Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Theinsaneone 01-23-08, 05:29 PM	All right. Here is my near final revision of my template for the saiyan crossover. THE TRUE SAIYAN +2 STR +4 CON -2 WIS -2 CHA Base land speed 40 ft. Damage Reduction 2/-- Saiyans are strong, but what makes them unique to most other races, is their incredible endurance and toughness. Also their size ranges from a multitude of sorts; it is not uncommon to find a giant among their race. But even the smaller and compact ones are very tough and powerful. Most saiyans' heights range from the lower 4 ft, up to 8ft tall. Size category is limited to small or medium. Though they are very strong and robust, they tend to be very dirty and unkempt outside of civilized areas and are usually very hot headed in some situations. All saiyans have a powerful build; Saiyans are also born with a brown 'monkey-like' tail. This is the source of a saiyan's power, and also their biggest weakness. If a saiyan's tail is grabbed, they are put into an incapacitated state of pain. Their physical ability scores immediately drop to 3 and are incapable of movement. They can still speak, however. When their tail is let go, they must make a Fort save (DC20), or be shaken for 3 rounds before their scores return to normal. LA +2 Saiyan Paragon Table HD: D8 Level Base attack bonus Fort Ref Will Special 1 + 0 +2 +0 +0 Improved Unarmed Strike, Monk damage progression (+1 Size category) 2 + 1 +3 +2 +0 Weapon Focus (Unarmed) 3 + 2 +3 +2 +0 Intense Training Improved Unarmed Strike: Saiyans are natural born fighters, and because of this they can choose to deal lethal or non-lethal with their hands or feet, just like a monk. Monk Damage Progression: A saiyan’s class level determines how much damage they can deal with unarmed attacks. Refer to the table given in the player’s handbook. A Saiyan uses the damage progression as though they were a size category larger. A medium would be use the large, and small would use the medium. The Saiyan Paragon levels stack with Monk levels to determine damage. Weapon Focus (Unarmed): A Saiyan becomes very adept at using unarmed attacks as they grow. They gain Weapon Focus (Unarmed) as a feat, giving them a +1 to all unarmed attacks. Intense Training: Every Saiyan is born with a special ability to learn from their fights making them more powerful, even if they lose, or come close to death. When a Saiyan is brought to below 1/10 of his maximum HP by an opponent of equal or greater strength, and then healed to full health gains extra experience from the encounter. The Saiyan’s body adapts and evolves after every fight, making them very deadly and unique among other races. The table below shows how much experience a Saiyan gains from such encounters. (Note: The experience can only be given AFTER the encounter. And the experience is rewarded even if they Saiyan loses or becomes unconscious.) CR over PC Exp. Bonus CR +1 105% CR +2 111% CR +3 118% CR +4 126% CR +5 136% CR +6 150% CR +7 180% CR +8 210% CR +9 240% CR +10 300% This training also allows the Saiyan to shrug off their tail weakness a little easier. Instead of their stats immediately dropping to 3, they must make a Fort Save (DC 15) or the effects happen. If they make the save then they are not affected, and function normally. This lasts for 3 rounds before the tail can be grabbed again. All right. Tell me what you all think. Please. Any critique is welcome.
Edymnion 01-23-08, 06:26 PM	Why do they have DR as a racial ability? There is no indication that their ability to take punishment is a racial ability, just that they're all high enough level to be that badass. Goku could be injured by things like guns and knives as a child, and even as an adult he could be hurt by simply throwing a rock at him when he wasn't paying attention (Krillian does this just before the Cell games). Why do they have powerful build? Saijins are now shown using oversized weapons, nor are they show to be any better at grappling than anyone else. Powerful Build doesn't increase their size for purposes of unarmed damage, that I know of, so it seems out of place. Why do they have such a high base speed? Saijins aren't shown to be any faster than normal humans as a racial thing, its the fact that most of the ones shown have crazy high levels in Monk that increase their speed. Why do they get xp boosts like that? Yeah, they get more powerful by being defeated, that should reflect a percentage of xp for the encounter earned even if they lose the fight, not bonus xp for winning one. And you are aware that by the time you get to CR +10 over your level, the rule is that you don't get any xp for the encounter at all, right? Because that lopsided of a match can really only be won by the DM letting you win, or a complete fluke, either way it was luck, not skill that pulled you through. Give them the ability to get, say, 10% of the xp for a fight even if they lose/run away as long as they were taken to less than 1/10 hp. Most of what you ascribe to racial abilities aren't racial at all, they're class based. Closest D&D comes to this is a Gestalt Monk//Warlock, which gets the unarmed damage progression, energy blasts, damage reduction, fast healing, flight, swirling energy auras, and pretty much everything else a Z-Warrior does.
