Post/Author/DateTime	Post
thecasualoblivion 01-18-08, 05:39 PM	I'm working on something, and maybe you guys can help me out. I'm asking for people to rate the core races from the PHB on a scale of 1-10. Use any standard you want, judge them on game mechanics, flavor or fluff, whether or not you ever/never play them, anything. If you want to make it interesting, give some reasons. Here's mine: Human-10 Feats are precious, and Humans get another one. Not having a penalty to any ability score is also rather nice. A quality choice for any class or build. Dwarf-6 I want to like the Dwarf, but its a little too limiting. He's a good Fighter type, but the Cha penalty hurts a Dwarf Cleric and established lore/fluff hurts other archetypes. Decent mechanics, but not the whole package. Elf-7 The Con penalty is brutal, but these still make a nice Rogue or Ranger type, or even Clerics. They get some decent abilities and I've always liked playing Elves. Its sad that they make crappy Wizards. Halfling-4 Some of the game stats are actually pretty good, but I've never cared for the fluff on these. Gnome-2 +2 Con and small size is nice for powergaming, but I've never seen a point to these guys. Half-Orc-7 A high price for +2 Str, but I still kind of like these guys. Half-Elf-1 Back in 2E half of my characters were Half-Elves. I'd love to play one now, if it wasn't dumb to do so. They get absolutely nothing worthwhile from their racial set of abilities.
Mr_Teapot 01-19-08, 11:17 AM	Humans are a 9, IMHO. Always, always a good choice for any character, mechanically or roleplayingwise. Dwarves are decent. Say a 7. Good racial features but I never end up actually playing one, because I need another feat or don't want a Cha Penalty. Elves I'm not big on flavorwise or mechanically. 3. Halflings are excellent at what they do (rogues and spellcasters) and fun to play. 8. Gnomes are redundant in every area of characterization, but still not a bad choice. 5 Half orcs: not worth it. 2 Half elves: 1. Other mentions: Warforged: 6 Changeling: 7 Illumian: 6.5 Nezumi: 8.5 Whisper Gnome: penalty for cheese drops it to a 2. Goblins: 8 kobolds: 5 full blood Orc: 6.5 Raptoran: lame. 1 Goliath: 7
squidyak 01-19-08, 03:19 PM	Human (10): Great versatility. I can easily make any type of character I envision. Dwarf (7): If you want to swing an axe and soak up damage, obviously a great choice. Lose a little bit as clerics due to cha penalty, but not much. Lose points for all of a sudden being able to wield magic. Elf (5): Never been a fan of elves, and they've never been represented well. Kind of hard to get their stats right, as they really should have bonuses to dex, wis, and charisma along with a penalty to only str. Favored class should be sorcerer, as they are a magically gifted race. Gnome (3): I've always liked gnomes, but they got the shaft. A bunch of useless abilities and favored class bard? Come on guys. Move them back to being Illusionists. Halfling (4): I don't like the world-class athlete halflings. I like my halflings tubby, homely, and with hairy feet. Half-Orc (6): Iffy on them being in the core rules. They were left out of 2E for a reason. Well balanced though, and they at least got a favored class that makes sense. Half-Elf (7): Mechanically weak, but not significantly so. I like them that way. No more parties full of half-elves, you only see them now for role-playing reasons. Honorable mention Mul (10): I love these guys. Make them core!
key 01-19-08, 11:17 PM	elf - 10 - long-lived gnome - 1 - short-lived, big head dwarf - 1 - short-lived, fat halfling - 1 - short-lived half-elf - 1 - short-lived human - 1 - short-lived half-orc - 1 - short-lived, ugly
Tommyboy 01-20-08, 12:53 AM	Why are Raptorians lame Mr. Teapot? How about Kilorens?
SquibThePirate 01-20-08, 01:37 AM	I will only reply on the Core races I have actually used. Human- 10 (for every reason already stated) Dwarf-7 (actually my favorite race, but only a few classes make sense with them flavor wise.) Gnome-7 (Gnome Barbarian with a greatclub....Nothing funnier than an angry midget with a stick.)
Mr_Teapot 01-20-08, 10:22 AM	Why are Raptorians lame Mr. Teapot? Mainly it's just a gut reaction, but Raptorans show a distinct lack of creativity in design compared to Illumians or Goliaths. Slap some wings on an elf and you have most of a Raptoran, right there. And that doesn't impress me. (I thought Races of the Wild was the weakest of the Races books, too.) How about Kilorens? Killorens seem like they could be cool, I don't know. I'm unable to rate them at this time. It really wasn't "Every other race that I've read" but just some other significant races. Races from the Expanded Psionics Handbook probably also deserve ratings, as do Catfolk and other things.
AZNsupermarket 01-22-08, 11:41 AM	Humans 10 Dwarves 9 Elves 8 Halflings 7 Gnomes 6 Half-Orcs 3 Half-Elves 1
Mr_Seth 01-22-08, 11:59 AM	Humans - 9. Good overall, almost killer, but lack of flavor dulls `em for me, if just a bit. Dwarves - 9. Brilliant bonuses, great flavor, generally awesome. Gnomes - 10. KINGS AMONG THE MORTALS. >:0 It still cheezes me off a bit that they won't be core in 4e... I'm going to be house-ruling my own once I've seen the rest of the core 4e races. Elves - 7. The immunity to sleep is nice, as are the automatic proficiencies. Halflings - 7. Built to be monks, I swear. Half-Orcs - 4. Too many penalties, but still pretty playable if you've got a good class setup. Half-Elves - 2. Horrendously bad.
Fimbul 01-22-08, 01:05 PM	Dwarves: 10. They gotta awesome beards, nice smithery, great ale and know how to party! Half-Orcs: 8,5. Big feral folks with green skin, much bodyhair and nice muscles. What do you want more? :D Elves: 5.5 Interesting race alright, but they are overused to death and remind me more of cockroaches than anything else. Could be much more attractive if there weren't 100+ subraces of them and Drizzt. :eek: Gnomes: 5. Again, nice beards! Background's not too interesting, though. Halflings: 4. Nice foots and all but I hate these gypsies stereotypes. Half-Elves: 1. Nothing more than pretty humans with pointy ears. Humans: 0. The most useless race in any and all RPGs - why play a human if you're already one?!
