Savage Species Mind Flayer: Doable? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Savage Species Mind Flayer: Doable? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Negative_Zero
04-24-08, 05:41 PM I'm a fan of Mind Flayers, and I want to try in play one in this next adventure, but I quickly found out that trying to play a base Mind Flayer would be extremely unfair. Between the Hit Die and the level adjustment, I'd either be way too powerful, or I would be way too weak. Savage Species, however, has a way around this, with a setup that makes them playable at low levels. It looks good to me, but I want to know the opinions of people who have actually tried it. Is it balanced well enough to be playable, or does it just look like it? I'm not very experienced, so I can't tell by looking.

On another note, does Mind Flayer count as a class as well as a race? If so, could I take ranks in a class that isn't Mind Flayer? Could I have a Mind Flayer 3/Monk 1 for Improved Unarmed Strike?
Essex
04-24-08, 08:18 PM On another note, does Mind Flayer count as a class as well as a race? If so, could I take ranks in a class that isn't Mind Flayer? Could I have a Mind Flayer 3/Monk 1 for Improved Unarmed Strike?

It is a racial class. That means that you cannot take levels in any class until you finish taking levels in Mind Flayer. Since it is a 15 level racial class, you cannot take actual levels in a PC class until 16th level.

Also note that this is based on the 3rd edition mind flayer. Version 3.5 may be slightly different. Check the racial class versus the 3.5 SRD to see if there are any differences.
Negative_Zero
04-24-08, 08:31 PM Thanks. I'll check up on that.
Mercurius
04-24-08, 10:28 PM You'll actually have to compare in the Monster Manual 3.5 - The Mind Flayer is WotC's intellectual property, so it's not in the SRD at all.

I'm of the general opinion that a small amount of non-racial-class multiclassing is pretty much a good thing for the Savage Species classes. Many of them really do hurt in the long run (lots of LA means significantly diminished HP...), but the earlier levels do work out pretty darn well for most. You generally get more Hit Dice vs LA at the earlier levels, but it's later that everything falls down.
Carrion_Buffet
04-25-08, 01:39 PM I would use a custom solution. Level through the racial levels with a increasing LA.

To make this work you can not have the full benefits of the Illithid until you gain all the racial levels. Work with you DM to work the details out on what is available at what level and whether it will increase the LA. Reducing the LA at low level also helps when figuring out what encounter level the party can handle. If you allow a +7 LA character into a party this will increase the difficulty for the party.

Also I use the ecl differently from what is stated in the rules. I have kept the math where ecl = HD+LA+Class Lvl. But I do not force the rule of experience needed to gain a level, in other words if the race has a +2 LA I do not force the player to gain the experience of 4th level to go to 2nd hit die. I also do not use the starting wealth of level adjusted characters, they start out like any other character.

I do use the ecl while figuring experienced gained from an encounter and figuring the parties EL. When leveling they go up like a multi-classed race, just treat the racial levels as another class that does not count toward a multi-class penalty. Going from 1st level to second level requires the same xp as any other race. But when you do gain xp the amount you gain is much smaller, so it will take you long (i.e. - more kills) too gain the next level.

Using ecl this way allows for the character to work a higher LA monster race into a party while 1) not lagging way behind in HP, AB, etc.. and 2) does not over power the other players and/or encounters at low levels.

You will certainly lag behind the other players in level but not as bad as what the dnd rules would have. The reason for this is that as te party gains levels it take more and more xp to gain the next level, so the LA character gets a small reprieve from its LA. In the case of a +7LA I would guess you will run about 5.5 levels behind the party, if you play into the teens (levels).

Even with this alteration of the rules you will still have fewer hit points, lower ab, saves, etc...you will need to determine if the reduced levels are worth the benefits of being a mind flayer.
DeathlessJuan
04-25-08, 02:21 PM When I run a game using any Savage Species progression, I have a few custom house rules that help level out the HP issues.