Teh_username 01-23-08, 08:16 PM	You know, I've seen a whole bunch of "Saiyan" races appear on this board, and not a single one has ever addressed the fact that they're tackling a "race" of which they've only seen 4-7 "fullblooded" members of, all the equivalent of epic-level Monk/Warlocks. Not that most even try to cover all of those 4-7 to begin with - or are you saying that Vegeta, Bardock, and Turles would have a Charisma penalty? As to your attempt in particular: why is it a "template"? Shouldn't a "template" be for the Saiyan Elite, like Vegeta/Nappa (who would be the ones with the "tail immunity" thing, not any Saiyan who took paragon levels)? Where's the Oozaru form, or the much-vaunted Saiyan Rage? Why would they possibly have powerful build, increased land speed, or DR? Why the convoluted Monk/Paragon interaction instead of just saying "stacks with monk levels for etc. etc." or giving Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed Strike) as a bonus feat? Why does a tail-grab drop all of their ability scores and make them incapacitated, instead of just the latter? Do they suddenly lose the ability to speak most languages (Int 3), have severe difficulty seeing (Wis 3) or bluffing (Cha 3), and possibly die from wounds they were easily shrugging off seconds ago (Con 3)? Furthermore, why would they be shaken afterwards? And what made you think that "Intense Training" was possibly a good idea/balanced in any way?
Theinsaneone 01-23-08, 11:15 PM	Damn....You guys are picking this apart... Okay, to start off my defense. The saiyan, was just a name I used in place of what I'll change it to when I find an appropriate substitute. The DR racial ability is in place not because they're immune to things, but more the fact that they are more robust and tough due to their heritage. Which accompanies the Large CON bonus. And in Goku's defense...Krillin can throw rocks really hard!! He's not a normal human. I used the 40 foot base speed, because Saiyans are indeed faster than humans, it doesn't matter if they take levels of monk or not, they're simply faster. How else are saiyan's going to be able to lift large objects? Powerful build just fits. A good example is Goku in the beginning of Dragonball (NOT Z) lifts up Bulma's car, albeit with some difficulty. I get it! The Intense training WAS a bad idea! I'll take that out indefinitely. I didn't put in the Oozaru Form because I haven't gotten around to it. And its not really a Saiyan I'm making. i'm just using the name until I find a more suitable replacement. I don't even remember putting the monk level thing in there...I think my friend stuck it in when I sent it to him to look over.. The improved unarmed strike, was essentially just for characters who didn't want to take levels of monk and concentrate on another class. Though I'm sure I could tweak it a little. Now, with the tail weakness, maybe changing ALL of the stats to 3 isn't practical. Maybe just Strength and Dex would work better. User, you make a valid point with the lowered Wis, Int, Cha, and Con. And they would be shaken because it would take them some time to get their strength back if they didn't make their fort save. If they made it, it instantly comes back. Thanks for your critiques. Even if they were a bit...Mean... :P
Teh_username 01-24-08, 02:37 AM	Okay, to start off my defense. The saiyan, was just a name I used in place of what I'll change it to when I find an appropriate substitute. You say this, then proceed to explain your choices with Dragonball. So are you making Saiyan or not? :confused: The DR racial ability is in place not because they're immune to things, but more the fact that they are more robust and tough due to their heritage. Which accompanies the Large CON bonus. I agree with the Con bonus, but still question racial DR: you're using epic-level characters' abilities as a measure of base racial traits, here. I used the 40 foot base speed, because Saiyans are indeed faster than humans, it doesn't matter if they take levels of monk or not, they're simply faster. seriously what are you talking about here, give an example from anywhere How else are saiyan's going to be able to lift large objects? Powerful build just fits. A good example is Goku in the beginning of Dragonball (NOT Z) lifts up Bulma's car, albeit with some difficulty. Why, that sounds like quite a feat of strength! I wonder if there would be any other way to describe such strength in a race? Perhaps you could give some sort of bonus, to reflect that sort of strength without giving them an ability that doesn't really make sense.... I don't even remember putting the monk level thing in there...I think my friend stuck it in when I sent it to him to look over. The improved unarmed strike, was essentially just for characters who didn't want to take levels of monk and concentrate on another class. Though I'm sure I could tweak it a little. That would be why I was suggesting you change the ability to the standard "has the unarmed damage, AC bonus, & XX of monk equal to paragon levels + monk levels" note you see in some PrCs, similar to the "+1 level of spellcasting" seen in other paragon classes. Now, with the tail weakness, maybe changing ALL of the stats to 3 isn't practical. Maybe just Strength and Dex would work better. User, you make a valid point with the lowered Wis, Int, Cha, and Con. And they would be shaken because it would take them some time to get their strength back if they didn't make their fort save. If they made it, it instantly comes back. Or you could...just use the paralyzed/helpless condition, like I was hinting at? A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless. Thanks for your critiques. Even if they were a bit...Mean... :P That's what I'm here to do.
