Race for ultimate magus [Archive] - Wizards Community

Race for ultimate magus [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
keithas
07-17-07, 09:56 AM I'm looking for a race with a boost to Cha and Int. If possible i'd like to keep the level adjust to +3 as its max. Does anyone know of any?
Thank you, for your time. :sc:
Avatar of Kokusho
07-17-07, 10:00 AM I believe drow get both of these.
RobbyPants
07-17-07, 10:01 AM Drow is LA +2 and gets +2 Dex, -2 Con, +2 Int and +2 Cha. That might be what you're looking for.

I don't know the specs on it (or even where it's from) but Illuman (sp?) is supposed to be great for this PrC, in that (at 20th level) you can get eight sorcerer levels at the cost of only one wizard level. Not a bad trade-off. The trick with this class is to have one "primary" class, and one "secondary", as opposed to advancing them equally.

If you don't already know the "caster-level trick", I can post it for you (if you're interested ;)).
Platstud
07-17-07, 10:03 AM Pixies have +6 Int, +6 Cha, but the LA is +4. The Nixie has +2 Int, +8 Cha at LA +3, but its special abilities aren't as good as the Pixie.
keithas
07-17-07, 10:22 AM Sorry, I forgot the DM doesn't allow Drow, What is the "Caster - Level trick"?
Eerongal
07-17-07, 10:28 AM the 'caster level trick' is where you take the feat practiced spell caster for your sorc/other spont. caster class, and have your prepared caster level higher. Notice in ultimate magus, the one that loses out on levels is the one with a LOWER CASTER LEVEL. Practiced spellcaster raises your CL.

For example:
sorc 1 / wiz 4 (caster levels: 1 / 4)

with practiced spellcaster for sorc:

sorc 1 / wiz 4 (CL: 5/4)

that way in the Ultimate magus prestiege class, the one that misses out on the bump for being higher level will be sorc, even though your actually lower in it.

Note that practiced spell caster only increases caster level, you dont get more spells per day/known with the feat.

When all is said and done, you end up with something like level 17 in wizard and level 10 or 11 in sorcerer, which gives you access to 9th level spells as a wizard.
RobbyPants
07-17-07, 10:46 AM Sorry, I forgot the DM doesn't allow Drow, What is the "Caster - Level trick"?
Eerongal posted what I would have. Although, if I'm doing it correctly, with a human, I could get to Wis 18, Sorc 9 by level 20. Still, 17/10 gives you 5th level Sorcerer spells. It's a trade-off, and might be better, as you get 9th level Wizard spells either way. Like I'd said ealier, the trick with this class, is to advance Wizard as your primary class, and boost it with additional Sorcerer levels. Ending with Wiz 17/Sorc 10 is much better than something like Wiz 13/Sorc 12 (or something similar).

With the Illuman race (which I don't remember), I think it allows you to further increase your Sorcerer caster level, so the only Wizard level you lose in all of your 20 levels is the one level of Sorcerer you take.

As for race, especially with a class like this, I would strongly discourage trading in valuable caster levels for relatively minor boosts to Int and Cha. You'll bet much further with higher level spells than you will with bonus low level spells and save DC boosts.
Kamin_Majere
07-17-07, 10:50 AM Why not just play a lesser Tiefling with a LA +0 and use Wizard/Beguiler as your class combination.

Both cast off of INT so you only really have 1 stat to boost.

Plus with the first level of Beguiler you get a huge Skill point boost and an actual class ability.
Eerongal
07-17-07, 10:51 AM well, i was going off memory, it could very well be wiz 18 / sorc 9 :P
Platstud
07-17-07, 10:57 AM As for race, especially with a class like this, I would strongly discourage trading in valuable caster levels for relatively minor boosts to Int and Cha. You'll bet much further with higher level spells than you will with bonus low level spells and save DC boosts.

I agree fully here. Maybe try something like a Gray Elf, you get the +2 Int and no LA.
keithas
07-17-07, 10:57 AM hmmm, very spiffy trick! What book is the lesser tiefling found in? I've been through both MM 3.5 and the planar handbook and have only seen the Lvl adjust 1 version. :sc:
Platstud
07-17-07, 11:00 AM hmmm, very spiffy trick! What book is the lesser tiefling found in? I've been through both MM 3.5 and the planar handbook and have only seen the Lvl adjust 1 version. :sc:

I believe it's in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting.
RobbyPants
07-17-07, 11:02 AM Why not just play a lesser Tiefling with a LA +0 and use Wizard/Beguiler as your class combination.

