Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Theinsaneone 06-07-07, 08:42 PM	Im sorry, I know this sounds really stupid and nerdy...But I was wondering if anyone would have racial stats for a saiyan, and if you don't know what that is, its one of those monkey things from Dragonball Z....One of my players is really adamant on playing one... So, if anyone could help me out, that would be excellent.....Did I mention, she was a girl?
kaizer_soatze 06-07-07, 09:03 PM	Suree I can help you out if youre the DM how ever I wouldnt adivse it she'll cheat like theres no tommrow http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-691178 http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-689729 http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-707842 http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-708081 http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-691300 :)
Theinsaneone 06-07-07, 09:16 PM	Well, thanks a lot. I can work with this, make a few adjustments so she doesn't try to cheat.... :P
Mindolin 06-07-07, 09:50 PM	What I would do is use the Giff stats from Dragon 339 for full blooded saiyans, replacing firearm prof. with Improved Unarmed Strike, and using the Scro stats for a Half-Saiyan, replacing the bonus on attacks against Elves with 2 bonus power points. For a good class to do, I would suggest a varient Warblade, using the Unarmed Strike progression found on the Swordsage page, and also replacing the White Raven discipline with Desert Wind, as they are not good team players, but have the ki techniques and movement enhancers from that discipline. Of course, the Warblade and that are from Tome of Battle.
MushroomSpore 06-07-07, 10:27 PM	.....Did I mention, she was a girl? Care to explain why this is important? Did I mention I'm a girl too? :cool:
Theinsaneone 06-08-07, 10:27 AM	Well, its the first time that I've had a girl in one of my campaigns. And...Well, she just happens to be my significant other also... Thats why I brought it up..
MushroomSpore 06-08-07, 11:38 AM	Well, its the first time that I've had a girl in one of my campaigns. And...Well, she just happens to be my significant other also... Thats why I brought it up.. Still a pretty strange thing to be relevant, but eh. PS: Ellipses...are not...your...friend.........:D
Grizzled Gryphon 06-08-07, 08:56 PM	Still a pretty strange thing to be relevant, but eh. Oh, that can be SIGNIFICANTLY relevant. Only if you have a strong relationship would I reccomend letting a significant other play when you are DM. Anything bad happens to the character, and they are liable to think it has something to do with real life. I have seen it happen.
Cartigan 06-08-07, 09:10 PM	As a race, Saiyans wouldn't have the ability to fly or use ki attacks. That is a major problem with the Saiyan "race" in most of those links. Flying is a matter of channeling their ki and in order to channel ki for even simple attacks requires training, it isn't inherent. And at level one, the tail wouldn't even be prehensile. http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-708081 http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-707842 Those are the best, but it would be better to start from scratch taking into account what I said. I'd say that as a base Saiyans would be medium-sized humanoids with bonuses to Str and Con with negatives in Wis and Int. Maybe a Dex bonus. Have their tail be usable as a hand at higher levels. Give them bonuses in racial saves against poisons and diseases. Racial competence with unarmed strike, maybe a bonus on grappling. And the racial ability to change into an Oozaru in a full moon or synthesized full moon. Oozaru is huge or gargantuan chaotic evil magical beast with an energy breath weapon and some other stuff and increased strength and constitution and armor class. And no super saiyans.
bahamut920 06-09-07, 12:52 AM	Just off the top of my head from what I can remember of the the DBZ Sagas... Saiyan - +6 Str, +4 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha. Saiyans are physically powerful and rather tough, but most prefer fighting to education and lack people skills. - Saiyans are humanoids. (Depending on the campaign setting, you may rule that Saiyans originate on another plane of existence, making them extraplanar creatures) - Saiyans are Medium sized creatures. As Medium creatures, Saiyans have no bonuses or penalties due to size. - Saiyans have a base movement speed of 30 feet per round. A Saiyan may wear medium armor and/or carry a medium load without movement penalties. - Heavy Gravity Adaptation (Ex): Saiyans do not suffer ability penalties due to heavy gravity (remember, Planet Vegeta had gravity 10x that of Earth's), and to not suffer adjustment penalties for returning to normal gravity after having been in heavy-gravity locations for a long period of time. - Prehensile Tail (Ex): Saiyans have long prehensile tails that can serve as a third arm for the purposes of climbing, balancing, and carrying objects. The tail provides a +2 racial bonus to Balance, Climb, and Tumble checks. The saiyan does not recieve this bonus if he is carrying anything with his tail. A Saiyan may carry a third item and manipulate it as if it was being used in one hand. Also, a Saiyan may make unarmed attacks with this tail as if it were one of his arms. - Oozaru (Ex): A Saiyan transforms into a Colossal dire ape on sight of the full moon. At this point, the Saiyan normally rages uncontrollably, acting instinctively and aggressively towards any creatures in the area, including comrades. However, a Saiyan may make a Control Shape check to prevent the transformation or to retain lucidity during the transformation. The Control Shape DCs are given in the Monster Manual, under the Control Shape skill entry. Control Shape is considered a class skill for all classes a Saiyan takes. - Automatic Languages: Common and Saiyan. Bonus Languages: Abyssal, Giant, Goblin, Gnoll, Orc. (Substitute any appropriate "alien" languages if you wish) - Favored Class: Barbarian. A Saiyan's barbarian class does not count for the purposes of determining multiclass penalties. - Level Adjustment: +5. Saiyans are powerful creatures, and gain experience more slowly than humans. My thinking is that you make Super Saiyan (if you even allow it) an epic prestige class.
