Post/Author/DateTime	Post
skio 02-16-07, 10:37 AM	You definitely have noticed how many people complain why are orcs and kobolds not standard races despite their popularity. The answer given by most is because these races are evil, thus unsuitable for PCs. To compensate for this, WotC created races like the half-orcs or the changilings, being watered-down orcs and doppelgangers (the changeling is actually more balanced than the doppelganger, but with only a minor changes). The question is: why play a half-orc instead of an orc? Who said that orcs are ALWAYS evil? Why not create a full orc character that completely qualifies as a hero instead of just a savage? IMHO the answer is STEREOTYPES. You want to play an orc and someone comes and says: 'orcs are EVIL, you cannot play them! Play a half-orc. It's only a weak version of the orc, but at least it is not evil.' We have witnessed good drows, gnolls as a noble race (RotW) and yet no one dares to say ok, maybe orcs are not so bad, may they can even be a standard race. Sticking to a stereotype and using dubious ways to work around it (ie half-orc/ogre/troll/whatever) is not a solution. I am currently designing a homebrew setting, where orcs are a standard race (despite being plain typical orcs) and half-orcs are only a small paragraph at the end of the race book, existing just because they are kind of a 'norm.' The same of course goes with all such half-breed races created only to replace their parent races just because they are considered 'savage', 'evil' or unbalanced' (balance can always be fixed). Example:Take an Eberron doppelganger, write a nice fluff that supports him as a PC, change a bit the description of Alter Self so that it is more balanced (clothes and equipment do not change), excahnge detect thoughts with a few skill bonuses and, boom, there you have a doppelganger standard race PC! No need for changelings! And another question: What is the purpose of half-elves existing? Can anyone tell me?
Rogue Shadows 02-16-07, 10:41 AM	Who said Orcs are evil? Gruumsh, their creator. Plus most of their leaders. But it's a good point nonetheless. Adventurers are supposed to be the exception, not the rule.
Drag0nUL 02-16-07, 11:13 AM	Who said Orcs are evil? Gruumsh, their creator. Plus most of their leaders. But it's a good point nonetheless. Adventurers are supposed to be the exception, not the rule. Can't agree more. Most sane people will not leave their farm/workshop/store/whatever, pick up a sword and start wandering through dungeons. As for racial stereotypes, I hate them out of game (like when the DM/other players say: 'your paladin is now a vampire, he's now evil because it says in the book'). In game on the other hand, some stereotypes make for great roleplay opportunities. One of my most roleplay-intensive(and rewarding) characters has been a minotaur paladin. Despite him being LG to the extreme, most people's reactions were between simply avoiding him and attacking on sight. And kobolds are great fun to play. Kobold barbarians rule. And remember, Pun-Pun himself is a kobold.
PolasKasDorion 02-16-07, 11:22 AM	I enjoy in-game stereotypes... it can make for some nice roleplaying when you happen to be a less-than-loved race.... at least when the DM is willing to play along. I've got an exceptionally powerful Kobold Sorcerer running right now, and I've been able to take advantage of the fact that no one has any respect for Kobolds. Saying that, I completely agree that the whole "always evil" thign is a little rough. In Book of Exalted Deeds they provided a path to redemption for some characters... which I thought was pretty cool. Then there's the Evangelist who can convert you to his alignment through a series of failed will saves... which is a funny commentary on religion if you think about it. Not saying it's right... just funny. I made an Orc-Dragonborn Paladin once... never actually got to play it, but I really liked the idea behind it. He was a lot more forgiving and merciful than your average Paladin because he felt that he had been forgiven so much. Most of the time it just comes down to lazy DMs who don't want to work anything out. Or worse, moronic players who just want to utilize the +4 CON, and whine that creatures can't be "always" evil just so they can get a stat buff. In my experience, that's usually the case. Anywho... just my two copper... and I'm at work, so I should probably do that. :P
skio 02-16-07, 03:03 PM	In game on the other hand, some stereotypes make for great roleplay opportunities. One of my most roleplay-intensive(and rewarding) characters has been a minotaur paladin. Despite him being LG to the extreme, most people's reactions were between simply avoiding him and attacking on sight. I totally agree with this. In game stereotypes are bound to exist and going against the grain is always a great RP opportunity. What I complain about is the OoG stereotypes imposed by the books. They give you the half-orc so that they do not meddle with the orc stereotype. Why not? Is it so against the 'rules' to give a more liberal view of a race? Why creating a variation of the race just to fit in specific requirments when the original race itself can do it perfectly? I would be glad if you checked out the races of my setting here (http://members.lycos.co.uk/skiovatis) under the tab 'Aethral.' The crunch still sucks but I'm working on it.
AMGriffin 02-16-07, 06:26 PM	You definitely have noticed how many people complain why are orcs and kobolds not standard races despite their popularity. The answer given by most is because these races are evil, thus unsuitable for PCs. To compensate for this, WotC created races like the half-orcs or the changilings, being watered-down orcs and doppelgangers (the changeling is actually more balanced than the doppelganger, but with only a minor changes). You think half-orcs (or orcs) are suitable as PCs in terms of gameplay? Hah. The question is: why play a half-orc instead of an orc? Who said that orcs are ALWAYS evil? Why not create a full orc character that completely qualifies as a hero instead of just a savage? I believe the description in the MM is that orcs are "usually chaotic evil" not "Always chaotic evil." This is reasonable if you go by the traditional orc flavor. After all their culture trains them to be violent maruders who rape and kill their enemies. Noble heroic orcs are not out of the question. Perhaps this orc was raised by two unique parents, became disillusioned with evil, or was found and raised by benevolent parents. IMHO the answer is STEREOTYPES. You want to play an orc and someone comes and says: 'orcs are EVIL, you cannot play them! Play a half-orc. It's only a weak version of the orc, but at least it is not evil. The answer I think is shoddy creation. Orcs are quite good as barbarians and fighters, but totally SUCK at everything else. I don't really think good/evil comes into play in this. Or else you wouldn't have Wotc allowing evil aligned PCs without some kind of penalty. We have witnessed good drows, gnolls as a noble race (RotW) and yet no one dares to say ok, maybe orcs are not so bad, may they can even be a standard race. Sticking to a stereotype and using dubious ways to work around it (ie half-orc/ogre/troll/whatever) is not a solution. I'd rather not have orcs as they are described in the MM, they are even more pidgeon holed then half-orcs. Fixing them up ain't a bad idea though. I am currently designing a homebrew setting, where orcs are a standard race (despite being plain typical orcs) and half-orcs are only a small paragraph at the end of the race book, existing just because they are kind of a 'norm.' If you're going to rewrite orcs, then do the same for half-orcs. Half-orcs are far too interesting a character concept to just throw out. The same of course goes with all such half-breed races created only to replace their parent races just because they are considered 'savage', 'evil' or unbalanced' (balance can always be fixed). Well if you have no evil races then you have no real conflict dude. Plus you seem to grossly underestimate the roleplaying potential lots of these races have. And another question: What is the purpose of half-elves existing? Can anyone tell me? Because humans and elves enjoying getting it on from time to time. They too, even more then half-orcs get the ultimate shaft. That said, I've homebrewed Orcs, Half-orcs, and half-elves.
bob_the_great 02-16-07, 06:48 PM	stereotypes don't bug me as much as racial emnities. I have a half-orc who likes neither orcs nor humans due to his inability to fit into either society. oh, and elves and dwarves naturally dislike him. hooray for making friends in the party!