Both cast off of INT so you only really have 1 stat to boost.

Plus with the first level of Beguiler you get a huge Skill point boost and an actual class ability.
My only concern here is that a Tiefling's favored class is rogue. To fully optimize this PrC, you'll be doing some uneven multiclassing. So if the DM enforces the multiclass XP penalties, this will be a big problem. You'd want a race that has an arcane caster as the favored class. Of course, there's a good chance the DM's house-ruled the multiclassing penalty out...

well, i was going off memory, it could very well be wiz 18 / sorc 9 :P
I think it can be either. It would be 18/9 if you fully pump wizard. However, you can swap one level out each way to make it 17/10, which isn't something I've considered before. In the first comination, your maximum spell level is 9th/4th. In yours, it's 9th/5th. This could be a decent trade-off. Either way, you can get your caster level of the Wizard up to 20th with Practiced Spellcaster (after exploiting Ultimate Magus, of course ;)). All you lose out on is some spells per day, and you gain 5th level sorcerer spells. Not a bad idea. :)
Kamin_Majere
07-17-07, 11:15 AM My only concern here is that a Tiefling's favored class is rogue. To fully optimize this PrC, you'll be doing some uneven multiclassing. So if the DM enforces the multiclass XP penalties, this will be a big problem. You'd want a race that has an arcane caster as the favored class. Of course, there's a good chance the DM's house-ruled the multiclassing penalty out...

True, but the "favored class" is a kind of weak system. I mean most of the base classes never get a single race with it as a favored class. I've never seen a race with a favored class Sword Sage, or one with favored class Warmage.

With all the extra base classes i tend (as DM so thus a house rule) to adapt the "favored class" into a concept. Tiefling is Rogue, so its a sneaky skill monkey class. If the players can give me a pretty good explination then i generally allow it.

Its a problem with a system that uses nothing but Core for alot of its abilities, and never thinks about what happens when you expand the Core setting.
RobbyPants
07-17-07, 11:22 AM True, but the "favored class" is a kind of weak system. I mean most of the base classes never get a single race with it as a favored class. I've never seen a race with a favored class Sword Sage, or one with favored class Warmage.
That is a problem when you introduce new classes after the races have been created. This is why I said that the DM might have ruled it out. Lots of times, when looking at poster's house-rules, they get rid of the multiclassing restrictions.

I just figured I'd warn the OP in case the DM enforced it.
keithas
07-17-07, 11:44 AM I do try to keep an eye out for the favored class problem but our DM hasn't yet said anything, and I usually just try not to bring up that headache. While looking through the races of faerun I came across the fey-ri. Do you think if I gave up the Demonic abilities It could be reduced to LA +1 or is the rest of the race still to high. I'm asking cause man, I'm really liking what I'm seeing with this race. If you want the page # it's 119 :sc:
Kamin_Majere
07-17-07, 01:09 PM I do try to keep an eye out for the favored class problem but our DM hasn't yet said anything, and I usually just try not to bring up that headache. While looking through the races of faerun I came across the fey-ri. Do you think if I gave up the Demonic abilities It could be reduced to LA +1 or is the rest of the race still to high. I'm asking cause man, I'm really liking what I'm seeing with this race. If you want the page # it's 119 :sc:

Thats entirely up to your DM.

But honestly as a spell caster you want to go with as little LA as possible (with the operative number being LA+0) Your already hurting your progression going into Ultimate Magus, so you really dont want to hurt it anymore.

A slight increase to the DC's of your spells and a few more spells castable per day generally arent worth giving up your higher level spells. Its diffantly not worth a huge delay in aquiring the spell levels as you level up. A dual caster is already slightly behind the power curve (for the increase in versitility) and stacking a Level adjustment on top of that will put you a good bit behind the curve.
lord_xarallon
07-17-07, 04:27 PM Kobold.

Favored class sorcerer, so that problem with multiclass penalties to xp is nonexistant.
And you can use Greater Draconic Rite of Passage so you will only lose one wizard level.
And kobolds is have level adjustment of +0.

And if you wanna use the cheese then you take the dragonwrought feat and be venerable: +3 int, +3 wis, +3 cha, and take some epic feats.