Prime32 01-24-08, 06:15 PM	seriously what are you talking about here, give an example from anywhere Goku was noted to be very fast when fighting the Ginyu force. That's all I can think of. It's been pointed out in these kinds of threads before that Goku used to be weaker than Krillin, but leveled up faster. For this reason, it was suggested that saiyans have worse racial sats than humans, but get XP bonuses. I'd just forget about Oozaru form - there's no real way to balance it. (All those problems parties have with frenzied berserkers are nothing compared to what happens if the saiyan looks at the moon) One of the Saiyan's signature abilities is adapting to enemy attacks. There is a great example in Dragonball GT, when Goku is fighting Suu Shenron - his big solar cannon attack is devastating the first time, but does almost nothing on the second attack. Saiyans also seem to get stronger as the fight goes on if fighting a superior opponent (some kind of bonus that increases each round?). Oh, and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMUkjcI1s3M&NR=1 :D
BrianMc223 01-24-08, 06:45 PM	Even in dragonball most of the people were epic. As far as I'm aware they never showed a Saiyan that wasn't.
GuyrtheadamantineOne 01-24-08, 07:05 PM	The Lotus Knight (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=954652&highlight=onion+knight+blossom) does the ''Even More Kick-Ass as the Fight Goes On'' game, and it do it pretty well!:)
Theinsaneone 01-25-08, 10:13 PM	It's been pointed out in these kinds of threads before that Goku used to be weaker than Krillin, but leveled up faster. For this reason, it was suggested that saiyans have worse racial sats than humans, but get XP bonuses. That may be true. But Krillin was never known to make feats of strength like lifting a car, or using the Kamehameha, until much later than Goku. because of this is, is why Saiyans are indeed stronger than humans. seriously what are you talking about here, give an example from anywhere There are several examples I can use. You can use the tournament where piccolo fights Goku, and no one could keep up with their movements. Same with Radditz when he arrived on earth. I couldn't see Krillin or Roshi even attempting to see what was happening. Why, that sounds like quite a feat of strength! I wonder if there would be any other way to describe such strength in a race? Perhaps you could give some sort of bonus, to reflect that sort of strength without giving them an ability that doesn't really make sense.... I keep thinking you're trying to tell me something.....Nope...Still not gettin' it... :D I'll boost the strength, and drop the powerful build. But I still think it makes more sense. Because to rival a feat of strength like that, you would have to make the bonus to strength like +8...Its just way too much. I play tested the race, minus the paragon levels and it seems to be pretty balanced....So..I dunno..
Prime32 01-26-08, 06:49 AM	That may be true. But Krillin was never known to make feats of strength like lifting a car, or using the Kamehameha, until much later than Goku. because of this is, is why Saiyans are indeed stronger than humans.Goku lifted a car in the first episode of Dragonball. Much later in the series, when Goku was quite a bit stronger, he met Krillin and was weaker than him. There are several examples I can use. You can use the tournament where piccolo fights Goku, and no one could keep up with their movements. Same with Radditz when he arrived on earth. I couldn't see Krillin or Roshi even attempting to see what was happening.Emphasis mine. :) That's not a Saiyan trait. I'll boost the strength, and drop the powerful build. But I still think it makes more sense. Because to rival a feat of strength like that, you would have to make the bonus to strength like +8...Its just way too much.You realise that powerful build makes it harder to send someone flying through mountains with a punch, right? The Jotunbrud feat is basically Powerful Build minus the larger weapons.
