Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MidnightAge 08-21-07, 01:09 PM	I picked up Races of Eberron at GenCon and found the changelings to be much to my liking; I love their minor shape change ability. It does, however, raise some odd questions. It works as a physical manifestation of disguise self/alter self, which affects no only thier outward appearance but also their internal anatomy based on the fact that a changeling in female guise can become pregnant while one in male guise can impregnate. My question has to do with extrodinary abilities of the forms they possess; would a changeling who assumed the form of an aquatic elf be able to breathe underwater, considering that's a biological function and not a magical one? Would a changeling who assumed the form of an avariel be able to fly? These have probally been asked a thousand times before and I appologize for that, but when I ran a forum search on changelings I couldn't find what I was looking for. Thank you in advance!
Sarig the Genie 08-21-07, 01:12 PM	No, being able to change gender is pretty much the only major change like that they can do. It's also a big can of worms ;) I recall endless threads about it on the Eberron boards, but the simple answer is that not everything is going to sound completely logical in DnD.
041391klr 08-21-07, 01:17 PM	Well, not sure if it answers your question, but here is the quote from the SRD about Disguise Self, the spell that minor change shape is based on You make yourself—including clothing, armor, weapons, and equipment—look different. You can seem 1 foot shorter or taller, thin, fat, or in between. You cannot change your body type. Otherwise, the extent of the apparent change is up to you. You could add or obscure a minor feature or look like an entirely different person. The spell does not provide the abilities or mannerisms of the chosen form, nor does it alter the perceived tactile (touch) or audible (sound) properties of you or your equipment. So I can say no pretty confidently... Seeing as you cant even change your body type, I doubt you can even assume the form of an Avarial... as for aquatic elves, you might be able to look like one, but it would just appear as if you looked like one... no benefits of the race.. Dont quote me on that :D
nyysjan 08-21-07, 01:46 PM	changelings shape change is fairly limited, you can change how you look (while staying humanoid and within your size category), you can't, however, add appendages or special abilities, you only change your looks (minor exception in this is the ability to change gender, to a point where changeling can sire or give birth to children, depending on the gender he/she is at the time of sex)
Rerecros 08-21-07, 01:47 PM	No, you gain no qualities of the creature you look like. And no, RoE is way off, changelings can't change gender, RoE is chock full of factual, mechanical and even spelling errors. Changelings have a true form with gender, which becomes apparent when using true sight or reveal shapechanger. They can take the complete appearance of the opposite gender, but this causes no hormonal changes, and causes the usual -2 penalty to disguise yourself as the opposite gender.
nyysjan 08-21-07, 01:51 PM	sorry, but you are wrong, changelings can change gender (and yes, RoE was a steeming pile of crap, but this one fact it did get right), if you wish, you can consult WotC for rules clarification, or ask Keith, but the fact remains, they can change gender.
Rerecros 08-21-07, 01:59 PM	ECS p12 "Unlike true doppelgangers, changelings do have gender in their natural form, although they can take any shape they like." While they obviously can look completely like either gender (or both or neither) they can't rearrange the plumbing.
deathbane 08-21-07, 02:33 PM	ECS p12 "Unlike true doppelgangers, changelings do have gender in their natural form, although they can take any shape they like." While they obviously can look completely like either gender (or both or neither) they can't rearrange the plumbing. When 2 sources are in dispute you go with the primary source, and RoE is the primary source for races. I am looking for the source(may take a while).
Rerecros 08-21-07, 02:38 PM	The primary sorce of the two is undisputedly not RoE, which was created after ECS and is a peice of crap and is technecally not even part of the eberron series of books, but rather the races of series, which suck.
Sarig the Genie 08-21-07, 02:59 PM	The primary sorce of the two is undisputedly not RoE, which was created after ECS and is a peice of crap and is technecally not even part of the eberron series of books, but rather the races of series, which suck. The ECS say they have a natural gender yes, but it doesn't say they can't take another one. And 'undisputedly' would imply that there's no dispute about it, which is obviously not the case here. Your opinion of RoE can be whatever it wants, but it's still cannon, and disregarding it is houseruling. If you really want to be 'true' to the Eberron setting though, may I point out that Hellcow even said they could change gender and be fully functional in the Ask Keith Baker thread? Feel free to dislike it and houserule all you want. But that doesn't change cannon.