Cartigan 06-09-07, 01:15 AM	I think as an Oozaru, it should automatically enter a Frenzy as the Frenzied Berserker class ability but it can't be ended with a Will check. And Saiyans arn't able to prevent an Oozaru shape change, though they may be able to retain control, base it on some Will save. Since Saiyan isn't a class, why would Super Saiyan be a class? You would need some sort of class that teaches DBZ like chi usage, then maybe you could make Super Saiyan a prestige class.
bahamut920 06-09-07, 01:30 AM	I think as an Oozaru, it should automatically enter a Frenzy as the Frenzied Berserker class ability but it can't be ended with a Will check. And Saiyans arn't able to prevent an Oozaru shape change, though they may be able to retain control, base it on some Will save. We've never seen a Saiyan prevent the change; but the only ones who have transformed have been unskilled at it (Goku and Gohan, who have no Control Shape ranks) or wanted the transformation (such as Vegeta during the Saiyan Saga). I simply included the ability to prevent as an extrapolation that brings the race closer to the other races which use Control Shape (which was already in use for similar transformations - namely lycanthropes - who, despite size differences, mechanically work almost the same as the Saiyans in that transformation aspect). And your explanation of the Oozaru state being a frenzy makes sense. Since Saiyan isn't a class, why would Super Saiyan be a class? You would need some sort of class that teaches DBZ like chi usage, then maybe you could make Super Saiyan a prestige class. Well, I considered it being a template which could be acquired later, but epic prestige class seemed the better alternative, seeing as they don't get all of the bonuses of being Super Saiyan right away in the anime. They have to train to unlock its full potential.
Cartigan 06-09-07, 10:26 AM	We've never seen a Saiyan prevent the change; but the only ones who have transformed have been unskilled at it (Goku and Gohan, who have no Control Shape ranks) or wanted the transformation (such as Vegeta during the Saiyan Saga). He changed in artificial moonlight, then had his tail cut off and not grow back. The only way to prevent the change is remove the tail. I simply included the ability to prevent as an extrapolation that brings the race closer to the other races which use Control Shape (which was already in use for similar transformations - namely lycanthropes - who, despite size differences, mechanically work almost the same as the Saiyans in that transformation aspect). The Oozaru form is far more powerful than your standard werewolf transformation. And if we base on DB serieses, the Saiyan's can't prevent the transformation, but can try to end up in control of himself after changing, but that isn't even guaranteed. The only thing certain is that he changes.
Erato 06-09-07, 03:17 PM	Still a pretty strange thing to be relevant, but eh. I have to agree with that. Believe it or not, it's actually slightly annoing for us girls to be talked about as if our gender was a rarity, and something to be mentioned in every single conversation. I am one of many girls here who've deliberately chosen a gender-neutral, or even male name, in order to avoid being treated like an alien. Plus, it's also a very bad way to talk if you want more girls in your game, and it makes you sound just a little more nerdy ;)
MushroomSpore 06-09-07, 06:59 PM	Complete and utter truth. Thanks, I didn't have the heart to say it. :D
bahamut920 06-09-07, 08:16 PM	He changed in artificial moonlight, then had his tail cut off and not grow back. The only way to prevent the change is remove the tail. As far as we know it's the only way. I don't recall it ever being stated in as many words in the manga or the anime. I also figure that sometimes the character may wish to prevent the transformation (for example, in the middle of a peaceful meeting), and without that application of Control Shape, there is no method to prevent it. The Oozaru form is far more powerful than your standard werewolf transformation. And if we base on DB serieses, the Saiyan's can't prevent the transformation, but can try to end up in control of himself after changing, but that isn't even guaranteed. The only thing certain is that he changes. Agreed. But, the LA on lycanthropes is prohibitively expensive. If we were to make Saiyans a lycanthropic-type race, by the time the OP's player got a chance to play the character, the party would probably be epic levels. So, I'm nerfing the Oozaru form, and allowing the player an extra goodie because of it.
