summoning series for the Forgotten Realms that the main character was an elf but he actually slept quite a bit do to his mingling with shadow magic, showing that the Reverie is more of a mental exercise that elves undertake every night vs a natural replacement for sleep. Meaning that while they can sleep, they just learned a better way to do it with conscious effort. Yep. There have been other instances of elves sleeping as well. It's rare, but it does happen. I love it, I think that is the racial stat adjustment I am going to use from now on. :devil: Again, I second that. In the opening post section on gnomes, I mention switching them to a darker feel. More necromancy, illusion and stealth. Think Hexblade, Beguiler, Rogue, and Shadowcaster. I'd like to get everyone's thoughts on that before going full-bore into the change.
AMGriffin 06-03-07, 05:20 PM	Grey half-orcs: Why is that? Due to the Con bonus? Gnomes get a Con bonus, but changing it to Dex leads to abuse there. In half-orcs, the switch from Str to Con leads to abuse? Maybe explain better if I misunderstood. Nonono. Grey half-orcs have no intelligence penalty, but still get the human bonus skill points. They're effect trading a feat for a strength bonus, darkvision, and plenty of other orc goodies. Just pointing that out. That said, I'll let you work out your fixes and I'll give ya input.
Otto the Bugbear 06-03-07, 07:11 PM	Ah. I see. Hmm... Grey Half-Orc: change -2 Intelligence to -2 Charisma, remove bonus skill points, change +2 to intimidate to +4 bonus to intimidate.
Omega_Grey 06-03-07, 07:17 PM	In the opening post section on gnomes, I mention switching them to a darker feel. More necromancy, illusion and stealth. Think Hexblade, Beguiler, Rogue, and Shadowcaster. A few years ago Dragon Magazine had an issue dedicated to gnomes that had a variant like that. It was a subset of gnomes that traded in their illusion powers for power over necromancy, I never used the variant but it did seem useful to help give the gnomes some more flavor. But I cannot help you with gnomes at all, I am afraid that my years of racial bias towards them has left me with a slanted view, just remember that halfling has favored class rouge for a reason while gnome does not.
Omega_Grey 06-03-07, 07:20 PM	Ah. I see. Hmm... Grey Half-Orc: change -2 Intelligence to -2 Charisma, remove bonus skill points, change +2 to intimidate to +4 bonus to intimidate. Maybe change the +4 to intimidate variant to keeping +2 and gaining Skill Focus (Intimidate) instead. Having an overall increase of 1 higher then you propose but being offset by the fact that you cant take skill focus more then once for a skill.
Otto the Bugbear 06-04-07, 12:35 PM	A few years ago Dragon Magazine had an issue dedicated to gnomes that had a variant like that. It was a subset of gnomes that traded in their illusion powers for power over necromancy, I never used the variant but it did seem useful to help give the gnomes some more flavor. But I cannot help you with gnomes at all, I am afraid that my years of racial bias towards them has left me with a slanted view, just remember that halfling has favored class rouge for a reason while gnome does not. I'll have to go digging through my back issues then. That might just be the thing to bring them over to the dark side. Maybe change the +4 to intimidate variant to keeping +2 and gaining Skill Focus (Intimidate) instead. Having an overall increase of 1 higher then you propose but being offset by the fact that you cant take skill focus more then once for a skill. That might work, though +5 seems like a bit much. (Which is strange considering +4 does not, to me at least.) I may do that anyway, as intimidate doesn't really see much use considering the standard action it takes to use it, and then only within threatened range. -=-=-=-= edit: I was thinking a little more about the elven sleep thing. I may just change it to a scaling ability, and then come up with something similar for the other demi-humans. Elves are highly resistant to sleep magic. As they advance, they become more resistant, and eventually immune, to sleep spells and effects. [list] All elves gain a +6 racial bonus to resist sleep effects. At ECL 8, they also gain Spell Resistance 10 + ECL against sleep effects. At ECL 15, elves become immune to sleep spells and effects. I could also do the same thing for half-orcs v. disease, and possibly come up with a way to do it for other races as well.