The_Shaman 01-22-08, 01:41 PM	Just mechanically: Humans: 8. They have two racial features that come in handy for any build - you can't have too many feats or skill points - and can multiclass freely. It's a solid, reliable race. Dwarves: 8.5, 8.5-9 for subraces. A bonus to one of the best abilities, and a penalty for an often neglected one. The penalty to movement speed is bad, but you are no slower in full plate, and get a smorgasboard of good stuff. From a +2 to saves vs ALL spells (and probably psionics, under transparency), to being harder to trip, to darkvision... Dwarves are no less than one of the best races throughout the books. Subraces bring more variability - Gold dwarves make okay clerics or paladins, grey dwarves can make nice psionic characters, and the others are tolerable too. Gnomes: 6.5 . Small size can be useful if you play it safe, and tends to be net benefit for spellcasters - especially if it's accompanied by a bonus to the ever-useful constitution. The bonus to the DC of any illusion is great, and gnome illusionists are among the best you can find - or, more likely, not find. Shadowcraft Mage ftw. However, don't expect them to be the best meleers. I am not discussing the cheese gnomes. Halflings: 6.5 for standard, 8 for strongheart. Like gnomes, halflings are not exactly the best in the primary fighter role, but can be very good at what they do. If you want a rogue, only the Cheese (aka whisper) gnomes can rival the Hin, and they're not too bad in other roles, either - the Halfling Outrider PrC can net you an ubermount, and the strongheart halflings' bonus feat makes them comparable to humans. Elves: 5 for base, 5-7 for subraces. Some okay abilities, but nothing that surprising - and an obnoxious -2 to constitution. Seriously, people, constitution penalties are bad for every class. Favored class or no, the wizard class works better on a dwarf than an elf. As for the weapon proficiencies... Those who tend to use bows or longswords are already proficient in them due to class levels, so it's only a net gain for elven clerics or druids. Ironically, almost all elven subraces are pretty decent compared to the stock one: wild elves have no penalty to constitution, wood ones have a net +2 str -2 intelligence, and suns and greys have a bonus to intelligence that makes them decent wizards, psions, or archivists. Still, nothing that insane. Half-orcs: 4 . Penalty to two stats - one of them fairly useful - is a lot. However, they don't have any other noteworthy bonuses that could make up for it - except for darkvision. For crying out loud, even goblins have the benefit of being a small race with 30 ft movement speed. Even for most fighters, you may be better off playing a human. Their dragonblooded variant is good, unless you're expecting a lot of fireballs. Half-elves: 3.5 for base, 4 for half-drow . Completely unremarkable except for any RP implications. Instead of a bonus feat or decent abilities, you get a couple of minor skill bonuses. Wee... Half-drow at least get darkvision and a decent dragon-descended variant. Deepwyrm half drow are actually quite tolerable. A few other races from around the book: Azurin: 8.5; probably preferable to humans - as much as I like skills, 1 essentia point can be more useful than 1 skill points/level in the correct build. Skarn: 8. Beats me why you should choose a half-orc over a skarn outside of roleplaying reasons. +2 str, -2 dex, a natural weapon and more stuff? Heck yeah. BTW, skarn monks can be particularly... interesting. Githzerai: 7.5; 9.5 if LA buyoff is allowed. "Know" that I love this race. If LA buyoff is allowed they make insanely cool and fairly powerful monks, and are the only race with which I would touch the CAdv ninja. They are also great swordsages, with or without the unarmed variant. The intelligence penalty is bad for a few classes, though Goliath/Half-giant: 7.5, 8.5 if LA buyoff is involved. The two races aren't very different, really - goliaths have 2 more strength, while half-giants have natural psionics and some other stuff. Both can be very useful for barbarians or other melee characters, but aren't especially good at anything else. Neraph: 9.5 . Their only problem is that they're likely extraplanar. However, a race with natural armor bonus, proficiencies with some nasty weapons, 2 virtual feats, and still more is powerful on any plane. Don't expect to win any beauty pageants, though.
tenguroEd 01-22-08, 02:31 PM	I give humans a 8/, nice to have that extra feat, but in my group the only other race we have being played is a halfling the rest are just humans. Dwarves, 9, Like some of the racial abilities, like weapon familiarity, and bonus against some monsters, just never played one. Elves, 2, They are to much of tree hugging hippies(sorry if i offend anybody) for me to play, although my first character was a elf druid...I'm just gonna leave it at, I didn't create it one of my fellow party memebers did. Halflings, 5, never played one, and like i said under humans scoring, they don't enough love in my group, am interested in playing one, they have fluff just not enough. gnomes, 2, They are completley useless, IMO. Though they have some nice stuff. Half-orcs, 9, like the +2 to STR, among other things, currentley playing one and woo am I having fun. Plus you can make an interesting backstories to. Half elves, 2, They get butchered, even though I never played any edition but 3.5, from what I hear 3.5 HE's would get killed by the earlier editions of HE's.
FrostWolf 01-23-08, 06:18 AM	elf - 10 - long-lived gnome - 1 - short-lived, big head dwarf - 1 - short-lived, fat halfling - 1 - short-lived half-elf - 1 - short-lived human - 1 - short-lived half-orc - 1 - short-lived, ugly Allow me to fix that for you hun. Warforged-10-Just keeps going and going and going... Killoren- 10- Never grow old, never die, and free access to the "Fey Crafter" template for armors. elf - 1 - short-lived, femboys gnome - 1 - short-lived, big head dwarf - 1 - short-lived, fat halfling - 1 - short-lived half-elf - 1 - short-lived human - 1 - short-lived half-orc - 1 - short-lived, ugly There, all better.