M-bark 01-26-08, 08:03 AM	I think that one thing a lot of people in this thread appear to be looking over, is that the average low-class Saiyan (e.g. Raditz) had a power level of 1,200 in DBZ, whereas the average human had a power level of 5. Emphasis mine. :) That's not a Saiyan trait. Do note that the average Namek was even stronger and faster than a Saiyan. The first few Namek warriors shown had power levels around 3,000. Not to mention the fact that if no-one could keep up with 'their' movements, this still means that they couldn't keep up with Goku's movements, and as such means that they couldn't keep up with Saiyan speed. So yeah, I think it can be safely assumed that Saiyan's physically got the humans beat by a several miles. ;)
Prime32 01-26-08, 01:07 PM	I think that one thing a lot of people in this thread appear to be looking over, is that the average low-class Saiyan (e.g. Raditz) had a power level of 1,200 in DBZ, whereas the average human had a power level of 5. Raditz was still a warrior, and definitely had a great number of class levels - more than Goku, as he was stronger than him when introduced. I believe Goku was supposed to have a power level of 10 in the first episode of Dragonball, but even Akira Toriyama himself dislikes using power levels. (Someone calculated that based on the patterns in the series, Fat Buu's power level is over 300 trillion) Bear in mind that the Suufuls (sp?), implied to be human-level, were able to defeat the Saiyans with ease through technology until the full moon came around (which only happened every few years on planet Plant) and the resulting Oozaru legions commited genocide. It was only after planet Plant became planet Vegeta that the saiyans started gaining serious class levels.
sigma999 01-26-08, 05:58 PM	As discussed on the Guardians of Order forum years ago, Oozaru form as a low level ability is completely unplayable
M-bark 01-26-08, 06:54 PM	Raditz was still a warrior, and definitely had a great number of class levels - more than Goku, as he was stronger than him when introduced. I believe Goku was supposed to have a power level of 10 in the first episode of Dragonball, but even Akira Toriyama himself dislikes using power levels. (Someone calculated that based on the patterns in the series, Fat Buu's power level is over 300 trillion) Bear in mind that the Suufuls (sp?), implied to be human-level, were able to defeat the Saiyans with ease through technology until the full moon came around (which only happened every few years on planet Plant) and the resulting Oozaru legions commited genocide. It was only after planet Plant became planet Vegeta that the saiyans started gaining serious class levels. Quoted straight from the depths of Wiki: Saiyans have a naturally higher strength than a lot of different species, essentially built for fighting. The naturally high gravity of Planet Vegeta develops their strength further, making them considerably strong at young ages. Even the weakest among Saiyans are capable of conquering most planets alone. Perhaps Raditz had quite some levels in Warrior, but he was still considered "average" for a Saiyan. Amongst the Saiyans, the most common NPC class would be Warrior, with almost as good as no Experts, Adepts, Nobles or Commoners. Anyways, you might give these one little downside. It's quite obvious, just no-one has noted it yet: Due to their high metabolism, which enables them to generate much more power than other races, Saiyans must consume enormous amounts of food. However, their extreme desire to eat seems to go beyond necessity, and is a character quirk all Saiyans share. As a child, Goku once downed a 57 course meal at a restaurant. This is not restricted only to full-blooded Saiyans, as even Gohan has been seen eating like a hog.
Edymnion 01-26-08, 07:15 PM	So, you give Saijins Favored Class (Monk), that takes care of the natural unarmed fighter aspect. And yes, Krillian was faster, stronger, and a better fighter than Goku originally. They were exceptional, for sure, but again, in D&D terms, Goku probably started out as at least a 10th level monk, and then later went gestalt Monk//Warlock. Goku was the only non-epic level saijin we ever saw, and he still started out high level. Yeah, so young saijin children can beat most planets. Most planets are populated by nothing but first level commoners, and you're sending the equivolant of a 20th level Monk//Warlock down there, of course they tear the place up. And for the record, Wiki is not a good source to cite in this sort of thing. Give me 5 minutes, and I can have Wiki saying that Goku is a giant carrot (which he is, actually).
