Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ninja_Ferret 04-03-08, 10:24 PM	Whats a good race that will complement the scout very well. up to a +2 LA please.
Lotus Crane 04-03-08, 10:52 PM	Catfolk (MiniHB or RotW) are a good choice at LA +1. Especially if you decide to multiclass ranger and take the Swift Hunter (CSco) feat, since catfolk have favored class: ranger.
Ninja_Ferret 04-03-08, 10:54 PM	Yeah I have been thinking that. My idea was to do the ranger/scout. I didnt know Catfolk where Ranger favored. That might make my decision for me. Also I have been told of this Unseele fey or something. I cant seem to find it anywhere.
Shaggy_Shaggs 04-03-08, 11:16 PM	Goblin would be good as a scout. No LA, more class levels, sweet. If you want to go with something that does have LA, a Shadow Creature (LA+2, Lords of Madness) human might be nice. Shadow Goblin would be kind of redundant.
pigknight 04-03-08, 11:39 PM	Drow, Elf, Human, or Kobold.
Maeglin_Dubh 04-03-08, 11:59 PM	Whisper gnome, perhaps?
Amaril 04-04-08, 07:24 AM	I'll second the kobold, but I'll add that you should use the additional racial features from the Races of the Dragon Web Enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a).
Orchomenos 04-04-08, 08:13 AM	If you're not totally against psionic, a Xeph could be good. Good dex, 30' base speed, and can have a burst of speed. Also, with a good wisdom, you can have the feat Speed of Thought that gives you a +10' Inherent bonus to speed.
Krusk 04-04-08, 08:32 AM	While my first suggestion is catfolk, thats been said. A Ghost scout might actually not be all that bad. Scout relies on a ghost can essentially move anywhere. it depends on your level though, as at low levels being able to touch things is also important.
Spikes01k 04-04-08, 09:12 AM	Catfolk (MiniHB or RotW) are a good choice at LA +1. Especially if you decide to multiclass ranger and take the Swift Hunter (CSco) feat, since catfolk have favored class: ranger. Although it seems strange, dark creature template, tomb of magic/lords of madness would be really nice. Hide in plane sight is good if you want to sneak. Its LA+1 so that would bring you to LA +2 total.
Ninja_Ferret 04-04-08, 11:31 AM	The reason i said no Psi wasnt on my part. It was the GMs. So yeah I now have a Dark Catfolk Scout 4 / Ranger 6. :D Just trying to round it out (GM gave a +2 LA free so yeah) getting some help from the Swift hunter hand book and such. Was just checking if there where any decent templates for a +1 >.< Dark seems pretty darn nice.
SilverFoxKnows 04-05-08, 01:01 PM	I would have gone for Goblin. No LA, 30 move, Darkvision, +4 racial to Move Silently, +4 Hide from size.
ogdu 04-05-08, 01:23 PM	i have to agree with catfolk. i played one as a straight scout for some time and he was totally awesome. your movement is nuts, dex bonus and move bonus is worth the LA. going ranged, you will often be the ultimo hombre due to your skirting around the battlefield taking potshots at everyone. precise shot is a no-brainer, and i found defensive archery (+4 vs. AoO) to be my best friends. if your DM keeps track of ammo be sure to pack extra quivers because you will blow through arrows like crazy. i'm sure there are other races that are good as well, but catfolk definitely gets my #1 vote for ranged scout. i personally don't think the multi-class is worth it, as the scout has nice abilities at many levels. sure you'll be great vs. favored enemies, but pure is pretty darn good against everything. anyway, that's my 2cp...
Ninja_Ferret 04-05-08, 01:29 PM	Well the thing with going Ranger is the swift hunter feat from CS. Which I pick up favored enemies as Constructs, undead and such Immune to crits/Precision damage. Thus I can now get my skirmish damage against them as well ;) its so nice.
Lotus Crane 04-05-08, 01:47 PM	i personally don't think the multi-class is worth it, as the scout has nice abilities at many levels. Look at the Swift Hunter feat from Complete Scoundrel. Thanks to that, ranger levels actually stack with scout levels for getting a lot of their goodies, and vice versa. Back to the OP, one thing to keep in mind when multiclassing ranger for Swift Hunter, is that it's a pretty decent idea to take the champion of the wild alternate class feature from Complete Champion, and the distracting attack alternate class feature from the PHB II. Your spellcasting and animal companion would be even weaker than normal by multiclassing, since they depend on ranger level, so why not "cheat" by substituting in benefits that don't depend on level, such as extra bonus feats and a non-level-based special attack?
The_Shaman 04-05-08, 02:28 PM	Catfolk is great. Goblin, especially one of the Unearthed Arcana variants - Air Goblin - is also nice. Wood elves aren't too bad either, especially with the RotW 1st ranger level sub and swift hunter. Humans and the MoI dusklings (can pump their speed higher, get some cute incarnum tricks and nice ability adjustments) deserve a honorary mention too.
pindanin01 04-05-08, 11:21 PM	I like the goliath scout. But I do not go archer route. I go melee.
Spikes01k 04-05-08, 11:25 PM	I like the goliath scout. But I do not go archer route. I go melee. I tried that, but I kept on dropping. Not enough HP.
AZNsupermarket 04-06-08, 06:27 AM	My vote would be for strongheart halfling for the bonus feat, but only if you can convince your dm that scout and rogue should count as the same thing in terms of a favored class (because no race has favored class from any "complete" series book)
Poison_Dusk 04-06-08, 10:52 AM	Scout Hanbook (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=584572)
Shadowhowler 04-06-08, 12:31 PM	Back to the OP, one thing to keep in mind when multiclassing ranger for Swift Hunter, is that it's a pretty decent idea to take the champion of the wild alternate class feature from Complete Champion, and the distracting attack alternate class feature from the PHB II. Your spellcasting and animal companion would be even weaker than normal by multiclassing, since they depend on ranger level, so why not "cheat" by substituting in benefits that don't depend on level, such as extra bonus feats and a non-level-based special attack? I agree about the Distracting Shot feature... ESPECIALY if you have a Rogue in your party... you can set up some nice situations. I don't know what the Champion of the Wild does... I don't have Complete Champion. However, assuming it replaces your Ranger spellcasting, I'd say it better be pretty damn awesome to make it worth it. There are some Archery specific Ranger spells that are just too cool to give up Easily. Arrow Mind and Sniper Shot to name just two, and those are both first level. VERY effective for a Scout/Ranger Build focused on archery.
Xealot 04-06-08, 12:36 PM	Can someone please explain the Swift Hunter feat and how it affect the Ranger/Scout multiclass build?
seventh_scroll 04-06-08, 01:40 PM	I don't know what the Champion of the Wild does... I don't have Complete Champion. However, assuming it replaces your Ranger spellcasting, I'd say it better be pretty damn awesome to make it worth it. If I remember correctly, the non-spellcasting (champion of the wild) variant drops spellcasting, and gives you a +10 enhancement bonus to speed when less than heavily encumbered at level 6, and a small slew of spell like abilities at later levels. Distracting attack is also a decent option. You'd lose your animal companion(wich the ranger got stiffed on anyway) in exchange for the ability to treat any opponent you hit with a ranged attack as Flanked. Solitary hunter is also an option, dropping animal companion for the ability to apply Favored Enemy bonus to attack rolls, as well as all rolls it normally applies to.
Lotus Crane 04-06-08, 01:46 PM	I don't know what the Champion of the Wild does... I don't have Complete Champion. However, assuming it replaces your Ranger spellcasting, I'd say it better be pretty damn awesome to make it worth it. There are some Archery specific Ranger spells that are just too cool to give up Easily. Arrow Mind and Sniper Shot to name just two, and those are both first level. VERY effective for a Scout/Ranger Build focused on archery. It replaces the spellcasting with bonus feats at 4th, 8th, 11th, and 14th. You can choose from among a few generic ranger-type feats, and from another pool of feats related to the combat style you've chosen. Now, normally for a straight ranger, I would always keep the spellcasting, because yeah, as you've already mentioned, a few of the better ranger spells are what makes the ranger competitive with (or IMHO, better than) the fighter at archery. However, spellcasting is one of those class features that improve exponentially; having 3/3/3/3 (+bonus for Wis) spells per day at ranger 20th is several orders of better than having 0+bonus spells per day at ranger 4th - going by a probable total number of spell levels worth, let's arbitrarily state this value as 40 times better. On the other hand, feats are generally viewed as improving linearly, having 4 feats at ranger 14th is 4 times better than having 1 feat at ranger 4th (well, maybe 5-6 times better, if you attribute more value to higher-end feats). And certainly, I would take casting up to 4th level spells over 4 feats, considering both the raw power of spells, and the flexibility of changing those 16 spells (is it fair to expect Wis 18 by 20th level?) to meet the expected challenges of each new day. But we're not talking about a straight ranger here. At ranger 4th, 0+bonus (ie 1) 1st level spells is in all likelihood, actually less useful than a bonus combat feat that can be used all day. This is especially true if we're assuming a higher-level multiclassed build, such as scout 4/ranger 4 - a 1st level spell at CL 2 might be alright at 4th character/party level, but it's nearly useless at 8th character/party level. Assuming a final build of either scout 12/ranger 8 or scout 8/ranger 12, we're looking at losing 1/0+bonus spells (CL 4 at 20th character/party level) for 2 feats, or 1/1/1+bonus spells (CL 6 at 20th character/party level) for 3 feats. Either way, it's not looking too good. You could try to force the most spellcasting mileage out of this setup by taking Practiced Spellcaster and trying to boost your Wis as high as possible, but that isn't all the practical, which I'll explain next. Remember, the most precious commodity in D&D is still actions per round. Barring crazy celerity, time stop, or Swiftblade cheese, there are very few ways to get around the fact that you can only do so much in a given period of time. This is the one and only reason why do-it-alls (like the factotum and Chameleon) and hybrids (Mystic Theurge, Fochlucan Lyrist) aren't nearly as powerful in play as they look on paper - it doesn't matter if you can do anything, because in a single round of combat, you can't do everything. So we have a scout/ranger with Swift Hunter, and if he knows what he's doing, Greater Manyshot. That's a commitment to spending every round using a move action to activate skirmish, and a standard action to semi-full-attack (and with GM, every attack roll is separate and can have precision damage applied individually) at range. The DPS output with this tactic is incredible, better than what a straight scout or ranger could normally do (scout due to lack of BAB for that 4th Manyshot arrow, and possibly favored enemy, ranger due to lack of skirmish). Even if you could cast arrow mind and arrow storm (which you may not actually be able to in a multiclassed build), they may not even be as efficient a use of actions as just continuing to fire away. On the other hand, the benefits of many feats can apply at once. Having 2-3 extra feats may allow you to fit Aquatic Shot or Woodland Archery into your build, which means that you'll be able to abuse Greater Manyshot skirmishing that much more often. Another less obvious benefit of taking feats instead of spellcasting, is that you can use Wis as a dump stat if necessary (with low point buy, standard array, or back luck rolls, this could happen more often than you'd like). Normal spellcasting rangers typically want to start with Wis 14, and boost it up to 18 at 20th character level with magic items. But hey, if you can sink a 10 or 8 into it because you can't cast spells anyway, then that frees up your stats (and gold) for prioritizing physical ability scores. Optimizing builds is about working with specific circumstances in mind. For example, as I've already stated in another thread, normally I would agree that sorcerer is overall a stronger class than beguiler. But if I wanted to build an Ultimate Magus, I would always pick beguiler/wizard over sorcerer/wizard as my starting point, because for the purposes of the overall build, beguiler just works much better, due to Int synergy, and the fact that it allows me to specialize on the wizard side (conjurer, with enchantment and illusion prohibited) without actually losing access to anything.
Shadowhowler 04-06-08, 06:38 PM	Solitary hunter is also an option, dropping animal companion for the ability to apply Favored Enemy bonus to attack rolls, as well as all rolls it normally applies to. Now THAT sounds nice... where is that found?
Shadowhowler 04-06-08, 06:45 PM	It replaces the spellcasting with bonus feats at 4th, 8th, 11th, and 14th. You can choose from among a few generic ranger-type feats, and from another pool of feats related to the combat style you've chosen. Now, normally for a straight ranger, I would always keep the spellcasting, because yeah, as you've already mentioned, a few of the better ranger spells are what makes the ranger competitive with (or IMHO, better than) the fighter at archery. . Assuming a final build of either scout 12/ranger 8 or scout 8/ranger 12 Most people who take Ranger/Scout with Swift Hunter will only take 4 levels of Scout and 16 levels of Ranger. So your end spellcasting will be 2/2/1/1 + your wisdom mod. However, the two really good spells for the Ranger/Scout archer are actualy both 1st level, being arrow mind and sniper shot. Sniper shot especialy could be really nasty and helpful. However, you'd be trading those spells for 4 feats... and feats are good, and archers can ALWAYS use more feats. I guess I would have to see the list of feats I could chose from to decide if it would be worth giving up my Ranger Spells for them... but I could see it being a good trade.
