Post/Author/DateTime	Post
wids 10-05-07, 12:50 AM	hi we are starting a new high powered campaign where everyone is getting a bit silly with their races/templates. my question is: is there any limit (apart from common sense) on how many templates a creature can have (according to the rules)? just wondering as one player wants to play a half dragon/half ogre/werebear which will end up stronger than most gods.... note: im asking about the rules, not how utterly ridiculous and nonsensical a combonation might be (seriously try to work out the lineage on this one, it'll hurt you brain...) also do natural armour bonuses form templates/races stack? ie would you get the +4 natural armour from the half dragon AND the half ogre for a total of +8? and do amulets of natural armour stack with this too? cheers
locustechpriest 10-05-07, 12:55 AM	If the template says it *improves* the natural armor, then it will stack with what's there. Otherwise it will usually say something like "this or what's there, choose the largest". There is no limit to the number of templates, but they have to come in a certian order, for the most part. Since a dragon cannt be a lycanthrope, you need to figure something out with that...
wids 10-05-07, 02:01 AM	are there restrictions on what sort of creatures can become lycanthropes? (especially natural, not afflicted, lycanthropes)
wids 10-05-07, 02:03 AM	sorry to double post, but if half dragon changes a creatures type to dragon, and only humanoids and giants can become lycanthropes (according to the SRD), does this mean you cant have a half dragon lycantrope? cheers
locustechpriest 10-05-07, 02:04 AM	Yes, that is really your only limitation. Other than, of course, how you are going to explain all of this... but I trust you will figure something out. ;) EDIT: I'm guessing you are right on that last point.
wids 10-05-07, 02:06 AM	note: this is not my character. though mine is also ridiculous. but i think the half whatevers backstory so far is "he's mad" good times
locustechpriest 10-05-07, 02:33 AM	Consider with me for a moment the absurdidty of multiple halves. *cough* Now let me say: I think the intent is for half- templates to be taken only once. That aside, I don't think the curse of lycanthropy would affect dragonkin.
ToastedAmphibian 10-05-07, 02:43 AM	A male Half-Oger werebear raped a dragon. whats so hard to comprehend about that? Problem is, that would make him a quarter ogre. If one of his parents was an ogre, he would be a "Half ogre" but only if his other parent was a human. Half ogre is a race, not a template..... Regardless, if you manage to work that out somehow (Though im fairly sure its impossible) why would you go wereBEAR. A half-ogre is large size. your animal counterpart can be any animal within one size catagorey of you. Can anyone say "Weregiantcrocodile" or "Wereorca" or some other sutibly bizzar combination? The size of the middle form (not the animal or the creature, the other one whos name i cant rember) is the size of the the larger of the two, making him hugh instead of a measily "large". Tell him to go troll-weregiantcrocodile instead. or Oger-weregiantshark
locustechpriest 10-05-07, 02:49 AM	It's not difficult to imagine, but I just think the intent behind the half- templates is that only one be applied at a time. Also, even if the child would theoretically be a natural lycan, the rules would imply that those of the dragon type cannot.
ToastedAmphibian 10-05-07, 02:53 AM	Then i guess that makes him a half-lycan also...
locustechpriest 10-05-07, 02:56 AM	[...] Toad, I have known you to be a reasonable person in the past. What happened?
ToastedAmphibian 10-05-07, 02:57 AM	I still think the biggest problem is that you have a half-human-half-dragon-half-oger. Thats just bad math. If you wanted to somehow make a half-dragon-half-oger, you would have to use oger as teh base creature, then apply lycanthropy and half-dragon as inherited templates. Youd apply both at teh same time, so it dosnt seem TOO unreasonable. Its like when a werewolf becomes a vampire. Hes still a werewolf even though a vampire couldnt become a werewolf. It just makes him that much more freakish and weird. Your friend really needs to use an Ogre as the base creature though, and not a half ogre.
ToastedAmphibian 10-05-07, 02:58 AM	[...] Toad, I have known you to be a reasonable person in the past. What happened? :{ Well i thought it was funny.... Edit: and who ever said i was a toad?