PiedmonSama 02-17-07, 01:06 AM	Well if you have no evil races then you have no real conflict dude. Plus you seem to grossly underestimate the roleplaying potential lots of these races have. Publeh, 'evil races' (excluding the explicitly demonic/diabolic) are just as outlandish in concept as a Lawful Good government.... we manage to have plenty of conflict in the real world despite having only one 'race.' I think even if you threw out the traditional good race/bad race fluff on every race, you could still get plenty of conflict.... in fact, that's what the whole idea behind settings like Eberron is, pretty much....
Rogue Shadows 02-17-07, 09:18 AM	Remember that the Monster Manual clarifies that "always" does not, in fact, mean "always," bur rather "99% of the time" Like, 99% of the time, a succubus is going to be Chaotic Evil. But every once in awhile, you get a Neutral Evil, or even Chaotic Neutral. (Generally, I think that alignmnent changes should work in steps, like with a Cleric).
AMGriffin 02-17-07, 11:33 AM	Publeh, 'evil races' (excluding the explicitly demonic/diabolic) are just as outlandish in concept as a Lawful Good government.... we manage to have plenty of conflict in the real world despite having only one 'race.' I think even if you threw out the traditional good race/bad race fluff on every race, you could still get plenty of conflict.... in fact, that's what the whole idea behind settings like Eberron is, pretty much.... I'm just talking about culturally. Orc culture (in most definitions) is one of pillaging and raiding. Sometimes they're portrayed in a positive light, look at the Warcraft orcs (which I love BTW). And I believe it's mentioned in DND "worlds" that good and evil are not philosophical concepts, but forces that define the universe.
monkofcuthbert4684 02-19-07, 11:17 AM	I've been bugging my DM to let me play a kobold for years. I hate it when people stereotype races.
Rogue Shadows 02-20-07, 09:35 AM	If it is true more then 50% of the time, is it really a stereotype? Just wondering. More then 50% of all orcs are Chaotic Evil. If you meet one, there's a 50% chance it's CE, and the remaining 50% is divided evenly amongst the other alignments - roughly 6% per alignment other then Chaotic Evil. So you are 62% likely to encounter an Evil orc - Almost two out of every three you meet. So is "orcs are evil" really a stereotype, which almost by definition must be untrue?
Andyr 02-20-07, 10:05 AM	More then 50% of all orcs are Chaotic Evil. If you meet one, there's a 50% chance it's CE, and the remaining 50% is divided evenly amongst the other alignments - roughly 6% per alignment other then Chaotic Evil. I don't know whether this part (emphasis mine) necessarily follows: if a race is usually CE, I'd expect the most represented of the other alignments to be CN and NE.
Xenu 02-20-07, 04:27 PM	IMHO the answer is STEREOTYPES. You want to play an orc and someone comes and says: 'orcs are EVIL, you cannot play them! Play a half-orc. It's only a weak version of the orc, but at least it is not evil.' Aye, the stereotypes are the problem, However, this problem works both ways. Allow, drow, and you'll be swarmed with Drizzt wannabes, complete with their standard issue dual scimitars. Allow orcs, and you might very soon get the feeling that you have been transported to the World of Warcraft. Personally, I love good characters of evil races, but I prefer when it's evil races that hasn't been cuddled to death allready. Lawful Good Medusa Paladin FTW. ;-)
arjomanes 02-20-07, 04:41 PM	You could look at eberron to see how orcs and goblins and such are treated- theyre still somewhat unpopular, but not quite so much as in the default D&D setting. There's no reason orcs need to be feared and reviled in every society. In some societies dwarves could be seen as greedy and warlike, or elves as imperialistic, or halflings as weak or thieves. Depending on your campaign world, some nations may be more narrow-minded than others, or everyone could be open-minded and tolerant. If you want to try to adapt a strictly medieval mindset to fantasy races, then chances are there may very well be lots of suspicion, fear and bigotry against other races, nations, classes, religions, etc.
Rogue Shadows 02-21-07, 09:28 AM	I don't know whether this part (emphasis mine) necessarily follows: if a race is usually CE, I'd expect the most represented of the other alignments to be CN and NE. Well, honestly, that's what I'd expect as well, but I went with the other way 'cause it's easier to calculate out. In either case, the question remains: is a stereotype that's true really a stereotype?
Aramist 02-21-07, 03:09 PM	As for Half-Elves they are my favorite to play they get a couple bonuses on all sides and roleplaying is all kinds of fun
Seldriss 02-21-07, 03:14 PM	What determines the alignment of a PC or a NPC should be the way he/she is played, not what's written in the Monster Manual. Being played as a character makes an individual unique, and thus he/she can escape the common stereotypes. This is one of the major idea of a roleplaying game.
Skritz_the_Lizardmen 02-24-07, 11:05 AM	Defining evil is tuff... Orc are not "Evil", or at least an "Evil Race". They are simply more brutish and aggressive. They are instinct-driven and more "Survival of the fittest" then human. They have a rather crude and violent culture but they aren't really "Evil" if you compare them to other thing. Thing that are really Pure evil: -Demon -Devil -Yugoloth -Illithid -Evil God -Pseudonatural half-illithid fiendish tarrasque of legend (Really, its nasty!)
Kursk 02-24-07, 03:09 PM	I let the players play whatever LA 0 race they want. There may be problems that they have to deal with like prejudice, suspicion, lynching, etc., but they can play it. I don't see why not.
JulesCARV 02-24-07, 03:25 PM	Sure, you can play a neutral or good orc adventurer, but what's wrong with playing a CE orc adventurer anyway? Unless, that is, your DM has some sort of "no evil PCs" rule. A CE orc adventurer would be a great excuse to play a "classical" adventurer of the rough-hewn "kill the enemies, steal the treasure, brag at the town tavern, and bang the barmaid" type.
Marcotic 02-25-07, 12:37 AM	I think that one of the reasons that they don't have orcs as a standard race is because it does the whole barbarian thing much better then there "best Barbarian" the half-orc, (not saying that the HO IS the definitive best but that seems to be his role huh? that or cleric, HO's are better at cleric then barb in this ones opinion) of course a orc cleric couldn't be done so well.
JD44 02-25-07, 12:42 AM	The DM can always allow you to play to Good Orc character. But for them to be added as a core race there’s no need, for the reason stated above.
