Saint too much for a +2? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Saint too much for a +2? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Aleolus
08-25-07, 12:07 AM OK guys, I love the Saint template, but don't you think it's a bit overpowered for a +2 level adjustment? I was just looking over it, and here's what it gets.

Size and Type: Type changes to Outsider with the Native subtype.

AC Bonus: You gain an insight bonus to your AC equal to your Wis modifier.

Special Attacks:
Holy Power: The save DCs of any and all of the Saints special attacks, including spells, spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities and extraordinary abilities increase by 2
Holy Touch: A Saint's entire body is suffused with holy powers, which likewise flow through any weapon the Saint wields. A Saint's melee attacks with any weapon (or unarmed) deal an additional 1d6 points of holy damage to evil creatures, and 1d8 points of holy damage to evil outsiders or undead. Any evil creature who strikes a Saint with a natural attack takes holy damage as though he had been hit by the Saint's attack.

Spell-Like abilities: At will, Guidance, Resistance, Virtue and bless. The Saint's caster level equals his Hit Dice, and save DCs are Cha based.

Special Qualities:
DR: A Saint gains DR based on their total Hit Dice, including character levels (5/magic at 4-7 HD, 5/evil at 8-11, and 10/evil at 12+)
Fast Healing: Each round, a Saint recovers hit points equal to one half his total Hit Dice (including character levels, max of 10)
Immunities: A Saint gains immunity to acid, cold, electricity and petrification attacks.
Keen Vision: A Saint gains Low-Light vision and Darkvision to 60 feet.
Protective Aura: As a free action, a Saint can surround him- or herself with a nimbus of light with a radius of 20 feet. This acts as a double-strength Magic Circle Against Evil and as a Lesser Globe of Invulnerability, both cast as though by a Cleric whose level equals the Saint's Hit Dice.
Resistances: A Saint has Fire Resistance 10, and a +4 racial bonus on saving throws against poison.
Tounges: A Saint can speak with any creature that has a language, as though using a Tounges spell cast by a 14th level Cleric.

Ability Scores: Con +2, Wis +2, Cha +4, on top of the base creature's adjustments.

Now, this seems a bit heavy for a +2 to me, might be deserving of a +3 instead. Anyone else have any opinions?
bobothechimp
08-25-07, 01:35 AM First, it's against the code of conduct to post copywritten material on the forums.

My opinion is that the requirements are steep enough to prevent all but a character that is the epitome of good to be able to become a saint, and it requires DM intervention to allow the template. It's not that overpowered.
Optimator
08-25-07, 01:49 AM The theory is that the steep entry requirements and the conduct requirements make up for the "low" LA.
Shedeo
08-26-07, 12:52 PM Even with its steep requirements, all that for level adjustment 2 is pretty rediculous. I'd say its at least around LA 4 because, just compare it to the half fiend. Its got better abilities overall, but its requirements are much higher. Its certainly far better than the half-dragon.
Templario
08-26-07, 01:28 PM Its certainly far better than the half-dragon.

Which is already underpowered. Medium half-dragons should get wings too to value his +3 LA :P
dman11235
08-26-07, 01:35 PM If you play with the heavy RP requirements, then no, it's fine the way it is. If you don't, then it is even more broken than Lolth Touched. The only way I ever will allow it is if the character who plans on becoming a saint is selfless enough to make that extraordinary sacrifice at any time. Even after they become a saint. Also, as stated earlier, the epitome of good.
DwarfPcfan
08-26-07, 01:42 PM Even with its steep requirements, all that for level adjustment 2 is pretty rediculous. I'd say its at least around LA 4 because, just compare it to the half fiend. Its got better abilities overall, but its requirements are much higher. Its certainly far better than the half-dragon.

I don't think it's a ridiculous as a +2 LA template for several reasons.

1-you never start a pc with that template, he has to earn it during game play. Being a saint is about proving you're up there with Mother Theresa, Jesus, St Francis of Assissi, etc. It's not about being good it's about being the goodest. A saint is supposed to be such a good person that fiends feel like they've just met a walking demon repellent. It's about being so infused with purity that the very world reaches out to that character for succor. That means no sane DM let's a pc take that template without long hours of RP and few people have it in them to play such a character.If a player can truly play a saint, he deserves the template

2-All of the requirements are in game devices: The requirements in exalted feats, performing a heroic sacrifice etc are game events. They should happen as the campaign progresses.

