Request - Sybilic Guardian [Archive] - Wizards Community

Request - Sybilic Guardian [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
erebfaer
03-21-07, 04:04 AM Could someone make me a playable version of the Sybilic Guardian in Complete Psionic? I would be very grateful :) .
Maraxus
03-21-07, 09:01 AM What do you mean with playable:
Format it so that it get's clearer and give it a LA, or make a version that is powered down enough to be played in an average game?

For the first option: Let's see, 9 outsider HD, and quite some Psi- and Spell-like abilities.

The biggest question when making that a playable Race is: Power Resistence and Ability manifester/caster levels: Scale or not scale with HD.

I'm generally pro scaling, therefor the PR would not be fix 20 but 11+HD total (racial + class), And likewise the Manifester level of the Psi-like abilities were the number of HD and not fix 9 (this can't be a coincident, that ML=HD).

However, this would be massively powerful. Specificly Ego Whip at will, that is allways argumented to the top. At some (epic) point or another, this will simply slay every opponents not properly immune (of course, immunities vs Mind-effects, or ability damage or Level 2 Psi-like ability get common so this is no tooo big problem.

Still, considering CR 10 is good.... 9 HD are allready paid for, thump rule would make LA +11, that does not work.

Looking at the Deva and the Trumpet Archon for ECL 20 Angels...

The low border are Rhakshasa and mind flayer, the Sibling Guardian is somewhat better (allready considdering the HDs), so LA +7 would be low end.

I'm somewhere between LA +8 and +9... and given that none of the special abilities are overwhelming, I would say +8 should be the better one.

So it would be ECL 17... *check* that's like a couatl... okay, And it's not so much better then the Rakshasa, that the 2 more HDs don't justify it, maybe I'd go even al low as +7 with the LA. ... And maybe I would make the CR more like 9 and not 10. :)
erebfaer
03-22-07, 07:03 PM What I wanted to do is have it changed so it would be balanced for a character around ECL 15 through use of LA and racial HD. This is not something I'm good at so I'll have to take your word for its balance.
Maraxus
03-24-07, 06:48 PM In that special case of the Syblic Guardian I agree, I usually have a good feeling for balance but with this one, I have no good idea. The problem is, that it has a lot of abilities that all demand somewhat LA and if you sum them all up, you get something big. But none of this abilities has that punch, to only remotely compete at the LA you would get, if you add them all up.

The best example is the Psi-like ego whip at will. (As I said the ability that is the hardest to judge)
If you wanted that ability on a Human, it would easily puch him to LA+3 (or a really, really strong +2) allown, however on a creature with LA +7 allready, the (lower) Ego whip is not worth that much.

Likewise the Power Resistence. You could allmost call a Power Resistence of 10+HD to a LA +10 character flavor.

So, let's get this ordered:

Type: Outsider [Lawfull] [Good] [Extraplanar] [Archon] [Psionic] (Wow, 5 Subtypes at once)

-Darkvision out to 60 feet.
-Must be ressourected using limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection.
-Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
-(In this case not proficient with armor or shields)
-Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish).

Darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision.
Aura of Menace (Su): A righteous aura surrounds archons that fight or get angry. Any hostile creature within a 20-foot radius of an archon must succeed on a Will save to resist its effects. The save DC varies with the type of archon, is Charisma-based, and includes a +2 racial bonus. Those who fail take a -2 penalty on attacks, AC, and saves for 24 hours or until they successfully hit the archon that generated the aura. A creature that has resisted or broken the effect cannot be affected again by the same archon’s aura for 24 hours.
Immunity to electricity and petrification.
+4 racial bonus on saves against poison.
Magic Circle against Evil (Su): A magic circle against evil effect always surrounds an archon (caster level equals the archon’s Hit Dice). (The defensive benefits from the circle are not included in an archon’s statistics block.)
Teleport (Su): Archons can use greater teleport at will, as the spell (caster level 14th), except that the creature can transport only itself and up to 50 pounds of objects. (Psilike in this case)
Tongues (Su): All archons can speak with any creature that has a language, as though using a tongues spell (caster level 14th). This ability is always active.

9 Outsider HDs

Ability Scores +8/6/10//6/6/10

DR 10/evil

Power Resistence 11+Level

NA 12

Psilikes:
At Will: Level 2 (Argu, weak), 2, 1, 2 (Argu strong), 1 (Argu weak)
3/day: Level 3 (Argu), 3 (Argu), 3
1/day: Level 5

Spell-likes:
At Will: Level 2, 2, 1, 0

And welll - that is it allready.