BlakesTiger 02-25-07, 02:30 AM	I have not encountered the "You cannot play X because they are evil" situation. What I have encountered, agree with, and use when I DM a game is the following argument: "You cannot play X because in the vast majority of the places the characters will be going, they are reviled, feared, and possibly attacked on sight and that is a situation that I do not want to govern every time you want your character to accompany the party into a village or town as it will interfere with, derail, or detract from the game's plot." If the player is running a PC that causes more difficulty for the party to buy supplies, do simple negotiations, or gather information, and possibly forces them to fight or avoid fights with innocents every other session, then the player is making (possibly unintentionally) the game all about them. It's no longer about a "role playing challenge" as it is shining a big, bright spotlight on one's self. I would disagree with the idea that a race cannot be a playable character in any situation because the alignment listed in the MM, but the above situation is what I have encountered as opposed to the OP described response. I can also imagine a campaign where the PCs are not heroes so much as brigands and the chaos caused by an orc walking into a city would be enjoyable, but that would need to be part of the premise of the game, otherwise not everyone playing is on the same page and odds are good that someone wouldn't be having fun. Half-orcs have come and gone as PC races over the editions. I'm not entirely certain what the OP is asking when asking about the purpose of the half-orc (or half-elf). However, I'm of the opinion that the CORE races are present more out of tradition and their association with common thematic patterns than their statistical function. In the case of the Half-orc, it would be the maligned child born out of unfortunate circumstances who rises above them to become a hero. The Half-elf represents the ill-fated union of a near-immortal fey being and a mortal who fades like a flower and turns to dust in a relative blink of an eye. The former demonstrates Man Overcoming His Origins; the latter demonstrates Love Produces Goodness. The above is entirely conjecture. In truth, I rarely concern myself with why things are or are not CORE and simply negotiate with my DM or my players to determine what is and is not allowable in our game based on what will be most entertaining and enjoyable for all participating.
paladin2019 02-25-07, 03:36 AM	(Don't know if it's already been posted) Orcs, as Tolkien created them, are the fallen elves who sided with the "Great Evil Entity (TM)." As such, they cursed their line into eternity, commiting them to the serve GEE and his successors forever. So, they're eeeeeeevil. Are D&D's orcs the same? IMC, yes*. They are raised evil. Everyone knows this. They's all eeeeevil, and only good fer killin'! (Nits and lice anyone?) The response of the human-centric campaign's NPCs is quite racist. It is also based on long experience with both the orcs' raids and their practices. Could you play a non-evil orc, or could one exist? It's possible, but I'm not creating the NPC and it would have to be a really good backstory for a PC (likely the result of a prior PC's actions). And to echo someone else, playing a character who will be KoS pretty much everywhere the other players go for downtime is very unfair to them. *And yes, this does mean that (elf)=(orc). Imagine the elf ranger's surprise when the the slain warchief's sword starts to feel gooood in his hand. Almost like it was made for him....:schemes:
AMGriffin 02-25-07, 09:33 AM	How a six foot six, 280 pound tank of muscle with tusks could be the same species as a five foot 90 pound flimsy flower is beyond me.
paladin2019 02-25-07, 01:25 PM	Well, I never envisioned orcs as six foot tank, but then I never subscribed to the 3.x changes they went through either. Thanx, Mike :rolleyes:
strenoth 02-25-07, 01:57 PM	Sure, you can play a neutral or good orc adventurer, but what's wrong with playing a CE orc adventurer anyway? Unless, that is, your DM has some sort of "no evil PCs" rule. A CE orc adventurer would be a great excuse to play a "classical" adventurer of the rough-hewn "kill the enemies, steal the treasure, brag at the town tavern, and bang the barmaid" type. >.> <.< :smirk: :devil: Off topic but funny: Rolls dice* "Fine, you're drunk" "Are there any chicks in the bar? "What?" "If there are, I wanna doooo them!" :D
JulesCARV 02-25-07, 02:25 PM	I guess my point is, stereotypical orcs are very strong, risk-loving, greedy, and violent. What profession is well suited to these traits? Perhaps a doctor? No, doesn't seem quite right. A carpenter, maybe! Wait, wait... that's not it. How 'bout a farmer? Nah. An investigative journalist? Doesn't quite fit, it seems. Hmm... what possible profession is there that rewards violence and strength, is immensely risky, and presents great possible short-term rewards? I know! Adventuring! My point is, orcs needn't be weirdo exceptions to be suitable as PCs. Well, all PCs are supposed to be exceptional and weird to some extent, whether dwarf, human, or halfling, but orcs make fine adventurers while deviating no more, and maybe less, from the usual racial stereotypes about orcs than other races.
AMGriffin 02-25-07, 04:09 PM	Well to some extent they'd still have to be different then most orcs regardless of their alignment to leave their tribe or clan to go venture out into the world of the weaklings and even travel with humans, elves, dwarves, and the like. I figure orcs (well the ones of the MM variety) are pretty ethnocentric and would have lots of problems travelling with non-orcs.
JulesCARV 02-25-07, 06:45 PM	Well to some extent they'd still have to be different then most orcs regardless of their alignment to leave their tribe or clan to go venture out into the world of the weaklings and even travel with humans, elves, dwarves, and the like. I figure orcs (well the ones of the MM variety) are pretty ethnocentric and would have lots of problems travelling with non-orcs. True, but elves and dwarves are often portrayed as being similarly community-oriented and race-centric, but that doesn't stop them from being suitable PC adventurers.
paladin2019 02-25-07, 07:41 PM	risk-loving, Since when???? Oh yeah, 3.x and their change to chaotic.
Ogrebear 02-27-07, 07:42 AM	Would people still consider Orcs unsuitable as player characters if they still had their 1st Ed alignment of LE?
Ogrebear 02-27-07, 08:17 AM	IMHO allowing Orc PC's comes down to the world you are playing in. for example: If you are playing Midnight (http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/midnight.html) then PC Orcs are part of the setting but are not the hordes of FR being disciplined and organized. In Ebberon Orcs are accepted and have a clannish culture who's Druids have saved the world more than once- defiantly stereotype breaking. On the Dawnforge (http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/dawnforge.html) world Orcs are civilized and 'not come under the sway of a dark lord' - its certainly possible to play Orcs and as heroes stop any 'fall from grace' Even on Greyhawk its possible to mix things up a bit and do different things with Orcs- in Ivid the Undying TSR had a bunch of Orcs settle down on the shore and build a town page 106 here (http://www.io.com/~wmallman/files/Ivid%20sans%20maps.pdf) Don't like the situation for Orcs in your world? Don't like the traditional Orc culture? Don't want Orcs as 'monsters' or CE? Simple answer: Change it.
spyone 02-27-07, 10:10 AM	To compensate for this, WotC created races like the half-orcs or the changilings, being watered-down orcs and doppelgangers (the changeling is actually more balanced than the doppelganger, but with only a minor changes). I'd like to point out that half-orcs have been with us since first edition, so WotC didn't make them. IMHO the answer is STEREOTYPES. You want to play an orc and someone comes and says: 'orcs are EVIL, you cannot play them! Play a half-orc. It's only a weak version of the orc, but at least it is not evil.' And, back in first edition half-orcs weren't necissarily "evil", but they were "non-good". That's right, a half-orc was prohibited from taking a good alignment. Because the apple doesn't fall too far from the tree, and orcs are evil. Most DMs in my experience discourage Orc PCs not on the grounds that orcs are evil, but that most human (and demi-human) settlements reaction to orcs is kill-on-sight, which makes that PC a major problem anytime the party enters a villiage. However, 3rd edition brought a more relaxed worldview, where "deviant" alignments are far more common and humanoid monsters are all viable PC races. (Although I do believe the "good drow" has been done to death, and should be excluded on the ground of having once been novel but now being a tired cliche.) And another question: What is the purpose of half-elves existing? Can anyone tell me? To support certain character types from fiction. You know the ones: the hero who is human, but has some Elf in his ancestry. Or Aragorn's kid. (Not that one canonicly exists, but folks will want to play him/her.) If there is love between elves and humans, somebody is going to want to play a character whose mommy is an elf and whose daddy is a human.