Rerecros 08-21-07, 03:04 PM	Of corse they can change gender, anyone can do that, it's part of the disguise skill. If you can provide a direct quote from an eberron writer that explicitly contradicts the material in the ECS then I will change my mind. RoE is not cannon, it is not part of the eberron series, it's part of the races of series, it's a failed attampt to adapt eberron material to other settings, and treating it as cannon is house ruling.
deathbane 08-21-07, 03:07 PM	The primary sorce of the two is undisputedly not RoE, which was created after ECS and is a peice of crap and is technecally not even part of the eberron series of books, but rather the races of series, which suck. I don' agree with everything in the book either, but those are the rules and the precedence thing is in the MM errata. (http://home.maine.rr.com/eldermist/downloads/MM_Errata061504.pdf)
Rerecros 08-21-07, 03:11 PM	I already seen that, and it works in my favor, ECS is the primary source.
deathbane 08-21-07, 03:12 PM	Of corse they can change gender, anyone can do that, it's part of the disguise skill. If you can provide a direct quote from an eberron writer that explicitly contradicts the material in the ECS then I will change my mind. RoE is not cannon, it is not part of the eberron series, it's part of the races of series, it's a failed attampt to adapt eberron material to other settings, and treating it as cannon is house ruling. Since when has a source book been put out that was noncanon?
MidnightAge 08-21-07, 03:17 PM	I just found this from Hellcow on the archive of the Eberron Sourcebook Inconsistancies thead (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-479997). ECS, page 12: "Unlike true dopplegangers, Changelings have true gender in their natural form, although they can adopt any shape they like." Races of Eberron refers to changelings as being innately genderless in several places, such as on page 45. "Central to how a changeling behaves is his self-concept. Doe he think of himself as a female half-elf, many different people of either gender, or as a thin, gray, genderless creature?" The reference to a genderless creature is a mistake. However, the idea that a changeling must choose a gender identity is not. Changelings HAVE gender in their natural form: at any given moment, a changeling must be either male or female. However, it is the intent of the designers that a changeling can change this gender using its ability (and that this change will remain in effect until the changeling chooses to alter it again) and this was carried into Races of Eberron. So the question of whether the changeling sees himself as male, female, or a being who transcends a single gender is valid. Also, thank you all for the feedback; it's helped a lot. ^^
Sarig the Genie 08-21-07, 03:20 PM	Of corse they can change gender, anyone can do that, it's part of the disguise skill. If you can provide a direct quote from an eberron writer that explicitly contradicts the material in the ECS then I will change my mind. RoE is not cannon, it is not part of the eberron series, it's part of the races of series, it's a failed attampt to adapt eberron material to other settings, and treating it as cannon is house ruling. Of course it's cannon. It says WotC on the cover, doesn't it? In general, the newest sources are also the ones considered to be most correct, and/or the stuff published in a book that deals directly with the subject (in this case, races), so on both cases RoE wins as the primary source regarding changeling abilities. And since this isn't the Eberron boards, and since the changelings appear in non-setting specific books too (which MM was it?), your argument about RoE not being part of the Eberron line up is completely irrelevant too.
Rerecros 08-21-07, 03:22 PM	Sweet! I'm right, thanx MidnightAge.
Sarig the Genie 08-21-07, 03:27 PM	Sweet! I'm right, thanx MidnightAge. Want to elaborate? Oh, but I'll take a guess, you're going on the part where Keith says the book is wrong on a minor detail, right? So you chose to accept Keith's word on that, but not accept the rest of his post?