ishpu 06-09-07, 08:21 PM	the con adjustment would have to be huge.... who can stand up to a blow that can destroy a mountain? a saiyan can.
Cartigan 06-09-07, 08:37 PM	As far as we know it's the only way. I don't recall it ever being stated in as many words in the manga or the anime. I also figure that sometimes the character may wish to prevent the transformation (for example, in the middle of a peaceful meeting), and without that application of Control Shape, there is no method to prevent it. That's the point. The only way to prevent it is not be under the light of a full moon. Agreed. But, the LA on lycanthropes is prohibitively expensive. If we were to make Saiyans a lycanthropic-type race, by the time the OP's player got a chance to play the character, the party would probably be epic levels. So, I'm nerfing the Oozaru form, and allowing the player an extra goodie because of it. You arn't nerfing the form at all, and then are giving the Saiyans an unfair advantage to control their transformation. No chance to control the shape but have a Will save to remain in control.
Mindolin 06-09-07, 11:16 PM	I would advise just doing away with the Oozaru transformation, as it doesn't really help. What I suggest for super saiyan is both a template and a prestige class, since while they are unable to access all of it at first, they do still gain a bit. What I do for the Super Saiyan is just add a variation of the dragonspawn template from Dragonlance. Here's a link to what we have been able to get worked out: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=832979&highlight=Saiyan Let them just keep it and take an epic prestige class to further expand on the powers they've got.
Rebel581 06-10-07, 01:40 PM	Try the bloodline ability variant in Unearthed Arcana. Have Saiyan be a bloodline and they have to take levels in the bloodline at certain levels to unlock the Super Saiyan skills.
koiulpoi 06-10-07, 06:54 PM	"Guess what Kakarrot? I'm having you for lunch!" As it stands, the Saiyan race would need some serious nerfing to work in the D&D work. Super Saiyan I wouldn't be until at least epic levels. The higher stuff (Buu saga, for instance) would have to be level 40 or 50. We're talking about fighting a being that destroys hundreds of planets for fun.
Cartigan 06-10-07, 06:58 PM	"Guess what Kakarrot? I'm having you for lunch!" As it stands, the Saiyan race would need some serious nerfing to work in the D&D work. Super Saiyan I wouldn't be until at least epic levels. The higher stuff (Buu saga, for instance) would have to be level 40 or 50. We're talking about fighting a being that destroys hundreds of planets for fun. Even as early as the Saiyan saga, they could destroy the planet, just no one ever did it until Frieza on Namek. But they can't do anything without training, even in the Buu saga or GT. Saiyans do not have the racial ability to fly around and shoot laser beams, except as the Oozaru; they just have more aptitude for using ki.
AMGriffin 06-10-07, 07:17 PM	Yeah seriously. Piccolo blows up the Moon very early in DBZ, and he was absolutely nothing compared to some of the crap we see in later parts of DBZ.
Cartigan 06-10-07, 07:27 PM	And now that I think about it, turning Super Saiyan is not a natural racial ability, it is achieved through channeling ki properly.
AMGriffin 06-10-07, 11:04 PM	Yeah... Speaking of DBZ, though Saiyans may be too strong, what about the Nameks? They were stronger then humans, but not ridiculously so. A namekian is a plausible PC race I'd suspect.