Rogue Shadows 02-27-07, 10:20 AM	(Although I do believe the "good drow" has been done to death, and should be excluded on the ground of having once been novel but now being a tired cliche.) What if she's a drow who was born on the surface and raised by humans 'cause her mother died in childbirth? She's 27 (roughly 16-17 in human terms), Chaotic Good, a Rogue 5/Thief-Acrobat 2, and is geared towards burglary, not adventuring. She's creative, though, in combat. Grappling hook to the face of a winter wolf to distract it long enough that I can use a potion of spider climb to go up the tree, then drop down in a sneak attack ('cause now it's flanked) and skewer it through the head! I like Iliira, whom yes, I originally created because I was all "OMG! DROW ELVES ARE T3H 1337! H4X0RZ!!!!!11!!" But as I've developed her, she's grown into her own, unique character. She's not simply a Drizzt or Liriel clone.
Ogrebear 02-28-07, 09:54 AM	One fun way of breaking racial stereotyping for Orcs was have an entire forested mountain range guarded by a loose alliance of Orc Werebear fighter/druids.... LG and extremely concerned with protecting their hunting and fishing grounds.. The looks on my players faces when the Grizzly that had appeared during their attempt to catch dinner changed into an Orc was totally priceless.
Naderion 02-28-07, 10:16 AM	The Monster Manual says that Orcs are "often chaotic evil". If you take a look in the glossary, that means about 40% of all orcs are chaotic evil, 60% are not. Given that orcs are almost like born chaotic, because of how their brain works, I'd say they are 40% CE, 10%NE, 30%CN and 10% N, with the other 10% in the other 5 alignments. Even if the evil orcs are the ones most fighting for power, about 1 in 4 or in 3 orc-tribes is most likely to have a non-evil leadership. Even by the things in the books, orcs are by far not always evil. And another thing: Why should I care what a published book says when designing my own campaign-setting. It's no league-gaming and so the house-rules are at #1 and everything else behind it.
JaiaDrottsingr 02-28-07, 09:50 PM	Allow, drow, and you'll be swarmed with Drizzt wannabes, complete with their standard issue dual scimitars. That's why I bring new players into games, and not ones who have already been reading such things or have knowledge of PunPun. If they have knowledge of PunPun and like him, they quickly become killed, and if they pass the opening game test, they die constantly. Critical hits on an enemy... Right. Try playing in one of my games. I'm lucky, and when you have a lucky DM, your players suffer. Personally, I love good characters of evil races, but I prefer when it's evil races that hasn't been cuddled to death allready. Like Duergar? Ithillid? Things that no one can truly roleplay? This is why there are NPC's, so that the experienced storyteller can breathe life into characters that players are interested in. NPC's help create future characters. (Although I do believe the "good drow" has been done to death, and should be excluded on the ground of having once been novel but now being a tired cliche.) I suggest you learn about Jaia. He gambles, with his life he wins, but materially, he always loses. He tosses daggers, the original ones named "Life and Death" were stolen by a Tearling, a race I made up that lives on Selune's Tears. There are other creatures that live on Selune, but these are completely different. The quest he had undertook was to find a pool of luck. Right before they did, the half-elf was kidnapped. He and a half giant went to find her, and rescued her when Jaia still had his daggers. The next ones were a gift from a sailor, Lightning and Thunder, much more insignificant, but better than unenchanted. He quickly gained a psionic dagger, Keratis, named after what was once the town of the Bloodwood. It awoke when he called it's true name. That sent him on an adventure that led to despair, and betrayal, as well as a new friendship, which he holds fast, linking him to an entire kingdom that could come to his call if he needed so. The elf that betrayed him nearly lost her life afterwards. When she recovered she stumbled upon him accidentally as he was headed back for his hometown of Baldur's Gate. She attacked and was killed. He took a magical throwing dagger from her boot, enchanted to explode on impact and then return to the sheath, it also held the power of fire, stronger than the normal enchantment, which made the blade increasingly hot in close combat. He then saw the kidnapper of the half-giant, who he chased all the way to the desert of Anauroch, they did not go into the floating city, however, and instead went south to a place that Jaia had no idea what was, the Shar. Overcome by a wemic tribe, Jaia escaped only due to a great white horse, which chased away the lionmen. He did not see it again for some time. He continued to follow his quarry all the way to the Sea of Steam, and the Arnrock. He found a cave in the volcano, faced off with the guy, was told that the half-giant had overpowered him and escaped, leaving him to die. He went to the Arnrock for a rendezvous with someone that could make Jaia’s life miserable. He had also served as an emissary between Shadovarians and a select group of humans that were of unknown intentions. Jaia quickly left the volcano, and went back along the path he had taken to where he now was. He closely passed the Chondalwood and found some Ghostwise who ran away in fear from him. He was ambushed later on; soon he was threatened with death, and instead was rescued by a wild elf maiden on horseback, who scattered the superstitious Halflings. She took him back across the Western Heartlands, and he holds no special feelings for this one, as she was just a transporter, she even asked him for money to pay off the ride on her black horse. This is the part of the story which I still have not filled, as his next recorded adventure takes place far in the East, as a caravan guard to Zakhara. That is still on going. I am hoping to give him a cameo in March of Chaos, which my turn should be coming up soon in.
The Ubbergeek 02-28-07, 11:32 PM	Good drows are still cool... But like any 'concepts' who need good rpg skillsm it will be rare and need a good player. I am of the idea a good dm should allow oddballs or such clichés as long the player asking for his at least a decent one. Because playing the rebel is still cool.... Just taht teh wannabees are not.
paladin2019 03-01-07, 12:20 AM	Sorry, I just don't see the Do'Urdens not sacrificing their deranged scion. In a society of creatures who can detect alignment and make a habit of sacrificing good creatures to their dark goddess, why would their be any hesitation? Unless the entirety of his house was weak and couldn't bring themselves to act against their misguided child. Fools! Weaklings! The dark queen shall cast them out of grace and they shall be no more! The city shall be mine, and soon, the surface shall fall before me! Muahahahaha! Ummm, sorry, was that my "outside voice"?:schemes:
AMGriffin 03-01-07, 12:58 PM	What if she's a drow who was born on the surface and raised by humans 'cause her mother died in childbirth? She's 27 (roughly 16-17 in human terms), Chaotic Good, a Rogue 5/Thief-Acrobat 2, and is geared towards burglary, not adventuring. She's creative, though, in combat. Grappling hook to the face of a winter wolf to distract it long enough that I can use a potion of spider climb to go up the tree, then drop down in a sneak attack ('cause now it's flanked) and skewer it through the head! I like Iliira, whom yes, I originally created because I was all "OMG! DROW ELVES ARE T3H 1337! H4X0RZ!!!!!11!!" But as I've developed her, she's grown into her own, unique character. She's not simply a Drizzt or Liriel clone. I sorta agree with this. In the roughly 2 or 3 years I've been RPing, I've only seen 1 Drizzt clone...and only one good aligned drow for that matter (with the exception of a half-drow rogue). Seen quite a few CN drow angstburgers though. ...Though in some campaigns a 27 year old elf is like a human 5 or 6 year old.
