Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Threefists 06-15-07, 08:28 AM	Alright, this thread is a off-shoot of the 'Races of Savagery/the Horde' thread, and is solely for posting about the life-style, religion, social structure and so on of Hobgoblins. In no way, shape or form is it in any way linked to non-WotC Goblin-named Race, nor should it be considered so. Please post only if: A) You are intending to add relevant (3 or 3.5 information) about a HobGoblin's life-style or -cycle. B) Have spotted a flaw in a post, such as data that has been errata'ed or a mis-interpretation of CORE. C) A poster on the original Thread (Races of Savagery) who wants to link to a post or comment on another thread. This post will be editted as data is compiled and we build up a workable, RP and Rules alike, 'Races of X' format. Chapter Two: Goblinoids (again, lay-out thanks to Borris) A Day in the Life: Appearance: Hobgoblins are Goblinoids that stand about 6 1/2 feet tall with dark orange or red-orange skin, although the Hob's skin is obscured by a layer of short, fine fur the same colour as their hair, which ranges from dark reddish-brown to dark grey in colour. A Hob's face possesses similar qualities to that of a Goblin, being somewhat flat with large, pointed ears and a wide mouth, but Male Hobgoblins, typically the leader or 'alpha male', possess either a bright blue or red nose, and all Hob's teeth are naturally a yellow colour. Psychology: This fierce race wages a perpetual war against other humanoid races. They exist in a military society, proud of their status, their fighting prowess, their battle standards, and the quality of their weapons. War is their way of life, and to be a warrior is the highest calling a hobgoblin can have. Even when different tribes of hobgoblins meet, there will likely be verbal abuse (85%) or open warfare (15%) unless a strong leader is present. Hobgoblins have an extreme hatred of elves. When their opponents consist of mixed races, they always seek to destroy elves first. Goblinoid Life: Society and Culture: Goblinoids and Other Races: Religion: (all those are listed in the Living Greyhawk Deities pdf) _Maglubiyet _Bargrivyek _Grankhul _Hruggek _Khurgorbaeyag: Khurgorbaeyag is the goblin deity of slavery, oppression, and morale. He acts as a trusted lieutenant of Maglubiyet though he secretly harbors a desire to rule the goblin pantheon himself. Khurgorbaeyag lives in Maglubiyet's realm of Clangor on the plane of Acheron, so that Maglubiyet can better keep an eye on him. He makes his home in the largest goblin city, Shetring, where his greatest temple is located. Description: Khurgorbaeyag appears as a large (9 feet tall) muscular goblin with flame-red skin, speckled with orange and yellow scales. He wears scale mail and carries a whip. Aspects: At least one tribe of goblins on the Chultan peninsula in the Forgotten Realms campaign setting worship an aspect of Khurgorbaeyag that manifests as a powerful dinosaur. These goblins (known as Batrii) call him Kuro and believe that he owns the jungle. Khurgorbaeyag communicates with his priests through omens which may manifest as the cracking of a whip, glowing bars of light, or the abrupt onset of depression. Relationships: Nomog-Geaya, god of the hobgoblins, is Khurgorbaeyag's chief rival amongst the goblin gods and both try to outdo each other to win favor with Maglubiyet. Khurgorbaeyag once received aid from Hruggek, god of the bugbears, in a fight against the orcish gods and so considers him an ally. One of Khurgorbaeyag's chief proxies is a powerful goblin warrior named Lagdor Blooddrinker. Worshippers Clergy: Khurgorbaeyag's shamans and priests are strictly regimented. They strive to capture foes in combat rather than kill them in order to acquire more slaves for their tribe. Priests of Khurgorbaeyag wear red scale mail and war helmets. They carry whips, which is their god's holy symbol. The wolf is considered by Khurgorbaeyag's priests to be a holy animal and they often keep them as pets. _Nomog-Geaya: (Again from Wikipedia) Nomog-Geaya is the hobgoblin deity of war and authority. He is the patron deity of hobgoblins, but hobgoblins are also known to worship Maglubiyet. Histiory and Folklore: Language: Cities and Settlements: Most hobgoblins dwell in subterranean complexes. A few tribes build fortified surface villages (about 20%). Hobgoblins consider themselves superior to the "lesser races," lording over goblins and orcs whenever possible. The lesser races have only one good purpose to the hobgoblin mindset-they make decent battle fodder. In mixed groups, hobgoblins often serve as officers in units of goblins or orcs. Goblinoids as Characters:
Optimator 06-16-07, 03:08 AM	No PrCs, eh? Okay.
Kel 06-16-07, 10:32 AM	The PrC's aren't posted here: in the other Races books, which this is based off of, those were in chapter five. This is not where new material, such as feats and PrC's or substitution levels are posted: This is only stuff like the culture, art, names, language, clothing, societal structure, stuff like in the other books. After the first coupla chapters are done, then we move on to more stuff, which may include PrC's at that point. I don't know if I have the authority to request this, but please remove your class, save it to Word or Notepad, and repost it when we start making that chapter. Thank you.
Optimator 06-16-07, 07:12 PM	Oh, fine. :rolleye2: ;)
Omega_Grey 06-17-07, 08:23 PM	I have an idea for the Hobgoblin paragon class. In order to help them earn their level adjustment and to keep in line with their martial heritage maybe let them do something along the lines of have an ability treat all their paragon class levels as levels in fighter +1 for the purpose of what feats they can select, this lets the Hobgoblin Paragon 3 be able to be treated as a fighter 4 for determining if he can pick weapon specialization or not. Just an idea.
AllWillFall2Me 06-19-07, 02:04 PM	An interesting side effect of that, is if we allow it to stack w/ Fighter, and I see no reason why we shouldn't, it'd let them get all the feats a level "early", which due to their LA, means at the same time as everyone else. So as far as fighter feats are concerned, they have no LA. I like it.
Omega_Grey 06-19-07, 03:19 PM	Yup, that was my intent. That way they still had a slight drawback from the level adjustment (-1 HD, -1 base attack, slightly lower saves, and little less skills) but made up for it with training in specific combat styles (feats).
Kel 06-19-07, 11:51 PM	My bit on hobgoblin art: Hobgoblins are not, in general, considered an "artistic" race. However, despite what others think, hobgoblins do possess a certain level of skill in artistic pursuits. They are not particularly skilled at painting, have neither the patients nor time for it, as time spent painting could be better spent training or performing a useful task, and some berries and herbs used to create paint also have medicinal properties: to waste those could mean the death of another hobgoblin. However, they are skilled sculptures. In the process of sculpting, the excess stone is carted away to be reused on something else and the process of carving the stone can strengthen the stonecarver. The sculptures they make are often very heavy, and designed and placed so that they can be knocked down, creating a small wall, or crushing an intruder. These sculptures are often of renowned leaders or war heroes, reflecting the love of war possessed by hobgoblins. Hobgoblin blacksmiths, when possessed of sufficient time, often create weapons and armor of great beauty, using a special material know as Heartblood Iron (see Chapter 8: Equipment), that is easy to shape, and gives a beautiful red tone to the armor or weapon: such items are often treasured by those that receive them, and become family heirlooms. Hobgoblins also, oddly enough, dance. Their dances are not the polite, graceful things of the more civilized races: they are violent: not with physical violence and contact, but with the sheer harshness of the dancing, with great leaps and lunges, gyrations and swings, simulating the war and combat so central to hobgoblin society. Such events do not happen very often however, as they need at least a small time of peace to allow for such a thing... and the growth of infants that inevitably follows. Don't know how it is: I really just popped most of it off the top of my head.
Omega_Grey 06-20-07, 12:00 AM	Kel, I like it a lot. I assume this is just a statement to the art of hobgoblins and not the life overall right?
Wolf_Boy 06-20-07, 08:41 AM	I always pictured hobgoblin dance to be very rigid and structured, just like they are on the battlefield. Each hobgoblin knows their part and their are certain rules to follow. Same with hobgoblin courtship. Mating is an excercise of routine, with both the pursuer and persued doing a formal formal mating ritual wher one needs to prove themselves a superior mate. However that's just me. My hobgoblins place a very strong emphasis on lawful evil. Whereas your dance sounds more appropriate to bugbears. However I like the sculpture bit.