Seriously, +2 LA is just fine when compared to how much it costs to be a frigging saint!:weep:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Aleolus 08-25-07, 12:07 AM	OK guys, I love the Saint template, but don't you think it's a bit overpowered for a +2 level adjustment? I was just looking over it, and here's what it gets. Size and Type: Type changes to Outsider with the Native subtype. AC Bonus: You gain an insight bonus to your AC equal to your Wis modifier. Special Attacks: Holy Power: The save DCs of any and all of the Saints special attacks, including spells, spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities and extraordinary abilities increase by 2 Holy Touch: A Saint's entire body is suffused with holy powers, which likewise flow through any weapon the Saint wields. A Saint's melee attacks with any weapon (or unarmed) deal an additional 1d6 points of holy damage to evil creatures, and 1d8 points of holy damage to evil outsiders or undead. Any evil creature who strikes a Saint with a natural attack takes holy damage as though he had been hit by the Saint's attack. Spell-Like abilities: At will, Guidance, Resistance, Virtue and bless. The Saint's caster level equals his Hit Dice, and save DCs are Cha based. Special Qualities: DR: A Saint gains DR based on their total Hit Dice, including character levels (5/magic at 4-7 HD, 5/evil at 8-11, and 10/evil at 12+) Fast Healing: Each round, a Saint recovers hit points equal to one half his total Hit Dice (including character levels, max of 10) Immunities: A Saint gains immunity to acid, cold, electricity and petrification attacks. Keen Vision: A Saint gains Low-Light vision and Darkvision to 60 feet. Protective Aura: As a free action, a Saint can surround him- or herself with a nimbus of light with a radius of 20 feet. This acts as a double-strength Magic Circle Against Evil and as a Lesser Globe of Invulnerability, both cast as though by a Cleric whose level equals the Saint's Hit Dice. Resistances: A Saint has Fire Resistance 10, and a +4 racial bonus on saving throws against poison. Tounges: A Saint can speak with any creature that has a language, as though using a Tounges spell cast by a 14th level Cleric. Ability Scores: Con +2, Wis +2, Cha +4, on top of the base creature's adjustments. Now, this seems a bit heavy for a +2 to me, might be deserving of a +3 instead. Anyone else have any opinions?
bobothechimp 08-25-07, 01:35 AM	First, it's against the code of conduct to post copywritten material on the forums. My opinion is that the requirements are steep enough to prevent all but a character that is the epitome of good to be able to become a saint, and it requires DM intervention to allow the template. It's not that overpowered.
Optimator 08-25-07, 01:49 AM	The theory is that the steep entry requirements and the conduct requirements make up for the "low" LA.
Shedeo 08-26-07, 12:52 PM	Even with its steep requirements, all that for level adjustment 2 is pretty rediculous. I'd say its at least around LA 4 because, just compare it to the half fiend. Its got better abilities overall, but its requirements are much higher. Its certainly far better than the half-dragon.
Templario 08-26-07, 01:28 PM	Its certainly far better than the half-dragon. Which is already underpowered. Medium half-dragons should get wings too to value his +3 LA :P
dman11235 08-26-07, 01:35 PM	If you play with the heavy RP requirements, then no, it's fine the way it is. If you don't, then it is even more broken than Lolth Touched. The only way I ever will allow it is if the character who plans on becoming a saint is selfless enough to make that extraordinary sacrifice at any time. Even after they become a saint. Also, as stated earlier, the epitome of good.
DwarfPcfan 08-26-07, 01:42 PM	Even with its steep requirements, all that for level adjustment 2 is pretty rediculous. I'd say its at least around LA 4 because, just compare it to the half fiend. Its got better abilities overall, but its requirements are much higher. Its certainly far better than the half-dragon. I don't think it's a ridiculous as a +2 LA template for several reasons. 1-you never start a pc with that template, he has to earn it during game play. Being a saint is about proving you're up there with Mother Theresa, Jesus, St Francis of Assissi, etc. It's not about being good it's about being the goodest. A saint is supposed to be such a good person that fiends feel like they've just met a walking demon repellent. It's about being so infused with purity that the very world reaches out to that character for succor. That means no sane DM let's a pc take that template without long hours of RP and few people have it in them to play such a character.If a player can truly play a saint, he deserves the template 2-All of the requirements are in game devices: The requirements in exalted feats, performing a heroic sacrifice etc are game events. They should happen as the campaign progresses. Seriously, +2 LA is just fine when compared to how much it costs to be a frigging saint!:weep: