Post/Author/DateTime	Post
seTiny 01-16-07, 09:50 AM	This is a race I was playing with, and want to know what other people thought. This is the first race I've developed, so please be kind, but honest. http://img481.imageshack.us/img481/4475/lizardkd7.jpg The Saurilk are a proud race, that have inhabited the newlands since it broke away eons ago. The Saurilk were created for slave labor, by the ancestors of those still left on the old world, to work the hot arid land. For years they worked and tilled for their masters sometimes along side another created slave race, until their masters became more and more violent. At first their masters were kind and lient, but after years of reaping the fruits of others labor, the newer generations were growing cruel and lazy. Most would punish their slaves to prove their superiority, while some pitted slaves against each other for amusement. Finally, the Saurilk and the Jadarn started to rise up against their masters. First only as small groups, but as rumors started to spread the idea of freedom filled the minds of the captives. There was little that the masters could do against their slave's rage. The revolt was swift and complete. The races that once controlled this land had been exterminated, but the rage that the Saurik and Jadarn felt was still an inferno inside them. Confused as to what to do next and still angry the two races soon turned on each other. Years passed before the fighting was finally quelled, when each side realized they face extinction. The races agreed to split the land, Saurilk to the south and Jadarn to the north. The cities became ruins as they eroded with time. Updated: Characteristics: Monstrous Humanoid - +4 Str -2 Dex -2 Int -2 Cha - Saurilk base speed is 30 ft - Medium -Racial Hit Dice: A Saurilk begins with two levels of monstrous humanoid, which provide 2d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +2, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +0, Ref +0, and Will +3. -Racial Skills: A Saurilk’s monstrous humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 5 × (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1). -Racial Feats: A Saurilk’s monstrous humanoid levels give it one feat. - Multiple Arms: Saurilk have four arms and qualify for the multiweapon fighting feat. - Darkvision 60 ft - Counter Weight Tail: +2 Balance checks - Shifting Scales: Saurilk's can shift the color of their scales to help them blend into the surrounding area giving them a +2 bonus to Hide checks. When in wooded areas or tall grass the bonus increases to +8 - Illiterate: The Saurilk were never taught to read, their masters kept them for their brawn. - Cold Blooded: Prolonged (about a minute) exposure to temperatures below 40ºF a Saurilk blood flows much slower hampering its agility. In these conditions a Saurilk suffers a -2 penalty to their reflex saves. - Vulnerability to Cold - Level Adjustment: +1 - Favored Class: Barbarian. Characteristics: - +4 Str -2 Int -2 Cha - Saurilk base speed is 30 ft - Medium - Multiple Arms: Saurilk have four arms and qualify for the multiweapon fighting feat. - Darkvision 60 ft - Counter Weight Tail: +2 Balance checks - Shifting Scales: Saurilk's can shift the color of their scales to help them blend into the surrounding area. +10 to hide checks, full round action to change to new area (Example from the green of the forest to the gray of a dungeon). The Saurilk loses this bonus when she is wearing armor or a full outfit. - Illiterate: The Saurilk were never taught to read, their masters kept them for their brawn. - Cold Blooded: Prolonged (about a minute) exposure to temperatures below 40ºF a Saurilk blood flows much slower hampering its agility. In these conditions a Saurilk suffers a -2 penalty to their Dex and reflex saves. At below 0ºF a Saurilk suffers a -4 penalty to Dex and reflex Saves, a -2 penalty fortitude saves on as well as their base speed drops by 5ft. At below -20ºF a Saurilk suffers a -8 penalty to Dex and reflex saves, -4 fortitude saves, and their base speed drops by 15ft. Any exposure over a minute to temperatures below -40ºF a Saurilk slips into a comatosed state and can only be awaken when brought to warmer temperatures. Cold spells and abilities that deal to Saurilk cause the Saurilk to suffer a -2 penalty to dex and reflex saves for a number of rounds equal to damage dealt/10 (rounded down, minimum 1). -Level Adjustment: +2 - Favored Class: Barbarian.
seTiny 04-09-07, 03:46 PM	:bump: Bump.