Seldriss 06-20-07, 08:57 AM	I am surprised to see no comment from AMGriffin in this thread, knowing how fond he is of orcs, half-orcs and hobgoblins...
shades of eternity 06-20-07, 11:03 AM	just some fun text I threw together One of the greatest ironies of the Hobgoblin race is inspite of their discipline, organization and martial skills, they are usually never one of the great powers of where they occupy. This is for several reasons. 1. Lack of Economic Base: Hobgoblins are warriors, not farmers. Even their tradesman and merchants are designed to feed the hobgoblin war machine. This causes their economy to be very specialized and unsuitable for large scale trade. This lack of income often forces them to have less money to work with. 2. Culling of their own members: While Hobgoblins, unlike orcs, usually love their children, they are also ruthless in their upbringing in order to ensure they are strong. They are inspected at birth for any physical or mental deficencies. If they are discovered to have any, they are killed. Then after 6 years, they are then brought into compounds where they are raised in the ways of war. As a result, child mortality rates are fairly high. 3. Use of war as an income: While the spoils of war are excellent for a particular group, they are not suitable for long term growth. Besides the obvious loss of personal and equipment in a lost war, hobgoblins find it difficult to adjust after they have conquered a particular area. While a strong chieftain can often impliment a fairly effective system of control, conquered territory is usually used to produce material and equipment for the next war. However most Hobgoblin are smart and organized enough to compensate for this with the use of slave labor. They often keep races that can produce goods so they don't have to. below are some of the most common races. Goblins: These smaller brothers are often used as grunt labor and as cannon fodder. However, they have had problems with the fast due to one particular factor: they breed quickly. During peacetime and/or less then harsh conditions, the goblin population may grow to the point where the hobgoblins are themselves heavily outnumbered. Humans: Humans are quite common in slave labor. They seem to be fairly balenced and often used for specialist skills. Furthermore their quality is better then many other wood be races. Wolves: While nowhere near as skilled as their smaller cousins. Hobgoblins respect and often revere wolves. They often have one in their household trained as a "war/hunting animal". Often as a right of passage a young hobgoblin must take down a wolf on his own. They are often encorporated in the hobgoblin war machine for tracking.
Kel 06-20-07, 06:42 PM	That looks good, but I don't think the child mortality rate after they get in the training camps would be that high... they don't have the birth rate of orcs or goblins, after all! I think the killing from birth thing would only be for very bad and crippling disabilities: people with a shriveled leg or only 2 fingers and a thumb on their right hand can still craft weapons, repair stuff, and do other important things relating to war.
Wolf_Boy 06-20-07, 07:04 PM	Naw they're lawful EVIL, as such it's quite plausable that they have a nazi like view of their own superiority. Each tribe believes itself better than the others. I don't see hobgoblins as accepting deformity of any sort to taint their bloodlines. Every member of the tribe represents the whole tribe. If you were excessively prideful and arrogant would you want to be represented by some deformed monstrosity?
Orchomenos 06-20-07, 08:23 PM	shades' text made me think about the Legionnaire ants (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_ant). There are many species of ants, but in each specy, there is many specialised subjects. Some are aphid hearders, some are mushroom or fungus farmers, some are larva caretaker, some are dedicated to the queen; some are hunters, some are explorers, some are soldier protecting the queen from intruders, and all these soldiers are sometimes called to wage war against another ant nest. Legionnaire ants have only one type of ant, beside sexued ants: soldiers. They survive by invading other ant's nest, killing any soldiers and killing the queen. Then, they force all surviving workers to work for them, and care for their own eggs and larvaes. Gradually, the worker die of natural causes, but the Legionnaire queen doesn't lay workers' eggs to replace them. So sooner of later, the Militaristic ants are let alone; it is the time to invade another ant nest, and reduce their worker to slavery. It's not that related to hobgoblins, but I hope it could give someone else some ideas!
ragoftag 06-20-07, 09:00 PM	Orchomenos-great idea! Perhaps a militaristic society similar to Mamelukes or Janissaries? I use that as one of my 'evil countries', with all people being enslaved to the 'state' (think N. Korea).
Kel 06-20-07, 11:00 PM	I didn't think they were like nazis... different lawful evil. More like making disabled people the general lowlifes of society, the lowest class, forced to work on the jobs no one else wants to do-- important jobs, but no one else wants to repair clothes, if given a choice. I figured they'd stick them where they wouldn't be seen, and, if seen, would be ignored. Sorta like the slaves (which would actually, receive better treatment, as they are more useful, and provide more materials and work. Which actually makes teh disable ho goblins lower than the slaves).
shades of eternity 06-21-07, 07:17 AM	actually, I wasn't refering to nazi's when I was mentioning these culling, but actually traditional ancient world practicses. unwanted children were often left on the side of the road to die in places like greece, rome and other nations. I also wanted to hammer home the idea that these aren't baatzu. Because they are mortal, they are actually more torwards neutral then simply cookie cutter archtypes. That's why the use of loving their children was thrown in inspite of their harsh practices.
Treymordin 06-21-07, 06:25 PM	Races of Ansalon by Margaret Weis has some pretty good information on the goblin races, goblins, hobgoblins and bugbears.
AllWillFall2Me 06-22-07, 03:28 PM	actually, I wasn't refering to nazi's when I was mentioning these culling, but actually traditional ancient world practicses. unwanted children were often left on the side of the road to die in places like greece, rome and other nations. The most well-known and documented case being the Spartans, who I have always seen as being the moral equivalent of Hobgoblins. Militaristic, Physically fit to a degree unknown by others, and bound by a communal sense of honor.
Omega_Grey 06-24-07, 07:28 AM	The most well-known and documented case being the Spartans, who I have always seen as being the moral equivalent of Hobgoblins. Militaristic, Physically fit to a degree unknown by others, and bound by a communal sense of honor. A point of view that I share as well, maybe with a little bit of feudal japan tossed in somewhere (aka the samurai caste). At least thats how I do hobgoblins in my campaign world.
shades of eternity 06-24-07, 09:26 PM	what weapons would be common in hobgoblin armies?
Kel 06-24-07, 09:50 PM	I don't think anything very exotic-- the type of stuff that can be made and taken care of easily easily. Stuff like maces, spears, swords, axes-- the usual for an army. Exotic weapons are more difficult and expensive to make, to train soldiers with, and to keep care of.
Omega_Grey 06-25-07, 02:08 AM	Then again I doubt it would be that uncommon for generals or other higher ups to have crazy weapons and fighting styles. Double Bladed Sword and Spiked Chain spring to mind as very acceptable options. Granted these arent 'common' but I doubt that in a group there wouldnt be at least one that didnt practice something like this.
Kel 06-25-07, 10:10 AM	I think basing the hobgoblin society off of Sparta would be pretty cool-- it fits the image of them pretty well. Should we make up a sort of "chain of command" for hobgoblin society? I sort of thought it would be like every individual was assigned a rank, from children up to the ruler (which I don't think should be called "king"-- I think that something more militant is required"). That rank can change, of course, according to individual actions. Speaking of that, I also think that hobgoblins have a sort of... (flexible is not the right word, but I can't think of it)... society. Rank and position in society is not based on what you were born into, but what you can earn through your own hard work. Hobgoblins are very practical, and preventing a brilliant soldier from leading an army just because he is not high enough rank would not fit their way of life, I think.
Omega_Grey 06-25-07, 10:27 AM	That makes perfect sense really, actually I think it would be almost forced on them to make good warriors be leaders/trainers for the rest of the hobgoblin army. In fact I can see them having a sort of society that forces you to do what you are good at. As for the name of the leader how about Warlord/Warchief/Supreme Commander/High General or something like that?