Mindolin 06-11-07, 12:47 PM	It isn't that hard to have saiyans. Just use Giff and Scro for saiyans and half-saiyans. Just use Insectares for namekians. All the crazy things they do is because of class levels. A standard saiyan only seems so tough because they were sent to other planets to take over as babies. THat is a lot of experience they get. And the first time the moon was destroyed was in Dragon Ball, with the second time in DBZ. They do it quite often, and the first planet to be destroyed (at least in the anime) was Arlia.
bahamut920 06-11-07, 12:52 PM	Well, considering the power levels (pun intended) of the Dragon Ball Z anime, it's a valid guess to say that the characters were epic (in D&D terms) well before the start of the anime. Probably somewhere around the middle of Dragon Ball. I wouldn't be suprised if statting out Goku from the end of the anime turned out to be level 100 or so. Now, about Saiyans being too strong of a race, consider that what you're thinking of is an adult Saiyan, born and raised on Planet Vegeta, with a bunch of levels of fighter or whatever class the Saiyans like. A PC Saiyan would probably be closer to Goku at the beginning of Dragon Ball - strong and tough, but nowhere near invincible. Without the Oozaru transformation, I'd give them a total LA of +3 or so. Maybe not even that much, because as I see, it, half-dragons have the edge over them in pure power. Nameks are interesting. I'd give them a small Con bonus - maybe +4 or so - +2 Wis, and maybe -2 Cha (they don't seem to be very social creatures). Maybe give them a wholeness of body-like racial ability and the aberration (their physiology is pretty strange; molluscan humanoids) or monstrous humanoid type. The rest is all strange prestige classes.
Cartigan 06-11-07, 06:37 PM	Namekians would have Int and Wis bonuses probably both taken out of Charisma. And they have regeneration. Uber regeneration.
KurenaiYami 06-11-07, 06:41 PM	and it makes you sound just a little more nerdy ;) We're on a Dungeons & Dragons board discussing Dragonball Z...and we can sound MORE nerdy? What has science done?!
jboy8 06-11-07, 09:15 PM	I have to agree with that. Believe it or not, it's actually slightly annoing for us girls to be talked about as if our gender was a rarity, and something to be mentioned in every single conversation. I am one of many girls here who've deliberately chosen a gender-neutral, or even male name, in order to avoid being treated like an alien. Plus, it's also a very bad way to talk if you want more girls in your game, and it makes you sound just a little more nerdy ;) you go girl :P
Freefall 06-12-07, 07:55 AM	Even as early as the Saiyan saga, they could destroy the planet, just no one ever did it until Frieza on Namek. But they can't do anything without training, even in the Buu saga or GT. Saiyans do not have the racial ability to fly around and shoot laser beams, except as the Oozaru; they just have more aptitude for using ki. Actually, I would say that is enough to warrant having them as racial abilities. I can't think of a single adult saiyan that couldn't do either. Goku's father could, and he was supposedly more of a scientist than a fighter. Brolly's father could as well, and he didn't seem like anything special either. On top of that, Vegeta was shown to vaporize a small rodent when he was just a little kid, and Goku learned the Kamehameha wave extremely quickly when he was a little kid. This makes me think that in any sort of ordinary Saiyan upbringing they would develope these powers naturally by adulthood, if not in adolescence (or possibly even earlier). I mean, Elves get bonuses with a bunch of weapons as racial abilities, but that has as much or more to do with their culture and upbringing than some weird genetic predisposition. I'm not sure how powerful Namek's would be, aside that I agree they would get wisdom and intelligence bonuses, whereas saiyans would be purely physical. However, from what I recall (though it has been quite a while), the bunch of Nameks that got in a fight with Freeza's goons all had power levels of around 1300, which would make them a little stronger than Raditz, who was pretty damn powerful already (from a human perspective). But then, the Freeza saga is really where power levels started breaking down and only became useful for telling who is stronger than who (kind of like D&D intelligence scores above 25 aren't really useful for figuring actual IQs). I'm not sure about their regeneration. In DBZ they can be killed without too much trouble by just inflicting tons of damage on them, which isn't possible with D&D regen unless a special type of attack is used. Namek's basically just have the ability to instantly grow back lost limbs, but they have to concentrate on it for a second. Of course, in D&D there are no rules for removing limbs in the first point, so that ability would be kind of moot. Maybe give them fast healing to compensate? I mean, if you did give them regen, what would be the types of attacks that overcome it? Oozaru is probably best to just ignore. Saiyans are hard enough for people to balance without giving them a once-a-month "I win" card. Even Akira Toriyama decided it would be better to just drop that aspect of them. Aside from that, I think part of the problem with making a Saiyan race is that what makes them so impressive isn't just that they are super strong, but the rate at which they gain strength. If you think about it, at the end of the Saiyan Saga, Krillin was much stronger than Goku had been at the begining. However, in the same amount of time Goku makes himself more than 10x stronger than he started off (and that's without the Kai-O Ken attack). In D&D the only real way to represent this would be like making them need only a fraction of the normal amount of XP to gain levels. But of course, this would be rediculously unbalancing and defeat the purpose of assigning any sort of LA to them. Unless everyone in the group was a Saiyan, this wouldn't really be a feasible way to run things. So I guess, really what it comes down to is, what kind of LA do you want them to have? As shown in the DBZ series, I think even Raditz, one of their weakest specimens, would have a strength significantly higher than 18. But if you really want to stick them into your campaign at pre-epic levels, you could probably get away with giving them ability score adjustments on the order of Trolls or even Ogres, with a few extra powers tacked on. But please, please don't try to come up with a non-epic Super Saiyan class or template. That really would defeat the entire purpose of what a super saiyan is. It would kind of be like making a Great Wyrm dragon that's only CR 10.