Otto the Bugbear 06-07-07, 12:40 PM	A quick :bump: to pimp the newest changes. I reduced the races to only the base race + two racial variants. Much easier that way. I also changed a few other little things around, a lot of which were based on suggestions made in this thread. Thanks for all the help given so far. Cheers Otto :)
mtbOgre 06-07-07, 06:54 PM	A quick :bump: to pimp the newest changes. I reduced the races to only the base race + two racial variants. Much easier that way. I also changed a few other little things around, a lot of which were based on suggestions made in this thread. Thanks for all the help given so far. Cheers Otto :) Ok, I'll bite a little bit here on a suggestion. Do Gnomes and halflings both have to have racial variants? For that matter they are so darned close in a lot of ways you can almost make gnomes a sub-race of halflings. It seems to me the the proliferation of complication is to the detriment of the game.
Otto the Bugbear 06-10-07, 09:01 AM	Ok, I'll bite a little bit here on a suggestion. Do Gnomes and halflings both have to have racial variants? For that matter they are so darned close in a lot of ways you can almost make gnomes a sub-race of halflings. It seems to me the the proliferation of complication is to the detriment of the game. To be fair, they need to have the same amount of racial variants as the other races. And, to be perfectly clear, these racial variants aren't actually visibly different when I run games. They're just customization options for the players to choose from (or the DM for important NPCs), to help out when creating their characters. You could literally face a dozen elves, mixed at 5 moon elves, 3 sun elves, and 4 wild elves, and the PCs wouldn't be able to tell the difference from visual clues. Or even from mannerisms, personalities, or anything else like that. As for the 'proliferation of complication' comment, well, how is something this insignificant actually adding that much complication to the game, considering the amount of complication that already exists? It's like throwing a grain of sand onto a mountain.
Finfreeze 06-10-07, 02:55 PM	The only problems I see concern the default elf. It's even weaker than it was before. I say give the elf three free simple or martial proficiencies to be spent on any weapon type, and allow the elf to trade in the three simple/martial weapon proficiencies to be automatically proficient with one exotic weapon. That way the weapon proficiencies remain helpful for martial classes like rangers and fighters. It may be best to give the elf something that reinforces its favored class in some way. Right now, what limited flavor abilities they have seem to put them as wilderness rogues or maybe monks.
Otto the Bugbear 06-11-07, 08:38 PM	Oops. I didn't mention it, but I'm planning on using the suggestion by Omega Grey or back to the PHB style weapon proficiencies, depending upon which flavor text I go with for elves. If I go with the nature flavor text, they'll get proficiency with normal bows (not crossbows, not exotic bows), spears, javelins and hand axes. If I go with the arcane flavor text, they'll get proficiency with rapier, long sword and bows.
Omega_Grey 06-12-07, 12:52 PM	Hey Otto, did you realize that you gave the gnome a +1 to the DC of illusion spells twice?
mtbOgre 06-12-07, 04:06 PM	To be fair, they need to have the same amount of racial variants as the other races. And, to be perfectly clear, these racial variants aren't actually visibly different when I run games. They're just customization options for the players to choose from (or the DM for important NPCs), to help out when creating their characters. You could literally face a dozen elves, mixed at 5 moon elves, 3 sun elves, and 4 wild elves, and the PCs wouldn't be able to tell the difference from visual clues. Or even from mannerisms, personalities, or anything else like that. As for the 'proliferation of complication' comment, well, how is something this insignificant actually adding that much complication to the game, considering the amount of complication that already exists? It's like throwing a grain of sand onto a mountain. Fair enough... and since this is all done at build time it's really not that big of a deal. I was frustrated with something else when I posted the comment about complication. Having a couple small racial changes at build time is indeed a grain of sand when compared to the rest.
Omega_Grey 06-13-07, 01:43 AM	Never mind, apparently I never learned how to read english properly (or french for that matter).
ragoftag 06-14-07, 06:37 PM	Interesting! What's the 'fluff' concerning Gnomes and Necromancy in your world?