BaltotheJunkie 06-25-07, 01:13 PM	In addition, the idea (previously mentioned) that hobgolbins might have limited economic wherewithall to purchase slaves might dovetail nicely with the premise that they could conduct wars/raids that were purely for the purpose of taking slaves (somewhat like the Aztec's "Flowery Wars") with weapons that are designed for immobilizing and stunning opponents- think whips, clubbing with spears, lassos, nets, etc. I would also suggest that the idea of a perfectly militaristic race could extend to a reluctance to participate in any non-martial activity. They would not buy slaves, supplies, weapons, or anything, really. This might even extend to a reluctance to even carry coinage or money- they might have a certain low status hobgoblin (i.e. "quartermaster") designated as a purchasing agent, or even have slaves who are only there to carry money. I would imagine that hobgoblins might still carry jewelry (rings, armbands etc, much like the Viking "hacksilver"). And in a given group of hobgoblins, who is going to do all of the other work that is involved? A hobgoblin might care for their weapons/armor (polishing, minor repairs) because that is a warrior's duty, but who is going to draw the water/hew the wood (and dig latrines, care for riding/pack animals, etc.)? Any significant group of hobgoblins might of necessity include either slaves or female hobgoblins...
Kel 06-25-07, 05:31 PM	I don't know if that part is really a good idea. Hobgoblins aren't stupid-- in fact, when it comes to war, they are one of the best races out there. You cannot be that intelligent and good at war without realizing that an army moves on its stomach (making chefs very important), and that the warriors will always need new weapons, stuff to fix, and other stuff. The quartermaster will probably be more important to hobgoblins, because they do not stick themselves out for personal gain, and without the quartermaster, all the other officers and soldiers in the army would go to war naked with a stick, and hungry.
Threefists 06-26-07, 10:58 AM	I recall somewhere that Hobgoblin society is somewhat patriarchal (male-orientated) in matters religious and military, but think about this: as has been mentioned, a Army moves on it's stomach, literally. That's why Hobgoblins often have Goblin slaves, as well as slaves taken during raids on Humanoid settlements. While the males are out killing things, the females rule the roost with a iron fist, along with small numbers of males left behind to guard the 'base' from roving bands of monsters or rival tribes of Hobgoblins. Looking at it from a purely logical side, as I can imagine a Lawful society doing, Females are worth 'more' than males because one male can impregnate many females, but a female can only bear one, two or maybe even three children at a time with a long gestation period, even if that female is a Goblinoid. While it would make sense to allow small numbers of females into the army, not just as 'rewards' to the soldiers who perform admirably and follow orders promptly, but to also remind those soldiers that, waiting for them at him, is many more females, possibly at risk. It would encourage those soldiers to work hard, and to take the enemy down fast, so that they can return loaded down with the spoils of war and impress those females with their battle prowess. Also, Hobgoblins are arguably the smartest of the Goblinoid races. They would know that the 'virtous' races of Dwarf, Elf and Human would possibly be unwilling to harm 'helpless' females, and possible assassins culled from the most vicious and two-faced of the female Hobgoblins, trained with unarmed killing techniques and allowed to run into enemy hands, playing the roles of the 'damnsel in distress'. Even if those female detect as Evil to the Paladin, these femme fatales can simply claim that they had no choice but to commit evil acts to escape their cruel men-folk. Just some ideas I'm tossing around as I wait for my stomach to settle down...bleh....((never, ever, ever live on over-cheesed pizza's and cola for three days....my house's plumbing hasn't stopped complaining since!))
Kel 06-26-07, 11:31 AM	Thats a pretty good idea, except for the women assassin thing with paladins-- if you were forced to do an evil act or die, then that would make you neutral, not evil. (never mind that, or this will turn into an alignment thread... *shudders*). Actually though, I thought that hobgoblins would be pretty much unsexist-- they are pragmatic, and if a woman is a better general or fighter than the men, then that woman would go to war. I didn't really see them as over-protective of their females. After all, if the men die because there weren't enough soldiers, what will the now manless women do? Makes a lot more sense hobgoblin-wise for them to fight just as with the males. Don't know if that fits your idea of them very well or not, but thats my opinion
BaltotheJunkie 06-26-07, 04:51 PM	I don't know if that part is really a good idea. Hobgoblins aren't stupid-- in fact, when it comes to war, they are one of the best races out there. You cannot be that intelligent and good at war without realizing that an army moves on its stomach (making chefs very important), and that the warriors will always need new weapons, stuff to fix, and other stuff. The quartermaster will probably be more important to hobgoblins, because they do not stick themselves out for personal gain, and without the quartermaster, all the other officers and soldiers in the army would go to war naked with a stick, and hungry. Why not? I don't think it is far fetched at all. There are many examples of exactly that behavior in our world. I was thinking of the reluctance of many knights in medieval Europe, and the samurai, etc. to dirty their hands with commerce. This is not to say that no one paid attention to these details, but that it was not considered fit employment for a real warrior. And remember, that the hobgoblin will consider himself a warrior- not a mere soldier. A chef may very well be important- but no hobgoblin will do it. It will be work for either a female, or a slave. No warrior will dirty his hands to do it. We are not talking about the modern army here- we are talking about a race that probably does not even have a word in their language for "peace". Certain other professions may receive a modicum of respect- a weaponsmith, for example may be given some respect- but not some dude "in the rear with the gear". It may seem obvious that a quartermaster can have an easier job, and may very well have opportunities for larcenous enrichment- to us. No hobgoblin would want to work in such an ignoble profession- unless, say it were the province of a crippled former warrior. But even then, I would suggest that it is the sort of work that a slave would perform- and there might be many slaves who were more than willing to work as a quartermaster, rather than say, a sapper- or the guy digging latrines...
AMGriffin 06-26-07, 09:10 PM	Ah, the good old hobbo. I love these folks. I figure when it comes to hobgoblins and war, they're going to have a pretty well-organized totaltarian government with a hierarchy set up based on a hobgoblin's age, ancestry, and skill. Higher ranking hobgoblins will probably be tacticians and planners, maybe elite shock troops or special forces of sorts. Middle ranking hobgoblins will probably be moderately well-armed soldiers who make up the back bone of hobgoblin armies. They'll probably also be manning lots of siege weapons and the like. Lower ranking hobgoblins will be crude foot soldiers (cannon fodder) and do some grunt work or gathering/preparing food. Slaves or inferior peons (Hobgoblins have always seemed too efficient to just cull off the weak) will probably be doing a majority of the grunt work that is blatantly demeaning and pathetic. I'll be around later with more :D
BaltotheJunkie 07-01-07, 03:27 PM	There seems to be another thread related to hobgoblins. Always my favorite. I don't even use orcs in my homebrew world- all kobolds, goblins and the hobs.
AllWillFall2Me 07-02-07, 02:07 AM	Another Idea: I do support th Hobgoblins-Sparta connection, but to anyone who has read Wheel of Time, What of the Aiel? Perhaps the Hobbos have rules about who can be taken slaves, such as leaving women and children, as killing them doesn't prove anything. I also liekd the Aiel's rule about not taking Blacksmiths. And the women, while normally not part of the armies, are not prohibited, and any who wish to join may. OOOOOOOOOOHHH! Here's an idea: maybe the Hobbos don't just train themselves, but the surrounding area. What we see as raids they see as training exercises. Military might is the measurement by which hobgoblins measure status, so they are raising theirs and, in their own twisted way, offering their enemies status. I recall that some Native American tribes measured their strength by their enemies, perhaps the hobgoblins do the same, speaking of stalwart human defenders as pridefully as they do their generals. So rank is determined by who you have fought, as well as who you have beaten. So, losing at the walls of the Dwarven citadel still conveys you some respect, more than the honorless one who struck a pilgrim caravan. He won, but they were not worthy foes. Also, I like the idea of hobgoblin rank being fought for. In that, if you want a promotion, you fight your boss. However, for higher ranks, there has to be a system. Like, maybe every year, there's a hobgoblin variant of the Olympics, wherein the competitors must strategize, fight, and outdo their opponents and the champion may fight the Current King for his title. Second place becomes his Hand-of War, or second-in-command. Sometimes, hobgoblins will deliberately throw matches if they think their foe better suited for a rank. Just ideas.
shades of eternity 07-02-07, 12:54 PM	I would think that the roles of men and women in hobgoblin society would follow a pattern similar to the samurai cast of japan. both men and women are trained in warfare. The men commit raids and provide the "offence" in large scale conflicts. The women defend their village/fortress/living space, and operate any siege machines and/or direct construction work. The men usually do the grunt work for such projects though. By some extrapolations, females may be more likely to seek divine and/or arcane training. and the word your looking for is a meritocracy. Namely, the best get ahead.