Every odd HD in your racial progression, you gain maximun HP for that level (except for 1st, as it is normally maxed). You may only maximize one odd numbered HD for every 2 LA your racial progression will possess, rounded down. For example, A mindflayer has 8 racial HD and +7 LA. At HD 2, 4, and 6, a mindflayer may gain the maximum hp for its HD (7/2 = 3 1/2, or 3 rounded down)

For every three HD you possess, the next HD you gain (4th, 7th, 10th, 13th, etc) can be traded in to buy-off one LA adjustment. This works similiar to LA buy-off in the Unearthed Arcana, but does not require you to possess x3 your LA in HD before you can buy-off LA.

I also have a house rule that allows savage progressions to 'multiclass' before finishing their progressions. You may take one class level after you gain two racial HD through your racial progression. You must return to your racial progression and may not take any additional levels in your multiclass until you gain two additional racial HD or complete your racial progression. You can not take more than one multiclass level until your racial progression is completed.

I have found this to preserve game balance and also allow a bit of flexibility with character creation.
runestar
04-25-08, 10:49 PM The savage progression of the mind flayer does look a tad weak at lower lvs, but it seems like it should make for a fairly strong PC once you finish the progression.

You get quite a number of useful SLAs usable at will. Mindblast, charm monster, suggestion. And game balance pretty much goes out of the window when you finally access planeshift at will. Free healing by transporting the party to the positive energy plane? Yes please. It can also be used as a fairly decent attack power by casting it on your opponent and teleporting him away.

And at lv16+, you can start entering the illithid savant prc, though the chances of the DM throwing a beholder mage/ur-priest/mystic theurge npc for you to suck the brains out of is practically nil...:P (Just joking). But with some agreement with the DM, you should still be able to access a few neat abilities.

In general, I would put a lot of emphasis/notice on SLAs usable at will and consider them very thoroughly, as the game was not designed with PCs having access to nigh-infinite resources in mind, so even a rather weak SLA such as aid or continual light can be very strong if allowed at-will.
Carrion_Buffet
04-27-08, 12:37 PM While there are a number of benefits to playing a flayer, it will be more challenging since his "real level" will lag behind the party. I think he will need those SLA badly. At any rate all the powers a illithid has may not save it from the bodak-in-a-box.

Bodak-in-a-box was a nice "gift" our dm tossed our way. One player was possessed and when we came iinto the room with the coffin he walked over and opened. Out pops a bodak, every rolls a save and only the fighters are left standing after surprised round. The rest of the combat was fought "sans vision".