FrostWolf 01-23-08, 06:57 AM	And now for my opinios. Core: Humans-10. You can never have too many feats or skill points. And the multiclass thing is sweet also. Dwarves- 8. Lets face it, Charisma is a dump stat for almost everything out there. While that extra Health point can mean the diffrence between life and death. Moving in heavy gear is great for anyone from an Articifer to a Cleric to a fighter. Gnome-5. Good little mages. Mechanics wise they have more of a connection to nature than the elves, but for some reason always show up as tinkers. This is lame and needs to be fixed. Halfling-7. They have some good bonuses and function well in most any role. Being nomadic is always a plus for flavor. Elves-3. A con hit is a bad thing. Always being portrayed as the Kings of the forest without any mechanical connection is BS. Free prof. with swords and bows is okay, but they loose points due to archer cloning. Half elf-0. Only reason to play half elf is... Ya know, their isn't one. Next. Half Orc-1. When core was all that was, they filled a nitch, but now, they are obsolete. If you roll Great stats, then this is a good option to help bring you down, but thats about it. FROM SPLAT BOOKS. Whisper Gnome-10! Broken, broken, broken, broken, BROKEN! The king of cheese! This little gem can make even +2 LAs quake with fear. If you ever get the chance to use one, do it! at least once. Killoren-6. Not bad. The special ability is fun, and being able to RP a character that is thousands of years old is amusing. Being fey is nice too. Honestly, I think these should replace the Elves in core. Warforged-5. Not bad, but kind of hard to just pick up and go with. fighter as a favored class is good, as alot of people will splash 4 levels of it. Living for ever can be good, but they do loose too many stats IMHO. Never needing to sleep and Raging without some of the drawbacks is a good thing. Catfolk-9. All things good can come from them. Faster, more nimble, cuter, and able to see in low light. Seeing as most games don't get to the top tier of levels, I'd gladly trade the +1 LA for a Catfolk Sorc, Cleric, Duskblade or scout. Heck, the only thing I wouldn't play one as is a wizard. Maybe druid, and depending on if I was going to Gish, then they would be considered. Mephlings-7. Small sized. NO Str loss (one type even gets a Str boost), 30 feet. Bonus breath weapons, movement types, and a few other nice bonuses. If LA can be bought off, then by all means, go for it with a caster, but they seem to be made well for support roles. The perks are really nice and the flavor is good too. a Fun choice. Shifters-3. Good if you want to play a Shifter, bad if you want to play a class. You have to invest your feats into the shifter line, and none of them (that I've seen) support a caster character well. Even the flavor on them is rancid. In a world where lycanthropes are hunted to near extinction, these half breeds are allowed to live? Some one call the Church of the Silver Flame please. And when a lycanthrope breeds, you get a NATURAL LYCANTHROPE. Not one of these abominations, so I don't see how they even exist. If you wanna be a were critter, then just use the savage progression. The following are some races I'd like to see the views on. Nezumi Changlings Thri-Keen Templates Yuan-ti Gith Dromites
Argaud 01-23-08, 07:03 AM	The PHB races: Humans - 7 Humans extra skill and feat are unvaluable for most classes, much better than most racial abilities. Dwarves - 8 The dwarves have class abilities that are (arguably) better than an extra feat and skill point/level. A bonus to Con, which absolutely all classes need, and a hit to Cha, which only a few classes need. Dwarves are better than humans for almost all classes. Some variants of dwarf are even stronger in underground settings, where the light sensitivity does not matter. Halflings - 6 Halflings are optimized for roguish activities and probably are the best at them. They only suck as classical meleers, which is no big deal with so many other options. Gnomes - 6 Like Halflings, gnomes are a solid choice for anything but a frontliner, and I take extra Con over extra Dex any day. The favored class is a bit dumb, but... they still make awesome illusionists. The whisper gnome variant puts the Halfling to shame as a rogue, and gets an 8. Elf - 4 The basic elf is not very good. The -2 to Con is a serious drawback, since everyone needs more Con. The favored class makes no sense. The rest of the abilities are so-so and do no make up those two drawbacks. However, there are so many elf variants that you can find one that is good for anything you want. Grey elves (DMG) make great wizards and deserve a 6 just for that. Wood elves (MM) are decent warriors and great archers thanks to the Str bonus and have a favored class (Ranger) that makes much more sense and also deserve a 6. Half-orcs - 3 They only get a couple racial abilities, extra Str and darkvision. Which aren’t too hot when compared with the human bonuses, and suck when the drawback of -2 to Int and Cha are added. They are decent meleers, but weak when compared with a real orc. Half-elves - 2 Half elves have even less racial abilities than elves, and although they do not take a hit to Con, they are not good to specialize in anything. Compared with humans, they suck at everything. Other races worth mentioning: Orcs - 5 Orcs get a powerful +4 to Str and just that makes them good as pure warriors. They leave the half-orc in the dust. Kobolds - 1 Mentioned here because they suck so badly they are probably the worst core race. Races of the Dragon gives them interesting class substitution level and feats that help them out of the pit of crappiness and actually makes potent sorcerers out of them, but being good at just one class does not make a race good. They still deserve just a 3 even with RoD. Goblins - 3 The halflings poor cousins, the goblin is a good roguish character, but worse than the halfling, and sucks at everything else when compared with other races. Warforged - 9 Stepping out of core there are many more possible races, but one stands over all others. As constructs warforged have a set of resistances, racial abilities and immunities that are unmatched by any other race. They take a hit to Cha and Wis, which make them bad as many classes, but they have a Con bonus which is always good for all the rest, and the feats open to them make the most jaded player wow.
r_younce 01-23-08, 07:43 AM	Cool idea! Is this for a project or something? I'd love to hear about it when it's complete. At any rate, here's how I'd rate 'em: Human - 10 as well. No favored classes, extra feat, extra skill points. Elf - 10. Only because, in my mind, the Elf is just the archetypal D&D figure. I've been playing Elves since '82, so this is more an emotional attachment than anything else. I'm also intrigued by the Eladrin/Elf situation in 4E. Dwarf - 7. Not my cup of tea. Having said that, the toughest fighters I've played have always been dwarfs for some reason. Half-Orc - 4. They were all right. Good fighters, I suppose. I prefer the Dragonborne, though, for flavor reasons. Halfling - 3. Frodo is so yesterday. Half-Elf - 3. Never been certain what the point of this guy is. Humans with low light vision instead of a feat and skill points? Gnome - 1 I think "Tiefling and Gnome" sums up my thoughts here. Good riddance. Get off my lawn and all that. In 20 years of weekly DMing, I've only ever had one gnome played at my table. For one session.
key 01-23-08, 09:27 AM	Warforged-10-Just keeps going and going and going... Not a core race from the PHB. I'm asking for people to rate the core races from the PHB on a scale of 1-10. Killoren- 10- Never grow old, never die, and free access to the "Fey Crafter" template for armors. Not a core race from the PHB. I'm asking for people to rate the core races from the PHB on a scale of 1-10. elf - 1 - short-lived, femboys Longest-lived of core races from the PHB, femboys or not.
