Reducing a Vampires LA [Archive] - Wizards Community

Reducing a Vampires LA [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
HammerSmashed
04-30-07, 06:58 AM So well as we know Vampires have a horribly large LA of +8
Which doesnot seem worth it. So if we where to remove the Gas form ability, the ability which allows them to summon wolfs ect... and their alternate form and one maybe two of the feats. Then what LA would you guys give them??? I would personally put them at 5 maybe 4. :cool:
Deamion
04-30-07, 08:07 AM just remove the create spawn ability or alter it so that the spawn created is not under your control. create spawn accounts for a large portion of the vampire LA.
HammerSmashed
04-30-07, 08:22 AM Thats a good idea actually. So if we took that out too what would we rate the vampire at like a 3???
RobbyPants
04-30-07, 09:16 AM I don't know how much help this will be, but take a look at my modified vampire template (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=708607).

The idea is that the powers scale with level. For example, a level 1 - 2 vampire only gets so many abilities (The stat adjustments are limited to +2 Str and +2 Cha). Every two levels, they get new abilities, increasing their power. Around 5th to 7th level, they are about equal to the standard MM vampires.

There are two issues with this:

I haven't worked out a good LA system for them yet. Tenitively, I'd start them at LA +2, and add about 2 every odd level, capping at LA +8 at 7th, then LA +9 at 9th, and LA +10 at 13th. The problem is, they don't have a static LA, which makes them a pain to run as a PC.
Something I've strongly considered (but haven't had the time for) is to make them more like a Savage Spiecies progression, so you can "buy" your vampire powers with levels. This would help with PC balance.

Anyway, there are some other goodies in there as well. I get into more detail about weaknesses and dependancies. I do agree that you could pull down the LA a bit from +8. As Deamion mentioned, remove the controlling portion of Create Spawn. Also, consider some of the following:

Change the 1d4 Con drain to damage.
Remove the energy drain (the blood drain works well for flavor and crunch).
Reduce the Ability adjustments. Perhaps (as an example), consider Str +4, Dex +4, Con -, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +2. It's a small, but noticable change.

Anyway, there are a few ideas. Good luck! :D
Ebonyte
04-30-07, 04:15 PM I'd say pick up Libris Mortis and use the Vampire Spawn moster class. If you'll be getting rid of the Create Spawn and animal forms, you're really just playing a V Spawn, anyway. Plus, it's a leveled advancement, so they can maintain balance. Any further beasty powers can be acquired in a class-way, ala Warlock Dark Discorporation taking the place of bat form, eventually.
The_Shaman
04-30-07, 04:35 PM There's a 3rd party supplement called Fang and Fury that introduced vampire scions with a LA +2. If you don't have it, the LM half-vampires can be modified for a "vampired lite" template.
HammerSmashed
05-07-07, 12:08 AM Meh I like the Anne Rice vampires so i was kinda basing it off that so playing a vampire would not be beyond painfull....
Ebonyte
05-07-07, 10:03 AM Anne Rice vampires are, by and large, Dragon Ball Z powerful, which isn't very fun, in my book.

"By Pelor! He can go in the sun, doesn't need to drink blood, can rape my mind of it's every secret, can ONLY be destroyed by fire at this point, but can move so fast that he could probably run circles around the fire and suck away all the oxygen and put it out, and he can fly and immolate other vampires with a thought!"

What could possibly fight you, short of demons, themselves? And after Memnoch, we can see that no demon would want to hurt you... they LIKE you too much!

Sorry, but a Rician Vampire is a unbelievable exercise in power gaming. Part of the joy (at least for me) of playing any character, ESPECIALLY a vampire, is playing it's weaknesses. Let's face it, take away those weaknesses, and a vampire ISN'T A VAMPIRE ANYMORE. It might as well be a pretty Necropolitan.
Misaru
05-10-07, 09:49 PM Things to keep (maybe modified)
1) Blood Drain - Steals (Cha) Temporary hit points
2) Turn Resistance - +4
3) Resistance 10 cold/resistance
4) Spider Climb
5) Alternate Form - Make it usuable a set number of days (Cha/2), and no dire forms (?)
6) Fast Healing - Only in coffin (if you want your PC/NPC to have one)
7) Change Domination to maybe Charm Person (caster level equal to Vampires Character Level + Charisma)

Things to change (no suggestion, sorry)
1) Stats
2) Skill bonuses
3) Feats
Context
05-10-07, 10:23 PM A lot of things have been written about this. The D&D vampires, are rediculous.