Omega_Grey 07-02-07, 01:14 PM	I think we are all agreed on what hobgoblin society will be like so we should probably move on to other matters involving their life style. Not to be rude, but this project is getting nowhere pretty fast, and I just want us to stop spending so much time basically agreeing but with different words. So to recap what we have so far- Hobgoblins are incredibly militaristic. Hobgoblins are an equal gender society. Hobgoblins place individual merit above familial ties. And finally, and most important, hobgoblins live for war. I know the first and last on the list may be seen as redundant but I think there is enough of a difference to warrant the mention. So now we should probably move on to something else in the book, my thought is something a little more simple such as the Hobgoblins and other races section. Sorry if I sound pushy to anyone.
AllWillFall2Me 07-02-07, 10:05 PM	Last word: I like everything Shades_of_Eternity just said. That out of the way: Other Goblinoids: Hobgoblins appreciate the other goblinoids as tools in their pursuit of war. However, they don't exactly respect them. They see both Goblins and Bugbears as failings as perfect warriors. Goblins, though excellent in Stealth, have no strength, and Bugbears, while powerhouses in battle, lack the intelligence to plan well or seize opportunities. Also, neither group understands the honor system inherent to hobgoblin society. NOTE: I'd like it if each species had a dialect variant. Not a different language, but certain new words or alternate uses. Case in point, I think the "Hobgoblin" word for idiot or fool should be the Goblin word for Bugbear, and likewise Liar or Spy be a use of Goblin.
shades of eternity 07-03-07, 11:04 AM	maybe what would be awesome is a case study of different ways hobgoblin society can develop?
BaltotheJunkie 07-05-07, 01:24 PM	I would think that the roles of men and women in hobgoblin society would follow a pattern similar to the samurai cast of japan. both men and women are trained in warfare. The men commit raids and provide the "offence" in large scale conflicts. The women defend their village/fortress/living space, and operate any siege machines and/or direct construction work. The men usually do the grunt work for such projects though. By some extrapolations, females may be more likely to seek divine and/or arcane training. and the word your looking for is a meritocracy. Namely, the best get ahead. Good point about women and arcane training. I can see that being a valuable way to both have spell casters that you can depend upon, and also to have them without sacrificing potential warriors. I think females would be likely to become rogues as well. I can imagine that in the struggles between rival hobgoblins, assasination might often be used- and what better assassin than a "mere" female. As to relations between hobs and other races: I think of all humanoids, hobgoblins would be least likely to respect orcs. As has been mentioned, the raw strength of bugbears and the stealth of goblins might be appreciated as having a place in the great scheme of things, but orcs would be seen as being good only as cannon fodder. As individuals, orcs may be occasionally worthy of some respect, but as a species, they would be despised as undisciplined savages with no sense of honor. One hobgoblin might accuse another of being "as brave as an orc" (implying not very, or brave only in large groups) or when speaking of someone who is considered untrustworthy, "He swears his oaths in Orcish." Their generally slovenly lifestyle, especially the condition in which they maintain their weapons, is considered disgraceful, and the warleader that includes orcs among his allies probably regrets their poor discipline and order. Orcs are generally considered to be better at rape and looting than actual fighting, and as strategists? Hopeless. Use them only if you have no other options.
shades of eternity 07-06-07, 12:49 AM	was looking through my old dragon magazines, and found a descent article on hobgoblins in dragon 309. It introduced me to the hobgoblin concept of the "personal perimeter." What was interesting is that hobgoblin's personal perimeter increases the greater numbers they have and am I the only one seeing this picture of 300 hobgoblin's holding off a huge army of humans, elves dwarves and the like along a secret pass. :D
Omega_Grey 07-06-07, 11:13 AM	and am I the only one seeing this picture of 300 hobgoblin's holding off a huge army of humans, elves dwarves and the like along a secret pass. :D Elf commander to the Hobgoblin scout: "Fear for your lives beast, for while you may have me defeated the thousand nations of the Unified Alliance descend upon you! Or very arrows will blot out the sun!" Scout to the commander: Runs the commander through, tells his captain and group sets up a impromptu roof over where they'll be fighting and has all spell-casters set up gusts of wind spells while a messenger is sent to let the rest of the clans know that glorious battle will be held at this pass. Scout says "Nothing like a good breeze while fighting in the shade." Nah, I see it too, just I think they will fair a little better.
BaltotheJunkie 07-06-07, 04:10 PM	was looking through my old dragon magazines, and found a descent article on hobgoblins in dragon 309. It introduced me to the hobgoblin concept of the "personal perimeter." What was interesting is that hobgoblin's personal perimeter increases the greater numbers they have and am I the only one seeing this picture of 300 hobgoblin's holding off a huge army of humans, elves dwarves and the like along a secret pass. :D Sorry, I quit collecting Dragon after about 180 or so (I still have copies of the Strategic Review, somewhere). What is "personal perimeter"?
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi 07-06-07, 04:52 PM	we are talking about a race that probably does not even have a word in their language for "peace". Or if they do have something, it probably is more equivalent to "prolonged defeat."
shades of eternity 07-06-07, 10:14 PM	Sorry, I quit collecting Dragon after about 180 or so (I still have copies of the Strategic Review, somewhere). What is "personal perimeter"? Basically it's the space around a hobgoblin where they feel safe.
BaltotheJunkie 07-07-07, 01:14 PM	Or if they do have something, it probably is more equivalent to "prolonged defeat." Or "truce"...
BaltotheJunkie 07-07-07, 01:15 PM	Basically it's the space around a hobgoblin where they feel safe. So in larger groups they spread out more, because their need for space increases?
shades of eternity 07-07-07, 01:30 PM	basically with strength of numbers they can control a larger degree of area.
BaltotheJunkie 07-08-07, 10:14 AM	basically with strength of numbers they can control a larger degree of area. Okay, I guess that explains it. Cheers. As to the relations hobgoblins have with other races, the relations with kobolds are interesting. You have a situation where the physical abilities of kobolds are seen as beneath contempt. Let's face it: it is only rarely that the race of kobalds produces a warrior of any real standing- most of their troops are better at "indirect combat". In addition, they are too attracted to "grubbing in the dirt" to be taken very seriously as anything but... combat engineers. Many hobgoblin leaders might like to have a group of kobold sappers, and also building traps and seige engines- provided that they could trust the devious little buggers...
Lykor 07-08-07, 11:02 AM	I submit Warlord as the leader of a hobgobbo tribe, repacing chief or king (or variations thereof). We can reserve High Warlord for any Warlord who has conquered and rules one or more other hobgobbo tribes. Not sure what flavor of Warlord would be appropriate for a Warlord who conquers a worthy (elves, humans, dwarves, etc and not goblins or orcs) city of non-hobgobbos.
AllWillFall2Me 07-08-07, 04:42 PM	Basically it's the space around a hobgoblin where they feel safe. As I read it, it was also "their" area of responsibility. They are in charge of taking care of anything that enters their area. As to the names for the city-conquerer, what of Slavetaker?
BaltotheJunkie 07-10-07, 01:42 PM	As I read it, it was also "their" area of responsibility. They are in charge of taking care of anything that enters their area. As to the names for the city-conquerer, what of Slavetaker? That could be almost any hobgoblin, don't you think? They're all pretty much inveterate slavers. But in the same way that armies award medals, the chief hobgoblins might award distinctive names to individual hobgoblins, for instance: Duroga Axehand, the Despoiler of Two Rivers Fort, or Inligarth Dwarfslayer, Builder of Pyramids of Skulls... But to return to kobolds: A source of strife between kobolds and hobgoblins might be that hobgoblins can often view kobold lairs as "piggy banks". Kobolds, after all must accumulate a certain amount of mineral wealth, grubbing through the dirt as they do. Why not use that wealth to finance the aquisition of auxiliary mercenaries (i.e. orcs, gnolls, ogres, etc) or other necessities that can not be aquired by raiding (purchases of magical weapons, payment of bribes to informants and traitors, etc.? The fact that the little buggers are so well protected by traps might also serve as a good practical exercise in assaulting an invested enemy. The individual kobold soldiers may not be worthy of respect, but their deviousness as a race is something to learn to guard against.
shades of eternity 07-10-07, 03:31 PM	I like the kobold as piggy banks ideas and the use of names for progress. along the northwest coast of bc and washington, the native people their used to believe the power of names and some names had to be earned for prestige. what if some of the names used could have arcane and/or divine connotations? Once given acts as a feat (much like the ritual feats of arcana unearthed).