Your DM might not allow the use of the dragonwrought feat like this, but kobolds is still a good race for reason listed above.
StalkerEntreri
07-17-07, 04:32 PM I believe Illiumian would be the best race; cause I'm not <i>positive</i> but I believe that you can use any ability score for your spellcasting; so you would only need one instead of both
lord_xarallon
07-17-07, 08:37 PM No, see Crystal Keep for what they can do.
StevenO
07-18-07, 12:11 AM Half Dragons only have a +3 LA with minor INT and CHA boosts along with a number of other things although going into Ultimate Magus I'd avoid all LA if possible.
Razieliffied
07-18-07, 03:24 AM Dragonwrought kobold perhaps? Advance to Wyrm age category and you end up with a free +3 int, wis and cha. There is no LA or HD involved, though many people don't like the little kobolds as much as I do.
The_Shaman
07-18-07, 03:49 AM If you are willing to accept LA and hence, rather poor HP, I would suggest the Half-fey from Fiend Folio. You get some good ability modifiers, a few spell-likes and a smorgasboard of abilities, not the least of which is flight. For LA+2, it's a bargain, although due to CL issues I would prefer it for something more versatile, like bard or beguiler.
lord_xarallon
07-18-07, 07:12 AM Shouts "Kobold!"
lord_xarallon
07-18-07, 07:13 AM *Changes voice*
"I agree with the previous poster. Take Kobold!"
The_Shaman
07-18-07, 07:16 AM Seriously, we need more gnomes around here. The kobolds are getting way out of hand.
Bob Loblaw
07-18-07, 05:26 PM I must be missing something, why dragonwrought kobold?
penchant
07-18-07, 06:48 PM Petals are a +2LA race with +4 INT and +8 CHA. With tiny size and fly you should do very well.

Specialist Wizard / Beguiler is a good option if you do just go with a Int bonus race. Add focused specialist to get up to 12 spells per spell level per day.
SunTzuWarmaster
07-18-07, 07:29 PM Multi-classing penalties you say?

I'll suggest a Air Gnome Beguiler2/Wizard3/UM10/Shadowcraft5

It is worthy to note that with Practiced Spellcaster you will get:
9th level spells (at level 20)
awesome starting skills/survivability
+TWO to illusion spell DCs when cast at a Dex-denied opponent (which syncs up to where it should be after Shadowcraft Mage)
quasi-real illusions
permanent miss chance
ONE key skill (int)
don't need to breathe (can be useful, especially if you fill a room with illusionary/shadowstuff water or toxic fumes)
other goodies

It is an inferior build, yes, but the Shadowcraft mage (gnome only) has lots of flexibility (especially with Heighten Spell pushing your spells up to level 14 or higher with Augmented Casting w/o considering Easy Metamagic, Signature Spell, Arcane Thesis, Metamagic School Focus, Residual Metamagic, ect.), dual casting progression, a GREAT spell list, a GOOD skill list (Beguiler for 2 levels is awesome and UM gets UMD), hit points that don't suck and spell save DCs that are through the roof (out of the box but ready for customization).

Specialize in illusions (for synergy), ban enchantment (for overlap) and something else. Solid build 1-20.
Razieliffied
07-18-07, 08:13 PM I must be missing something, why dragonwrought kobold?

Dragonwrought is a feat for the kobold that changes it to dragon type and giving it several nice little bonuses. They also age as a dragon does, through age categories instead of 'middle age' 'old age' etc. A metallic dragonwrought takes none of the physical aging penalties but gains all the mental stat buffs for age so there are a lot of gold kobolds walking around out there at level 1 with mental stats in the 20's. There are also little added perks from the dragon creature type and access to certain epic feats.
Bob Loblaw
07-18-07, 08:38 PM Dragonwrought is a feat for the kobold that changes it to dragon type and giving it several nice little bonuses. They also age as a dragon does, through age categories instead of 'middle age' 'old age' etc. A metallic dragonwrought takes none of the physical aging penalties but gains all the mental stat buffs for age so there are a lot of gold kobolds walking around out there at level 1 with mental stats in the 20's. There are also little added perks from the dragon creature type and access to certain epic feats.