ToastedAmphibian 10-05-07, 03:04 AM	Oger gives +10 str, +4 con were croc gives +16, and halfdragon gives +4 right? You end up with 18(Point buy right?)+10+16+4=48str. And your really really big, with wings. Hopefully thats good enough, you can now wrestle with your great great grandpa if you want (On your dragon side)
locustechpriest 10-05-07, 03:19 AM	Well, I did one of those military acronyms. You came out as ToA(d). So there you go. (Who says the military needs to make sense?) Anyway. That strength score is absurd. Could you armwrestle a god with that? If he isn't a god of strength (they can alter reality when it applies to feats of strenght, I think), could you win?
ToastedAmphibian 10-05-07, 03:32 AM	No, you could never win arm wrestling a god. Even if you best him in the challenge, you still lose.
BruceLeeroy 10-05-07, 03:43 AM	Tell him to scrap the half-dragon, half-ogre werebear. Tooo little for soo much. Instead, have him go Feral Half-Dragon Goliath Lolth-Touched frenzied berserker. +6 LA Instead of a +8LA and racial HD. Animal dice. The crappy dice. +24 STR just from the templates.
ToastedAmphibian 10-05-07, 03:46 AM	Mabey his dm dosnt like the feral template. Mabey he would feel bad for using something so poorly balanced (I would) And mabey he wants to be large, not just "almost large" mabey he wants to go war-hulk (hehe!)
vegetalss4 10-05-07, 03:52 AM	Oger gives +10 str, +4 con were croc gives +16, and halfdragon gives +4 right? You end up with 18(Point buy right?)+10+16+4=48str. And your really really big, with wings. Hopefully thats good enough, you can now wrestle with your great great grandpa if you want (On your dragon side) actuly half dragon gives +8 not +4 so the end result would be 52 not 48, and yes he could armwrestle a god and win. Maybe even a strength god.
ToastedAmphibian 10-05-07, 03:57 AM	If you consider makeing said god angry and vengefull "winning" then yes mabey you could.
Spikes01k 10-05-07, 05:32 PM	Everything works except for the half dragon, a half dragon is a dragon, not a giant or humanoid, and can not be a lycanthrope.
Sexy_ferret 10-05-07, 05:43 PM	But it could be the off spring of a Ogre werebear that mated with a pollymorphed Dragon and the werebear heritage carried onto its kin. Sorta makes sence. Also I believe he was saying Ogre was his base creature before adding in half dragon and werebear. Though I would replace ogre with troll ;)
Spikes01k 10-05-07, 06:10 PM	But it could be the off spring of a Ogre werebear that mated with a pollymorphed Dragon and the werebear heritage carried onto its kin. Sorta makes sence. Also I believe he was saying Ogre was his base creature before adding in half dragon and werebear. Though I would replace ogre with troll ;) There is no way for a half dragon to be a werebear. Ether your a half dragon first and try to get the werebear template and it dosn't work. Or your a were bear and the half dragon template is applied and the lycanthropy is eliminated. I personally would not allow it sense you would no longer meet the prerequisites for being a half dragon.
Archangel_Tyrael 10-05-07, 07:09 PM	Templates < Levels Usually.
locustechpriest 10-05-07, 07:32 PM	Spikes01k, you totally pinned down my opinion on the issue of lycanthropy. Even if the child would be cursed, the curse "fails" because dragons are not valid targets, if you will. Templates < Levels I'm not quite sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that LA from templates should be less than HD? If so, I take it that is an opinion or preference. I believe the OP was questioning if there are any official rules on the matter. Some unmodified races break that preference, anyway, like the drow who have +2 LA and no racial HD. Tell me if I got you wrong though.
Salla 10-05-07, 07:34 PM	Here's another issue ... Assuming he uses Ogre as the base creature ... That's 4HD and LA +2, for ECL 6. Add Werebear, 6HD and a LA of 2 (I'll assume he's afflicted, not a natural lycanthrope). That makes 10 HD + LA +4, making ECL 14. Then you add Half-Dragon, adding LA+3. That makes the character ECL 17 (assuming no class levels). Is everybody else playing 17th level characters?
locustechpriest 10-05-07, 08:04 PM	That makes the character ECL 17 (assuming no class levels). Is everybody else playing 17th level characters? While we are assuming, I see we are assuming a lycanthropic half-dragon can exist... that aside. I take it from the OP that everyone will have similarly powerful, probably low-epic or greater, characters.