deathbane 08-21-07, 03:33 PM	I already seen that, and it works in my favor, ECS is the primary source. http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-287579 From the ask keith baker thread 06-14-05, 12:40 PM is the thread so you have to waste your time A Hey! I just wanted to post my thoughts on a few things that haven't specifically been asked here, but have been mentioned on other threads. As always, these are my opinions, and I welcome you to ignore them. MALE MEDUSAS: Yes, we have male medusas in Eberron. The maedar from 2E do not officially exist in the world. Most medusas attribute their existence to the Shadow, though some tales claim that they were created by the daelkyr. But they are a monstrous humanoid race that engages in sexual reproduction and has two genders, and both genders possess the snakes and pretrification ability. And for those keeping track, Kasslak from City of Towers and Gasslak from the Sharn sourcebook are the same persons. CHANGELING GENDER:Races of Eberron presents the idea that changelings can alternate gender. Many people have trouble with this. One of the most common complaints is that sexual organs are extremely complex, and that if a changeling can create a uterus, why can't it create gills or poison glands? If you're not comfortable with it, I suggest that you ignore it. But just to throw out my views on it: The ability to change gender is not unknown in the natural world, even among creatures that cannot normally change shape. It's obviously a useful survival trait. Gender is a trait that exists within changeling DNA: all changelings are, at any given moment, one of two genders. When a male changeling becomes female, he is not in any way consciously "creating" female sexual organs. He has no conscious understanding of what's involved. The potential to be female already exists within his genes; if this had been ever so slightly different, he might have been born female. So the change of gender is like flicking a light switch and having a light come on: you don't need to know the science behind electricity to be able to get light out of a light bulb (provided someone else has already created the lamp and the socket). On the other hand, the "switch" for gills, poison glands, and so on isn't in the changeling's genetic library. The changeling egg has the potential to create a being that could be male or female, and that creature retains that potential even after birth. But a changeling baby would never be born with gills or poison fangs, and thus it can't produce those traits later in life. Like I said, if you want to ignore it, ignore it. But that's how I see it. Personally, I think that it adds a lot of room for interesting and very distinctive forms of changeling psychology, based on how the child is raised: does the child attach to the gender of its birth and maintain that sexual identity even when it alters its form for purpose of disguise? Or is it taught from an early age that gender is just another role, something to adapt to fit the current circumstances? That way of thinking would be very alien to a human, and to me, that's what makes it so interesting. As for a changeling losing the ability to switch gender while pregnant, I'd certainly be willing to allow a changeling to switch early in the pregnancy - but doing so would abort the pregnancy. I could see requiring a Will save to allow the changeling to make the shift, with the idea that it has to overcome instinctive drives to protect the child. So if a changeling became pregnant against her will, I wouldn't say "Oh, you've just lost your racial ability for months" - but she'd have to choose how to proceed, and how she felt about the moral issues involved. This isn't a discussion thread: these issues have been discussed elsewhere, and if you want to discuss or challenge any of my points, please do so elsewhere on the board. It is not my intention to criticize anyone else's concerns or disagreements with these issues. I just wanted to let you know my thoughts on these issues, to do with as you will.
Rerecros 08-21-07, 03:35 PM	"The reference to a genderless creature is a mistake. However, the idea that a changeling must choose a gender identity is not." Gender identity is not gender, a warforged can also have a gender identity, even though they got nothing going on downstairs. A male changeling that consistently takes female form would have a female gender identity.
BlinkMash 08-21-07, 03:39 PM	i agree
deathbane 08-21-07, 03:43 PM	http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=254109 ROE IS LISTED AS A SOURCEBOOK THEREFORE IT IS CANON AND THE LAST BOOK TAKES PRECEDENCE AS YOU ALREADY KNOW What products has Wizards of the Coast release to support the Eberron campaign setting? The first and most essential Eberron release was the Eberron Campaign Setting book. Other Eberron sourcebooks include: Sharn: City of Towers - a detailed look at the magic-rich city of Sharn Races of Eberron - a sourcebook dedicated to warforged, kalashtar, shifters, changelings, and the other races of Eberron
MidnightAge 08-21-07, 03:44 PM	Sweet! I'm right, thanx MidnightAge. Actually, you're right and wrong both. You're right in that in the Eberron setting, they have no genderless forms. You're wrong in saying that they can't change gender-plumbing or coppulate in either form. All in all I sort of like the genderless natural state mentioned in Races of Eberron, and I may or may not use it in non-Eberron worlds should I play a changeling. But all this information has been -tremendously- helpful, and I appreciate everyone for helping me figure these guys out. I never played Eberron but I have a friend who is a huge fan of it and the Warforged. I got RoE mostly for the Warforged stats, but the changelings really caught my eye. Also I just noticed deathbane's post which answered my original question. Thanks so much!
Rerecros 08-21-07, 04:01 PM	I managed to find this in deathbane's link, someone definitely should have quoted this before I found it. Q Originally posted by Yago Aginor How functional are the changes to sex(gender) introduced by a changeling's changing ability? A Absolute. A changeling's gender is its default that it will revert to if it, for example, dies. But a "male" changeling could actually assume a female form, become pregnant, and carry a child to term (it loses the ability to shift gender while pregnant). This will be covered in more detail in Races of Eberron. I was wrong. I'm not an unreasonable person, I simply require definitive proof.
CelticMutt 08-21-07, 04:01 PM	Nevermind.
concerro 08-21-07, 04:35 PM	I meant to state earlier that their ability only affects them and not their clothes, so it is more like alter self than disguise self, and this would also makes it less likely for them to escape just by changing their appearance. ROE"...affects their bodies but not their possessions" pg 41 I think I will houserule that the change extends to their clothes.