Let's count the abilities for themselves:
Outsider: +0.5 (Mainly the sleeplessness)
Archon traits: +2 (Immunities, circle vs. evil mainlly)
9 HDs à ~0.75 Levels each: -2.25
Ability Scores: +2.5
Power Resi: +1
Damage Reduction: +2 (Not easy to overcome, one per 5 is probably good)
Natural Armor: +2.1 (0.2 per point is okay, I guess)
Psi-likes: +2 for the at will +1 each for the 3/day together (a strong +1) and the 1/day (a weak +1)
Spell-likes: +1 easily.
-------------------
+12.85

As I've allready posted above, this would be to much. There needs to be a discount, because the diffrent points fit together very bad.

It looks like any attempt to methodically calculate the LA fail? Maybe the "I'd guess it's +7 or +8" from the first post is the best I can get?

Maybe a Monster class would be useful. Here one could also imagine some earlier exits for Lesser Sybs.

1: 1HD, Outsider Traits
2: Archon Traits
3: 2 HD: +1 NA, message at will
4: +2 NA, det. evil, det. psionics, mindlink each 3/day; aid, cont. flame, ego whip, det. hostile intent, brain look 1/day
5: 3 HD: +3 NA, +2 Con
6: +4 NA, +2 Cha, det. evil, det. psionics, mindlink each at will; aid, cont. flame, ego whip, det. hostile intent, brain look 3/day; disp. psi, ent. ectopl., fly each 1/day
7: 4 HD, +5 NA, +2 Str
8: +6 NA, DR 5/evil
9: 5 HD, +7 NA, +4 Con
10: +8 NA, +4 Cha, aid, cont. flame, ego whip, det. hostile intent, brain look 3/day; disp. psi, ent. ectopl., fly each 2/day
11: 6 HD, +4 Str/+2 Dex/+6 Con
12: +9 NA, +2 Int/+2 Wis/+6 Cha, disp. psi, ent. ectopl., fly each 3/day, second chance 1/day.
13: 7 HD, Power Resi 11+Level
14: +10 NA, DR 10/evil.
15: 8 HD: +6 Str/+4 Dex/+8 Con
16: +12 NA, +8 Str/+6 Dex/+10 Con/+4 Int/+4 Wis/+8 Cha
17: 9 HD: +6 Int/+6 Wis/+10 Cha

Lokking at it that way, +8 LA (that's what you have in the end) looks quite cheap, some of those levels seam like really good deals, none sounds too bad. The order is up to discussion, as are some details, I don't like yet. :)
Looking at the progression, for characters, the ability scores are allways hard to get.
About lesser versions, I'd say, that finishing the progression above at level 12 should have all essential abilities