BruceLeeroy 10-05-07, 08:56 PM	I'm not quite sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that LA from templates should be less than HD? If so, I take it that is an opinion or preference. I believe the OP was questioning if there are any official rules on the matter. Some unmodified races break that preference, anyway, like the drow who have +2 LA and no racial HD. Tell me if I got you wrong though. Today 03:09 PM I think he was saying that Class Levels are better than templates in most cases. He's right, too. The few exceptions come from things like retardo-strength builds for tripping the tarrasque, and even then, minimizing your LA is key.
locustechpriest 10-05-07, 09:11 PM	I think he was saying that Class Levels are better than templates in most cases. I see. I'm no expert, so I cannot contest that point, I guess.
Archangel_Tyrael 10-05-07, 10:35 PM	I think he was saying that Class Levels are better than templates in most cases. He's right, too. The few exceptions come from things like retardo-strength builds for tripping the tarrasque, and even then, minimizing your LA is key. This is what I meant. BruceLeeroy's name also reminds me that I bought 2 Bruce Lee movies today for $1 each, and I wanna watch them. Thank you, BruceLeeroy!
Disco 10-07-07, 10:13 AM	He is an half ogre, not an ogre, so everyone in party is level 18 and he is level 4 fighter (plus 14 levels of races and templates) The big issue I feel is that templates shouldn't stack (or be allowed to be combined) etc. Otherwise you have massively increased stat scores without paying the exponential costs associated with such stat scores (ie, a +6 is not three times better than +2, it is MUCH better) This character scored a critical hit with his two handed (keened!) axe and rolled under average and delivered 204 damage.
Archangel_Tyrael 10-07-07, 12:51 PM	He is an half ogre, not an ogre, so everyone in party is level 18 and he is level 4 fighter (plus 14 levels of races and templates) The big issue I feel is that templates shouldn't stack (or be allowed to be combined) etc. Otherwise you have massively increased stat scores without paying the exponential costs associated with such stat scores (ie, a +6 is not three times better than +2, it is MUCH better) This character scored a critical hit with his two handed (keened!) axe and rolled under average and delivered 204 damage. /shrug. So? The character has WAY below average Saves and a lower BAB than he would have if he would have taken levels in a class. Let us know what happens when he's fighting a flying dragon with 9th level spells. :P It may SEEM overpowered, but it's not really.
vegetalss4 10-07-07, 03:08 PM	i just checket it. a strength god is stronger. hercules and kord wins with 3 point and Thor is the master with 92 str beating all. And by the way a halfdragon lychantrope IS , i repeat IS possiple. But only natural. orger+ weresomething= weresomething orger+ half dragon = halfdragon weresomething orger Must be made in that order else is it illegal. this is because the rules for lychantrobe template is it can only be Applied to a humanoid or gaint NOT it can only be on a humanoid or gaint.
EvilVegan 10-07-07, 03:43 PM	"Lycanthrope" is a template that can be added to any humanoid or giant (referred to hereafter as the base creature). Type doesn't change, add shapechanger subtype. "Half-dragon" is an inherited template that can be added to any living, corporeal creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature). The creature’s type changes to dragon. Depends on order of addition. If you're born a half dragon and you get bit by a werewolf, no worries, you won't get lycanthropy ever (you're a dragon, it only infects human/giant) If the inherited lycanthrope template is "applied" in the womb before the half-dragon template is applied, then it works, but I can see no reason why a creature concieved as a half-dragon should even momentarily qualify as a humanoid or giant. The dragon subtype is a change to their standard type (human/giant) and overrides it instantaneously. In my opinion you would apply half-dragon first and lycanthrope wouldn't work. You could do some mendellian squares and get like 25% chance of one being a lycanthropic half-dragon ogre, maybe. Also it could depend on the mother. If the mother was a dragon, it wouldn't work (womb cures lycanthrope). All of these are suggestions though, it's up to the DM when to apply the templates.