Cartigan 06-12-07, 08:08 AM	Actually, I would say that is enough to warrant having them as racial abilities. That is irrelevant. All creatures have the ability to channel ki. Gohan teaches Videl to fly and she is a normal human. Any idiot can fly in DBZ as long as they learn to channel their ki properly. As well as any idiot can learn to blast laser beams everywhere, ie Krillin and Yamcha. Krillin in fact has one of the deadliest attacks in DB - those destructo disks. You would think with the power that something that can just cut stuff up has in DB, more people would develop the ability to do it. Goku's father could, and he was supposedly more of a scientist than a fighter. Brolly's father could as well, and he didn't seem like anything special either. On top of that, Vegeta was shown to vaporize a small rodent when he was just a little kid, and Goku learned the Kamehameha wave extremely quickly when he was a little kid. Which only proves what I said - they are racially adept at learning to channel their ki. This makes me think that in any sort of ordinary Saiyan upbringing they would develope these powers naturally by adulthood, if not in adolescence (or possibly even earlier). Goku couldn't do anything but jump around and beat the crap out of stuff until he started training under Roshi. Aside from that, I think part of the problem with making a Saiyan race is that what makes them so impressive isn't just that they are super strong, but the rate at which they gain strength. Yeah, I would assume the main race in the universe that the series focused on would be the all powerful destroyers of world real easy like.
Erato 06-12-07, 12:03 PM	We're on a Dungeons & Dragons board discussing Dragon ball Z...and we can sound MORE nerdy? Of course you can, this is the Internet :P Besides, the way male nerds talk about girls is one of the tell-tale signs of whether they are the “I’m freaking intelligent, have weird hobbies, and don’t care what other people think” kind of nerd :cool: , or the “:surrender none of the other kids wanted to play with me” type:allalone:And most people consider the latter more ‘nerdy’. In fact, I would go as far as to say that if there is a way to appear creepier and more geeky than to write a piece of erotic Star Trek furry fanfic with yourself as the main character, it is to write a piece of erotic Star Trek furry fanfic with yourself as the main character – and then make a special point to explain that there is actually a girl in the story too.
bahamut920 06-12-07, 01:13 PM	...Okay, let's just agree that the fact the OP's player is a girl was irrelevant info and get back to the point of the thread. Namely, the creation of a Saiyan race. Because this argument is irrelevant to the thread as well. ...they are racially adept at learning to channel their ki. In order to do that, we would have to create a class for that and then give them a bonus related to the mechanics of that class. Something like the psionic races that get extra power points, or the incarnum races with essentia points. Or maybe we could create a new martial discipline, and give them a bonus to maneuvers or something. And, perhaps, the only way to handle the Oozaru transformation is to rule that PCs can't do it, or that the moons of the D&D world don't trigger it. But please, please don't try to come up with a non-epic Super Saiyan class or template. That really would defeat the entire purpose of what a super saiyan is. It would kind of be like making a Great Wyrm dragon that's only CR 10. I think we're all in agreement that the Super Saiyan class/template is an epic item. We just don't agree over what it should do or be...