Yadot 08-21-07, 06:14 PM	I meant to state earlier that their ability only affects them and not their clothes, so it is more like alter self than disguise self, and this would also makes it less likely for them to escape just by changing their appearance. ROE"...affects their bodies but not their possessions" pg 41 I think I will houserule that the change extends to their clothes. Why? It's not like the Changeling's shape-changing ability is some sort of spell. It just affects their physical body.
deathbane 08-21-07, 07:24 PM	Why? It's not like the Changeling's shape-changing ability is some sort of spell. It just affects their physical body. I know but if you change your appearance, but have the same clothes I don't think your escape chances are good, assuming you get into that situation. If the PC's are at a higher level they could have armor with the glamor special ability, but if the changeling does not have armor then he cant change the outfit appearance. I guess I wont worry about it until someone actually decides to play one.
ragoftag 08-21-07, 10:02 PM	The 'day in the life' story has the Changeling switching items (p 42). Somewhere in the rest of it is something about dual appearance items, but 'she' at one point retains the bag (Instead, a curvaceous, young, female elf wearing loose breeches and a tunic emerges, carrying the same bag Azel had.). Items don't change. 'course, its YOUR world!
ArcTan 08-22-07, 12:23 AM	No, you gain no qualities of the creature you look like. And no, RoE is way off, changelings can't change gender, RoE is chock full of factual, mechanical and even spelling errors. Dude, if it's in a WotC sourcebook, it's not an "error". It may be something you don't like, but there's no way in which you can say it's objectively "wrong" (Eberron, after all, only exists in the mind of the reader of WotC's books). Changelings have a true form with gender, which becomes apparent when using true sight or reveal shapechanger. They can take the complete appearance of the opposite gender, but this causes no hormonal changes, and causes the usual -2 penalty to disguise yourself as the opposite gender. If that's how you want to run it, go right ahead. It's not the objective truth, though.
ArcTan 08-22-07, 12:28 AM	I already seen that, and it works in my favor, ECS is the primary source. That's arguable, since the ECS is about all of Eberron, not just races, while Races of Eberron is about the races detailed therein and only about those races. Just like the DMG is about all of D&D, while the MM is about monsters, so monster stats in the MM trump monster stats in the DMG (this is actually the example they give for that principle).
ArcTan 08-22-07, 12:30 AM	FWIW, I don't see this is a complex or difficult question at all. 1) Minor Shapechange does *not* grant Extraordinary Abilities, or, indeed, Special Abilities of any kind. On this, we all agree. 2) Female sex organs, the ability to get pregnant, and the ability to give birth are not Extraordinary Abilities. They are quite ordinary, and common. They are not listed in stat blocks as (Ex) abilities, anywhere. There is therefore no core rule of D&D that prevents you getting it through Minor Shapechange.
Rerecros 08-22-07, 12:32 AM	Dude, if it's in a WotC sourcebook, it's not an "error". It may be something you don't like, but there's no way in which you can say it's objectively "wrong" (Eberron, after all, only exists in the mind of the reader of WotC's books). Do you own the book, and ECS? If you did you'd know what kind of errors I'm talking about. Pointing out all the factual errors made (confusing one group or location with another) would give away most of the books contents. But most obviously there are the countless spelling errors, honestly you can look at a page without finding one.
deathbane 08-22-07, 02:38 AM	Rerecros already admitted he was mistaken. Why is this thread still going?
VanGrue 08-22-07, 06:43 PM	As for the fact that armor, in most cases, doesn't change to fit, first, I imagine that a Changeling would buy "one-size-fits-all" armor to accomodate changes in appearance. Second, three words: Hat Of Disguise. :D It may not change the shape or material of your armor, but no one else needs to know that! Basically, Changeling provides a fun roleplaying scenario without LA. I've run into several instances where it's helped tremendously. It's also particularly fun to assign different aliases to different forms. For instance, when I change to (an admittedly tall) dwarf, I tell strangers that I am Chug Morningflask. My teammates have to keep me from gloating about my character's (fake) drinking capabilities, since he has relatively low Con, Wis, and Cha scores and would probably be found out really fast if challenged to a drinking contest. :D So, what's the extent of the Shape-changing ability? I've stretched it a bit a few times, but I'm wondering just how far the "humanoid" descriptor will allow me to go without worrying about whether something's Monstrous Humanoid, and thus out of bounds.
