Races with EL and no hit dice... a solution. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Races with EL and no hit dice... a solution. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Loopy
07-06-07, 08:01 AM This may seem like a complete "duh" moment, but I think I've come up with a solution you may want to present to your players.

I recently had a player who wanted to play a death knight in my campaign, but the LA on the thing is through the roof. I explained to him that a front-line combatant (which is what he wanted to build with it) would probably be decimated due to his lack of hit dice and the benefits thereof.

Then I thought, hey, why not let him keep his hit dice and just strip away class features that are comprable to the racial features he gets? In the end, we developed an entire warrior-type class that allowed him to be a front-line warrior and retain his character concept.

I've seen players who are reluctant to take EL 1 and 2 monsters because the benefits do not outweigh the loss of a level (like Planetouched or Hobgoblins), especially in the higher levels. Why not, instead, strip away a few character abilities comprable to the benefits gained as they progress in level?

Has anyone else done this? It seems pretty darn reasonable.
Warforged Goblin
07-06-07, 09:13 AM That actually isn't a bad idea, I like it.
NoldorForce
07-06-07, 02:22 PM You're not alone in this - I've seen things like the concept of Destiny Levels (commoner HD, essentially) to replace LA.

Of course, this isn't a very precise method, but playing things by ear will still work with a competent DM and players.
Breetai
07-06-07, 02:42 PM This is the one thing Savage Species got right in theory. The Problem that creep in is Creatures with Big Level adjustments Hit Dice Ect... The HD/LA system dosn't cover everything consistantly and stay balanced. ehh it does in general, sure but when you involve min/maxing it breaks down. In order to keep it balanced you've got to house rule a bunch of stuff.
tui
07-06-07, 02:47 PM You might want to take a look at the Savage Progressions (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/sp) that WotC has on their website. That sounds a lot like what you're trying to do.
NoldorForce
07-06-07, 03:46 PM You might want to take a look at the Savage Progressions (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/sp) that WotC has on their website. That sounds a lot like what you're trying to do.The problem there and with LA in general is that losing hit dice tends to have sizable detriment to the character, such as with hit points, skill points, and any number of effects that key off of hit dice. (The Words of Alignment are a notorious example.)

You'll still need to pay something for the benefits - here, you're paying with class features, which seems quite appropriate considering some of their effects.
AZNsupermarket
07-06-07, 09:05 PM My solution for this problem has always been the same:

Step 1: Find a balanced LA +0 race that is somewhat similar to the race with the high LA. (I.E. a raptoran instead of an avariel, a fire elf instead of a tiefling, a neanderthal or half-orc instead of a goliath, etc etc)
Step 2: Take the LA +0 race's stats, but make the creature look, act, and have the flavor of the high LA race.
Step 3: Change, alter, or get rid of abilities that no longer fit flavor-wise. You can also add new abilities, but this should be done with caution in order not to over-power this new race.
Step 4: Make sure that the changes made are balanced compared to the original race.
Step 5: Have the player play the race with the warning that if something about the custom made race turns out to be unexpectedly overpowered, you will have to alter it in some ways.

The End - everyones happy: Player gets to play the race he really wanted to play. The party is happy that the PC is not underpowered.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Loopy 07-06-07, 08:01 AM	This may seem like a complete "duh" moment, but I think I've come up with a solution you may want to present to your players. I recently had a player who wanted to play a death knight in my campaign, but the LA on the thing is through the roof. I explained to him that a front-line combatant (which is what he wanted to build with it) would probably be decimated due to his lack of hit dice and the benefits thereof. Then I thought, hey, why not let him keep his hit dice and just strip away class features that are comprable to the racial features he gets? In the end, we developed an entire warrior-type class that allowed him to be a front-line warrior and retain his character concept. I've seen players who are reluctant to take EL 1 and 2 monsters because the benefits do not outweigh the loss of a level (like Planetouched or Hobgoblins), especially in the higher levels. Why not, instead, strip away a few character abilities comprable to the benefits gained as they progress in level? Has anyone else done this? It seems pretty darn reasonable.
Warforged Goblin 07-06-07, 09:13 AM	That actually isn't a bad idea, I like it.
NoldorForce 07-06-07, 02:22 PM	You're not alone in this - I've seen things like the concept of Destiny Levels (commoner HD, essentially) to replace LA. Of course, this isn't a very precise method, but playing things by ear will still work with a competent DM and players.
Breetai 07-06-07, 02:42 PM	This is the one thing Savage Species got right in theory. The Problem that creep in is Creatures with Big Level adjustments Hit Dice Ect... The HD/LA system dosn't cover everything consistantly and stay balanced. ehh it does in general, sure but when you involve min/maxing it breaks down. In order to keep it balanced you've got to house rule a bunch of stuff.
tui 07-06-07, 02:47 PM	You might want to take a look at the Savage Progressions (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/sp) that WotC has on their website. That sounds a lot like what you're trying to do.
NoldorForce 07-06-07, 03:46 PM	You might want to take a look at the Savage Progressions (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/sp) that WotC has on their website. That sounds a lot like what you're trying to do.The problem there and with LA in general is that losing hit dice tends to have sizable detriment to the character, such as with hit points, skill points, and any number of effects that key off of hit dice. (The Words of Alignment are a notorious example.) You'll still need to pay something for the benefits - here, you're paying with class features, which seems quite appropriate considering some of their effects.
AZNsupermarket 07-06-07, 09:05 PM	My solution for this problem has always been the same: Step 1: Find a balanced LA +0 race that is somewhat similar to the race with the high LA. (I.E. a raptoran instead of an avariel, a fire elf instead of a tiefling, a neanderthal or half-orc instead of a goliath, etc etc) Step 2: Take the LA +0 race's stats, but make the creature look, act, and have the flavor of the high LA race. Step 3: Change, alter, or get rid of abilities that no longer fit flavor-wise. You can also add new abilities, but this should be done with caution in order not to over-power this new race. Step 4: Make sure that the changes made are balanced compared to the original race. Step 5: Have the player play the race with the warning that if something about the custom made race turns out to be unexpectedly overpowered, you will have to alter it in some ways. The End - everyones happy: Player gets to play the race he really wanted to play. The party is happy that the PC is not underpowered.