Otto the Bugbear 06-15-07, 12:25 PM	Hey Otto, did you realize that you gave the gnome a +1 to the DC of illusion spells twice? Never mind, apparently I never learned how to read english properly (or french for that matter). ;) Fair enough... and since this is all done at build time it's really not that big of a deal. I was frustrated with something else when I posted the comment about complication. Having a couple small racial changes at build time is indeed a grain of sand when compared to the rest. Ok. Interesting! What's the 'fluff' concerning Gnomes and Necromancy in your world? I'm not entirely certain yet. Right now I'm thinking of an ancient past where they might have been formed from dwarven stock, and... changed... in significant ways toward the darker arts. Another idea is to have gnomes hailing from the lands of Moil, where necromancy is very potent. Once upon a time, gnomes lived almost exclusively in that region, and as a result they have a stronger connection with necromancy, rather than illusion. Of course, I could just go with a different version of the illusion connection. You know, the one that boils down to "gnomes have a knack for illusion just because". ;)
ragoftag 06-16-07, 12:10 PM	Again, interesting! My Gnomes are a race long fragmented, with feral colonies in some areas, tribes in certain forests of the elves, artisans building the future in steampunk, the stock Illusionists, civilized craftsmen, sky sailors, and several others. Exact features vary by origin. A fascination with necromancy could work in well. All I do is switch bonuses and favored Classes.
Qwicksilver 07-03-07, 02:21 AM	Hey, I'll start out by saying that like most of your changes. The Half-Orc and Half-Elf changes are both good, much needed additions and I do note that it's interesting to compare your Half-Elf fix to many others', as it seems like Half-Elf fixes seem to converge on a number of traits, most often +1 to skill points per level. I definitely agree with your change for the main Dwarf race to be -dex instead of cha, as I feel that dwarves are more universally clumsy than grumpy. I also feel that dwarves should be encouraged to have dwarven paladins and bards in their ranks more so than dwarven rogues or rangers. It seems to fit their character more. About elves, I feel that their abilities still do not make up for their hit to con, as I feel that it's the most important stat in the game. Because of this, I think your wild elf variant will be much more popular, as shifting -2 con to -2 int would be advantageous for dextrous combatants, and classes that do not rely on int as their caster stat (not taking your magic variant into account). Perhaps widening the scope of their + to saving throws beyond necromancy effects may serve to improve them. I personally considered switching the srd dwarves and elves bonuses to saving throws with each other, giving dwarves +2 vs enchantments and elves +2 vs spells and spell-like effects. Being wizards, I would reason that their race has built up a natural resistance to magic as the elves train themselves with magic generation after generation. Being strong willed, I also reason that dwarves would more likely be able to resist enchantments than all spells. (note: I don't know what the wizards designers were thinking when they stated that str was most important, there are relatively few traits that all characters must rely on for it. Because con affects HP and Fort save, both very important for all characters, I feel it should take the spot as most important stat.) I agree with your +10 to sleep effects change, for the same reasons you noted. Lastly, I wanted to ask why so many of the races get bonus to necromancy spells. Gnome specifically caught my eye as I kind of don't see why they should get a bonus vs. necromancy. Edit: ah I just read your post above... But still mechanically, why necromancy effects?