Thomar_of_Uointer 04-09-07, 03:53 PM	Characteristics: - +4 Str -2 Int -2 Cha - Saurilk base speed is 30 ft - Medium - Multiple Arms: Saurilk have four arms and qualify for the multiweapon fighting feat. - Darkvision 60 ft - Counter Weight Tail: +2 Balance checks - Shifting Scales: Saurilk's can shift the color of their scales to help them blend into the surrounding area. +10 to hide checks, full round action to change to new area (Example from the green of the forest to the gray of a dungeon). The Saurilk loses this bonus when she is wearing armor or a full outfit. - Illiterate: The Saurilk were never taught to read, their masters kept them for their brawn. - Cold Blooded: Prolonged (about a minute) exposure to temperatures below 40ºF a Saurilk blood flows much slower hampering its agility. In these conditions a Saurilk suffers a -2 penalty to their Dex and reflex saves. At below 0ºF a Saurilk suffers a -4 penalty to Dex and reflex Saves, a -2 penalty fortitude saves on as well as their base speed drops by 5ft. At below -20ºF a Saurilk suffers a -8 penalty to Dex and reflex saves, -4 fortitude saves, and their base speed drops by 15ft. Any exposure over a minute to temperatures below -40ºF a Saurilk slips into a comatosed state and can only be awaken when brought to warmer temperatures. Cold spells and abilities that deal to Saurilk cause the Saurilk to suffer a -2 penalty to dex and reflex saves for a number of rounds equal to damage dealt/10 (rounded down, minimum 1). -Level Adjustment: +2 - Favored Class: Barbarian. The four arms and Hide bonuses are just too good for this to be LA +2. Even with the penalties, it's LA +3.
seTiny 04-09-07, 05:57 PM	The four arms and Hide bonuses are just too good for this to be LA +2. Even with the penalties, it's LA +3. Please explain why. Like I said I am new at creating races, explainations would be very helpful. I still don't like the Shifting Scales ability. I couldn't find any races with a chameleon type ability. I want to give them the ability to blend with their environment, but their equipment and clothes can't blend as well, so +10 might be a little too much. I was basing the bonus off the changelings minor shape change ability, but I don't think it makes sense.
Khatoblepas 04-09-07, 08:11 PM	What type are they? I'd make them Monstrous Humanoid (reptilian) to avoid Enlarge Person shenanegans. Since they have four arms and a (major) strength bonus, I'd up the penalties to: Cold Blooded: Cold damage deals double the amount to Saurilks. Saurilks take a -2 penalty to fortitude saves and constitution checks made while in a cold environment. They really seem like LA+3s even then, but fortunately, we have an option for martial focused races like this one. Racial Hit Die! Just give them two hit die and LA+1, and they're okay.
TheDarkPrince 04-09-07, 10:34 PM	Poison Dusk Lizardfolk (MM lll??) have a chameleon ability, I think, or that might have been a racial feat in one of the Dragon Magazines. Can I post that kind of thing??
seTiny 04-09-07, 10:55 PM	Poison Dusk Lizardfolk (MM lll??) have a chameleon ability, I think, or that might have been a racial feat in one of the Dragon Magazines. Can I post that kind of thing?? No I don't think you can. If I can find a copy of MM2 I will look through it, but I don't have it in my collection.
Neutronium_Dragon 04-09-07, 11:51 PM	There's also the Chameleon Creature in the Underdark book. Their chameleon ability doesn't worry about whether or not they're wearing things, and for the sake of simplicity I'd stick with a flat bonus regardless of what they put on. On the other hand, +4 is probably more reasonable than +10. While it's a bit of a kludge, you might specify that their extra two arms are suited only for manual labor and not usable in combat situations. Hence, they might provide a +2 bonus to some Craft and Profession checks, and be useful for simply holding things, but they can't be used to wield weapons or shields. That keeps them from being a significant advantage in combat and thus removes most of the balance concerns. I would also dump the cold blooded trait. Other cold blooded creatures (including animals) generally don't even bother specifying any effects for it as far as D&D rules are concerned. If you want to apply it, make it something simple: A -2 penalty to Fortitude saves against environmental cold effects, full stop. Illiterate doesn't make sense as a racial trait. Just because their creators didn't teach them the skill doesn't mean that a saurilk who becomes a wizard is going to be incapable of reading. With the above changes, if you drop the Str bonus to +2, they'd probably work out as an LA +0 race, since the things which create issues would have all been removed.
Thomar_of_Uointer 04-10-07, 01:11 AM	Please explain why. Like I said I am new at creating races, explainations would be very helpful. Four arms means they get twice as many attacks. This is a very powerful ability. Their ability scores are also min-maxxed. A Dexterity penalty would hurt them because it's a prerequisite for Multiweapon Fighting, as would a Constitution penalty. However, Wisdom tends to be less useful in melee. I still don't like the Shifting Scales ability. I couldn't find any races with a chameleon type ability. I want to give them the ability to blend with their environment, but their equipment and clothes can't blend as well, so +10 might be a little too much. I was basing the bonus off the changelings minor shape change ability, but I don't think it makes sense. Flat +2 racial bonus to Hide checks. Alternately, give them a +8 racial bonus to Hide checks in any type of terrain or backdrop that they've been in for a minute (as opposed to something like what cats get, a +8 racial bonus to Hide checks in tall grass specifically). If you want to make it complicated, you could have it slowly shift.