gelalshawr 03-01-07, 01:47 PM	Well, honestly, that's what I'd expect as well, but I went with the other way 'cause it's easier to calculate out. In either case, the question remains: is a stereotype that's true really a stereotype? A stereotype is a stereotype because it's been shown to be true quite often, maybe not 50% of the time, but if there weren't rpecedent for the stereotype, then there wouldn't BE a stereotype
Rogue Shadows 03-01-07, 03:43 PM	...Though in some campaigns a 27 year old elf is like a human 5 or 6 year old. I use the idea shown in most FR novels, as well as in Races of the Wild: elves are physically and mentally mature by age 25, but basically for the next century or so say to themselves "I'm too young to die in some dungeon somewhere!" Which I think is perfectly reasonable. A stereotype is a stereotype because it's been shown to be true quite often, maybe not 50% of the time, but if there weren't rpecedent for the stereotype, then there wouldn't BE a stereotype Traditionally, stereotypes are actually untrue generalizations, or assumptions held based on limited experience. The presumption that black people are less intelligent then white people, for example, was based on the fact that when Europeaners showed up in sub-Saharan Africa, much of it was signficantly lagging in technology as compared to Europe. Black people weren't any more nor less intelligent then white people...it was merely that Europe, bluntly, had considerably more arable land and water, thus was there more philosophes and the like able to laze around saying dumb things like "Cogeto Ergo Sum" rather then actually work for their food. Cogeto ergo sum. Pfeh. And how do you know that the Great Magician doesn't control your thoughts as well, Descartes?! Also, you're not Roman! [Speakin' to a dead guy. Ooh boy]
JaiaDrottsingr 03-01-07, 05:46 PM	Traditionally, stereotypes are actually untrue generalizations, or assumptions held based on limited experience. The presumption that black people are less intelligent then white people, for example, was based on the fact that when Europeaners showed up in sub-Saharan Africa, much of it was signficantly lagging in technology as compared to Europe. Black people weren't any more nor less intelligent then white people...it was merely that Europe, bluntly, had considerably more arable land and water, thus was there more philosophes and the like able to laze around saying dumb things like "Cogeto Ergo Sum" rather then actually work for their food. Cogeto ergo sum. Pfeh. And how do you know that the Great Magician doesn't control your thoughts as well, Descartes?! Also, you're not Roman! [Speakin' to a dead guy. Ooh boy] Quidquid latine dictum sit altum viditur. Whatever is said in Latin sounds profound The Europeans were idiots, "Oh, let's litter in the streets and dump crap on people standing in alleys! We don't use outhouses or toilets, but instead we use little pots that ventilate smell faster than a kilted Scotsman at a cabre tossin' thing! Let's enslave an indigineous culture that has invented its own calender, can grow crops in more arid soil than us, and are better with the ways of the land! Oh, Haha! They're revolting! I must-AAIGH!" You do not treat a black person unfairly. They are stronger than many others, dominated the first 20% of my graduating class without being nerds, and are just cool. It's still funny to enslave Shadovarians, sell them to people and watch how quickly they revolt. Now that's a mistaken buy.
ElberethSilverleaf 03-02-07, 01:06 AM	in fact, that's what the whole idea behind settings like Eberron is, pretty much.... Yeah but Eberron suc*s... Until reading an earlier post I didn't realize that 3e orcs are now CE. I say as DM change the "usually" CE orcs to usually NE... that way you could have an expansionistic, empire building nation of mostly LE orcs and perhaps occasionally N tribes who are basically peaceful "stay outta our territory" types. You could really shake things up that way and keep your players from assuming that every orc tribe is something to be slaughtered and pillaged.
JaiaDrottsingr 03-02-07, 07:00 PM	Yeah but Eberron suc*s... QFT Ebberon. Pulp action and idiotic players decisions. FR. Satisfying adventures, excellent lore, and stupid Core writers. Now which is better? Hmmmmm...
halloweengnome 03-03-07, 12:29 AM	Personally my gaming groups have had a lot of fun with racial stereotypes. Like my one friend who made a half-orc wizard (you heard me right) named T'hokk. He was actually really good and, like the rest of us, gained a good bit of power and some great accomplishments, but he never could get any respect and was constantly referred to as (sarcastically) "The Thinking Orc". And I had a gnome barbarian named Dak (again, you heard me right) that made our enemies burst out laughing in battle... Until he took their legs off with a greataxe. You'd be suprised how scary a roaring gnome frothing at the mouth and wielding a big axe can actually be. :) But the best was in our adventure where we came across a puzzle. A character figured out that we needed an arrow for some task, and having none, turned immedietly to our elf bard and asked for one. The elf, played by my friend Charlie, preceeded to go on an (literally) almost 10 minute rant about racial stereotypes ("Just because I'm an elf, I'm supposed to have a bow and arrows!? So all elves carry bows and arrows?! Is that what you think?! I have never been so insulted in my life! Etc, etc") which he immediately followed by handing the character one of his arrows with "And here's an arrow." To this day when a racial stereotype comes into play, a character almost always goes on a similar rant then immediately acts just like the stereotype with variations of "Here's an arrow" line, like "Here's your trap-trigger." for kobolds and "Here's your thieve's tools." for halflings. Personally I think that players should be allowed to play whatever they want within reason. I've only restricted my characters occaisonally based on the setting, like if a race just isn't feasible somewhere. Or if the player just won't be able to use a certain creature somewhere due to NPC reactions (playing a reformed mind flayer is fine, but in most places people are going to run in terror from you or attack you. Just imagine if this poor, saintly illithid wandered in front of a temple of Moradin. Not pretty). But I'm also the DM who let the group play a party of nothing but kobolds in a standard d&d setting. Everywhere they went they were watched by guards. A lot of people wouldn't talk to them. Several temples refused them. They even had to flee a city after a scuffle with some halflings resulted in the city guard coming after them with lethal force because of their race. I warned them ahead of time, and they actually appreciated me not going easy on them. Said it made it much more interesting and satisfying to play. I really want to do an adventure where the characters are from a kind of "monster academy". A place away from the towns and cities where unusual creatures are taken in and raised. That way the group can be the weirdest stuff they like (using monster progression levels to make everyone even in level to start) and still adventure on quests from the academy. Or even head out into the world on their own.