Freefall 06-12-07, 02:37 PM	That is irrelevant. All creatures have the ability to channel ki. Gohan teaches Videl to fly and she is a normal human. Any idiot can fly in DBZ as long as they learn to channel their ki properly. As well as any idiot can learn to blast laser beams everywhere, ie Krillin and Yamcha. Krillin in fact has one of the deadliest attacks in DB - those destructo disks. You would think with the power that something that can just cut stuff up has in DB, more people would develop the ability to do it. I'm not sure if just anyone can. Certainly, the vast majority of earthlings are just ordinary people and never learn such abilities, or demonstrate any real capacity for it. Videl is exceptionally strong and talented from the begining, and she never learns to fire ki blasts, and only learns to fly well into her teen years. Yamcha, Krillin, and Tien don't develope such abilities until they are already adults, and they are considered some of the most gifted and powerful humans to have ever lived. Master Roshi is virtually a legendary character in Dragon Ball, and it took him 50 years to develope the kamehameha wave. Goku mastered it in what, a couple of weeks? At age 5. That's an ENORMOUS aptitude difference. In fact, in Goku's case he wasn't even formally taught, he just observed it and figured out how to do it himself. With Goku as an example, even if other saiyans don't pick up as fast as he does, I think it is reasonable to assume that they don't necessarily need to be formally instructed in order to fly and shoot energy blasts, they just need to know it's possible and will eventually develope these abilities for themselves. Which only proves what I said - they are racially adept at learning to channel their ki. If they are racially adept at something, how is that not a racial trait? Goku couldn't do anything but jump around and beat the crap out of stuff until he started training under Roshi. Um, he was like 5 years old when he started training with Roshi. I'm pretty sure that racial traits are something developed by adulthood, not something they are necessarily born with. Humans aren't born with the ability to speak common, and elves aren't born with the ability to shoot longbows and swing longswords. But they can be reasonably expected to possess these skills by adulthood, given a relatively standard upbringing. That was another point I made that you seemed to ignore: upbringing. Goku didn't get a normal Saiyan upbrining. He was basically tossed into the wilderness as an infant. He didn't even find out he wasn't human until after he had started a family. A human infant tossed into the wilderness isn't going to develope the ability to speak, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be considered a racial trait, because raised in a normal human society, children will figure it out, to some extent, for themselves. In a normal Saiyan society, flying and energy blasts will be so common as to be taken for granted. If Goku could figure out ki blasts from a single demonstration, at age 5, then I think it is entirely reasonable that a normal saiyan child seeing multiple demonstrations since birth would develope these abilities on their own by adulthood.
Erato 06-12-07, 03:56 PM	...Okay, let's just agree that the fact the OP's player is a girl was irrelevant info and get back to the point of the thread. Namely, the creation of a Saiyan race. Because this argument is irrelevant to the thread as well. Relax, I was just answering a question and giving the boy a piece of advise far more useful than anything people could say about saiyan stats. Besides, if he had said: “Did I mention the player is black?” people would be falling over each other to condemn him (not that we girls are mad at him ;) ). About the stats, I think the most ‘authentic’ solution would be to make a racial class, going from level 1 to whatever level you plan to stop. Of course this will be hard work, but you would need to make a special flying, ki-blasting class/prestige class for the concept anyway.
Mindolin 06-12-07, 05:41 PM	I think that, while the saiyans have great skill in learning how to use ki, it shouldn't be a racial ability, except perhaps in favored class, since they weren't originally powerful enough to defeat the truffles, and they were some pretty pitiful creatures. They need an occurence that multiplied their power by ten to overthrow a race that needed science to make up for their lack of fighting skill. Remember, also, that it isn't fair to compare all saiyan children to either Goku or Vegeta. Goku wasn't typical because, if I remember right, he had a bit of training from Grandpa Gohan before meeting Roshi and gaining the rest of the training that gave him either the psionic power or Ki Blast feat. Also, as for Vegeta, he was born with a higher power level, and received training from the general of the Saiyan army.
Cartigan 06-12-07, 06:06 PM	I'm not sure if just anyone can. Certainly, the vast majority of earthlings are just ordinary people and never learn such abilities, or demonstrate any real capacity for it. Because there is no need to focus on every single person in the world or have every single person train in DB martial arts. Videl is exceptionally strong and talented from the begining, So are Chi-Chi and her dad - Chi Chi trains Goten when Gohan and Goku are away, at like 45. I don't recall Chi-chi ever even learning to fly. Yamcha, Krillin, and Tien don't develope such abilities until they are already adults, Krillin trained with Goku under Roshi and was in fact younger than Goku. Yamcha was an accomplished fighter in his teen years in DB then trains under Roshi. Nothing is known about Tien's life before the Tenkaichi Budokai. Goku mastered it in what, a couple of weeks? At age 5. Goku was older than 5. He didn't even start training under Roshi until 12 years after he was found by Gohan. And the energy blasts are actually the weakest attacks in DB, the cutting energy discs are more powerful. If they are racially adept at something, how is that not a racial trait? I have good stamina, am I automatically able to swim a mile?
koiulpoi 06-12-07, 06:46 PM	I have good stamina, am I automatically able to swim a mile? Your point being? He was saying that there should be a racial trait related to their ability to do things. This could be easily surmised by having a racial class.