BaltotheJunkie 07-10-07, 04:18 PM	I like the kobold as piggy banks ideas and the use of names for progress. along the northwest coast of bc and washington, the native people their used to believe the power of names and some names had to be earned for prestige. what if some of the names used could have arcane and/or divine connotations? Once given acts as a feat (much like the ritual feats of arcana unearthed). I don't have that book (I have a family in Germany, and it is not always either easy or economical for me to have all the books) but I think we are on the same wavelength here. At the very least, the possession of a given name should allow some sort of bonus to Charisma based checks (Intimidate, etc.) And yes, I see the hobgoblins as being both rather profane, but also very devout (no athiests in the front rank of a charge against massed dwarven heavy infantry, after all...)
shades of eternity 07-11-07, 08:57 AM	well yeah, religion really does have practical application in the dnd world. (by means of divine spells and/or turning). makes sense it would be focused accordingly. to be honest, I'd rather have the hobgoblin gods be more...distinct. the goblin god seems kinda lame to be honest with ya especially for a race of warriors.
BaltotheJunkie 07-11-07, 12:27 PM	well yeah, religion really does have practical application in the dnd world. (by means of divine spells and/or turning). makes sense it would be focused accordingly. to be honest, I'd rather have the hobgoblin gods be more...distinct. the goblin god seems kinda lame to be honest with ya especially for a race of warriors. Yeah, I mean as if the hobgoblins would accept a hand me down diety from the goblins. These are hobgoblins we are talking about, not some filthy skulking goblins. They deserve a god who can kick the goblin god's butt all over the place...
shades of eternity 07-14-07, 03:16 AM	you know, I'm starting to wonder if devil worshiping is better then the goblin god for hobgoblins. honestly Bel represents the hobgoblin ideal. what about realms specific. Greyhawk: Hextor makes way more sense then any other god. FR: Bane and the Red Knight and seem like the best choices for religion. In fact the red knight gives a solid "non evil" alternative. opinions? edit: adding the hobgoblin deity info here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomog-Geaya to be honest, it kinda stinks their god is a lesser god.
BaltotheJunkie 07-15-07, 02:21 PM	you know, I'm starting to wonder if devil worshiping is better then the goblin god for hobgoblins. honestly Bel represents the hobgoblin ideal. what about realms specific. Greyhawk: Hextor makes way more sense then any other god. FR: Bane and the Red Knight and seem like the best choices for religion. In fact the red knight gives a solid "non evil" alternative. opinions? edit: adding the hobgoblin deity info here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomog-Geaya to be honest, it kinda stinks their god is a lesser god. Yeah, it sometimes seems to me that the orcs get the lion's share of attention, then kobolds, then the rest of the humanoid races fight over the remaining scraps. Hobgoblins get the shaft.
shades of eternity 07-17-07, 09:52 AM	so what else do we have to cover?
Skritz_the_Lizardmen 07-17-07, 03:38 PM	Thats how i see it: War is the center of a Hobgoblin existence. Its their meaning in life. Its not "evil" or "cruel" for them. Everyday life is centered around war. Period of peace only exist in order to prepare for war.The one whit the best martial prowess are the best, the rest are unwhorty creature. Maybe the kill handicaped child. Its like Sparta making sure every child is in perfect condition to fight. An early form of "supersoldier" creation. Warrior who become handicaped are simply considered useless. Maybe they are used as teacher and mentor. So they can still make themselves usefull by training more young Hobgoblin.
Omega_Grey 07-18-07, 06:36 PM	Thats how i see it: Warrior who become handicaped are simply considered useless. Maybe they are used as teacher and mentor. So they can still make themselves usefull by training more young Hobgoblin. To offer an alternative view on this, maybe a warrior that becomes handicap in battle or in the service of war is heaped great honor and prestige. He fought so tenaciously that only the most dreadful of wounds prevented him from continuing and other hobgoblins look to him as a source of inspiration. Of course the wounded hobgoblin feels no pride in his wound, it keeps him from the glorious war that he was born for. Just a suggestion.
BaltotheJunkie 07-18-07, 06:39 PM	so what else do we have to cover? Attitudes towards other non human races. I think Gnolls would be seen as little more than animals (surprise, surprise). After all, like Ogres, they have brute force (and perhaps more speed than ogres do) but not really the mind to be a warrior. A gnoll thinks with its stomach. Gnolls are also sadists. A hobgoblin would recognize the need for torture: it can be effective in obtaining information, and it can also psychologically affect your enemies, plus it can serve as a reminder to the conquered (and enslaved) the essential importance of following orders. But cruelty for the sheer sake of it would seem both cowardly, and also counterproductive. It may be thrilling to a gnoll to eat their enemies (hearing their shrieks, etc.) But surely that slave might have served to eventually produce more food through forced labor or other tribute. Gnolls are too short sighted. No discipline. Fantastic irregular troops- they do not need careful supply lines (or really much of any support at all, as they "live off the land") If what you need is sheer terror inflicted upon your enemies, in an effort to psychologically demoralize them, gnolls are great allies, but Maglubiyet forbid you were counting on the gnolls to bring back a prisoner for interrogation. The gnollish inability to submit to discipline is their greatest shortfall. You can't trust them to have anything more than a basic grasp of rudimentary tactics (mostly the fine art of the ambush) and strategy is completely beyond them. But as raiders and rangers, they are pretty damned useful. For animals.
AllWillFall2Me 07-18-07, 09:56 PM	To offer an alternative view on this, maybe a warrior that becomes handicap in battle or in the service of war is heaped great honor and prestige. He fought so tenaciously that only the most dreadful of wounds prevented him from continuing and other hobgoblins look to him as a source of inspiration. Of course the wounded hobgoblin feels no pride in his wound, it keeps him from the glorious war that he was born for. Just a suggestion. He can teach younger generations in how to be warriors. NOw, Just for kicks, I happened to see Men of Honor the other day, and realized that mantra Billy Sunday said could be adapted to a Hobgoblin War doctrine. "The Warrior is not a fighting man, he is a Battle expert. If it is hidden, he finds it. If it's fled, he hunts it down. If it's in the way, he kills it. If he's lucky, he will die young, 200 bodies beneath his feet, for that is the closest he'll ever get to being a God. "
BaltotheJunkie 07-21-07, 08:55 AM	He can teach younger generations in how to be warriors. NOw, Just for kicks, I happened to see Men of Honor the other day, and realized that mantra Billy Sunday said could be adapted to a Hobgoblin War doctrine. "The Warrior is not a fighting man, he is a Battle expert. If it is hidden, he finds it. If it's fled, he hunts it down. If it's in the way, he kills it. If he's lucky, he will die young, 200 bodies beneath his feet, for that is the closest he'll ever get to being a God. " I think that might be appropriate. I like the idea that a hobgoblin, if placed in our world, might find Sun Tzu very interesting, as well as Clausewitz, etc. It might even find the poetry of Kipling of interest, and would perhaps find bagpipe marching music to be good. A hobgoblin might very well approve of the Gurkhas, for instance, and of Alexander the Great. But he would most likely have nothing but contempt for Jesus or Gandhi- if it even understood what they were doing.