Dog_O_War 01-23-08, 12:30 PM	Half-elf - 9: my favorite race, though they lose a point due to mechanically sucking. Since people seem to rarely incur multiclass penalties anymore, that ability is pointless. Flavor-wise though, they stand to be the strongest. An outcast of two mighty societies. This can lead to a great many options for goal and desire. It can also show the strongest unity of two nations that did not see eye to eye in the past. Dwarf - 8: Great flavor, great mechanics. Unfortunately they are best kept as steroetypes because this offers the greatest entertainment and RP play off for the group instead of the player (playing the dwarf). Also has the best mechanics. Elf - 7: When I think of fantasy, I think of dwarves and elves. The two go hand-in hand. They are certainly more versitile RP wise compared to a non-stereotyped dwarf. But the mechanics are quite lacking. Weapon proficiencies, even though any elf looking to use those weapons will already have a class that offers them, and those that don't (sorcerer, wizard) are kinda foolish to do so after level 3 (when the attack bonus becomes too distant from the CR of the average monster), until level 15-16 again when they can get Tenser's transformation. Con penalty for me is a non-issue, and they make the best trap rogues. Human - 6: Good, solid, and versitile. No real weaknesses. Completely stagnant though in terms of cultural flavor and character choice (who wants to play a race we see millions of every day?!). I've played many of them though, and I'm sad to say it is most often due to the mechanical draw of the feat. Half-Orc - 6: Unique in it's many opportunities of RP. Unfortunately, it is akin to being black in the 40's. Everyone is usually completely racist to your ilk. Want to be mayor? Good luck convincing the town that is raided often by orcs that you are the man for the job. Still, good bonuses (for fighter-types) and the ability to see in complete darkness. Halfling - 6: Good flavor, solid mechanics. Tough to RP, especially if you're hooked on Dragonlance or LotR as you will subconciously peg them as either kender or Bilbo. Gnomes - 3: What were they thinking?! They could've done soo much more with this poor race. Instead they stamped them as a bilbo/dwarf crossbreed, with awfully ignored and hard to adjudicate abilities. The only redeeming factor for them (IMO) is making them akin to the gnomes of Dragonlance. Coolest. Gnomes. Ever. Some people include other races from the MM (which is core) so here are my views on them. I'll stick to actual races, but no more than LA +1 Aasimars - 7: Completely overlooked. They are excellent in that they offer unique bonuses, and can make some awesome bad guys. Better than tiefling because tiefling is common. Tiefling - 6: cool and all, but completely over-done. Such a common choice for many players wanting something exotic. Sure, everyone loves the bad-boy/girl, but all the time?! Soo often they are used as a race looking for redemption (just so players can be good while being bad). Too stereotypical fer me (despite having made one in the past). LA +1 can hurt mecahnically, but you'd hardly notice it after 7th level. So your wizard is more like a sorcerer in spell progression. No big deal actually. Those other bonuses can be quite the life-saver!.
Mr_Teapot 01-23-08, 03:01 PM	the goblin is a good roguish character, but worse than the halfling, One of these two races has the bigger Move Silently bonus, a 30 foot move speed and can see in the dark. All these are essential to a rogue. And it ain't the halfling that gets them. The following are some races I'd like to see the views on. Nezumi Changlings Thri-Keen Nezumi rock. In fact, I'll upgrade humans to a full 10 and Nezumi to a 9 in my previous numbers. Prior to playing one, I had looked at their list of minor abilities and though that several of their abilities (immunity to taint, natural weapons, etc.) would be useless to any character I played. And this was true, but when I played one I realized that they had a fun flavor to them and their two big abilities (A Con bonus and a 40 foot move speed) were really good ones. These benefit almost any class, though they benefit light armored characters (Monks, rogues, scouts, swordsages) most. But a spellcaster would be happy to have a speed boost and a Con bonus, and a heavy armored fighter would enjoy not falling behind the rest of the party when chased by a hideous monster (you don't have to outrun the monster, you just have to outrun the heavy armored fighter). Changelings can be fun to play, but their signature ability is available as a reserve feat or a cheap magic item once you reach the mid levels. Thri-kreen always seem cool. A PC race that is actually alien, not just a Star Trek style human with slightly different facial features. But whenever I want to play one, I can't get the mechanics or character to work out right. The LA and monstrous hit dice kill off any hope of being a spellcaster or manifester (despite natural psionics), and the natural psionics don't help fighter-y types much. (Stripping the psionics from the removes much of what makes them unique.) Still, a crazy bonus to Jump checks and four arms say to me "Tiger Claw Focused Warblade".
SilverFoxKnows 01-23-08, 04:26 PM	Two questions about Humans & Half-Elves. Regarding Humans, the extra Feat and skill points are great but how do you guys work around the lack of low-light/darkvision? In our games we've been attacked at night at least as many times as in the daylight. And we've spent as much time underground as we have above it. Do you carry a ton of torches at low level? Have a party member cast Continual Light on a bunch of marbles? Buy some magic item that grants Darkvision? And if you use magic items how do you cope if you get hit with a Dispel Magic? Fight defensively till the item's power kicks back in? Spend your extra Feat on Blind-Fight? I'm honestly curious. I've been playing since 1e but rarely played Humans. Back in school I was an Elf fanboy. As of late I've got a thing for Dwarves & Goblins. Regarding Half-Elves, why the hate? A rating of 1, seriously? Behind Half-Orcs & Gnomes? Is it a backlash against the Elf fanboys? Let's look at 'em. They have no ability mods (like Humans), I call it a draw. Low-light vision, plus (huge plus). Favored class:any, plus. Bonuses to Search, Spot & Listen (oft used), plus. Not as good as the Human/Elf/Halfling skill bonuses but better than the skill bonuses given to the Half-Orcs (none), the Gnomes (Listen & Craft-alchemy) or the Dwarves (Craft & Appraise- related to stone/metal only). The sleep/enchantment bonuses aren't great. But even as is, they're set up to make pretty good Rogues and fair Rangers/Scouts. Or am I playing a totally different game?