Fang and Fury is an OK take on the subject. The problem I found is that it's fairly broken, but not REALLY broken, and it's unnecessarily complex.

The Lords of the Night: Vampires is another take on it. It's arguably a -better- take on it. It's really complicated, again, but it's easier to understand. It has an interesting number of options.

The easiest take of course is K and Trollmans. Check out the Tome of Necromancy here on the forums.

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=632562
HammerSmashed
05-10-07, 11:41 PM Anne Rice vampires are, by and large, Dragon Ball Z powerful, which isn't very fun, in my book.

"By Pelor! He can go in the sun, doesn't need to drink blood, can rape my mind of it's every secret, can ONLY be destroyed by fire at this point, but can move so fast that he could probably run circles around the fire and suck away all the oxygen and put it out, and he can fly and immolate other vampires with a thought!"

What could possibly fight you, short of demons, themselves? And after Memnoch, we can see that no demon would want to hurt you... they LIKE you too much!

Sorry, but a Rician Vampire is a unbelievable exercise in power gaming. Part of the joy (at least for me) of playing any character, ESPECIALLY a vampire, is playing it's weaknesses. Let's face it, take away those weaknesses, and a vampire ISN'T A VAMPIRE ANYMORE. It might as well be a pretty Necropolitan.

Well asuming that I'm trying to reduce the LA, Im really trying to go for the first 2 books... I mean is that not what people would asume?? And anyways if I wanted that id use Vamp lord and soup it up some more....
Lina_Inverse
05-11-07, 01:38 AM Meh I like the Anne Rice vampires so i was kinda basing it off that so playing a vampire would not be beyond painfull....

If being a vampire doesn't suck your not a vampire.

Mind you vampires are so weak in D&D you can't help but kill them, Any LA is too punishing.
DarkRhystar
05-11-07, 01:52 AM I'd say pick up Libris Mortis and use the Vampire Spawn moster class. If you'll be getting rid of the Create Spawn and animal forms, you're really just playing a V Spawn, anyway. Plus, it's a leveled advancement, so they can maintain balance. Any further beasty powers can be acquired in a class-way, ala Warlock Dark Discorporation taking the place of bat form, eventually.

This would be a good idea if that Vampire Spawn didn't kinda suck itself.

Dropping a hit die and a LA or two would do that class wonders though.
Maraxus
05-11-07, 03:29 AM As mentioned, "create spawn" is one thing that makes a lot of this high LA. The other thing is the Domination power. Dominate person at will is something you (as a dm) don't want anyway, unless all relevant NPCs are non-humanoid.

I suggest to change them like that:

Domination: Relace by suggestion, it's much more what Bram Stoker would do. Maybe limit the choise of targets to humanoid and monsterous humanoid (through I like the idea of giant-vampires and would like this ability to it for flavor reasons)

Create Spawn: Yes vampies need to create spawns, and they need controll over them. However, why not make it that way: "As long as the vampire can see his spawn, he can mentally control him with a move action each round. A vampire (no spawn) can make a will save to ignore the orders for one round (each round). Of course, Master Vampires tent to mistrust (read: kill) their spawned vampires that try this save."

These to limitations might be enough to reduce it to +5, I think.
Qube
05-11-07, 05:59 AM Anne Rice vampires are, by and large, Dragon Ball Z powerful, which isn't very fun, in my book.

"By Pelor! He can go in the sun, doesn't need to drink blood, can rape my mind of it's every secret, can ONLY be destroyed by fire at this point, but can move so fast that he could probably run circles around the fire and suck away all the oxygen and put it out, and he can fly and immolate other vampires with a thought!"thats not even close to DBZ powerfull :D

-- an anime fan
Ebonyte
05-11-07, 01:42 PM I'm just going by the impression I get. No, vampires can't turn into giant god-monkeys who die and come back and die and come back and get more and more and more powerful until they can reduce a planet to dust with a glance and then reduce the dust to nothing with a thought. That WOULD be DBZ. ;)