shades of eternity 07-21-07, 10:56 AM	actually once firearms are invented, they would be the gurkas.:schemes:
Omega_Grey 07-22-07, 03:27 AM	From the Second Edition Humanoids Handbook section on Hobgoblins. Background. Hobgoblins are stocky humanoids with hairy, dark red to dark gray hides. The typical hobgoblin is 6 1/2 feet tall, has yellow or dark brown eyes, and sharp yellow teeth. They favor brightly colored garments, especially outfits of blood red. This fierce race wages a perpetual war against other humanoid races. They exist in a military society, proud of their status, their fighting prowess, their battle standards, and the quality of their weapons. War is their way of life, and to be a warrior is the highest calling a hobgoblin can have. Even when different tribes of hobgoblins meet, there will likely be verbal abuse (85%) or open warfare (15%) unless a strong leader is present. Most hobgoblins dwell in subterranean complexes. A few tribes build fortified surface villages (about 20%). Hobgoblins consider themselves superior to the "lesser races," lording over goblins and orcs whenever possible. The lesser races have only one good purpose to the hobgoblin mindset-they make decent battle fodder. In mixed groups, hobgoblins often serve as officers in units of goblins or orcs. Hobgoblins have an extreme hatred of elves. When their opponents consist of mixed races, they always seek to destroy elves first. Role-Playing Suggestions. To hobgoblins, war is almost a religious experience. They fight for the glory of battle and to cause carnage, not to expand territory or right wrongs against them. Their outlook on war is much more pure then that. Conflict and strife are their meat and drink. Hobgoblin PCs are rare in the extreme, but those that do take up the life of adventurers usually fall into one of two patterns. The first is the hobgoblin pacifist. These individuals detest war, though they may be extremely good at its brutal arts. Having grown tired of the constant fighting, they leave their tribes and seek to find a new life somewhere away from their people. Of course, as battle is what they do best, they often find themselves using their militaristic arts to earn a living. However, at least as an adventurer they only have to fight when absolutely necessary. These type of characters will often wait until the last minute before entering a fray-not because they are cowards, but because they grow sick and tired of shedding blood. The second pattern of hobgoblin PCs are those who turn away from the evil of their society. They reject the hobgoblin gods and perhaps even discover the faith of a non-evil deity. These characters seek to make amends for their old life styles, trying to repair the damage the hobgoblins have done and continue to do in the name of glorious war. Even the best hobgoblin PCs find it hard to overcome all of their natural tendencies. Brutality, stoicism, courage, and cold-bloodedness are always with them, like dark cloaks they can never shed. Superstitions. Weakness is feared and actively destroyed in hobgoblin society. A weapon which breaks during combat is an extremely bad omen. Thought it might help our creative process a bit.
ragoftag 07-22-07, 09:01 AM	Homebrew: In my game, the whole goblin race 'family' are intruders cursed with a roiling mutation of a gene pool. New tribes that 'appear' have individuals that vary from Tiny to near Ogre-size. After a few generations, they breed fast, 'types' begin to appear, with Hobgoblins being a common form. Wild hobgoblins are cowardly bullies with no hint of discipline (Think back to the playground bully.), little better than thugs. A Wizard-King recruited some and put them under a harsh officer who turned them into a crack fighting unit. They proved to be an incredible success. For the past few centuries, units of hobgoblins have been favored enforcers of tyrants, but forbidden to 'own' land, etc. Then a religious conversion began (LE god) and several regiments proceeded to conquer their host employer's lands, then his neighbors', and so on. They are currently finding out how much of a hassle it is to actually rule as they build a LN (evil tendencies) nation. Think along the lines of the Mameluks or Janizaries, but I shall now have to graft on a 'Sparta' mystique. 'Wild Hobgoblins' exist, but they have adopted some of the ways of their civilized brethren, finding purpose in a rigid military life. Independent units and settlements are out there, but vary by local conditions. Hobgoblins will happily war upon each other over relatively minor details of hobgoblin life. EG: Orwald is a slaving town of just under two hundred hobgoblins and some thousand 'slaves'. It is the 'safe' place where one group of players in my game operate out of. I have a npc race of semi-intelligent 'lesser apes that happily live there under hobgoblin protection, technically 'enslaved'.
BaltotheJunkie 07-23-07, 04:39 PM	From the Second Edition Humanoids Handbook section on Hobgoblins. Background. Hobgoblins are stocky humanoids with hairy, dark red to dark gray hides. The typical hobgoblin is 6 1/2 feet tall, has yellow or dark brown eyes, and sharp yellow teeth. They favor brightly colored garments, especially outfits of blood red. This fierce race wages a perpetual war against other humanoid races. They exist in a military society, proud of their status, their fighting prowess, their battle standards, and the quality of their weapons. War is their way of life, and to be a warrior is the highest calling a hobgoblin can have. Even when different tribes of hobgoblins meet, there will likely be verbal abuse (85%) or open warfare (15%) unless a strong leader is present. Most hobgoblins dwell in subterranean complexes. A few tribes build fortified surface villages (about 20%). Hobgoblins consider themselves superior to the "lesser races," lording over goblins and orcs whenever possible. The lesser races have only one good purpose to the hobgoblin mindset-they make decent battle fodder. In mixed groups, hobgoblins often serve as officers in units of goblins or orcs. Hobgoblins have an extreme hatred of elves. When their opponents consist of mixed races, they always seek to destroy elves first. Role-Playing Suggestions. To hobgoblins, war is almost a religious experience. They fight for the glory of battle and to cause carnage, not to expand territory or right wrongs against them. Their outlook on war is much more pure then that. Conflict and strife are their meat and drink. Hobgoblin PCs are rare in the extreme, but those that do take up the life of adventurers usually fall into one of two patterns. The first is the hobgoblin pacifist. These individuals detest war, though they may be extremely good at its brutal arts. Having grown tired of the constant fighting, they leave their tribes and seek to find a new life somewhere away from their people. Of course, as battle is what they do best, they often find themselves using their militaristic arts to earn a living. However, at least as an adventurer they only have to fight when absolutely necessary. These type of characters will often wait until the last minute before entering a fray-not because they are cowards, but because they grow sick and tired of shedding blood. The second pattern of hobgoblin PCs are those who turn away from the evil of their society. They reject the hobgoblin gods and perhaps even discover the faith of a non-evil deity. These characters seek to make amends for their old life styles, trying to repair the damage the hobgoblins have done and continue to do in the name of glorious war. Even the best hobgoblin PCs find it hard to overcome all of their natural tendencies. Brutality, stoicism, courage, and cold-bloodedness are always with them, like dark cloaks they can never shed. Superstitions. Weakness is feared and actively destroyed in hobgoblin society. A weapon which breaks during combat is an extremely bad omen. Thought it might help our creative process a bit. Cheers for that. I was wondering if anyone had a copy of the old "Psychology of" series on humanoids- I think it was written by Roger Moore (not 007) in the Dragon, somewhere about issue 70s-80s- sorry I can't be more specific. It would be cool if someone could scan the text, or find a link to these old Dragon articles (before Paizo took over).
Optimator 07-23-07, 05:58 PM	I always pictured Hobgoblins as expansionary, but that's me. In my DM's campaign there is a large nation of hobgoblins. Their economy is stagnant because so much money is spent on the military, and a very large portion of them are in the military. Constant skirmishes with neighboring anybodies doesn't help either, although the country is technically open. Be sure to bring your passport. This limits their "influence" in the international field. Just thought I'd throw that out there; what a hobgoblin nation might be like.
Mojo_Rat 07-23-07, 07:49 PM	Bear with me as this is my first post on the boards but. Somewhere along the way in my gaming group there came an impression of an eastern flavor to hobgoblins. I do not actually know where this came from but It is something that has been around with friends i have played with for 15-20 years. in the 1st ed game that a friend of mine does he has the hobgoblins almost like s brutal daimyos with goblins or other slave races filling the peasant roles. alot of the hobgoblins have laquered armour with a few of the leadership with Katana etc. IT has worked well as a theme for them in his games but when i sat down to right this message I could not figure out where the eastern style hobgoblin theme actually came from.
BaltotheJunkie 07-23-07, 08:01 PM	Bear with me as this is my first post on the boards but. Somewhere along the way in my gaming group there came an impression of an eastern flavor to hobgoblins. I do not actually know where this came from but It is something that has been around with friends i have played with for 15-20 years. in the 1st ed game that a friend of mine does he has the hobgoblins almost like s brutal daimyos with goblins or other slave races filling the peasant roles. alot of the hobgoblins have laquered armour with a few of the leadership with Katana etc. IT has worked well as a theme for them in his games but when i sat down to right this message I could not figure out where the eastern style hobgoblin theme actually came from. Well, if you have the 1st edition AD&D Monster Manual, the picture of the hobgoblin does look vaguely Japanese, in terms of arms and armor.