Wharin 01-23-08, 11:15 PM	Humans: 7. I give them this rating because they are the default for which I will base my opinion of other races. While 7 might seem low to other players, since we are all Humans anyway, I for one am a little put off on how benale they are. Dwarf: 9.5. By far my favorite race. They get all the bonuses I could want (most importantly the bonus to craft checks, ironically, given how useless as they are). I have mixed feeling about how they are getting even moreso "sexified" in 4E; On one hand it seems disingenuous how the designers feel its nessisary to give a non-Human race Human ideals of sexiness, BUT at the same time, it always gets my goat how players refuse to play Dwarves simply because of their lack of physical appeal, so whatever. They don't get a perfect 10 because I like to play Paladins and Clerics and that CHA penalty does kind of get in the way. I save my "10" for the Gold Dwarf subrace that I have played more times than the standard race. Elf: 4. Pretty much the anti dwarf. While they definately have a number of good traits for them, they simply aren't as appealing as dwarves to me, and perhaps hypocritically I really don't care for them because of their popularity (which I suspect, without any real proof, is because of their physical appearance). Halflings: 7. If the fact that being small didn't affect any non-Rogue type melee combat so dramatically, I would rate them higher. Power Attack and its subesquent feats help negate this, BUT it just seems like a lot of work. I really like their new gypsy look compared to the old Hobbit look of older additions. While some call it Kender-like, which I suppose *physically* it is, to a point, they do make more suitable adventurers then the pudges of old. Gnomes: 5. I really just don't have any expierience with them, and they don't seem to fill any really cool roll thats not filled by other races. I could see how they could make great spell casters, but I dunno. I guess I am one of the many who just don't get excited over Gnomes Half-Elves: 6. These guys don't get a fair shake, in my mind. Personally, on those rare occasions when I'd want to play an Elven Tank, I'd just as soon make him Half Elven and at least get the benefit of a more interesting back story. Also, as party faces, they are second to few. Half-Orc: 5. I personally have no problem with these guys, per se, but their lack of flavourful abilities disappoints me. As far as power is concerned, I am fine, on, really, its just that they don't have much else other than their +2 STR and darkvision.
The_Shaman 01-24-08, 07:24 AM	Regarding Humans, the extra Feat and skill points are great but how do you guys work around the lack of low-light/darkvision? In our games we've been attacked at night at least as many times as in the daylight. Don't adventure at nights? Seriously, make a camp and have a decent campfire - or at most a few coverable light sources so you're prepared if you are attacked. Buy a pet riding dog to help sniff out enemies. The only problem is ranged combat, but few PCs go for that anyway. Besides, LLV and darkvision are fairly easy to get via items or magic, or just PrCs. It doesn't fully compensate, but essentially just having one or two nonhuman PCs is often enough at first. Then items, magic, and PrCs kick in. Regarding Half-Elves, why the hate? A rating of 1, seriously? Behind Half-Orcs & Gnomes? Is it a backlash against the Elf fanboys? Let's look at 'em. They have no ability mods (like Humans), I call it a draw. Low-light vision, plus (huge plus). Favored class:any, plus. Bonuses to Search, Spot & Listen (oft used), plus. Not as good as the Human/Elf/Halfling skill bonuses but better than the skill bonuses given to the Half-Orcs (none), the Gnomes (Listen & Craft-alchemy) or the Dwarves (Craft & Appraise- related to stone/metal only). The sleep/enchantment bonuses aren't great. But even as is, they're set up to make pretty good Rogues and fair Rangers/Scouts. Hate, maybe not, but no one takes them seriously. LLV? Right, as if they're the only race to have it. Besides, it hasn't come up that often in most games I've been in, and as I said it can be easily obtained. Favored class is nice, although many DMs don't seem to care about it by now. Bonuses aren't too bad, but inferior to the human or elven ones. You talk about gnomes or dwarves, but don't mention what else they get apart from skill points: dwarves get stonecunning (aka trapfinding in rocks), stability, and all the other stuff. Hell, a +2 to all saves vs magic or poison is arguably much better than anything HEs get. Gnomes get +1 to illusion DCs, spell-likes, bonus to saves, combat-related and dodge goodies, and so forth. Both races have generally better ability modifiers - +2 to constitution, -2 to charisma and strength, respectively. Edit: on second thought, deepwyrm half-drow are worth a 6 or so. They lose very little from the original (which already had darkvision instead of LLV) - the +2 to diplomacy becomes a +2 to bluff, and maybe - depending from how you see it - the +2 to will saves vs enchantment. They get the dragonblood subtype and a few okay spell-likes - detect magic is among the most useful cantrips, and disguise self is great for a scoundrel or anyone who does not want to look half-drow.
The_Shaman 01-24-08, 08:02 AM	Nezumi Changlings Thri-Keen Templates Yuan-ti Gith Dromites Nezumi: quite good, overall - 8.5, 9 to 9.5 if RKCS is allowed. Quite good ability modifiers for non-face characters, awesome land speed, okay-ish save/skill bonuses, natural weapons - including one that doesn't require having an empty hand - and scent. Why, thank you. Tail spikes mean you can make yet another attack, and become down-right brutal if they qualify the Nezumi for Multiweapon fighting - as I think they should. As rogues, rangers or scouts, they are damn good, and they make very decent martial adepts as well. As nearly everything else, they are decent. Oh, btw, RKCS has ratling subraces, which means they can be sorcerers as well. If they are allowed, these tribes can make the nezumi suited to any role, including party face (Third Whisker, Tattered ear). The shattered bone tribe make decent barbarians, or even monks, despite their LA. Changelings: 6.5. They make very good infiltrators and spies, although their racial abilities don't lend themselves nearly so well to other spheres - apart from a few decent PrCs. Then again, they don't have any weaknesses, either - a changeling barbarian might not be the best, but won't be too laughable either. Thri-kreen: 8+. They make racial HD and LA bearable, and that's not bad in itself as LA and HD - even the far-from-worse monstrous humanoid ones - are pretty bad. 4 arms, natural attacks, and other abilities make one of those insects a *bleep*ing blender. Apart from the entire creepy alien feel (heh, you guys thought adventuring with a changeling was weird? Guess what I have for you), they get a decent combat ability modifiers, proficiency with some pretty nasty exotics, and other abilities that make both the non-psionic and psionic versions decent. As primary manifesters or casters, they are not good - but a few PW levels can't go astray, and a thri-kreen monk->pyro (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/pyrokineticist.htm)/electro/aceto/sonokineticist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625e) with Tashalatora and an Amulet of Mighty Fists can be one of the craziest things you've seen. As rangers, they are also quite passable - I'm not sure if they can simultaneously fire 2 bows, but wielding 4 weapons is quite a decent deal as far as I'm concerned. As swordsages or warblades, they are no worse.Crazy buids I'd like to see: barbarian 2(pounce, no XP penalties)/scout3/ranger X - charge-tastic; monk 6/variant Xkineticist 8/ranger 2 or just Xkineticist 10 for tashalatora'd multiweapon fighting fun with nice extra elemental damage per hit Dromites: 5-. The chitin thing is nice, but just not enough to justify LA, especially with a net negative ability balance. Scent and blind-fight help, but with those abilities, you're not going to be a decent warrior - and the LA means you're not a great manifester either. The small size can help if you are going for attack-based damage powers, but even then the lack of a dex bonus means they're not that good into it. Unless you're into weird, give the little dudes a pass. They are not as badly LAd as the blues, but they're still sub-par at practically everything. Yuan-ti I don't know much about mechanically, Githyanki seem a bit weak for their LA but a bit too strong without it, and templates are a whole different ball game. Generally, decent templates are draconic, dragonborn of bahamut, necropolitan, half-fey (in some cases), mineral warrior, and a few others. Phrenic and feral may be near-broken, to be honest.