Kursk 03-03-07, 12:36 PM	Personally my gaming groups have had a lot of fun with racial stereotypes. Like my one friend who made a half-orc wizard (you heard me right) named T'hokk. He was actually really good and, like the rest of us, gained a good bit of power and some great accomplishments, ... This is a great style f play. Realistic within the worlds framework and fun.
Bhaal006 03-03-07, 08:22 PM	If you wanna change things up even more, make elves evil.
The Ubbergeek 03-03-07, 10:16 PM	If you wanna change things up even more, make elves evil. You know, you sounds like a fanboy much younger than you are with your dislike of elves. :rolleyes: I am not really an elf fanboy myself, but between an elf and a dwarf... :rolleyes: Seriously, it's as cliché, mon ami. How about giving elves a non-Tolkienesque twist simply, like the Death gate cycle's Tribu Elves? Kind of like Golden Age Spain imperialist 'seafaring, elves. And yet, not eveeeeeeeeeeeel, more complex than that.
Bhaal006 03-03-07, 11:57 PM	It's the way elves sre portrayed in nearly every fantasy novel ever written, elves are so great, they love nature, they're are in all ways better than humans, and because elves are portrayed this way characters play them this way(i was nearly kicked from one of my groups for killing a player because they acted this way) In short elves are better fighters, better wizards, better musicians, better artists, better builders, and better people than ant other of the common races.
The Ubbergeek 03-04-07, 11:02 AM	It's the way elves sre portrayed in nearly every fantasy novel ever written, elves are so great, they love nature, they're are in all ways better than humans, and because elves are portrayed this way characters play them this way(i was nearly kicked from one of my groups for killing a player because they acted this way) In short elves are better fighters, better wizards, better musicians, better artists, better builders, and better people than ant other of the common races. And yet, outside their defaults, the same is often said of the dwarves, who are as every bit as arrogant and condenscending. Hypocrite, no? They do not - they just think so. Only some fools are caught in Tolkienisms, which is also a problem for other races - how many want their halflings like cowardly useless hobbits? Or the SAME veery damn stereotypes of those knee bitters who have the SAME scottish accent? And attacking another character in character because simply he is an annoyance is bad rpg mojo, and break everyone's fun. Have at least an in character reason to do so.
spyone 03-04-07, 11:33 AM	I suggest you learn about Jaia. Actually, this kinda proves my point: Once, a Good Drow was unusual, even unique. Now everybody has one. Which makes them far less interesting.
JulesCARV 03-04-07, 11:46 AM	My approach to the whole "elven superiority" thing is as follows: humans learn more quickly than elves, but elves live about five times as long. A typical 40 year old human is a level 2 commoner. A typical 200 year old elf is a level 5 commoner, who also happens to be proficient with several martial weapons. Elves just have more time to learn stuff, even if humans learn it a bit more quickly. An elf commoner thus compares well to a typical human warrior, and is also far more skilled in her craft/profession of choice. This is strictly for NPCs, of course. PCs are usually all approximately the same level within a given party.
JaiaDrottsingr 03-04-07, 01:15 PM	Actually, this kinda proves my point: Once, a Good Drow was unusual, even unique. Now everybody has one. Which makes them far less interesting. ... He's the only good drow I've met in all my groups. And the Moon-Drow (Blue Elf) I made was NE... [JohnMaddenWhenTalkingAboutStatistics]Over 200 groups, 8 people per group, played as Jaia for about 120 groups, DM'd 30, and about 85 storyines total. Ayabbadavba! That's abuh mazing![/voice]
gelalshawr 03-04-07, 03:11 PM	(i was nearly kicked from one of my groups for killing a player because they acted this way) whoah... you know, if you go around killing players because they rp in a way you don't like, a lot of gaming groups might dry up for you. But, on a serious note, the Tolkienish elf stereotype is as bad as, if not worse than the good Drow stereotype but players who think in those stereotypes should not be penalized for it if it's fun for them, you can roleplay accordingly, up to and including gutting their pansy elf character for being overly arrogant, but don't get mad at the player, it's bad form. And to Elbereth, who says Eberron suc*s: if you don't like it, don't play it, but leave those of us that do like it alone.
Naderion 03-04-07, 03:32 PM	If you wanna change things up even more, make elves evil. In my setting elves are generally tending to good. Humans are about 20% good, 60% neutral and 20% evil and so elves are 35% good, 50% neutral and 15% evil. It's not that easy with such a large opposition for evil elves to get controll over a given community, but in 100.000 elves, there are still 15.000 evil ones, that's a lot. You can add this situation with still holding to the stereotypes. Their evil is not like in human thugs and robbers who just love to have their own small kind of power, but they are hatefull and thinking themself above others because of their supperior abilities. They can have almost all the elven qualities, like intelligence, wisdom, creativity, the love for beauty and the will to fight for the death for their people, but the only little difference is, that they are just incredible racistic and feel no need to give members of other races any credit. They can make really frightening opponents. It's very cool to see small groups of elven archers butchering dozens of orcs whon are just running for their live, because there is just no way to get to the elves, because they are gone as quickly as they appear. But it's not fun at all, when these same elves are raiding human villages. And they would. They don't care for humans more as they do for orcs and goblins and if they get the message, that they are not invited in another way, then slaying them is just the first choice. Make a dwarf greedy and they turn into really nasty evil opponents equally soon.
The Ubbergeek 03-04-07, 06:49 PM	Make a dwarf greedy and they turn into really nasty evil opponents equally soon. The duergar are the only dwarves that I like, because in a way, they show the less cool aspects of dwarves, their human flaws pushed at the extremes; they are not hypocrites.
Callista 03-04-07, 06:52 PM	I've got a CE orc character... I rather enjoy playing the stereotype, though in this case the orc is an outcast who's found work as a mercenary. It's a challenge to make it fit into a party; but I haven't killed anybody yet! (Well, anybody in the party.)
Naderion 03-05-07, 07:29 AM	Take the halo away from the "exalted" races, and you instantly get quite cool races, that can either be nice guys to hang out with and villians of the worst kind, without abandoning their culture and mindset.
Bhaal006 03-05-07, 11:25 AM	And yet, outside their defaults, the same is often said of the dwarves, who are as every bit as arrogant and condenscending. Hypocrite, no? They do not - they just think so. Only some fools are caught in Tolkienisms, which is also a problem for other races - how many want their halflings like cowardly useless hobbits? Or the SAME veery damn stereotypes of those knee bitters who have the SAME scottish accent? And attacking another character in character because simply he is an annoyance is bad rpg mojo, and break everyone's fun. Have at least an in character reason to do so. I did have an in character reason to gank the elf, she kept stealing my stuff and selling it because she thought all humans were evil(something in her background)and when i confronted the character about it she admited it then made some sort of fuss to the town gaurd and got me thrown in prison(stupid elf towns), so when i escaped i and found the group on the road later that evening, i snuck up when they made camp and disposed of her while she slept.
Ogrebear 03-06-07, 08:56 AM	I don't like Gnomes, Haflings and the other 'small races' - I get on with Dwarves just cos I can see a place for them in the world, but the other races leave me cold. I cant see past skipping, fat Hobbits, and Gnomes as toddlers with explosives. This is a form of racial sterotyping. Can anyone suggest a use for Haflings and Gnomes that lifts them past their stereotypes and adds some use and some sorta 'hook' to them?