Otto the Bugbear 07-03-07, 12:55 PM	Hey, I'll start out by saying that like most of your changes. The Half-Orc and Half-Elf changes are both good, much needed additions and I do note that it's interesting to compare your Half-Elf fix to many others', as it seems like Half-Elf fixes seem to converge on a number of traits, most often +1 to skill points per level. Yeah. I read a lot of suggestions on this board, and the UA / House Rules board for those two fixes. I definitely agree with your change for the main Dwarf race to be -dex instead of cha, as I feel that dwarves are more universally clumsy than grumpy. I also feel that dwarves should be encouraged to have dwarven paladins and bards in their ranks more so than dwarven rogues or rangers. It seems to fit their character more. Exactly right. About elves, I feel that their abilities still do not make up for their hit to con, as I feel that it's the most important stat in the game. Because of this, I think your wild elf variant will be much more popular, as shifting -2 con to -2 int would be advantageous for dextrous combatants, and classes that do not rely on int as their caster stat (not taking your magic variant into account). Perhaps widening the scope of their + to saving throws beyond necromancy effects may serve to improve them. I personally considered switching the srd dwarves and elves bonuses to saving throws with each other, giving dwarves +2 vs enchantments and elves +2 vs spells and spell-like effects. Being wizards, I would reason that their race has built up a natural resistance to magic as the elves train themselves with magic generation after generation. Being strong willed, I also reason that dwarves would more likely be able to resist enchantments than all spells. When I read this, it popped into my head to remove the elves' -2 Con, and put a -2 Int / -2 Wis / -2 Cha (one for each variant) in its place. Then, it can still fit for either a nature race, or a wizardly race, and doesn't have that stigma of the -2 Con to it. (note: I don't know what the wizards designers were thinking when they stated that str was most important, there are relatively few traits that all characters must rely on for it. Because con affects HP and Fort save, both very important for all characters, I feel it should take the spot as most important stat.) You, me, and about a zillion other people. I agree with your +10 to sleep effects change, for the same reasons you noted. Lastly, I wanted to ask why so many of the races get bonus to necromancy spells. Gnome specifically caught my eye as I kind of don't see why they should get a bonus vs. necromancy. Edit: ah I just read your post above... But still mechanically, why necromancy effects? Just to be different. The elf bonus to resist necromancy is because of how strongly they are tied to nature/life. The gnome bonus is because as a race they've always fiddled with necromancy. Gnome = necromancy is basically just as arbitrary as gnome = illusion.
Qwicksilver 07-04-07, 08:36 PM	When I read this, it popped into my head to remove the elves' -2 Con, and put a -2 Int / -2 Wis / -2 Cha (one for each variant) in its place. Then, it can still fit for either a nature race, or a wizardly race, and doesn't have that stigma of the -2 Con to it. Nice fix, however I think some people are going to be arguing against it just because elves (Tolkien elves specifically) are not just known for not having any detriments, they're known for being good at everything. Of course that's Tolkien elves which someone once noted have to be at least half-celestial or something. It's a good easy fix, though. I would favor providing more non-stat bonuses to compensate.
Otto the Bugbear 07-06-07, 12:16 PM	Nice fix, however I think some people are going to be arguing against it just because elves (Tolkien elves specifically) are not just known for not having any detriments, they're known for being good at everything. Of course that's Tolkien elves which someone once noted have to be at least half-celestial or something. It's a good easy fix, though. I would favor providing more non-stat bonuses to compensate. Yeah, but to those people, elf = paragon template. Ok, ok, that's a slight exaggeration. very slight The non-stat bonuses would be the stuff listed already. After all, it's easy to tailor your elf character to get a -2 in a place you don't care that much about.
Leo 07-06-07, 01:31 PM	Why swashbuckler for halfling's favored class? Halflings don't like to fight head on. I think they would be much more inclined to being rangers, since they love to travel, nature and being versatile.
Aubri 07-07-07, 01:35 AM	My brother and I worked out some changes last year, see what you think... Half-Elf * Immunity to sleep effects * +2 racial bonus on saving throws against enchantment spells or effects * Low-Light Vision * Bonus feat from a list (basically, any of the ones that gives you +2 to 2 related skills.) * +1 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks * Elven Blood * Favored Class: Any Half-Orc * +2 Strength, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma (negotiable) * +1 Skill Point per level, 4 at 1st level * +2 on Fortitude saves vs Massive Damage, Coup de Grace, and pain effects (such as Symbol of Pain, Pain Touch, or Recall Agony). * Endurance as a bonus feat * Darkvision 60 ft * Weapon Familiarity: Orc Double Axe * Orcish blood * Favored Class: Barbarian