SilverFoxKnows 01-24-08, 12:01 PM	Don't adventure at nights? Seriously, make a camp and have a decent campfire - or at most a few coverable light sources so you're prepared if you are attacked. Buy a pet riding dog to help sniff out enemies. The only problem is ranged combat, but few PCs go for that anyway. Besides, LLV and darkvision are fairly easy to get via items or magic, or just PrCs. It doesn't fully compensate, but essentially just having one or two nonhuman PCs is often enough at first. Then items, magic, and PrCs kick in. Hate, maybe not, but no one takes them seriously. LLV? Right, as if they're the only race to have it. Besides, it hasn't come up that often in most games I've been in, and as I said it can be easily obtained. Favored class is nice, although many DMs don't seem to care about it by now. Bonuses aren't too bad, but inferior to the human or elven ones. You talk about gnomes or dwarves, but don't mention what else they get apart from skill points: dwarves get stonecunning (aka trapfinding in rocks), stability, and all the other stuff. Hell, a +2 to all saves vs magic or poison is arguably much better than anything HEs get. Gnomes get +1 to illusion DCs, spell-likes, bonus to saves, combat-related and dodge goodies, and so forth. Both races have generally better ability modifiers - +2 to constitution, -2 to charisma and strength, respectively. Camp fire at night? Sure. The Humans can see in melee but even semi-intelligent foes will open up with missiles first. And if they're smart, they'll stay in the dark and use cover. In the campaign we're playing right now a fire isn't always a good thing, it gives away your position for miles. Our friends are few and far between, our enemies (all with darkvision) many. We're a long way from a real city with magic items to sell. I realize it's campaign specific but the theme of this part of our campaign is "frontier". You're right, the Dwarves do get a ton of extra stuff. Some of it quite good. They get far more goodies than the Hobgoblins (who they have pegged at LA+1). They're easily the most powerful of the PHB races. The save bonuses are awesome. And stonecunning is cool. But I haven't found the other stuff to come in handy too often. Nobody tries to bullrush the Dwarf and I haven't seen an Orc or a Giant in quite a while. Again, I guess that's campaign specific. A 20' move has proved to be a hinderance more than once. Darkvision rules but the slow move is a drawback. But like I said, I like the Dwarves a great deal. Gnomes? Their goodies are far too conditional for my liking. If I was going to play an Illusionist or a Bard, sure I might play a Gnome. LLV is cool but the 20' move is a drag, I guess that evens out. Maybe if there were more fluff to support them they might catch my fancy but as it stands they're neither here nor there. Their abilities don't mesh well for what I like to play. Come to think of it, I've never seen anybody play one, 1e, 2e or 3e. I guess if you scrap the favored class the Half-Elves lose a major advantage (we're still playing with favored class). My point wasn't that the HE is the greatest thing since indoor plumbing. Only that they don't deserve a rating of 1. I would still put them above the Half-Orc and the Gnome. LLV, 30' move, favored class: any (if you use that rule), bonus to Spot/Listen/Search (used constantly). I still say they get more than the Half-Orc (which I also like) and get more useful stuff than the Gnome. YMMV
CelineSSauve 01-24-08, 12:33 PM	Humans: (-2?) Sure they have a bonus Feat and Skill, but no flavour and, guess what?, I've been one for just over 23 years as of around New Years. Been there, done that, no flavour. Elves: (8.5) Love the auto-search feature, but the Con penalty does make Elves less likely for me if I'm playing anything of a martial nature. Can make a passable Rogue though if you concentrate on the "sneaky" aspect instead of the "deadly" one. Half-Elves: (10) Very helpful for social encounters and games. They get some of the Elves' goodness without the stat penalties. Great potential for various personalities and such without going out of your way to make your PC raised by another race or something equally drastic. Dwarves: (4?) Don't like the feel of Dwarves as written so I never really played one. Who wants a character which has a useful ability (*cough*Darkvision*cough*) which is basically useless unless everyone else has it? Gnomes: (4.5) Would have been a 6 except for the swap to Bards, what was with that anyway? Push the Elves to Sorcerers and leave the Gnomes do what they do best, play pranks and be pests! Um, that is, I love the minor magical abilities they get just for being Gnomes. The Racial personality has a nice flair. Nevertheless, I've rarely played one, mostly because I love Half-Elves and Elves so much and avoid Wizards like the Plague. Half-Orcs: (5) The Half-Elves' potential for a very interesting childhood but rather steep penalties for a +2 Str bonus. Played once in a while, but never outside of a Fighter or Barbarian role. Halflings: (2) Probably the way my Dms tend to have treated them in game (males = Thieves; females = prostitutes. Yes. Seriously) but I don't like the little critters. Their boosts vs Fear would be handy against Dragons, I suppose, which is how they stayed in the positive. Halflings [side note]: Just looking at them as written, probably a (5.5) or so. Good flavour in the PHB and the ability to imagine them in many, many roles even if you take the "wandering entertainment troupe" backstory. Monks as the acrobats, Wizards and Sorcerers as Seers. Druids/Rangers to care for the animals and make sure they can make it safely on the road. And so on.