I have Races of the Dragon but I cannot find this information. I found the feat but nothing in the description says anything about the aging process being changed. Where can I find this information? A specific page number would be really helpful because I must have missed it if everyone else says it's there.
lord_xarallon
07-18-07, 10:47 PM It is in the Draconomicon.
Can remember the exact page number but I think it is 28 or 29.
Bob Loblaw
07-18-07, 11:29 PM I read through the Draconomicon and Races of the Dragon. I found the feat that says you gain the dragon type in RoD. I found the listing of dragons by age from hatchling on up. However the listing is only for dragons, not for creatures with the dragon type. What am I missing?
The_Shaman
07-19-07, 03:07 AM Dragonwrought? I'm pretty sure it is in RoD. The first part of the Draconomicon deals exclusively with dragons.
Razieliffied
07-19-07, 03:20 AM I read through the Draconomicon and Races of the Dragon. I found the feat that says you gain the dragon type in RoD. I found the listing of dragons by age from hatchling on up. However the listing is only for dragons, not for creatures with the dragon type. What am I missing?

You could assume that dragon type and dragon are the same thing to keep things simple, though Dragonwrought in RotD states very clearly that you lose the dragonblood subtype, and the humanoid type is replaced by 'dragon'. So your a dragon in type.

Page 39 of RotD gives the age categories for kobolds, they all advance as dragons do. However, it states that dragonwrought kobolds of any ancestry do not have aging penalties apply, though they still gain bonuses.

It is also stated on page 66 of the Draconomicon that any dragon of 'Old' age category or higher may take epic feats without having any need of class levels [21st level like other characters].

Also keep in mind that the Dragon type itself gives a few small perks of it's own such as immunity to some forms of spells. You also have access to a lot of 'Dragon' prestige classes.
lord_xarallon
07-19-07, 03:27 AM It is aht lso stated on page 66 of the Draconomicon that any dragon of 'Old' age category or higher may take epic feats without having any need of class levels [21st level like other characters].

That was what I was referring to.
Bob Loblaw
07-19-07, 08:28 AM You could assume that dragon type and dragon are the same thing to keep things simple, though Dragonwrought in RotD states very clearly that you lose the dragonblood subtype, and the humanoid type is replaced by 'dragon'. So your a dragon in type.

Page 39 of RotD gives the age categories for kobolds, they all advance as dragons do. However, it states that dragonwrought kobolds of any ancestry do not have aging penalties apply, though they still gain bonuses.

It is also stated on page 66 of the Draconomicon that any dragon of 'Old' age category or higher may take epic feats without having any need of class levels [21st level like other characters].

Also keep in mind that the Dragon type itself gives a few small perks of it's own such as immunity to some forms of spells. You also have access to a lot of 'Dragon' prestige classes.

Thanks. That's what I was looking for. I think the part about epic feats is referring to true dragons not creatures with the dragon type. I didn't realize that kobolds have draconic age categories which helps explain quite a bit.
Razieliffied
07-19-07, 10:15 PM Thanks. That's what I was looking for. I think the part about epic feats is referring to true dragons not creatures with the dragon type. I didn't realize that kobolds have draconic age categories which helps explain quite a bit.

It was no problem at all, I like it when people can give me a hand with things on the board so I try to spread the love around to everyone.

It's generally assumed that the epic feats are referring to true blooded 40ft tall dragons, but due to the wording of the dragonwrought kobold then it's completely legal. Your a kobold that is a dragon [as much a dragon as a red or a gold dragon, just smaller]. Your of 'old' age category or higher, just like they are, you have access to the same feats. Broken if abused, but it doesn't break any rules. I'm suprised there hasn't been errata for this yet.
Bob Loblaw
07-20-07, 12:22 AM It was no problem at all, I like it when people can give me a hand with things on the board so I try to spread the love around to everyone.

It's generally assumed that the epic feats are referring to true blooded 40ft tall dragons, but due to the wording of the dragonwrought kobold then it's completely legal. Your a kobold that is a dragon [as much a dragon as a red or a gold dragon, just smaller]. Your of 'old' age category or higher, just like they are, you have access to the same feats. Broken if abused, but it doesn't break any rules. I'm suprised there hasn't been errata for this yet.
I'm not convinced that errata is needed, however if it can be abused in such a way then something should be done. I know that in my games we use the spirit of the rules before we houserule anything.
Razieliffied
07-20-07, 07:00 AM I'm not convinced that errata is needed, however if it can be abused in such a way then something should be done. I know that in my games we use the spirit of the rules before we houserule anything.