Cartigan 06-12-07, 07:05 PM	Your point being? He was saying that there should be a racial trait related to their ability to do things. This could be easily surmised by having a racial class. Not a racial ability of flight or shooting laser beams. It doesn't matter if I have 50 Con, it doesn't help me swim if I never learn how.
koiulpoi 06-12-07, 10:32 PM	Not a racial ability of flight or shooting laser beams. It doesn't matter if I have 50 Con, it doesn't help me swim if I never learn how. That's because swim is based off of Strength... I'm sure you're trying to make some witty point, but I'm really not seeing it. Saiyans probably shouldn't just get a racial fly speed (for instance), but advanced (hitdie) saiyans should. Probably.
Mindolin 06-12-07, 11:26 PM	Just use the optional rule from one of the older issues of Dragon that a character above level 10 gains a fly speed. That way they learn how to fly, and then make feats to improve upon the skill. For example, before encountering Radditz, Goku only had the base ability to fly, and thus used the Nimbus, as it was faster. Piccolo, however, had no such cloud, and thus was forced to take a few feats to improve his flight.
Cartigan 06-13-07, 08:14 AM	That's because swim is based off of Strength... But you have to have a constitution score to not drown. I'm sure you're trying to make some witty point, but I'm really not seeing it. Saiyans probably shouldn't just get a racial fly speed (for instance), but advanced (hitdie) saiyans should. Not if they wern't trained to fly. No one is able to just float around without training, not even the Namekians. I guess for simplicity you could do what Mindolin said, but even without natural fly, they would still be a ridiculously powerful race.
Ecureuil_Diabolique 06-13-07, 02:14 PM	God, I haven't watched DBZ in a long while, but I would probably say for simplicity's sake make them LA +0 then make them a bunch racial feats for the other stuff. It should be toned down so that it's viable for character creation, but still be able to keep most of the flavor.
asteroth16 06-17-07, 02:44 PM	for nameks i think id give them +2 con +2 wis +2 int (maybe) -4 Cha 2 bonus powerpoints favored class: psychic warrior fast healing 3 regenration (sonic overcomes, think how lord slug was defeated) and even though medium creatures a reach of 10ft to reflect the arm stretching. maybe an LA of 4 and to deal with there fusion techniques, a feat that when one namek would die if he is willing may permanently psionically fuse with another namek
Freefall 06-19-07, 04:10 AM	Because there is no need to focus on every single person in the world or have every single person train in DB martial arts. My point was that for humans it is actually pretty rare, whereas for Saiyans it seems pretty common. So are Chi-Chi and her dad - Chi Chi trains Goten when Gohan and Goku are away, at like 45. I don't recall Chi-chi ever even learning to fly. Nor did Mr. Satan, despite some rudimentary efforts to teach himself to do so. Or Yajirobe, for that matter. But the fact that all these humans, even being extraordinary, never learned to fly is more of a point against you. Krillin trained with Goku under Roshi and was in fact younger than Goku. Yamcha was an accomplished fighter in his teen years in DB then trains under Roshi. Nothing is known about Tien's life before the Tenkaichi Budokai. I didn't watch a lot of the original DB show, but as far as I can tell, Krillin didn't learn how to use energy attacks until much later than Goku. Yamcha would obviously have to have learned these abilities at a much later age than Goku, and I'm pretty sure Tien did as well. Goku was older than 5. He didn't even start training under Roshi until 12 years after he was found by Gohan. And the energy blasts are actually the weakest attacks in DB, the cutting energy discs are more powerful. Hm, you're right about his age. I guessed I was assuming he was younger because he looked pretty much the same as Gohan when the Saiyans showed up. That's a helluva growth spurt Goku weant through. Still, that doesn't really negate my point. I'm arguing that Saiyans, under normal circumstances, should develope these abilities by adulthood as a matter of course. The fact that Goku developed these in what was effectively a desolate wilderness, with no formal training in such powers, before he even reached his teen years, supports this idea, regardless of if he was actually 12 or 5 when he did it. You might also notice that no one has actually been killed by the energy discs. In fact, they seem to be relatively easy to avoid. I think that they only times they ever scored a solid hit on something was when Freeza was being an idiot and cut his own limbs off (but still didn't die), and when Cell was completely ignoring Krillin and didn't try to dodge (and in which case, the disc had absolutely no effect on him). I have good stamina, am I automatically able to swim a mile? No, but I bet you didn't learn to swim just by