Zardnaar 01-24-08, 01:41 PM	Human 10- can be anything and makes a decent job of it. Dwarf 9. In some ways more powerful than human but the cha penalty hurts some classes. Better than human in alot of roles though (anything apart from Sorcerer, Paladin, Bard really). Elf 7. Popular though but unusal mish mash of racial abilities. Decent Rogue and Ranger though Gnome/Halfling 1- quite good at spellcasters and rogue types. Half Orc/Elf 5/10 kinda weak and bland.
DastardlyDan 01-24-08, 01:45 PM	Okay, just for fun, I'll prop open my PHB and go through the Races chapter, giving points to (or taking away from) them in my opinion: (Note I used a 1-5 scale for each individual racial feature, then totaled them for the Overall score) Humans: Overall Score: +8 Size Medium - score 0. No bonuses, but no penalties Speed 30' - score 0, pretty standard. Extra Feat - Worth at least a 3, because feats are very important to characters. Extra Skill Points - Worth 5 to me. I feel that most characters are skill point starved, and extra skill points is a big factor for me. Automatic Languages - A whopping 0. Only common, which everyone gets. Favored Class - I'll mention it here, but nowhere else...favored classes are purely for flavor in most campaigns I play, since most DMs ignore XP penalties. Mechanically it's great to have Any, but favored classes mostly equate to flavor in most campaigns. So It's a null 0 for everybody. Dwarves: Overall Score: +11 Stats: +2 Con, -2 Cha = +1, because Con tends to be more important than Cha to most builds Size Medium - 0 Speed 20', which nets a -1, BUT balanced because they don't lose speed for being encumbered, which nets a +3 in my opinion...so +2 in this category. Darkvision +1 because it's a great ability, but in most games I've played it rarely comes into play Stonecunning 0. Mostly useless bonuses unless you're building a rogue in my opinion, but being able to intuit depth is nice. Weapon Familiarity +1, nice not having to spend a feat on it anymore Stability +1, a situationally useful ability Save vs. poison: 0, rarely comes into play in games for me vs. spells: +1, comes in handy, but not game changing +1 vs. Orcs +1 because it comes into play pretty often, but not game-changing Dodge vs. giants: +2, because it's a fairly large bonus Appraise 0, skill doesn't get used much by me no matter my build Craft 0 again, same reasons Languages +1 for one racial Elves Overall Score: +8 Stats: +2 Dex, -2 Con = -1. Dex is nice, but Con hurts more Size Med=0 Speed 30'=0 Sleep Immune to magical sleep +1, naturally not needing to sleep +1, so +2 here Saves vs. enchantment: +1, bonus is okay Low-Light Vision 0, rarely comes into play Weapon Prof. +2, nice range of weapon profs for free Skills +3 for heavily-used skills Portal search 0. Nice ability, but again class-specific Languages +1 for one racial Gnomes Overall Score: +11 Stats: +2 Con, -2 Str: I'll net a 0, because penalty and bonus are pretty balanced Small +2...size gives too many bonuses compared to Medium to be a bad thing Speed -1 for only 20' Weapon Familiarity +1 Nice to have Saves meh, +1 because it's better than nothing +1 Illusion DC 0 because it's too class specific Attack Bonus +2 because it's a broad range of enemies Dodge +2, same as Dwarves Skill +1 for Listen, which comes in handy, 0 for Craft because it's mostly not used, +1 overall Languages +1 again Spell-Like Abilities +2 because one is Prestidigitation (+1), +1 for the others Half-Orcs Overall Score: +1 Stats +2 Str, -2 Int, -2 Cha = -1. Str is nice and can outweigh the penalties, but loss of skill points hurts. Size and Speed both are 0 Darkvision +1 Orc Blood 0 I've never seen racial blood matter much, except in certain builds Languages +1 for racial Halflings Overall Score: 11 Stats +2 Dex, -2 Str = 0. Whether you prefer Dex or Str depends on your build, and the benefit of one can outweigh the penalty of the other. Size +2 for small! Speed -1 for 20' Skills +3 for a nice spread, most of which are used somewhat often +1 to all saves WHAT? +5 EASY. Free Cloak of Resistance +2 vs. fear +1, situationally useful, but doesn't come up much +1 throwing 0 only benefits if you build for it Languages +1 for racial Okay, so I think the Half-Orc sucks totally. I never play them, unless I'd go for a build requiring the racial blood. The Dwarves' score surprised me, to be honest...I like Dwarves for RP flavor, not so much mechanically...but I guess they're not so bad after all. So: Halflings, Gnomes, and Dwarves get a 10 on a 1-10 scale (for being the highest 3) due to their mechancial advantages. Flavor-wise, they're great too. Humans and Elves get an 8. Elves have more flavor, but Humans beat them mechanically. Orcs get a 2. Useless unless you're going for something with no mechancial advantages that are worthwhile, and only benefiting certain builds for their race. RP-wise they have great potential, I'll give them that...but most Orc characters I've seen end up just being "The pointy end goes in the other guy" types, beginning to end. That's my opinions.