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
erebfaer 03-21-07, 04:04 AM	Could someone make me a playable version of the Sybilic Guardian in Complete Psionic? I would be very grateful :) .
Maraxus 03-21-07, 09:01 AM	What do you mean with playable: Format it so that it get's clearer and give it a LA, or make a version that is powered down enough to be played in an average game? For the first option: Let's see, 9 outsider HD, and quite some Psi- and Spell-like abilities. The biggest question when making that a playable Race is: Power Resistence and Ability manifester/caster levels: Scale or not scale with HD. I'm generally pro scaling, therefor the PR would not be fix 20 but 11+HD total (racial + class), And likewise the Manifester level of the Psi-like abilities were the number of HD and not fix 9 (this can't be a coincident, that ML=HD). However, this would be massively powerful. Specificly Ego Whip at will, that is allways argumented to the top. At some (epic) point or another, this will simply slay every opponents not properly immune (of course, immunities vs Mind-effects, or ability damage or Level 2 Psi-like ability get common so this is no tooo big problem. Still, considering CR 10 is good.... 9 HD are allready paid for, thump rule would make LA +11, that does not work. Looking at the Deva and the Trumpet Archon for ECL 20 Angels... The low border are Rhakshasa and mind flayer, the Sibling Guardian is somewhat better (allready considdering the HDs), so LA +7 would be low end. I'm somewhere between LA +8 and +9... and given that none of the special abilities are overwhelming, I would say +8 should be the better one. So it would be ECL 17... check that's like a couatl... okay, And it's not so much better then the Rakshasa, that the 2 more HDs don't justify it, maybe I'd go even al low as +7 with the LA. ... And maybe I would make the CR more like 9 and not 10. :)
erebfaer 03-22-07, 07:03 PM	What I wanted to do is have it changed so it would be balanced for a character around ECL 15 through use of LA and racial HD. This is not something I'm good at so I'll have to take your word for its balance.
Maraxus 03-24-07, 06:48 PM	In that special case of the Syblic Guardian I agree, I usually have a good feeling for balance but with this one, I have no good idea. The problem is, that it has a lot of abilities that all demand somewhat LA and if you sum them all up, you get something big. But none of this abilities has that punch, to only remotely compete at the LA you would get, if you add them all up. The best example is the Psi-like ego whip at will. (As I said the ability that is the hardest to judge) If you wanted that ability on a Human, it would easily puch him to LA+3 (or a really, really strong +2) allown, however on a creature with LA +7 allready, the (lower) Ego whip is not worth that much. Likewise the Power Resistence. You could allmost call a Power Resistence of 10+HD to a LA +10 character flavor. So, let's get this ordered: Type: Outsider [Lawfull] [Good] [Extraplanar] [Archon] [Psionic] (Wow, 5 Subtypes at once) -Darkvision out to 60 feet. -Must be ressourected using limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection. -Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry. -(In this case not proficient with armor or shields) -Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision. Aura of Menace (Su): A righteous aura surrounds archons that fight or get angry. Any hostile creature within a 20-foot radius of an archon must succeed on a Will save to resist its effects. The save DC varies with the type of archon, is Charisma-based, and includes a +2 racial bonus. Those who fail take a -2 penalty on attacks, AC, and saves for 24 hours or until they successfully hit the archon that generated the aura. A creature that has resisted or broken the effect cannot be affected again by the same archon’s aura for 24 hours. Immunity to electricity and petrification. +4 racial bonus on saves against poison. Magic Circle against Evil (Su): A magic circle against evil effect always surrounds an archon (caster level equals the archon’s Hit Dice). (The defensive benefits from the circle are not included in an archon’s statistics block.) Teleport (Su): Archons can use greater teleport at will, as the spell (caster level 14th), except that the creature can transport only itself and up to 50 pounds of objects. (Psilike in this case) Tongues (Su): All archons can speak with any creature that has a language, as though using a tongues spell (caster level 14th). This ability is always active. 9 Outsider HDs Ability Scores +8/6/10//6/6/10 DR 10/evil Power Resistence 11+Level NA 12 Psilikes: At Will: Level 2 (Argu, weak), 2, 1, 2 (Argu strong), 1 (Argu weak) 3/day: Level 3 (Argu), 3 (Argu), 3 1/day: Level 5 Spell-likes: At Will: Level 2, 2, 1, 0 And welll - that is it allready. Let's count the abilities for themselves: Outsider: +0.5 (Mainly the sleeplessness) Archon traits: +2 (Immunities, circle vs. evil mainlly) 9 HDs à ~0.75 Levels each: -2.25 Ability Scores: +2.5 Power Resi: +1 Damage Reduction: +2 (Not easy to overcome, one per 5 is probably good) Natural Armor: +2.1 (0.2 per point is okay, I guess) Psi-likes: +2 for the at will +1 each for the 3/day together (a strong +1) and the 1/day (a weak +1) Spell-likes: +1 easily. ------------------- +12.85 As I've allready posted above, this would be to much. There needs to be a discount, because the diffrent points fit together very bad. It looks like any attempt to methodically calculate the LA fail? Maybe the "I'd guess it's +7 or +8" from the first post is the best I can get? Maybe a Monster class would be useful. Here one could also imagine some earlier exits for Lesser Sybs. 1: 1HD, Outsider Traits 2: Archon Traits 3: 2 HD: +1 NA, message at will 4: +2 NA, det. evil, det. psionics, mindlink each 3/day; aid, cont. flame, ego whip, det. hostile intent, brain look 1/day 5: 3 HD: +3 NA, +2 Con 6: +4 NA, +2 Cha, det. evil, det. psionics, mindlink each at will; aid, cont. flame, ego whip, det. hostile intent, brain look 3/day; disp. psi, ent. ectopl., fly each 1/day 7: 4 HD, +5 NA, +2 Str 8: +6 NA, DR 5/evil 9: 5 HD, +7 NA, +4 Con 10: +8 NA, +4 Cha, aid, cont. flame, ego whip, det. hostile intent, brain look 3/day; disp. psi, ent. ectopl., fly each 2/day 11: 6 HD, +4 Str/+2 Dex/+6 Con 12: +9 NA, +2 Int/+2 Wis/+6 Cha, disp. psi, ent. ectopl., fly each 3/day, second chance 1/day. 13: 7 HD, Power Resi 11+Level 14: +10 NA, DR 10/evil. 15: 8 HD: +6 Str/+4 Dex/+8 Con 16: +12 NA, +8 Str/+6 Dex/+10 Con/+4 Int/+4 Wis/+8 Cha 17: 9 HD: +6 Int/+6 Wis/+10 Cha Lokking at it that way, +8 LA (that's what you have in the end) looks quite cheap, some of those levels seam like really good deals, none sounds too bad. The order is up to discussion, as are some details, I don't like yet. :) Looking at the progression, for characters, the ability scores are allways hard to get. About lesser versions, I'd say, that finishing the progression above at level 12 should have all essential abilities