spending a few minutes watching other people swim. Goku learned to shoot energy beams just by watching Roshi. He didn't even have any of the principles explained to him. I think that's a pretty clear-cut case of immense natural ability. Now, I'm curious as to what you think something needs to be to be considered a racial ability. I've mentioned the racial porficiencies Elves get a couple of times, and you never bring that up. Dwarves and others get similar racial benefits, but as I've said before, I'm pretty sure that these are abilities that are a combination of natural ability and cultural upbringing, not things that would necessarily still develope even if they were abandoned in the wilderness to be raised by apes from infancy. In fact, the dwarf and gnome entries for racial bonuses against certain enemies (giants/kobolds respectively) specifically refer to specialized training. So the idea is that this special training is so standard to their societies that you can reasonably expect virtually all dwarves who underwent at least a somewhat standard dwarven childhood to have learned, by adulthood, how to fight giants effectively, and similarly ordinary gnomes will have learned how to fight kobolds, and ordinary elves will have gained basic skill with longswords and longbows. And keep in mind that the write-ups for races are normally for adult members of the species, not children or adolescents. By all of this, and by the fact that Goku could learn ki-blasts without actually being taught, I feel it is completely reasonable to expect an ordinary Saiyan to develope ki blasts and flight by the time they reach adulthood. So far your only argument against these being racial abilities is that they have to be learned. But humans need to learn how to walk upright and speak, and the elf, dward, and gnome write-ups indicate that training can sometimes be considered a racial trait if it is a universal thing. So basically, the simple fact that they need to "learn" these abilities is not enough to keep it from being a racial trait. If you really want to argue that, then I think you would need to demonstrate that either it requires a lot of vigorous training to develope and doesn't really come naturally to them at all (which is pretty clearly untrue), or that it is not at all an ordinary part of Saiyan upbringing (which I think has a little more room for argument, but not by much). That, or you must have a very different idea of what can qualify as a racial ability than myself (or the PHB).
Prime32 06-19-07, 01:29 PM	The most repeated racial ability of the Saiyans is that their "power increases ten-fold after recovering from a mortal wound". Now, if you increase the energy of say, an explosion by ten times, the damage might only be doubled. In Dragonball GT, it is revealed that after a Saiyan is exposed to a specific attack, his body will develop a resistance to it. The first time Suu Shenron fires his solar attack at Goku, it hurts, but the second time it's pretty much ineffective. The closest equivalent to this in D&D is the Learned Spell Immunity ability of the infernal - that's an epic creature and half-god. While fighting another one of the evil dragons in GT, Goku copies its spinning tornado defence thing, transforming his lower body into a tornado. However, Saiyans are not the only ones who can copy techniques. Tien could copy the Kamahamaha with his third eye, which also allowed him to track Goku's high-speed movements (for a more modern comparison, think Sharingan - Tien never uses his third eye after the fight) and Buu copied both the Kamahamaha and Instant Transportion, though he never even got a good look at the latter. Cell should be able to copy techniques easily, since he has Saiyan DNA, but if memory serves, he had to cut Goku and take some DNA to use Instant Transportation. He was, however, able to produce a bulking-up effect similar to an Ultra Super Saiyan transformation as Perfect Cell, and his aura resembles a Super Saiyan aura. In DBZ, it seems that to see a fast-moving enemy, you must be able to move at least as fast. Remember how easily Mr. Popo beat up Goku in DB? That was because Mr. Popo could predict Goku's movements. In DBZ, every character can do this, making it impossible for a normal person to even touch them unless they want them to. This could be represented as a paired attack/AC bonus similar to that for small size. For saiyans, you could use Goliaths (Races of Stone). Oozaru use the Mountain Rage barbarian variant, with feats to increase size further (when Gohan was transformed by the moon hologram of Goku's damaged pod, for a while he merely had red eyes and greater strength). The "mortal wound" thing is impossible to implement - I don't understand why Saiyans in the series didn't regularly beat themselves to death (Vegeta, as the smartest living saiyan, did it once). The movement prediction thing is largely glossed over, and would make DBZ-style characters too powerful (yes, I know what I just said).