The_Shaman 04-06-08, 07:18 PM	Now THAT sounds nice... where is that found? Dragon Magazine. I think it was previewed in the Crystalkeep.com base classes compendium, as a ranger variant feature. @Shadowhowler: The feats were ok, but even if you used the Rokugan CS sub variant - which allows rangers to take any fighter feat - I'd still prefer spells. There are a few that are imo really good, such as Hunter's Mercy, and being able to use wands, scrolls or other items is also worth quite a bit.
Shadowhowler 04-06-08, 07:28 PM	@Shadowhowler: The feats were ok, but even if you used the Rokugan CS sub variant - which allows rangers to take any fighter feat - I'd still prefer spells. There are a few that are imo really good, such as Hunter's Mercy, and being able to use wands, scrolls or other items is also worth quite a bit. I agree. Thats why I was skeptical of switching out the Ranger Spellcasting in the first place, and said I would like to see the list of feats to chose from before I would decided if I thought the switch was worth it. It you want to make a Magic-less Ranger Type... Ranger/Scout Swift Hunter and this Feat for spells replacement is probably the way to go. However, for Archers... there are just so many good ranger spells I would be hard pressed to wanna dump em.
selenia 04-07-08, 02:56 AM	Poisondusk lizarfolk from mm3 is also a very nice race with favoured class ranger(which is good for swift hunters). It has LA +1. If you want a melee swift hunter, try taking one (or two if you have problems with multiclassing) lvls cleric for travel devotion.(Complete Champion)
The_Shaman 04-07-08, 09:32 AM	I'd suggest cloistered cleric from UA. Neither gets a BAB increase at level one, and the Cloistered cleric gets some extra goodies. However, I could simply imagine you taking travel devotion as a feat. Hey, speaking of UA and swift hunter, would the feat work with the PrC version of the ranger from that book? You can enter the ranger PrC with a cleric/scout/fighter combo, thus getting turn undead for Travel Devotion.
Poison_Dusk 04-07-08, 12:14 PM	Poisondusk lizarfolk from mm3 is also a very nice race with favoured class ranger(which is good for swift hunters). It has LA +1. If you want a melee swift hunter, try taking one (or two if you have problems with multiclassing) lvls cleric for travel devotion.(Complete Champion) Can't agree more.
Ogiwan 04-08-08, 10:32 AM	I'm surpised nobody has mentioned this: Shifter. Specifically, a Longstride shifter. +2 racial bonus to dex, an additional +2 while shifting, +10 feet to speed while shifting (+20 if you take Longstride Elite), favored class is Ranger, and you can PrC into the Reachrunner. I'm not at home, so I can't reference all my books, but if you want a fast Scout, I think this'll work.
Xiuhcoatl 04-08-08, 11:43 AM	Though it is a bit expensive, due to racial HD and +2 LA .... the Thri'kreen make rather nice scouts. With natural armor, a nice dex bonus, and amazing jumping abilities (+34 bonus after speed and racial bonuses), they make a rather nice scout-type.
The_Shaman 04-08-08, 06:12 PM	I'm surpised nobody has mentioned this: Shifter. Specifically, a Longstride shifter. +2 racial bonus to dex, an additional +2 while shifting, +10 feet to speed while shifting (+20 if you take Longstride Elite), favored class is Ranger, and you can PrC into the Reachrunner. You're right, it is quite good - I was never quite good at Eberron material. Speaking of settings, by the way, what about Oriental Adventures? The Hengeyoukai offer hybrid and animal form at LA 0 (with the Dragon 318 update), the Vanara have stealth, movement, and climb abilities, spirit folk have useful wilderness-related abilities, and the Nezumi... Well, the Nezumi are among the best races I've seen. 40 feet land speed, natural weapons, scent, bonuses to useful skills, and with the other tribes in Rokugan CS they can work for anything. Oh, and depending on your DM, anything with a tail they can put a spike/blade on may qualify for multiweapon fighting instead of TWF.