seTiny 04-10-07, 11:23 AM	There's also the Chameleon Creature in the Underdark book. Their chameleon ability doesn't worry about whether or not they're wearing things, and for the sake of simplicity I'd stick with a flat bonus regardless of what they put on. On the other hand, +4 is probably more reasonable than +10. Another book I do not have. :( I will probably drop the +10 and make it something like you suggested, but I think I like Thomar's idea for this ability. While it's a bit of a kludge, you might specify that their extra two arms are suited only for manual labor and not usable in combat situations. Hence, they might provide a +2 bonus to some Craft and Profession checks, and be useful for simply holding things, but they can't be used to wield weapons or shields. That keeps them from being a significant advantage in combat and thus removes most of the balance concerns. The four arms are meant to be equal in ability. I would prefer to keep the multiarms. I would also dump the cold blooded trait. Other cold blooded creatures (including animals) generally don't even bother specifying any effects for it as far as D&D rules are concerned. If you want to apply it, make it something simple: A -2 penalty to Fortitude saves against environmental cold effects, full stop. You are the second person to suggest a -2 to fort saves, I guess I should. It is just that cold blooded animals move slower and are less active in colder climates. Wouldn't a dex or reflex penalty be more appropriate? Illiterate doesn't make sense as a racial trait. Just because their creators didn't teach them the skill doesn't mean that a saurilk who becomes a wizard is going to be incapable of reading. In the setting I have created these for they are isolated. Their culture is still very barbaric. Most are hunters (barbarians), while a few are shamans (spirit shamans, clerics or druids in a core only campaign), and a very rare few may even be infused with magic (sorcerers, and warlocks). There are three tribes on the continent island that they inhabit. Two stay away from the ruins of the creators' cities, while one lives in the ruins. They believe since they have killed the creators that the cities are now rightfully theirs. This tribe I may make a sub culture that have different ability mods and are literate, because they have the books and such of their creators. But I want to iron out the race before I make a subculture. Four arms means they get twice as many attacks. This is a very powerful ability. Their ability scores are also min-maxxed. A Dexterity penalty would hurt them because it's a prerequisite for Multiweapon Fighting, as would a Constitution penalty. However, Wisdom tends to be less useful in melee. I may change the -2 Cha to -2 Dex. What is the LA for just the arms? Isn't there a psionic race with multiple arms? The Tri-Keen, I think. Flat +2 racial bonus to Hide checks. Alternately, give them a +8 racial bonus to Hide checks in any type of terrain or backdrop that they've been in for a minute (as opposed to something like what cats get, a +8 racial bonus to Hide checks in tall grass specifically). If you want to make it complicated, you could have it slowly shift. I like this and may implement it.
Thomar_of_Uointer 04-10-07, 11:37 AM	I may change the -2 Cha to -2 Dex. What is the LA for just the arms? Isn't there a psionic race with multiple arms? The Tri-Keen, I think. Thri-Keen are LA +2 with 2 Hit Dice (ECL +4). No race has "just four arms". You can't pin an LA on a single isolated ability, its power is based on many other things (Strength and Dexterity scores, size of weapons you can wield, free proficiencies, bonus feats). This race, with the multiarms and Strength bonus, is LA +3.
seTiny 04-10-07, 11:54 AM	Thri-Keen are LA +2 with 2 Hit Dice (ECL +4). No race has "just four arms". You can't pin an LA on a single isolated ability, its power is based on many other things (Strength and Dexterity scores, size of weapons you can wield, free proficiencies, bonus feats). This race, with the multiarms and Strength bonus, is LA +3. Hmm, I was trying to keep the LA low, but I guess +3 isn't horrible. Right now in the setting they aren't necessarily a playable race. The continent they inhabit has just been discovered. If I advance the timeline they would become more playable.
hobit_90 04-10-07, 01:50 PM	There are only one other race that has a chameolon ability there names are chameolo.
Garonak 04-10-07, 02:36 PM	A -8 to dex AND reflex totals a -12 to reflex... Just pointing it out if you hadn't thought about it... The -2 to fortitude seems like a better idea.
seTiny 04-10-07, 02:47 PM	A -8 to dex AND reflex totals a -12 to reflex... Just pointing it out if you hadn't thought about it... Yeah I had thought of that. It appears that WotC doesn't even take into cold bloodedness into account. Their snakes and lizards don't have any mention of it. What if I made it a -2 to reflex saves and also gave them vulnerability to cold?
Garonak 04-10-07, 04:12 PM	Sounds good Do a remake of the race and either re-post it or edit your first post so that we can se what it looks like now and help you further.