My own group tends to value flavor and RP over who does the most damage, though occasionally we come across something that we think can be heavily abused and wonder why there has been no official word on it as of yet.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
keithas 07-17-07, 09:56 AM	I'm looking for a race with a boost to Cha and Int. If possible i'd like to keep the level adjust to +3 as its max. Does anyone know of any? Thank you, for your time. :sc:
Avatar of Kokusho 07-17-07, 10:00 AM	I believe drow get both of these.
RobbyPants 07-17-07, 10:01 AM	Drow is LA +2 and gets +2 Dex, -2 Con, +2 Int and +2 Cha. That might be what you're looking for. I don't know the specs on it (or even where it's from) but Illuman (sp?) is supposed to be great for this PrC, in that (at 20th level) you can get eight sorcerer levels at the cost of only one wizard level. Not a bad trade-off. The trick with this class is to have one "primary" class, and one "secondary", as opposed to advancing them equally. If you don't already know the "caster-level trick", I can post it for you (if you're interested ;)).
Platstud 07-17-07, 10:03 AM	Pixies have +6 Int, +6 Cha, but the LA is +4. The Nixie has +2 Int, +8 Cha at LA +3, but its special abilities aren't as good as the Pixie.
keithas 07-17-07, 10:22 AM	Sorry, I forgot the DM doesn't allow Drow, What is the "Caster - Level trick"?
Eerongal 07-17-07, 10:28 AM	the 'caster level trick' is where you take the feat practiced spell caster for your sorc/other spont. caster class, and have your prepared caster level higher. Notice in ultimate magus, the one that loses out on levels is the one with a LOWER CASTER LEVEL. Practiced spellcaster raises your CL. For example: sorc 1 / wiz 4 (caster levels: 1 / 4) with practiced spellcaster for sorc: sorc 1 / wiz 4 (CL: 5/4) that way in the Ultimate magus prestiege class, the one that misses out on the bump for being higher level will be sorc, even though your actually lower in it. Note that practiced spell caster only increases caster level, you dont get more spells per day/known with the feat. When all is said and done, you end up with something like level 17 in wizard and level 10 or 11 in sorcerer, which gives you access to 9th level spells as a wizard.
RobbyPants 07-17-07, 10:46 AM	Sorry, I forgot the DM doesn't allow Drow, What is the "Caster - Level trick"? Eerongal posted what I would have. Although, if I'm doing it correctly, with a human, I could get to Wis 18, Sorc 9 by level 20. Still, 17/10 gives you 5th level Sorcerer spells. It's a trade-off, and might be better, as you get 9th level Wizard spells either way. Like I'd said ealier, the trick with this class, is to advance Wizard as your primary class, and boost it with additional Sorcerer levels. Ending with Wiz 17/Sorc 10 is much better than something like Wiz 13/Sorc 12 (or something similar). With the Illuman race (which I don't remember), I think it allows you to further increase your Sorcerer caster level, so the only Wizard level you lose in all of your 20 levels is the one level of Sorcerer you take. As for race, especially with a class like this, I would strongly discourage trading in valuable caster levels for relatively minor boosts to Int and Cha. You'll bet much further with higher level spells than you will with bonus low level spells and save DC boosts.
Kamin_Majere 07-17-07, 10:50 AM	Why not just play a lesser Tiefling with a LA +0 and use Wizard/Beguiler as your class combination. Both cast off of INT so you only really have 1 stat to boost. Plus with the first level of Beguiler you get a huge Skill point boost and an actual class ability.
Eerongal 07-17-07, 10:51 AM	well, i was going off memory, it could very well be wiz 18 / sorc 9 :P
Platstud 07-17-07, 10:57 AM	As for race, especially with a class like this, I would strongly discourage trading in valuable caster levels for relatively minor boosts to Int and Cha. You'll bet much further with higher level spells than you will with bonus low level spells and save DC boosts. I agree fully here. Maybe try something like a Gray Elf, you get the +2 Int and no LA.
keithas 07-17-07, 10:57 AM	hmmm, very spiffy trick! What book is the lesser tiefling found in? I've been through both MM 3.5 and the planar handbook and have only seen the Lvl adjust 1 version. :sc:
Platstud 07-17-07, 11:00 AM	hmmm, very spiffy trick! What book is the lesser tiefling found in? I've been through both MM 3.5 and the planar handbook and have only seen the Lvl adjust 1 version. :sc: I believe it's in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting.