But comparatively-speaking, between, say, a WoD Vampire, a D&D Vampire, and a Rice Vampire, the Rice Vampire is heinously overpowered. The vampire is defined by their weaknesses. An unkillable vampire is, simply, no fun to play, by my standards. But then, some people enjoy the idea of being "even more unkillable" than the ultimate bad guy and so on. It's really just a matter of taste.
Zardnaar
05-11-07, 07:44 PM Most of Rices vampires are weaker than a D&D vampire. The Queen and Lestat are more powerful but theyre exceptions rather than the rule.
Darth Sephiroth
05-11-07, 08:19 PM Modify the LA Buyoff with it, it would be a nice thing for the game
HammerSmashed
05-14-07, 12:39 AM So does anyone think that the vampire lord template makes up for the poopieness of the LA they get and just as said before Lestat and them are the exeptions I wanted to be more simple like the vampires of the 1 and second book that where not over whelming with power.
ElberethSilverleaf
05-14-07, 04:56 PM Excuse me, but whats the point of even wanting to play a vampire in D&D?
What normal party of people want to play with a character they know is an evil bloodsucking abomination?
Chimaera2000
05-14-07, 07:44 PM ....because deep down, he's just a nice, ordinary guy who wants to relax with a bottle of Type O at the end of the day?
HammerSmashed
05-16-07, 02:48 AM Why is evrey campaighn a good one???? I mean wow that is boring as hell to always be the good guys.......
ElberethSilverleaf
05-17-07, 01:09 AM Why is evrey campaighn a good one???? I mean wow that is boring as hell to always be the good guys.......

Well maybe because most nonsociopathic people actually like being/playing the part of the hero.
I'm not saying be the dull stick in the mud straightbacked paladin but a hero that people want to look up to.
Most socially well adjusted people don't want to be a mass murdering bloodsucking undead beast.

(of course in real life there is that minute subculture of so called "vampires" existing who dress all in black, wear black lipstick & nail polish and think it's cool to suck their friends blood and think Morrisey is god)
DarkRhystar
05-17-07, 02:41 AM Well maybe because most nonsociopathic people actually like being/playing the part of the hero.
I'm not saying be the dull stick in the mud straightbacked paladin but a hero that people want to look up to.
Most socially well adjusted people don't want to be a mass murdering bloodsucking undead beast.

Since when should someone be restricted by flavor?

Out of all the elements in D&D, it is easily the most malleable and rewritable.

Many problems are solved before they begin by simply going up to the DM and saying "I have this idea for a character; how can we make it work?"