Thomar_of_Uointer 04-10-07, 07:59 PM	Yeah I had thought of that. It appears that WotC doesn't even take into cold bloodedness into account. Their snakes and lizards don't have any mention of it. What if I made it a -2 to reflex saves and also gave them vulnerability to cold? Races of the Dragon has notes on how kobolds react to extreme temperatures. Also, check out the environmental rules, cold weather already deals nonlethal damage and causes fatigue. All you would need to do is adjust the race's tolerance levels for temperature.
Ysera_the_destroyer 04-10-07, 08:08 PM	change the hide bonus to +4 and they're balanced
seTiny 04-10-07, 08:34 PM	change the hide bonus to +4 and they're balanced Apparently not from what others have said...
Thomar_of_Uointer 04-10-07, 10:12 PM	Characteristics: - +4 Str -2 Int -2 Cha - Saurilk base speed is 30 ft - Medium - Multiple Arms: Saurilk have four arms and qualify for the multiweapon fighting feat. - Darkvision 60 ft - Counter Weight Tail: +2 Balance checks - Shifting Scales: Saurilk's can shift the color of their scales to help them blend into the surrounding area. +10 to hide checks, full round action to change to new area (Example from the green of the forest to the gray of a dungeon). The Saurilk loses this bonus when she is wearing armor or a full outfit. - Illiterate: The Saurilk were never taught to read, their masters kept them for their brawn. - Cold Blooded: Prolonged (about a minute) exposure to temperatures below 40ºF a Saurilk blood flows much slower hampering its agility. In these conditions a Saurilk suffers a -2 penalty to their Dex and reflex saves. At below 0ºF a Saurilk suffers a -4 penalty to Dex and reflex Saves, a -2 penalty fortitude saves on as well as their base speed drops by 5ft. At below -20ºF a Saurilk suffers a -8 penalty to Dex and reflex saves, -4 fortitude saves, and their base speed drops by 15ft. Any exposure over a minute to temperatures below -40ºF a Saurilk slips into a comatosed state and can only be awaken when brought to warmer temperatures. Cold spells and abilities that deal to Saurilk cause the Saurilk to suffer a -2 penalty to dex and reflex saves for a number of rounds equal to damage dealt/10 (rounded down, minimum 1). -Level Adjustment: +2 - Favored Class: Barbarian. Mm... It's a strong LA +2, I'd put it at +3 just to be safe due to the Hide bonus. An ambush-build ranger using this race would be deadly.
seTiny 04-11-07, 08:26 AM	I've updated the original post. I put the original stats in a spoiler block.
seTiny 04-11-07, 04:35 PM	:weep: Nothing? :weep:
Khatoblepas 04-11-07, 04:44 PM	What type are they? Humanoid? Monstrous Humanoid? Giant? Abberation? Also, I'd make them have two racial hit die instead of having a really high LA. A naturally tough race should have racial hit die, while a powerful but frail race should have one.
seTiny 06-18-07, 03:28 PM	What type are they? Humanoid? Monstrous Humanoid? Giant? Abberation? Also, I'd make them have two racial hit die instead of having a really high LA. A naturally tough race should have racial hit die, while a powerful but frail race should have one. They would probably be Monsterous Humanoid. If I added two racial hit die, would that make the LA 0?
Khatoblepas 06-18-07, 06:46 PM	It would make the LA +1, as 2HD=+1LA. So it'd be ECL3. :)
seTiny 06-19-07, 10:24 AM	I just looked up the lizardfolk who also have 2HD and are LA +1. Are the Saurilk balanced at 2HD and LA+1? Being Monsterous Humanoids, spells have to be higher level to affect them (daze vs daze monster, hold person vs hold monster). They would also get a better BAB for the two 2HD than a humanoid. So this would be an advantage. The Saurilk have darkvision, were the lizardfolk don't, another advantage. Four arms are a major advantage, at least I've been told they are. Their tails work differently the Saurilk weren't created from aquatic lizards so I don't see a reason to give them a bonus to swim. They both have an ambush attack ability Shifting scales vs hold breath (in dark murky water of a swamp it works, I think) The lizardfolk have natural armor and natural attacks, where as the Saurilk don't. The Saurilk also have a few disadvantages that the lizardfolk don't Illiterate (minor), Cold blooded (slightly minor because they rarely travel to cold areas), and Vulnerablity to cold. Should I make them Humanoid (Reptilian)? Do their four arms make Humanoid a invalid choice? Are they weak for a 2HD LA+1 race? Too strong? Just right? I'm hoping to understand the intricacies of race/monster building before starting on the next race that warred with this one.
Khatoblepas 06-19-07, 12:32 PM	Saurilk are unquestionably Monstrous Humanoids. They're pretty much balanced with nonpsionic thri-kreen. :) Lizardfolk are like gnolls - underpowered. :o
seTiny 06-19-07, 01:19 PM	Cool thanks for the help. Now I can move on to adding more flavor to these guys and creating their rivals (which will have two arms so it will be a little easier for me I think) :)