Disco 10-08-07, 01:40 AM	"The character has WAY below average Saves and a lower BAB than he would have if he would have taken levels in a class." He has saves as high as everyone, true he took Crystal Mask of Mind Armour (plus the standard +5 vest of res) but the levels of bear and of fighter have given him reasonable saves. Plus, his AC is about 10 points higher than anyone else's. Also, I think it is pretty silly to "apply" a template first if they are both inherited. Surely they must be compatible with each other. You can't say that depending on the mother/father is depends on who you can go. This furthers my points that templates need to be defined clearer in 4e, I really feel that mixing and matching various templates (especially inherited templates) makes no sense.
EvilVegan 10-08-07, 08:49 AM	"The character has WAY below average Saves and a lower BAB than he would have if he would have taken levels in a class." He has saves as high as everyone, true he took Crystal Mask of Mind Armour (plus the standard +5 vest of res) but the levels of bear and of fighter have given him reasonable saves. Plus, his AC is about 10 points higher than anyone else's. Also, I think it is pretty silly to "apply" a template first if they are both inherited. Surely they must be compatible with each other. You can't say that depending on the mother/father is depends on who you can go. This furthers my points that templates need to be defined clearer in 4e, I really feel that mixing and matching various templates (especially inherited templates) makes no sense. I most certainly can say that it matters depending on which parent is the mother/father. Look at the differences between a liger and a tigon. A liger, the offspring of a male lion and a female tiger, resembles enormous lions with stripes. A tigon, the offspring of a female lion and a male tiger, resembles a small tiger with no stripes and the males have manes. The gender of the parents makes a huge difference in body structure, hormones are a major factor in development, and I can assure you that a dragon most likely has vastly different hormones than a human/giant lycanthrope. The gender of the offspring also determines a lot of traits. I wasn't talking about rules since in this case they are both inherited, I was talking about science and how the DM would need to determine the offspring's qualities. I was talking about hybrids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panthera_hybrid). But yes, clearer rules are a must!
Disco 10-09-07, 10:13 AM	Right, but if two things are incompatible it doesn't matter if the mother or father's species get swapped around.
vegetalss4 10-09-07, 11:52 AM	Right, but if two things are incompatible it doesn't matter if the mother or father's species get swapped around. thats you belief. i got an question. Why is it Lychantrobe that gets kicked out? why not half dragon?
locustechpriest 10-09-07, 10:26 PM	Lycan is a curse/disease. Half dragon is genetic. (If you say there are no genes in DnD, then I cannot help you.) The child becomes a dragon the moment it is concieved, and the curse cannot adhere to creatures of that type.
imakuni67 10-10-07, 12:37 PM	Templates < Levels Usually. Obviously....if you have that many templates you aren't going to have as many hit dice >.< Any spell of X HP or less you will die. With templates, you are also hampering your BAB and Saves. So what if your strength is 40+, a fighter of the same ECL would have 3 or 4 attacks instead of just one big one.
ToastedAmphibian 10-10-07, 09:29 PM	Half-giant Half-dragon is nonsensical, unless he somehow has 3 parents. Then you need to come up with a 1/3 giant 1/3 dragon 1/3 human template. Half-dragon Ogre works however. Lycanthropy is all well and good, but like i said, your WASTEING IT on werebear. The character is already large, so pick a huge animal! Besides, you would probably be better off with 10 lvls War Hulk and a weapon with the... Skilled? property. It makes you proficent with it and gives you a BAB that is equal to that of a cleric of your lvl, 10 lvls of war hulk gives you +20str and lets you attack every square within your reach as an attack action i belive.
Darth Sephiroth 10-11-07, 06:19 AM	If you want strength, start with a Feral, Half-Minotaur Goliath. Then you could make it a lycanthrope if you want (Or Half-Dragon) and going Barbarian. In a Gestalt game go with Warhulk from there on the side with the LA and go with a Frenzied Berzerker on the other.