BaltotheJunkie 07-25-07, 09:24 AM	I always pictured Hobgoblins as expansionary, but that's me. In my DM's campaign there is a large nation of hobgoblins. Their economy is stagnant because so much money is spent on the military, and a very large portion of them are in the military. Constant skirmishes with neighboring anybodies doesn't help either, although the country is technically open. Be sure to bring your passport. This limits their "influence" in the international field. Just thought I'd throw that out there; what a hobgoblin nation might be like. Good point. Papers (something that is neglected in many campaigns). An orc wouldn't even know which way to hold a passport (unless he saw the picture) but a hobgoblin nation probably would (Lawful Evil) want any visitors to have their papers in order.
BaltotheJunkie 07-31-07, 09:57 AM	Cheers for that. I was wondering if anyone had a copy of the old "Psychology of" series on humanoids- I think it was written by Roger Moore (not 007) in the Dragon, somewhere about issue 70s-80s- sorry I can't be more specific. It would be cool if someone could scan the text, or find a link to these old Dragon articles (before Paizo took over). So no one has these?
Omega_Grey 08-01-07, 03:56 AM	Well I know that I dont, sorry.
BaltotheJunkie 08-17-07, 06:03 PM	Well I know that I dont, sorry. No one ever does...
Hebitsuikaza 08-19-07, 07:48 PM	Here is my view on hobgoblins, quite a world away from a lot of what has been written here: Hobgoblin History and Castes The hobgoblin race was one that originally rose from the goblin population from those who saw their brothers and sisters as misguided and unwilling to use their natural talents to better their lives or try to get along with others. This small group began leading rebellions against the masters of the world, often coming into conflict with ogres tyrants and elven lords. They turned their race which had been previously considered merely vermin or slaves into a tangible threat. During these times they did much to clear a path for the emerging human race. The humans came to call these goblins "hobs" to differentiate them from the goblins who were likely to steal their children or eat them on sight. Over the years, the "hobs" did a lot to seperate themselves from the normal goblins. They became more independant, more free, more intelligent and more reflective. They took pride in their great intellect and prowess and became well known as pranksters, con artists and thieves. They became larger, longr-lived and stronger, many believe from interbreeding with the human populations. Some stories would even go as far to claim they gained some elven blood in them, however this seems impossible since by all accounts the strict, orderly elves were always at odds with the chaotic, unpredictable hobogblins, However, their numbers slowly began to dwindle over time since, while they were amorous and loved their children, they were often so carefree and adventurous that they often didn't take the time to breed or create families. Not wanting to fade into history, the hobgoblins gathered together and a leader was choosen to change the course of their race. New rules were decided by these leaders and tribes were created in hopes of repopulating their species. The leaders were given more and more power over time and the rules became more and more strict. Eventually two casts arouse out of the hobgoblin society. There were the large, powerful warriors who made up the bulk of the race. They stood far, far taller than the rest of their species, they came to live for warfare and were streamlined and raised from birth for battle. These warriors were at the disposal of the political cast who stood nearly a foot shorter and were far less physically imposing, but far more clever and manipulative. The higher caste of the hobgoblin society was no less deadly than the lower warrior cast. The hobgoblin leaders would lay political traps for one another, shame one another, assasinate their political enemies or frame them for crimes they would be executed for. The hobgoblin armies moved out across the world, gaining strength every day and winning victories against many enemies. However, the leaders began to focus less and less upon the war and more and more upon simply retaining their power while reducing the station of all others. Eventually the society crumbled in on itself and the warrior caste quickly moved to fill the power void. Yet, without the strong diplomatic and intrigue skills of the higher caste, the war soon went wrong. Military leaders could not hold their army together and it quickly began to break up into small, squabbling tribes. Many were eradicated, others escaped underground. In the end the race once again began to split, crumble and start to fade away. Most hobgoblins encountered are of the warrior cast, they are by far the most common and actively work to try to fight and conqueer other races. Sometimes members of the higher caste can still be found, however they are usually only single families located in the deepest, darkest corners of the world practicing forbidden sorcerery and surrounded by large armies of orcs and goblins. The original strand seems to have been removed from the world entirely, becoming merely myths and legends that are often left forgotten because of the destruction their descendants wrought. Hobgoblin Outcasts Although the race has been a strict, orderly, demoralizing race for many, many centuries, those hobgoblins who are dishonored or flee from their typically strict societies often begin to show signs of reverting. They are often very intelligent, calculating and underhanded creatures that slip through the ranks of other races, disguising themselves and making and breaking diplomatic ties quickly. Only a relatively small proportion of hobgoblins remain the same kind of obedient, war-centric warriors that they are within their own society. However, raised for warfare their skills still draw them quickly to martial occupations. They might become guards, mercenaries, bandits, or bodyguards, often raising up to the highest ranks due to their vigilance, speed and ferociousity. Yet, the longer and further they have strayed from the ranks of a hobgoblin horde, the less honorable and less sadistic they slowly seem to become.
BaltotheJunkie 08-26-07, 07:31 PM	Well, I'm not one to worship at the idol of D&D canon, but it is certainly an imaginitive, if not quite standard origin for hobgoblins. Wouldn't fit in my campaign at all, but what works for you works for you.
bhu 09-10-07, 03:44 AM	:bump: Anyone still out there?
Omega_Grey 09-10-07, 08:43 AM	Sure am.
ArkhamInmate 09-11-07, 05:05 PM	The way i use Hobgoblins is I have made them Devil worshipping raiders who for the most part utterly control a Australia sized continent on my campaign world and with the exception of their worship of the Archdukes have pretty much based them off of the ironborn from GRRM.s Song of Ice and Fire
Omega_Grey 09-11-07, 08:37 PM	I can imagine that a significant majority worship devils (particularly those with political aspirations). It seems to me that the Hobgoblins no-nonsense approach to life and the devils offer of power at a price go hand in hand with one another. Does anyone else think this should be explored further?
ArkhamInmate 09-11-07, 10:36 PM	I can imagine that a significant majority worship devils (particularly those with political aspirations). It seems to me that the Hobgoblins no-nonsense approach to life and the devils offer of power at a price go hand in hand with one another. Does anyone else think this should be explored further? It seems that quite a few people have made that connection(myself included) but i would say that wizards doesn't want to connect anyone race in their game exclusivly to worshipping devils and demons, hell it seem that any type of devil/demon worship is stuck off in the mature section of their sourcebooks
Omega_Grey 09-12-07, 01:33 PM	I can understand why they would be leery of making that sort of connection. Many uninitiated people would just get the wrong impression if they heard the term 'devil worship'. I've been thinking that we need to move on in the hobgoblin entry, maybe start focusing on the 'A day in the life' entry? If some people would be interested in sharing whatever they come up with that would be great.
ArkhamInmate 09-12-07, 03:04 PM	I can understand why they would be leery of making that sort of connection. Many uninitiated people would just get the wrong impression if they heard the term 'devil worship'. I've been thinking that we need to move on in the hobgoblin entry, maybe start focusing on the 'A day in the life' entry? If some people would be interested in sharing whatever they come up with that would be great. I think i'm going to write "A day in the life of a hobgoblin" when i get to work, i'll post it on here later
Omega_Grey 09-12-07, 03:49 PM	Sweet, I'm working on one as well, I look forward to seeing yours.
shades of eternity 09-12-07, 05:53 PM	same here I love this thread :)
bhu 09-13-07, 03:26 AM	Taking writing sign ups now in the main thread: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=862300 If you wanna do something for the hobgoblins, drop me a PM or post there.
ArkhamInmate 11-08-07, 07:13 PM	Ya know looking over this thread and reading the things about injured Hobgoblins made me thing of Starship Troopers, not the horrible horrible movie, but of the book, we're pretty much every person who is in the military, fights, I mean the idea of a highly militarized race that would leave even semi abled members back in camp to say cook/clean or repair items just seems wasteful to me
HCL 11-08-07, 08:40 PM	you are going to be $.02 richer! my impression is that goblinoids are "usally lawful evil" because they think in a different way than humanoids do- they lack the concept of "respect". Hobgoblins dont all sleep in a single room, and beat up the weak and rape the women the way other goblinoids and orcs do, and for this reason they dont take the charisma penalty and can actually carry on a conversation with humanoids. Hobgoblins can be nuetral, but never good. They do not get any good feelings out of giving to those weaker than themselves, and a hobgoblin would never willingly sacrifice their life or possessions for anyone. However they are not prejudiced, they see other races as equal to them but want to become better than the rest. They work together with others to further their own goals, and respect the authority of those more powerful than themselves.