RobbyPants 07-17-07, 11:02 AM	Why not just play a lesser Tiefling with a LA +0 and use Wizard/Beguiler as your class combination. Both cast off of INT so you only really have 1 stat to boost. Plus with the first level of Beguiler you get a huge Skill point boost and an actual class ability. My only concern here is that a Tiefling's favored class is rogue. To fully optimize this PrC, you'll be doing some uneven multiclassing. So if the DM enforces the multiclass XP penalties, this will be a big problem. You'd want a race that has an arcane caster as the favored class. Of course, there's a good chance the DM's house-ruled the multiclassing penalty out... well, i was going off memory, it could very well be wiz 18 / sorc 9 :P I think it can be either. It would be 18/9 if you fully pump wizard. However, you can swap one level out each way to make it 17/10, which isn't something I've considered before. In the first comination, your maximum spell level is 9th/4th. In yours, it's 9th/5th. This could be a decent trade-off. Either way, you can get your caster level of the Wizard up to 20th with Practiced Spellcaster (after exploiting Ultimate Magus, of course ;)). All you lose out on is some spells per day, and you gain 5th level sorcerer spells. Not a bad idea. :)
Kamin_Majere 07-17-07, 11:15 AM	My only concern here is that a Tiefling's favored class is rogue. To fully optimize this PrC, you'll be doing some uneven multiclassing. So if the DM enforces the multiclass XP penalties, this will be a big problem. You'd want a race that has an arcane caster as the favored class. Of course, there's a good chance the DM's house-ruled the multiclassing penalty out... True, but the "favored class" is a kind of weak system. I mean most of the base classes never get a single race with it as a favored class. I've never seen a race with a favored class Sword Sage, or one with favored class Warmage. With all the extra base classes i tend (as DM so thus a house rule) to adapt the "favored class" into a concept. Tiefling is Rogue, so its a sneaky skill monkey class. If the players can give me a pretty good explination then i generally allow it. Its a problem with a system that uses nothing but Core for alot of its abilities, and never thinks about what happens when you expand the Core setting.
RobbyPants 07-17-07, 11:22 AM	True, but the "favored class" is a kind of weak system. I mean most of the base classes never get a single race with it as a favored class. I've never seen a race with a favored class Sword Sage, or one with favored class Warmage. That is a problem when you introduce new classes after the races have been created. This is why I said that the DM might have ruled it out. Lots of times, when looking at poster's house-rules, they get rid of the multiclassing restrictions. I just figured I'd warn the OP in case the DM enforced it.
keithas 07-17-07, 11:44 AM	I do try to keep an eye out for the favored class problem but our DM hasn't yet said anything, and I usually just try not to bring up that headache. While looking through the races of faerun I came across the fey-ri. Do you think if I gave up the Demonic abilities It could be reduced to LA +1 or is the rest of the race still to high. I'm asking cause man, I'm really liking what I'm seeing with this race. If you want the page # it's 119 :sc:
Kamin_Majere 07-17-07, 01:09 PM	I do try to keep an eye out for the favored class problem but our DM hasn't yet said anything, and I usually just try not to bring up that headache. While looking through the races of faerun I came across the fey-ri. Do you think if I gave up the Demonic abilities It could be reduced to LA +1 or is the rest of the race still to high. I'm asking cause man, I'm really liking what I'm seeing with this race. If you want the page # it's 119 :sc: Thats entirely up to your DM. But honestly as a spell caster you want to go with as little LA as possible (with the operative number being LA+0) Your already hurting your progression going into Ultimate Magus, so you really dont want to hurt it anymore. A slight increase to the DC's of your spells and a few more spells castable per day generally arent worth giving up your higher level spells. Its diffantly not worth a huge delay in aquiring the spell levels as you level up. A dual caster is already slightly behind the power curve (for the increase in versitility) and stacking a Level adjustment on top of that will put you a good bit behind the curve.
lord_xarallon 07-17-07, 04:27 PM	Kobold. Favored class sorcerer, so that problem with multiclass penalties to xp is nonexistant. And you can use Greater Draconic Rite of Passage so you will only lose one wizard level. And kobolds is have level adjustment of +0. And if you wanna use the cheese then you take the dragonwrought feat and be venerable: +3 int, +3 wis, +3 cha, and take some epic feats. Your DM might not allow the use of the dragonwrought feat like this, but kobolds is still a good race for reason listed above.