Runningyellowstream 10-16-07, 08:55 PM	How the template combo works Father: Human Mother Ogre Child: Half-ogre Father: Half-Ogre (bitten by werewhatever) Mother: Dragon Child: 1/4ogre-1/2dragon-werewhatever tadaa! I also do childrens parties
locustechpriest 10-16-07, 10:39 PM	Wait, theoretically then, if your weresomething part-dragon can be a weresomething, so can an almost purebred drake with one hangnail of a humanoid somewhere in its best-forgotten past. Doesn't that kind of defeat the restriction? Or are you rolling with something like it requiring at least a majority/equal portion of legal blood? Yes, RYS, you did get an applicable lineage. That really doesn't matter to folk like me because template restrictions don't care about role-play reasoning. What it does effect is the actual process of combining creature and templates. Since werecreature is applied to humanoid and giant creatures (maybe mon-humies too, I don't recall), and it doesn't change types, I have gathered that no other type should end up with one, RAW. I am no RAW-slave though, so I am fishing for a reason that I find acceptable for such an exception. Forgive me if all of this sounds gruff, but you did make yourself sound cocky.
snakeman830 10-17-07, 10:12 PM	A half-dragon lycanthrope is quite legal, provided you applied them in the correct order. If half-dragon gets applied first, then no dice for lycanthropy. It won't happen. However, if lycanthrope comes first, then it is quite reasonable. It doesn't matter that the half-dragon template changes the type to dragon, BECAUSE IT DOESN'T REMOVE THE LYCANTHROPE TEMPLATE It doesn't overwrite anything, and the creature in question remains a lycanthrope. Another way to look at it is that, for example, the mother is a lycanthrope. This means that EVERY cell in her body is a lycanthrope cell, including any unfertilized egg cells. When the mother and a dragon get a little friendly, then the dragon genes get added. However, because the unborn child was a lycanthrope even before the half-dragon template was applied, it retains its lycan heritage. There, a good genetics-based explanation. After all, if Lycanthropy were only a curse, then it wouldn't be impossible to remove from natural lycans. Thus, it must be genetic as well.
locustechpriest 10-18-07, 05:38 PM	Yes, I suppose that is a nice explanation, but theoretically, anything can become a lycan now, so long as there is a long line of cursed mothers. Eventually exotic bloodlines will fade, and you have effectively full-blooded dragon lycanthropes. If the curse isn't at least diminished in a half-dragon, then it can easily exist in just about anything, and I see only a vague reason for it not to be able to infect them originally as well. See what I'm saying? It's not that I have something against half-dragon lycanthropes, they just imply certain possibilities that I don't see happening.
snakeman830 10-19-07, 08:23 PM	Yes, I suppose that is a nice explanation, but theoretically, anything can become a lycan now, so long as there is a long line of cursed mothers. Eventually exotic bloodlines will fade, and you have effectively full-blooded dragon lycanthropes. If the curse isn't at least diminished in a half-dragon, then it can easily exist in just about anything, and I see only a vague reason for it not to be able to infect them originally as well. See what I'm saying? It's not that I have something against half-dragon lycanthropes, they just imply certain possibilities that I don't see happening. Simple way to get past that: After the first generation, the lycanthropic genes are diluted enough they no longer are able to shift form or gain any benefits from their lycnthropic heritage. That's what the lycantrhope bloodline in Unearthed Arcana represents: Those with a lycan grandparent (or more distant) and don't have enough lycanthrope genes to actually change shape.
locustechpriest 10-19-07, 10:11 PM	There we go! Thanks for that, Snake, so that means a half dragon is about the furthest you can stray from afflictable stock. So it basically comes down to this: Afflicted reproduce sexually or by bite, Naturals reproduce by bite only, right? I am satisfied. ^_^
snakeman830 10-19-07, 10:24 PM	There we go! Thanks for that, Snake, so that means a half dragon is about the furthest you can stray from afflictable stock. So it basically comes down to this: Afflicted reproduce sexually or by bite, Naturals reproduce by bite only, right? I am satisfied. ^_^ Err, almost right. Naturals can still reproduce via intercourse as well as bite. Afflicteds can only reproduce via sex (MM says afflicteds can't pass on the curse of lycanthropy). All that my example requires is for the mother to be a lycanthrope, afflicted or natural doesn't matter.
locustechpriest 10-20-07, 02:41 AM	So, here's what I am getting. Half-lycan works fine (if it's from the mother), but quarter-lycan is meaningless 'cause they get nothing, did I get that now?
snakeman830 10-20-07, 08:23 AM	Pretty much. You may choose to give them a strong lycan bloodline, but they cannot actually have the template.