ArkhamInmate 11-08-07, 08:58 PM	you are going to be $.02 richer! And in prolonged wars(something they seem to be very good at) that .02 cents will add up Hobgoblins dont beat up the weak and rape the women We never really said they did, in fact this thread seems to be more aimed at the lawful and warlike aspects of goblinoid cultures Hobgoblins can be nuetral, but never good. I'm sorry I just can't agree with that statement However they are not prejudiced, they see other races as equal to them but want to become better than the rest. Here's another one i just can't wrap my head around, Hobgoblins are prejudiced against other races and would see them as less than equals, any culture that is militarized to that extant would of course see any non mlitary based culture as a weak and pathetic one not worth their notice except as conquest They work together with others to further their own goals With the overly arrogant view of themselves i don't think Hobgoblins could work with anyone unless they are clearly the superior respect the authority of those more powerful than themselves. Also I wouldn't use the term respect, but i wouldn't put past the little buggers to try and figure out a way to take away the advantage of their more powerful foes and use it for themselves
DonThelonious 12-07-07, 07:01 PM	Bibbity Bobbity :bump: Raise Thread
shades of eternity 04-08-08, 09:33 PM	I had this crazy idea. perhaps instead of culling "inperfect specimens" of their own species, they instead trade them to wizards to upgrade them, allowing mutant hobgoblins within the mix that are used as shock troops. maybe this is something that's done by their own spellcasters (seeing as we thought above most hobgob spellcasters are female, it really adds an interesting twist to the whole thing). maybe some sort of funky template like "children of bel" supplanted on them. plus hobgobs, being hobgobs, they may have several systematic formulas, that determine what they get. One could be basically a grundy type hobgob mutation (matures quickly and is basically very strong and tough, but dies young), another could be more receptive to arcane energy (which would explain the hobgob sorcerors). I am sure we can think of other ideas.
bhu 04-09-08, 01:36 AM	I do intend to do a "Lab Experiment" PrC for goblinoids. Will prolly be first in line soon as I finish the Orc stuff.
UnderworldLord 04-12-08, 12:19 PM	In one of the noels I read recently, a character was a Hobgoblin Bard, who sang songs of glory for the Hobgoblin empire, long past. Yes, that was Eberron, but I don't see why every other respectable Hobgoblin wouldn't want songs of his glory to be sang years later. Being the most ordered and warlike or the main three goblinoid species, its easy to see hobgoblin armies, marching in formations with cavalry, infantry, and pike, archer, artillery, and magic brigades, all bearing standards, competing for the greatest glory in battle. Goblins would be incorporated as scouts, if intelligent, or fodder. Bugbear Barbarians would be armored down and used as living siege engines, running in first with a heavy morningstar, and raging for all its worth. Others would merely take a spot on the Infantry line, forgoing the hobgoblins shield to use brute strength, both hands on his mace to sweep away opponents. The army would have bards with each company to inspire confidence with the songs of glory, clerics to heal the wounded, and buff the weak to stand even with the strong. Hobgoblin leaders would be warblades or fighters, or other melee classes. Their weapons would be a symbol of status... hobgoblins using the preferred flail would be equivelent in status to a knight or samurai, while those wielding dire flails or chains would be elite specialists in taking down enemies for enslavement.
Hellsbells 04-26-08, 09:40 AM	Don't know if this has been covered but anyone notice how the hobgobs in ToB look more like corrupted elves then the MM Hobgoblins? They're also Green.
bhu 04-28-08, 12:13 AM	I did think of something. Does it list height/weight/age charts etc for hobgoblins anywhere?
shades of eternity 05-11-08, 11:41 PM	somebody did one in the main thread. additionally I found something that confirmed my hobgoblin experiments. I was looking through some old dnd stuff and found ...the thoul. basically a hobgoblin/troll/ghoul hibrid. so if this can be explained this could be the tip of the iceberg :D also any update on a goblinoid alphabet and common words?
bhu 05-12-08, 04:47 AM	Hobgoblin with Half Troll and Ghoulish Creature templates.....eeeeeewwww... Most of hte names Ive seen for the hobs sound vaguely eastern. Somewhere in the region where eastern europe and asia meet up. I'll look into it more.
bhu 05-14-08, 03:33 AM	I'd use the Mongolian language. Seems close enough.
dulsi 09-20-08, 09:19 PM	Ever wanted to transform your hobgoblin into a dolgaunt? (Probably not if you've taken a look at what those things look like.) For some reason I did. Here is a Hobgoblin to Dolgaunt (http://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=969) monster class.
Zathress 09-21-08, 07:04 PM	Here's a bit on Hobgoblins in my own campaign setting of Terra Nara. Including slightly altered racial stats, I never found they had any racial abilities befiting of thier power, nor did I feel it was quite worth the +1 level adjustment. Here are the Hobgoblins I use. Hobgoblins of Terra Nara +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution. A hobgoblin’s base land speed is 30 feet. Darkvision out to 60 feet. +4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks. Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Infernal, Giant, Orc, Imperial * Armor Training: Hobgoblins are bred for war. When battle can begin at a moments notice to be caught unarmored is almost certain death. Hobgoblins may sleep in medium or light armor without becoming fatigued. If they possess the endurance feat they may also sleep in heavy armor without penalty. * Cunning Flanker: A Hobgoblins are masters of cooperation in combat. While flanking they gain a +4 bonus on attack rolls instead of the usual +2. Now that their altered racial stats are out of the way I'll get into more. Like in most worlds and stated above Hobgobins are a race born for war and conquest. The live lives of strict military discipline even those unfortunate enough not be warriors. For thousands of years the hobgoblins marched to war. Always on the move, always fighting, always dying, always pushing to expand. For all their might, discipline and prowess there was one thing they never archived a true nation. All attempts to unify a large number of hobgoblins was ulitimately doomed to failure, either by power hungry underlings or meddlesome adventures. Tribes competed with each other over territory treasure and often the favor of Maglubiyet. The Garr Empire now mightiest of nations began recruiting hobgoblin mercenaries from its early days to feed its own campaigns of conquest and to maintain order on conquered territories. In time the number of Hobgoblins grew until they established their own nation with in the Empire a vassel state called Voradoom. The Imperial Citizens could handle the support and supply for the hobgoblin forces as easily as they did for the rest of the Imperial army. Today some 1.5 million Hobgoblins are a part of the Garr Empire. Many have never seen Voradoom but still consider themselves citizens by virtue of there race. To the hobgoblins the Empire is a tool to wage war, conquer new lands and have and be a apart of the greatest army in the entire world. A place where they can devoute them selves fully to war and let peasents and slaves of other races take care of mundane tasks of living. Despite this, being under Imperial Rule as opposed to strictly goblin has freed many hobgoblins to engage in pursuits not related to war at all. Though often shunned as cowards by their own kind. To the empire the Hobgoblins are a race of soldiers. When a human imperial soldiger dies you have a greaving family. To many greaving families in one area and you risk rebellion. When a hobgobin dies in battle his family toast the fallen’s bravery and vows to avenge his death. They exploit each other but are still perfectly happy the arrangement. Contributing to the hobgobiin unification in the Empire if the God of Tyrants Rexranus. In a simplistic explanation the dogma of the God of Tyrants is that strength, order and security are far more important then freedom and justice. The world is a place of chaos and anarchy and only the strict regime and control of tyranny can bring order and security to the world. These ideas that appealed greatly to many hobgoblins. The Empire has done much to encourage this as Maglubiyet demands loyalty to himself and by virtue goblinkind thus can't be trusted by the Empire. Rexranus demands supreme loyalty to the state and maintaining order, thus In Voradoom the worship of Maglubiyet is infact illegal and the official religion for Hobgoblins of the Empire is Rexranus. The result of which is those goblins still loyal to Maglubiyet fiercely hate the empire and those hobgoblins who've chosen to join them and strive daily to undermine it.
dulsi 10-05-08, 09:26 AM	There was an altered hobgoblin in Polyhedron #55. I converted the chakchak to 3.5 (http://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?p=12231#p12231).