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
HammerSmashed 04-30-07, 06:58 AM	So well as we know Vampires have a horribly large LA of +8 Which doesnot seem worth it. So if we where to remove the Gas form ability, the ability which allows them to summon wolfs ect... and their alternate form and one maybe two of the feats. Then what LA would you guys give them??? I would personally put them at 5 maybe 4. :cool:
Deamion 04-30-07, 08:07 AM	just remove the create spawn ability or alter it so that the spawn created is not under your control. create spawn accounts for a large portion of the vampire LA.
HammerSmashed 04-30-07, 08:22 AM	Thats a good idea actually. So if we took that out too what would we rate the vampire at like a 3???
RobbyPants 04-30-07, 09:16 AM	I don't know how much help this will be, but take a look at my modified vampire template (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=708607). The idea is that the powers scale with level. For example, a level 1 - 2 vampire only gets so many abilities (The stat adjustments are limited to +2 Str and +2 Cha). Every two levels, they get new abilities, increasing their power. Around 5th to 7th level, they are about equal to the standard MM vampires. There are two issues with this: I haven't worked out a good LA system for them yet. Tenitively, I'd start them at LA +2, and add about 2 every odd level, capping at LA +8 at 7th, then LA +9 at 9th, and LA +10 at 13th. The problem is, they don't have a static LA, which makes them a pain to run as a PC. Something I've strongly considered (but haven't had the time for) is to make them more like a Savage Spiecies progression, so you can "buy" your vampire powers with levels. This would help with PC balance. Anyway, there are some other goodies in there as well. I get into more detail about weaknesses and dependancies. I do agree that you could pull down the LA a bit from +8. As Deamion mentioned, remove the controlling portion of Create Spawn. Also, consider some of the following: Change the 1d4 Con drain to damage. Remove the energy drain (the blood drain works well for flavor and crunch). Reduce the Ability adjustments. Perhaps (as an example), consider Str +4, Dex +4, Con -, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +2. It's a small, but noticable change. Anyway, there are a few ideas. Good luck! :D
Ebonyte 04-30-07, 04:15 PM	I'd say pick up Libris Mortis and use the Vampire Spawn moster class. If you'll be getting rid of the Create Spawn and animal forms, you're really just playing a V Spawn, anyway. Plus, it's a leveled advancement, so they can maintain balance. Any further beasty powers can be acquired in a class-way, ala Warlock Dark Discorporation taking the place of bat form, eventually.
The_Shaman 04-30-07, 04:35 PM	There's a 3rd party supplement called Fang and Fury that introduced vampire scions with a LA +2. If you don't have it, the LM half-vampires can be modified for a "vampired lite" template.
HammerSmashed 05-07-07, 12:08 AM	Meh I like the Anne Rice vampires so i was kinda basing it off that so playing a vampire would not be beyond painfull....
Ebonyte 05-07-07, 10:03 AM	Anne Rice vampires are, by and large, Dragon Ball Z powerful, which isn't very fun, in my book. "By Pelor! He can go in the sun, doesn't need to drink blood, can rape my mind of it's every secret, can ONLY be destroyed by fire at this point, but can move so fast that he could probably run circles around the fire and suck away all the oxygen and put it out, and he can fly and immolate other vampires with a thought!" What could possibly fight you, short of demons, themselves? And after Memnoch, we can see that no demon would want to hurt you... they LIKE you too much! Sorry, but a Rician Vampire is a unbelievable exercise in power gaming. Part of the joy (at least for me) of playing any character, ESPECIALLY a vampire, is playing it's weaknesses. Let's face it, take away those weaknesses, and a vampire ISN'T A VAMPIRE ANYMORE. It might as well be a pretty Necropolitan.
Misaru 05-10-07, 09:49 PM	Things to keep (maybe modified) 1) Blood Drain - Steals (Cha) Temporary hit points 2) Turn Resistance - +4 3) Resistance 10 cold/resistance 4) Spider Climb 5) Alternate Form - Make it usuable a set number of days (Cha/2), and no dire forms (?) 6) Fast Healing - Only in coffin (if you want your PC/NPC to have one) 7) Change Domination to maybe Charm Person (caster level equal to Vampires Character Level + Charisma) Things to change (no suggestion, sorry) 1) Stats 2) Skill bonuses 3) Feats
Context 05-10-07, 10:23 PM	A lot of things have been written about this. The D&D vampires, are rediculous. Fang and Fury is an OK take on the subject. The problem I found is that it's fairly broken, but not REALLY broken, and it's unnecessarily complex. The Lords of the Night: Vampires is another take on it. It's arguably a -better- take on it. It's really complicated, again, but it's easier to understand. It has an interesting number of options. The easiest take of course is K and Trollmans. Check out the Tome of Necromancy here on the forums. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=632562
HammerSmashed 05-10-07, 11:41 PM	Anne Rice vampires are, by and large, Dragon Ball Z powerful, which isn't very fun, in my book. "By Pelor! He can go in the sun, doesn't need to drink blood, can rape my mind of it's every secret, can ONLY be destroyed by fire at this point, but can move so fast that he could probably run circles around the fire and suck away all the oxygen and put it out, and he can fly and immolate other vampires with a thought!" What could possibly fight you, short of demons, themselves? And after Memnoch, we can see that no demon would want to hurt you... they LIKE you too much! Sorry, but a Rician Vampire is a unbelievable exercise in power gaming. Part of the joy (at least for me) of playing any character, ESPECIALLY a vampire, is playing it's weaknesses. Let's face it, take away those weaknesses, and a vampire ISN'T A VAMPIRE ANYMORE. It might as well be a pretty Necropolitan. Well asuming that I'm trying to reduce the LA, Im really trying to go for the first 2 books... I mean is that not what people would asume?? And anyways if I wanted that id use Vamp lord and soup it up some more....