Rogue Shadows 03-06-07, 10:48 AM	First, I love pulp action. Ergo, I like Eberron. Secondly, The Europeans were idiots Europeans were many things. "Selfish." "Ruthless." "Cruel." "Idiots?" No. You do not come to rule the entire planet by being an idiot. Point of fact, you do it by being selfish. Not necessarily ruthless or cruel, but selfishness is definately necessary.
Naderion 03-06-07, 05:08 PM	The Europeans were idiots. Sad, but true. And even more sad, we all know where the worst of them went to... :(
JaiaDrottsingr 03-06-07, 05:24 PM	First, I love pulp action. Ergo, I like Eberron. That's where it becomes controversial. The newer gamers love the taste of the destruction, etc. etc. I'm not against it, but I don't thoroughly like it. Secondly, Europeans were many things. "Selfish." "Ruthless." "Cruel." "Idiots?" No. You do not come to rule the entire planet by being an idiot. Point of fact, you do it by being selfish. Not necessarily ruthless or cruel, but selfishness is definately necessary. "Idiocy" is another controversial term and factor. The word "Idiot" can be taken as stupid, ignorant, *all*-knowing, and even "selfish." The word "Idiot" also resembles the current usage of the word "Gay," which can mean happy, homosexual, stupid, selfish, annoying, etc. etc. Definitions change everything. The Europeans were idiots because of their choices, intelligence is not a factor in that, save for the fact that intelligence influenced the choices. They made choices that, in retrospect, seem obviously and disgustingly amoral, stupid, and more than slightly facist. Britain and Spain still strive for their days as Empires, but have no desire to be ruled by a Monarch. Germany wishes to run farther away from that path. France knows and has realized that no good can come of rebellion, and Empires fail to stop such events from occurring. They all fear Empires. They respect it and run from it. They shudder as they remember what has been. They are frightened at the prospects of such an entity. Definitions change everything. Which brings us back to Drow. "Everyone has a drow character." Everyone: Every single person that plays DND or a certain setting, Everyone I know, Everybody that I don't know, some people. Definitions change everything. "Once a good Drow was unusual, even unique." Good Drow are unique, so long as they are unique. The only thing preventing this is the general state of Chaos that has fallen over the new generation. As a member of the new*er* generation, I can safely say that many people from ages 20 to 35 are strictly chaotic as well. What should have been said was "Lawful Good Drow are still unique, yet we've been buried by a load of Chaos." Pretense changes everything. I didn't start reading RAS' books until two years after I created Jaia. His life and the little influence that RAS has had upon him has made him unique. Knowledge changes everything. Therefore, there are still CG drow that can or may be unique.
JaiaDrottsingr 03-06-07, 05:35 PM	Sad, but true. And even more sad, we all know where the worst of them went to... :( Robin: Holy Crapcakes, Batman! I was just MegaSarnath'd! Someone posted before me! Batman: Relax, Robin. We need to focus on the ellipse. Hell? Guillotine? America? The Nazi Party? Communist Russia? Robin: Utah? Batman: *Strikes a pensieve pose, closes eyes and pinches bridge of nose.* *Dodges shuriken without opening eyes.* Y'know, I'm thinking of all my encounters with Mormons, but I never seem to see where they hide those horns. *Soliloquy* Weird Asian Nerd From "American Mormon": Well, I know their race has something to do with John Smith and Lizard People. Are they allowed to use electronics? *Television Static* An All Mormon Band Named "The Aquabats": And if we die/Before the battle's through/Tell your Mom/Tell your Dad/We were Super Rad. *End out of body experience and Soliloquy*
sooperspook 03-06-07, 11:13 PM	Ebberon. Pulp action and heroic players who are actually special individuals not some Great Mage's gofers. FR. Cliiched adventures, ridiculous lore involving everyone and their dog being epic level, and stupid Core writers. Now which is better? Hmmmmm... Fixed it for you.
JaiaDrottsingr 03-07-07, 07:34 AM	Fixed it for you. I'm not taking advice from someone who misspelled "gopher." That's it! Jaia, leave! Wait...
Rogue Shadows 03-07-07, 10:04 AM	I'm not against it, but I don't thoroughly like it. That's 'cause you're taking it too seriously and not looking at it right. Eberron is pulp action, yes. More to the point, it is High fantasy. Generally, that term means any fantasy not set on Earth. When I use it, I mean something that strongly resembles Final Fantasy IX. See this for a great example of what FFIX is like. You'll see Eberron is blatantly inspired by it. Elevation (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHPOmmOvcEU). (as a head's up, this isn't fanboism for FFIX. I've never even played FFIX) I view Eberron as basically being something like the Star Wars of D&D. Character development becomes key, because everything else is commonplace enough as to be ordinary and taken for granted. You don't bother trying to come up with the Spell of Ultimate Power, because someone else probably already has. So instead you start trying to think up why your character whats the SUP. And that leads to backstory, which leads to old friends and relatives, contacts, vendettas... --------------------- Britain and Spain still strive for their days as Empires, but have no desire to be ruled by a Monarch. Germany wishes to run farther away from that path. France knows and has realized that no good can come of rebellion, and Empires fail to stop such events from occurring. I would hardly call Britain as having ever been an empire in the sense you're thinking of it. Queen Victoria, Empress of India and Monarch of the British Empire, had slightly more power then a cupcake. The British have had a Magna Carta fear of actual monarchy since...well, the Magna Carta. Also, Britain is an island nation, and an island nation almost by definition needs at least a little Empire, unless they plan on importing everything from other countries and as such leaving their economy incredibly fragile. So striving for Empire is really just common sense. Besides, the British are more-or-less satisfied with what they have now. The Commonwealth of Nations allows them to maintain a nice safety net of economic support without being accused of Empire because...well, it's not. Most of the states in the Commonwealth are independent. Over half don't even have 'er Maj as the head of state. The Spanish...eh. The Spanish haven't been a power worth considering since the mid-1800s. The Germans never really had much of a centralized Empire until after Napoleon and the founding of the Second Reich. They were always a European power, but never a world power. The French...ah, ze French. Actually I like the French, unlike most Americans today. France is actually Foreign Policy King of ze World, as near as I can tell. Former colonies of France have a much lower chance of civil war then do former colonies of, say, Britain or Spain. They all fear Empires. They respect it and run from it. They shudder as they remember what has been. They are frightened at the prospects of such an entity. Definitions change everything. Well, how are you defining Empire? By the definition I use, which is when a state excersizes considerable economic and political control over other states (without that control necessarily being DIRECT), there are still two or three European Empires (Britain, France, and Russia), two American (US and Brazil), four Asian (Russia again, China, Japan, and India), one Oceania (Asutralia), and perhaps two Middle Eastern (Iran and Saudi Arabia). "Once a good Drow was unusual, even unique." Good Drow are unique, so long as they are unique. The only thing preventing this is the general state of Chaos that has fallen over the new generation. As a member of the new*er* generation, I can safely say that many people from ages 20 to 35 are strictly chaotic as well. What should have been said was "Lawful Good Drow are still unique, yet we've been buried by a load of Chaos." Pretense changes everything. Perhaps. But what means Alignment? Most D&D players I've met seem to be slaves to alignment. If you play a Lawful Good drow, you must be a virtual Paladin, 'cause that's Lawful Good. Me, I see Alignment as merely being the overal tendency. Individual actions or aspects of character may be good through evil, lawful through chaotic, while the overal effect is one or the other. Take the stereotypical, "Holier then Thou" Paladin. "Holier then Thou" is placing oneself on a pedestel, the idea that you are just inherently better then others. This is evil. Yet, the overal effect is that the Paladin works for the betterment of his "lessers" and the upholding of law. So even though the Paladin who is Holier then Thou has an evil streak, his overal Alignment works out to be Lawful Good. On the subject of a lawful good drow...while playing agaisnt type, there is such a thing as going overboard. I would never, for example, play a Chaotic Good Mind Flayer. Would this be a unique character? Incredibly. But the fact is that it would be so unique as to be no fun to play. I would have to act totally, completely, 100% opposed (not just different, but opposed) to everything that is Illithid. Playing such a character, you are effectively playing something that isn't an Illithid at all, except in abilities.