StalkerEntreri 07-17-07, 04:32 PM	I believe Illiumian would be the best race; cause I'm not <i>positive</i> but I believe that you can use any ability score for your spellcasting; so you would only need one instead of both
lord_xarallon 07-17-07, 08:37 PM	No, see Crystal Keep for what they can do.
StevenO 07-18-07, 12:11 AM	Half Dragons only have a +3 LA with minor INT and CHA boosts along with a number of other things although going into Ultimate Magus I'd avoid all LA if possible.
Razieliffied 07-18-07, 03:24 AM	Dragonwrought kobold perhaps? Advance to Wyrm age category and you end up with a free +3 int, wis and cha. There is no LA or HD involved, though many people don't like the little kobolds as much as I do.
The_Shaman 07-18-07, 03:49 AM	If you are willing to accept LA and hence, rather poor HP, I would suggest the Half-fey from Fiend Folio. You get some good ability modifiers, a few spell-likes and a smorgasboard of abilities, not the least of which is flight. For LA+2, it's a bargain, although due to CL issues I would prefer it for something more versatile, like bard or beguiler.
lord_xarallon 07-18-07, 07:12 AM	Shouts "Kobold!"
lord_xarallon 07-18-07, 07:13 AM	Changes voice "I agree with the previous poster. Take Kobold!"
The_Shaman 07-18-07, 07:16 AM	Seriously, we need more gnomes around here. The kobolds are getting way out of hand.
Bob Loblaw 07-18-07, 05:26 PM	I must be missing something, why dragonwrought kobold?
penchant 07-18-07, 06:48 PM	Petals are a +2LA race with +4 INT and +8 CHA. With tiny size and fly you should do very well. Specialist Wizard / Beguiler is a good option if you do just go with a Int bonus race. Add focused specialist to get up to 12 spells per spell level per day.
SunTzuWarmaster 07-18-07, 07:29 PM	Multi-classing penalties you say? I'll suggest a Air Gnome Beguiler2/Wizard3/UM10/Shadowcraft5 It is worthy to note that with Practiced Spellcaster you will get: 9th level spells (at level 20) awesome starting skills/survivability +TWO to illusion spell DCs when cast at a Dex-denied opponent (which syncs up to where it should be after Shadowcraft Mage) quasi-real illusions permanent miss chance ONE key skill (int) don't need to breathe (can be useful, especially if you fill a room with illusionary/shadowstuff water or toxic fumes) other goodies It is an inferior build, yes, but the Shadowcraft mage (gnome only) has lots of flexibility (especially with Heighten Spell pushing your spells up to level 14 or higher with Augmented Casting w/o considering Easy Metamagic, Signature Spell, Arcane Thesis, Metamagic School Focus, Residual Metamagic, ect.), dual casting progression, a GREAT spell list, a GOOD skill list (Beguiler for 2 levels is awesome and UM gets UMD), hit points that don't suck and spell save DCs that are through the roof (out of the box but ready for customization). Specialize in illusions (for synergy), ban enchantment (for overlap) and something else. Solid build 1-20.
Razieliffied 07-18-07, 08:13 PM	I must be missing something, why dragonwrought kobold? Dragonwrought is a feat for the kobold that changes it to dragon type and giving it several nice little bonuses. They also age as a dragon does, through age categories instead of 'middle age' 'old age' etc. A metallic dragonwrought takes none of the physical aging penalties but gains all the mental stat buffs for age so there are a lot of gold kobolds walking around out there at level 1 with mental stats in the 20's. There are also little added perks from the dragon creature type and access to certain epic feats.
Bob Loblaw 07-18-07, 08:38 PM	Dragonwrought is a feat for the kobold that changes it to dragon type and giving it several nice little bonuses. They also age as a dragon does, through age categories instead of 'middle age' 'old age' etc. A metallic dragonwrought takes none of the physical aging penalties but gains all the mental stat buffs for age so there are a lot of gold kobolds walking around out there at level 1 with mental stats in the 20's. There are also little added perks from the dragon creature type and access to certain epic feats. I have Races of the Dragon but I cannot find this information. I found the feat but nothing in the description says anything about the aging process being changed. Where can I find this information? A specific page number would be really helpful because I must have missed it if everyone else says it's there.
lord_xarallon 07-18-07, 10:47 PM	It is in the Draconomicon. Can remember the exact page number but I think it is 28 or 29.
Bob Loblaw 07-18-07, 11:29 PM	I read through the Draconomicon and Races of the Dragon. I found the feat that says you gain the dragon type in RoD. I found the listing of dragons by age from hatchling on up. However the listing is only for dragons, not for creatures with the dragon type. What am I missing?