sigma999 01-27-08, 01:53 AM	So, you give Saijins Favored Class (Monk), that takes care of the natural unarmed fighter aspect. And yes, Krillian was faster, stronger, and a better fighter than Goku originally. They were exceptional, for sure, but again, in D&D terms, Goku probably started out as at least a 10th level monk, and then later went gestalt Monk//Warlock. Goku was the only non-epic level saijin we ever saw, and he still started out high level. Yeah, so young saijin children can beat most planets. Most planets are populated by nothing but first level commoners, and you're sending the equivolant of a 20th level Monk//Warlock down there, of course they tear the place up. And for the record, Wiki is not a good source to cite in this sort of thing. Give me 5 minutes, and I can have Wiki saying that Goku is a giant carrot (which he is, actually). All true. Very wise. And ironically, by the end of DBZ (no, GT just sucks, I refuse to acknowledge it and its vaguely homoerotic Goku x Vegeta shenanigans) Krillin is the most powerful full blooded human on Earth. Maybe ever.
Teh_username 01-27-08, 02:14 AM	All true. Very wise. And ironically, by the end of DBZ (no, GT just sucks, I refuse to acknowledge it and its vaguely homoerotic Goku x Vegeta shenanigans) Neither does Toriyama-sensei; I can't remember where it is, but there's a statement somewhere that he considers the cameos in Neko Majin/Z to be "canon", rather than any of GT. :D Krillin is the most powerful full blooded human on Earth. Maybe ever. Uh, Tenshinhan? Strong enough to annoy Cell?
Prime32 01-27-08, 09:42 AM	Neither does Toriyama-sensei; I can't remember where it is, but there's a statement somewhere that he considers the cameos in Neko Majin/Z to be "canon", rather than any of GT. :D Um, isn't that the one where Vegeta pretends to get a phone call and runs away from a fight, swearing to never appear in another gag comic? Wow, he must really hate GT. :D
sigma999 01-27-08, 04:17 PM	You call a guy with 3 eyes 'human'? Gawd. Then again, Krillin has no nose and is barely over 3 feet tall, so...
Prime32 01-27-08, 05:00 PM	Does Uub count as human?
Theinsaneone 01-27-08, 09:13 PM	As much as I like discussing DBZ and defending saiyans. Keep in mind that I'm using the saiyan as the base for what I want this race to be. And I'm only calling it a saiyan until I can come up with a more suitable name. But anyways.....Keep dicussing... I like reading this stuff.
M-bark 01-28-08, 01:47 PM	As much as I like discussing DBZ and defending saiyans. Keep in mind that I'm using the saiyan as the base for what I want this race to be. And I'm only calling it a saiyan until I can come up with a more suitable name. But anyways.....Keep dicussing... I like reading this stuff. I propose the next time you try to make something like "this or that" from something like DBZ, your first priority should be an original name. Your second priority would be putting up IN BIG BOLDED WORDS that it is meant to be "similar to this and this, but only similar, not completely alike", etc. Just a tip. ;)
Edymnion 02-04-08, 01:08 PM	And ironically, by the end of DBZ (no, GT just sucks, I refuse to acknowledge it and its vaguely homoerotic Goku x Vegeta shenanigans) Krillin is the most powerful full blooded human on Earth. Maybe ever.I like GT for one reason, Pan. She was my favorite DB character, too bad she would never be able to go SSJ. :( As much as I like discussing DBZ and defending saiyans. Keep in mind that I'm using the saiyan as the base for what I want this race to be. And I'm only calling it a saiyan until I can come up with a more suitable name. But anyways.....Keep dicussing... I like reading this stuff.So, again, what are you doing? Are you trying to make a race that accurately reflects Saijins, are are you just trying to make a race of +5 Ass Kickers that all have Epic level powers as racial abilities?
AaronDireBear 02-04-08, 02:15 PM	You call a guy with 3 eyes 'human'? Gawd. Then again, Krillin has no nose and is barely over 3 feet tall, so... Tenshinhan IS human. But through intense training he has managed to open the 6th gate of his Chakra, which became so intense that it manifested as a PHYSICAL third eye. Oozaru would be a serious TPK hazard even at high levels. Come on, a Line of Force attack fired randomly, smashing everything in sight?
Prime32 02-04-08, 02:30 PM	Tenshinhan IS human. But through intense training he has managed to open the 6th gate of his Chakra, which became so intense that it manifested as a PHYSICAL third eye. That eye worked exactly like the Sharingan, but everyone seemed to forget this after about... two minutes.