Bopple 01-26-08, 03:23 AM	LA+0, mechanically only Human - 10 for any One more bonus feat means one more functionality and PrC entrance 3-lvl earlier. Extra skills mean easier PrC entrance. Favored Class means easier multiclassing. With so many splatbooks out there, human is the king of any powerful build, as long as LA+0 race goes. Dwarf - 8 for most, 7 for light infantry Pretty solid. Cha penalty can be avoided with subraces. The main problem is its bulky physique, because some find it less attractive to play. Core Elf - 1 for most, 8 for wizard Con-2 hits pretty hard. Other abilities do not synergize well. Gray Elf - 10 for wizard Wood Elf - 8 for ranger Core Halfling - 6 for most, 7 for expert Not bad. But not good enough, either. Strongheart Halfling (FR) - 9 Almost as good as human, due to its bonus feat. Core Gnome - 5 for most, 7 for light infantry, 10 for illusionist Similar to core halfling. But it has better PrC options. Forest Gnome - 6 for most, 7 for expert, 8 for light infantry, 10 for illusionist On top of core gnome's abilities, it has some more? Whisper Gnome - 9 for most, 10+ for expert and light infantry I am not sure how this can be LA+0, while Deep Gnome is LA+3. Half-orc - 1 for most, 7 for melee Half-elf - 4 for most, 8 for bard
Angel Black 01-29-08, 02:24 PM	I'm working on something, and maybe you guys can help me out. I'm asking for people to rate the core races from the PHB on a scale of 1-10. Use any standard you want, judge them on game mechanics, flavor or fluff, whether or not you ever/never play them, anything. If you want to make it interesting, give some reasons. Here's mine: Human-Awfully Overpowered One of the few ones that can take Duskblade as Favored Class.Gets PRc earlier,Feats earlier,etc,etc. Dwarf-4 Design is awful, but is a good exotic weapon - fighter. Elf-4 Design is awful, but is a good spellcaster/archer. Halfling-5 Design is pretty good, a few things in there I don't need, but in spite of that is a well design for a LA 0 small creature that throws rocks. Gnome-2 Spell-like abilities ruin this guy.Only good thing to play one is because you can use bard as a Prestige Class, or you really want that DC bonus to illusions. Half-Orc-4 Good design but they give to him too much penalty for a +2 Str. Half-Elf-3 Worst Design, literally they hack an elf in two, and give im a +2 to two skills that aren't useful in a fight.But because a Half-elf have lots of fluff ,I give him an extra point.Play it if you just wanna be "that helpful guy that can solve the problem" but you won't be a "Rambo" or a "Skywalker" anytime soon. Non PHB: Goblin -5 Low CR, but in spite of that because of his size and his racial bonus to ride can be an amazing warrior. Kobold-7 I would say 8, but has a low CR, anyway he can be the best caster, he is better caster than elves. Forest Gnome -5 Why do the people use the other gnome?
The_Shaman 01-30-08, 06:56 AM	What do you mean by awful design in dwarves and elves, btw?
Angel Black 01-30-08, 05:27 PM	Why did the elf design is awful?: 4 weapon proficiencies that are almost useless when you take a Fighter or Ranger level, inmunities and racial saves are nice but not that good after a few levels.So about 50% of the elf traits become a waste of space fairly soon. Why did the dwarf design is awful?: They try to put too much into a "small package".Most of it is good, but then they add the Craft and Appraise bonuses, and those racial bonuses against some monsters, that made them reduce the power of the Stability bonus and Stonecunning in name of the "balance". So Dwarf must be about 4.4 and elf is in 3.9
The_Shaman 01-31-08, 04:00 PM	@Angel Black: I generally disagree, and here is why: Why did the elf design is awful?: 4 weapon proficiencies that are almost useless when you take a Fighter or Ranger level, inmunities and racial saves are nice but not that good after a few levels.So about 50% of the elf traits become a waste of space fairly soon. I personally don't rate the elf race particularly high either, but for different reasons. I'm mostly with you on the weapons; the major beneficents of the feature are clerics or druids. Personally, I would have preferred an attack bonus with those weapons, like the one halflings get. As for the skills, that's a problem most races get - just look at half-elves. I think the bonus vs enchantment stays useful, though - especially for fighters or rangers, who tend to have poor will save. IMO the main problem with elves' racial features is that their bonuses and penalties should have made them good for the roles stereotypical elves supposedly excelled at - sages/wizards and rangers. Substitution levels and PrCs can help that, but the standard elven race doesn't do very well at it. Surprisingly, as practically all elven sub-races are better at one or the other. Still, the bonus to dexterity and other goodies come in useful at times, and there has been some support for the race in terms of racial exotic weapons, PrCs, and sub levels, so I could give it a 5/10 - a low pass or even a fail in most education systems I know of, anyway. Sub-races tend to be better, as I've said. Skill bonuses are fairly meh, although spot/listen/search come up very often (probably the most often used skills in any game I've been in) and it helps to have even a minor bonus. Why did the dwarf design is awful?: They try to put too much into a "small package".Most of it is good, but then they add the Craft and Appraise bonuses, and those racial bonuses against some monsters, that made them reduce the power of the Stability bonus and Stonecunning in name of the "balance". I don't follow what you mean - and I don't think stability and stonecunning are weak, or have been weakened. Because the craft/appraise bonuses are imo great for dwarves, who traditionally are supposed to be master craftsmen and experts on valuable goods. As for the racial attack bonuses, those make sense from a lore perspective as well. I don't know what you mean by reducing the power of stability and stonecunning, though. Stonecunning, among other things, is basically trapfinding in most dungeon-based adventures. Stability is situational, but still good for anyone who expects to be in a melee - and given the dwarves' physical build (heavy-set, low center of gravity) also makes sense. So we have a lot of abilities, some of which quite useful for nearly every character (+2 to saves vs spells, con bonus, darkvision... do I need to continue?) and tend to work well with the racial archetype. Works for me. If you mean that stonecunning used to be better, that's debatable - iirc in 2nd edition dwarves had something that helped with subterranean navigation, but I don't remember if it was any better. At any rate, it was imo worse than the built-in stealth elves and halflings had.
thorofasgard13 01-31-08, 05:47 PM	9.5- Elves, SO there's 1 hit-point that you don't get per level. They are perfect in every other way, their variants, their racial substitution/paragon classes, and the racial feats. 9- Dwarves....Come on!!! 8- Half-orcs, Who doesn't want to be the big burly bruiser sometime, or at least look the part. ( The Half-Orc Wizard is too funny not to try) 7- Human...Eh. 6- Gnomes, Decent at pretty much everything, Great as the Illusionist racial substitution class, especially with some multi class action. 4- Halflings, So you have a short even skinnier elf, big whoop! 2- Half Elves. Why...? MAKE THEM ACTUALLY GOOD! Outside of these I'd Have to say the only 10 in my mind is the Half-Dragon, I'm totally biased when it comes to these guys.
Qube 02-01-08, 08:24 AM	Dwarf: 10 Human: 9 Elf: 8 Half-Orc: 7 Halfling: 6 Gnome: 5 (seriously. bard? make them and artificier core. problem solved!) Half-Elf: 4
Mr_Teapot 02-01-08, 10:48 AM	Gnome: 5 (seriously. bard? make them and artificier core. problem solved!) In my mind, gnomes have favored class of beguiler, since that is the best connection to the gnome's old-school thief/illusionist multiclass option (which was sort of their unique niche in 2nd ed and before).