The_Shaman 07-19-07, 03:07 AM	Dragonwrought? I'm pretty sure it is in RoD. The first part of the Draconomicon deals exclusively with dragons.
Razieliffied 07-19-07, 03:20 AM	I read through the Draconomicon and Races of the Dragon. I found the feat that says you gain the dragon type in RoD. I found the listing of dragons by age from hatchling on up. However the listing is only for dragons, not for creatures with the dragon type. What am I missing? You could assume that dragon type and dragon are the same thing to keep things simple, though Dragonwrought in RotD states very clearly that you lose the dragonblood subtype, and the humanoid type is replaced by 'dragon'. So your a dragon in type. Page 39 of RotD gives the age categories for kobolds, they all advance as dragons do. However, it states that dragonwrought kobolds of any ancestry do not have aging penalties apply, though they still gain bonuses. It is also stated on page 66 of the Draconomicon that any dragon of 'Old' age category or higher may take epic feats without having any need of class levels [21st level like other characters]. Also keep in mind that the Dragon type itself gives a few small perks of it's own such as immunity to some forms of spells. You also have access to a lot of 'Dragon' prestige classes.
lord_xarallon 07-19-07, 03:27 AM	It is aht lso stated on page 66 of the Draconomicon that any dragon of 'Old' age category or higher may take epic feats without having any need of class levels [21st level like other characters]. That was what I was referring to.
Bob Loblaw 07-19-07, 08:28 AM	You could assume that dragon type and dragon are the same thing to keep things simple, though Dragonwrought in RotD states very clearly that you lose the dragonblood subtype, and the humanoid type is replaced by 'dragon'. So your a dragon in type. Page 39 of RotD gives the age categories for kobolds, they all advance as dragons do. However, it states that dragonwrought kobolds of any ancestry do not have aging penalties apply, though they still gain bonuses. It is also stated on page 66 of the Draconomicon that any dragon of 'Old' age category or higher may take epic feats without having any need of class levels [21st level like other characters]. Also keep in mind that the Dragon type itself gives a few small perks of it's own such as immunity to some forms of spells. You also have access to a lot of 'Dragon' prestige classes. Thanks. That's what I was looking for. I think the part about epic feats is referring to true dragons not creatures with the dragon type. I didn't realize that kobolds have draconic age categories which helps explain quite a bit.
Razieliffied 07-19-07, 10:15 PM	Thanks. That's what I was looking for. I think the part about epic feats is referring to true dragons not creatures with the dragon type. I didn't realize that kobolds have draconic age categories which helps explain quite a bit. It was no problem at all, I like it when people can give me a hand with things on the board so I try to spread the love around to everyone. It's generally assumed that the epic feats are referring to true blooded 40ft tall dragons, but due to the wording of the dragonwrought kobold then it's completely legal. Your a kobold that is a dragon [as much a dragon as a red or a gold dragon, just smaller]. Your of 'old' age category or higher, just like they are, you have access to the same feats. Broken if abused, but it doesn't break any rules. I'm suprised there hasn't been errata for this yet.
Bob Loblaw 07-20-07, 12:22 AM	It was no problem at all, I like it when people can give me a hand with things on the board so I try to spread the love around to everyone. It's generally assumed that the epic feats are referring to true blooded 40ft tall dragons, but due to the wording of the dragonwrought kobold then it's completely legal. Your a kobold that is a dragon [as much a dragon as a red or a gold dragon, just smaller]. Your of 'old' age category or higher, just like they are, you have access to the same feats. Broken if abused, but it doesn't break any rules. I'm suprised there hasn't been errata for this yet. I'm not convinced that errata is needed, however if it can be abused in such a way then something should be done. I know that in my games we use the spirit of the rules before we houserule anything.
Razieliffied 07-20-07, 07:00 AM	I'm not convinced that errata is needed, however if it can be abused in such a way then something should be done. I know that in my games we use the spirit of the rules before we houserule anything. My own group tends to value flavor and RP over who does the most damage, though occasionally we come across something that we think can be heavily abused and wonder why there has been no official word on it as of yet.