paladin2019 03-07-07, 11:17 AM	I'm not taking advice from someone who misspelled "gopher." That's it! Jaia, leave! Wait... Gofer wasn't misspelled. He was not referring to a small, burrowing mammal. The etymology of the term is "go for," as in someone who goes to get something for someone else. This has evolved in common usage and spelling to go-fer and finally gofer. It is considered a demeaning term and I'm sure was used with that intent by the editing poster. And stop center aligning your posts. It makes them extremely difficult to read and difficult formatting is rude.
Bhaal006 03-07-07, 01:09 PM	yeah the center formatin is kind of really annoying, I thought i was reading poetry until i realized it sucked.
JaiaDrottsingr 03-07-07, 04:50 PM	And stop center aligning your posts. It makes them extremely difficult to read and difficult formatting is rude. Oh no! I made you turn your head at a 2 degree angle! Oh, the strain, the strain!
Bhaal006 03-07-07, 07:55 PM	oh no your a :censored: :censored: jerk, whats with the center alignment why you would have it that way doesn't make any sense, and why you would't change it doesn't make any sense unless you nwere specifically doing it to annoy people.
Naderion 03-07-07, 08:03 PM	It's written extra small to remind is it does not have to be read. ;)
JaiaDrottsingr 03-07-07, 10:51 PM	It's written extra small to remind is it does not have to be read. ;) Would you like me to post extra small once again? I guess I'll just have to obey the both of y'all.
JaiaDrottsingr 03-07-07, 10:58 PM	whats with the center alignment why you would have it that way doesn't make any sense Because when I post a long stream of words I can mess up the page and my posts. Because I like read down the center anyways. , and why you would't change it doesn't make any sense unless you nwere specifically doing it to annoy people. Nyuh-Uhh!
jameswilliamogle 03-07-07, 11:05 PM	didn't read the first few pages, but I hate racial stereotypes as well: real world has racism; I don't like it in my dnd games. I did the following for the game I run: your highest level class is your favored class, ala human. Racial sub levels are what makes a particular race better than any other for that role, but it doesn't make the race worse than any other if he didn't take it.
spyone 03-08-07, 01:20 AM	Can anyone suggest a use for Haflings and Gnomes that lifts them past their stereotypes and adds some use and some sorta 'hook' to them? Well, I got this from my old DM: Halflings are as good in the woods as elves. Better, in some respects. In fact, if you look at their racial abilities (that would be in 1st edition), it looks like they were tailor-made to be Elf-killers. The only thing you'd like to face in the woods less than an Elf is a Halfling. HOWEVER, Halflings lack ambition. Sure, the Halflings could wipe out the Elves, but that sounds like a lot of work. as long as the Halfling is well fed, and the Elves are not attacking or anything, "live and let live" is the Halfling motto. Halflings become adventurers in the hopes of becoming wealthy enough to not have to work hard to be warm and well fed for the rest of their lives. Gnomes, ... well, ever since they started letting humans be multi-classed, you lost a lot of the motivation for playing a Gnome. Back in 1st Edition, only humans and Gnomes could be an Illusionist. And if you have the DEX to be an Illusionist, you have the DEX to be a Thief. So the only Gnomes I ever knew of as PCs were all Illusionist/Thiefs. In the 3.0 Player's Handbook, the illustrations of Halfling and Gnome appear to be backwards. I mean, what they have shown as a "halfling" is something that could only be mistaken for a human child in a fairly dark alley, or if it was wearing a lot of loose clothing. And their Gnomes are taller than their Halflings.
Zephyrus/Sonet 03-08-07, 01:23 AM	If Europeans were "idiots" for creating world-wide empires, then so were every other culture of people in the world. The Europeans were just good at it.
spyone 03-08-07, 01:26 AM	Because when I post a long stream of words I can mess up the page and my posts. Because I like read down the center anyways. Nyuh-Uhh! That color does not contrast well with the background color of the posts, at least on the board settings I'm using. (Rebelstorm, I think it is called.) Not quite invisable, but must be highlighted to be read. I'm just saying, .... :)
sooperspook 03-08-07, 03:50 AM	That color does not contrast well with the background color of the posts, at least on the board settings I'm using. (Rebelstorm, I think it is called.) Not quite invisable, but must be highlighted to be read. I'm just saying, .... :) yeah, same. I got a headache trying to read it normally. So I didn't read the rest of it. :D
JaiaDrottsingr 03-08-07, 07:15 AM	That color does not contrast well with the background color of the posts, at least on the board settings I'm using. (Rebelstorm, I think it is called.) Not quite invisable, but must be highlighted to be read. I'm just saying, .... :) These are the settings I used to use. It drove people even more crazy. I can always read it, though. Don't know what they were complaining about.
Rogue Shadows 03-08-07, 09:12 AM	Here we go on alignment again...Jaia, you are putting your own wants and desires ahead of other's. More to the point, you are doing so even though it makes your posts hard to read for the rest of us. An "Evil" act.
Leo 03-08-07, 01:41 PM	As long as there are diferences and free will, there will be stetreotypes. Period. And what's the alternative? Every race behaves diferently, they have diferent ways lof life, believe in diferent things, how can one stop stereotypes from emerging? Would you prefer if there was no background at all for any race?
JaiaDrottsingr 03-08-07, 04:12 PM	Would you prefer if there was no background at all for any race? Sacrificing Realmslore??!!!!!!!!!! [BlatantCopyOfMarkHammil'sBadActing] NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO !!!!![/voice]
JaiaDrottsingr 03-08-07, 04:14 PM	Here we go on alignment again...Jaia, you are putting your own wants and desires ahead of other's. More to the point, you are doing so even though it makes your posts hard to read for the rest of us. An "Evil" act. I must be channelling Khaos. Cool. I'm the bare entity and essence of insanity. But I'm a girl. That part sucks.