Lina_Inverse 05-11-07, 01:38 AM	Meh I like the Anne Rice vampires so i was kinda basing it off that so playing a vampire would not be beyond painfull.... If being a vampire doesn't suck your not a vampire. Mind you vampires are so weak in D&D you can't help but kill them, Any LA is too punishing.
DarkRhystar 05-11-07, 01:52 AM	I'd say pick up Libris Mortis and use the Vampire Spawn moster class. If you'll be getting rid of the Create Spawn and animal forms, you're really just playing a V Spawn, anyway. Plus, it's a leveled advancement, so they can maintain balance. Any further beasty powers can be acquired in a class-way, ala Warlock Dark Discorporation taking the place of bat form, eventually. This would be a good idea if that Vampire Spawn didn't kinda suck itself. Dropping a hit die and a LA or two would do that class wonders though.
Maraxus 05-11-07, 03:29 AM	As mentioned, "create spawn" is one thing that makes a lot of this high LA. The other thing is the Domination power. Dominate person at will is something you (as a dm) don't want anyway, unless all relevant NPCs are non-humanoid. I suggest to change them like that: Domination: Relace by suggestion, it's much more what Bram Stoker would do. Maybe limit the choise of targets to humanoid and monsterous humanoid (through I like the idea of giant-vampires and would like this ability to it for flavor reasons) Create Spawn: Yes vampies need to create spawns, and they need controll over them. However, why not make it that way: "As long as the vampire can see his spawn, he can mentally control him with a move action each round. A vampire (no spawn) can make a will save to ignore the orders for one round (each round). Of course, Master Vampires tent to mistrust (read: kill) their spawned vampires that try this save." These to limitations might be enough to reduce it to +5, I think.
Qube 05-11-07, 05:59 AM	Anne Rice vampires are, by and large, Dragon Ball Z powerful, which isn't very fun, in my book. "By Pelor! He can go in the sun, doesn't need to drink blood, can rape my mind of it's every secret, can ONLY be destroyed by fire at this point, but can move so fast that he could probably run circles around the fire and suck away all the oxygen and put it out, and he can fly and immolate other vampires with a thought!"thats not even close to DBZ powerfull :D -- an anime fan
Ebonyte 05-11-07, 01:42 PM	I'm just going by the impression I get. No, vampires can't turn into giant god-monkeys who die and come back and die and come back and get more and more and more powerful until they can reduce a planet to dust with a glance and then reduce the dust to nothing with a thought. That WOULD be DBZ. ;) But comparatively-speaking, between, say, a WoD Vampire, a D&D Vampire, and a Rice Vampire, the Rice Vampire is heinously overpowered. The vampire is defined by their weaknesses. An unkillable vampire is, simply, no fun to play, by my standards. But then, some people enjoy the idea of being "even more unkillable" than the ultimate bad guy and so on. It's really just a matter of taste.
Zardnaar 05-11-07, 07:44 PM	Most of Rices vampires are weaker than a D&D vampire. The Queen and Lestat are more powerful but theyre exceptions rather than the rule.
Darth Sephiroth 05-11-07, 08:19 PM	Modify the LA Buyoff with it, it would be a nice thing for the game
HammerSmashed 05-14-07, 12:39 AM	So does anyone think that the vampire lord template makes up for the poopieness of the LA they get and just as said before Lestat and them are the exeptions I wanted to be more simple like the vampires of the 1 and second book that where not over whelming with power.
ElberethSilverleaf 05-14-07, 04:56 PM	Excuse me, but whats the point of even wanting to play a vampire in D&D? What normal party of people want to play with a character they know is an evil bloodsucking abomination?
Chimaera2000 05-14-07, 07:44 PM	....because deep down, he's just a nice, ordinary guy who wants to relax with a bottle of Type O at the end of the day?
HammerSmashed 05-16-07, 02:48 AM	Why is evrey campaighn a good one???? I mean wow that is boring as hell to always be the good guys.......
ElberethSilverleaf 05-17-07, 01:09 AM	Why is evrey campaighn a good one???? I mean wow that is boring as hell to always be the good guys....... Well maybe because most nonsociopathic people actually like being/playing the part of the hero. I'm not saying be the dull stick in the mud straightbacked paladin but a hero that people want to look up to. Most socially well adjusted people don't want to be a mass murdering bloodsucking undead beast. (of course in real life there is that minute subculture of so called "vampires" existing who dress all in black, wear black lipstick & nail polish and think it's cool to suck their friends blood and think Morrisey is god)
DarkRhystar 05-17-07, 02:41 AM	Well maybe because most nonsociopathic people actually like being/playing the part of the hero. I'm not saying be the dull stick in the mud straightbacked paladin but a hero that people want to look up to. Most socially well adjusted people don't want to be a mass murdering bloodsucking undead beast. Since when should someone be restricted by flavor? Out of all the elements in D&D, it is easily the most malleable and rewritable. Many problems are solved before they begin by simply going up to the DM and saying "I have this idea for a character; how can we make it work?"