deathbane 08-22-07, 08:03 PM	As for the fact that armor, in most cases, doesn't change to fit, first, I imagine that a Changeling would buy "one-size-fits-all" armor to accomodate changes in appearance. Second, three words: Hat Of Disguise. :D It may not change the shape or material of your armor, but no one else needs to know that! Basically, Changeling provides a fun roleplaying scenario without LA. I've run into several instances where it's helped tremendously. It's also particularly fun to assign different aliases to different forms. For instance, when I change to (an admittedly tall) dwarf, I tell strangers that I am Chug Morningflask. My teammates have to keep me from gloating about my character's (fake) drinking capabilities, since he has relatively low Con, Wis, and Cha scores and would probably be found out really fast if challenged to a drinking contest. :D So, what's the extent of the Shape-changing ability? I've stretched it a bit a few times, but I'm wondering just how far the "humanoid" descriptor will allow me to go without worrying about whether something's Monstrous Humanoid, and thus out of bounds. I think the limit is 100 pounds, and 1 foot. It is not it the RoE, but I think it is in the ECS.
VanGrue 08-22-07, 08:09 PM	Well, I didn't mean physical limits, so much. I meant more specifically races to emulate. What are some of the more far-out ideas for minor shape-changing?
deathbane 08-22-07, 08:59 PM	Well, I didn't mean physical limits, so much. I meant more specifically races to emulate. What are some of the more far-out ideas for minor shape-changing? Shapechange, such as a doppleganger's, give you the natural weapons, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of the new form, but minor shapechange just gives you the size and appearance. That is why even if the changeling takes an aquatic form that does not mean he/she/it will be able to swim.
ArcTan 08-23-07, 12:05 AM	So, what's the extent of the Shape-changing ability? I've stretched it a bit a few times, but I'm wondering just how far the "humanoid" descriptor will allow me to go without worrying about whether something's Monstrous Humanoid, and thus out of bounds. The limitation is on appearance, not on monster Type. Your actual Type *never* changes, but you can *look like* something of any type, or like something that doesn't exist at all. ("I want to be a purple glistening person with three eyes and antennae.") You can easily look like a Troll if you want. You'll just be a stunted Troll (because you can't be more than a foot taller than you really are) with none of a Troll's abilities, who still reacts to all spells (like charm person) as if he were a humanoid.
ArcTan 08-23-07, 12:06 AM	Well, I didn't mean physical limits, so much. I meant more specifically races to emulate. What are some of the more far-out ideas for minor shape-changing? You can Minor Shapechange into anything. The "far-out-ness" only really matters for Disguise checks, and you simply take the penalty for being something of a "different race", no matter how different that race is.
VanGrue 08-23-07, 02:39 AM	You can Minor Shapechange into anything. The "far-out-ness" only really matters for Disguise checks, and you simply take the penalty for being something of a "different race", no matter how different that race is. Thanks. I was wondering just how accurate it was when my friend said he thought I should change into a Yeti, playing into one of my group's inside jokes. I suppose the major issue would be growing all that body hair, but really, how is it so different than changing into a Dwarf? Ooh, zing! :D
deathbane 08-23-07, 02:56 AM	Thanks. I was wondering just how accurate it was when my friend said he thought I should change into a Yeti, playing into one of my group's inside jokes. I suppose the major issue would be growing all that body hair, but really, how is it so different than changing into a Dwarf? Ooh, zing! :D are you really going to try to change into a yeti?:eek:
Ogrebear 08-23-07, 08:22 AM	Question then- given that a Changeling can make physical changes to their bodies and count as shape shifters I take it that they can qualify for the Warshaper prestige class? Hum.... got an idea for a Changeling urban ranger/warshaper based on the morphing Terminator in T2......"have you seen this boy?"
deathbane 08-23-07, 02:22 PM	Question then- given that a Changeling can make physical changes to their bodies and count as shape shifters I take it that they can qualify for the Warshaper prestige class? Hum.... got an idea for a Changeling urban ranger/warshaper based on the morphing Terminator in T2......"have you seen this boy?" Yes you do qualify for the PrC, and I dont think the druid's changing is anywhere near what the morphing T2 does. She walks through things, and comes back together whole on the other side. If she is broken apart she comes back together. That is like a trolls regeneration. I think you might have to get a special character made, and then get your DM to approve it. Now you have made me want to see the movie again;)
ragoftag 08-24-07, 01:07 AM	Having a Changeling in game can be exhausting. Mine walks into town and changes 'her' looks as she can. Speaking nearly a dozen languages, armed with a variety of mastercrafted changes of clothes and social skill maxed, she can ferret out all manner of information I haven't had a chance to conceive of! Having just found a Heward's, I can only expect more headaches. But that's why I GM!