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Negative_Zero 04-24-08, 05:41 PM	I'm a fan of Mind Flayers, and I want to try in play one in this next adventure, but I quickly found out that trying to play a base Mind Flayer would be extremely unfair. Between the Hit Die and the level adjustment, I'd either be way too powerful, or I would be way too weak. Savage Species, however, has a way around this, with a setup that makes them playable at low levels. It looks good to me, but I want to know the opinions of people who have actually tried it. Is it balanced well enough to be playable, or does it just look like it? I'm not very experienced, so I can't tell by looking. On another note, does Mind Flayer count as a class as well as a race? If so, could I take ranks in a class that isn't Mind Flayer? Could I have a Mind Flayer 3/Monk 1 for Improved Unarmed Strike?
Essex 04-24-08, 08:18 PM	On another note, does Mind Flayer count as a class as well as a race? If so, could I take ranks in a class that isn't Mind Flayer? Could I have a Mind Flayer 3/Monk 1 for Improved Unarmed Strike? It is a racial class. That means that you cannot take levels in any class until you finish taking levels in Mind Flayer. Since it is a 15 level racial class, you cannot take actual levels in a PC class until 16th level. Also note that this is based on the 3rd edition mind flayer. Version 3.5 may be slightly different. Check the racial class versus the 3.5 SRD to see if there are any differences.
Negative_Zero 04-24-08, 08:31 PM	Thanks. I'll check up on that.
Mercurius 04-24-08, 10:28 PM	You'll actually have to compare in the Monster Manual 3.5 - The Mind Flayer is WotC's intellectual property, so it's not in the SRD at all. I'm of the general opinion that a small amount of non-racial-class multiclassing is pretty much a good thing for the Savage Species classes. Many of them really do hurt in the long run (lots of LA means significantly diminished HP...), but the earlier levels do work out pretty darn well for most. You generally get more Hit Dice vs LA at the earlier levels, but it's later that everything falls down.
Carrion_Buffet 04-25-08, 01:39 PM	I would use a custom solution. Level through the racial levels with a increasing LA. To make this work you can not have the full benefits of the Illithid until you gain all the racial levels. Work with you DM to work the details out on what is available at what level and whether it will increase the LA. Reducing the LA at low level also helps when figuring out what encounter level the party can handle. If you allow a +7 LA character into a party this will increase the difficulty for the party. Also I use the ecl differently from what is stated in the rules. I have kept the math where ecl = HD+LA+Class Lvl. But I do not force the rule of experience needed to gain a level, in other words if the race has a +2 LA I do not force the player to gain the experience of 4th level to go to 2nd hit die. I also do not use the starting wealth of level adjusted characters, they start out like any other character. I do use the ecl while figuring experienced gained from an encounter and figuring the parties EL. When leveling they go up like a multi-classed race, just treat the racial levels as another class that does not count toward a multi-class penalty. Going from 1st level to second level requires the same xp as any other race. But when you do gain xp the amount you gain is much smaller, so it will take you long (i.e. - more kills) too gain the next level. Using ecl this way allows for the character to work a higher LA monster race into a party while 1) not lagging way behind in HP, AB, etc.. and 2) does not over power the other players and/or encounters at low levels. You will certainly lag behind the other players in level but not as bad as what the dnd rules would have. The reason for this is that as te party gains levels it take more and more xp to gain the next level, so the LA character gets a small reprieve from its LA. In the case of a +7LA I would guess you will run about 5.5 levels behind the party, if you play into the teens (levels). Even with this alteration of the rules you will still have fewer hit points, lower ab, saves, etc...you will need to determine if the reduced levels are worth the benefits of being a mind flayer.
DeathlessJuan 04-25-08, 02:21 PM	When I run a game using any Savage Species progression, I have a few custom house rules that help level out the HP issues. Every odd HD in your racial progression, you gain maximun HP for that level (except for 1st, as it is normally maxed). You may only maximize one odd numbered HD for every 2 LA your racial progression will possess, rounded down. For example, A mindflayer has 8 racial HD and +7 LA. At HD 2, 4, and 6, a mindflayer may gain the maximum hp for its HD (7/2 = 3 1/2, or 3 rounded down) For every three HD you possess, the next HD you gain (4th, 7th, 10th, 13th, etc) can be traded in to buy-off one LA adjustment. This works similiar to LA buy-off in the Unearthed Arcana, but does not require you to possess x3 your LA in HD before you can buy-off LA. I also have a house rule that allows savage progressions to 'multiclass' before finishing their progressions. You may take one class level after you gain two racial HD through your racial progression. You must return to your racial progression and may not take any additional levels in your multiclass until you gain two additional racial HD or complete your racial progression. You can not take more than one multiclass level until your racial progression is completed. I have found this to preserve game balance and also allow a bit of flexibility with character creation.
runestar 04-25-08, 10:49 PM	The savage progression of the mind flayer does look a tad weak at lower lvs, but it seems like it should make for a fairly strong PC once you finish the progression. You get quite a number of useful SLAs usable at will. Mindblast, charm monster, suggestion. And game balance pretty much goes out of the window when you finally access planeshift at will. Free healing by transporting the party to the positive energy plane? Yes please. It can also be used as a fairly decent attack power by casting it on your opponent and teleporting him away. And at lv16+, you can start entering the illithid savant prc, though the chances of the DM throwing a beholder mage/ur-priest/mystic theurge npc for you to suck the brains out of is practically nil...:P (Just joking). But with some agreement with the DM, you should still be able to access a few neat abilities. In general, I would put a lot of emphasis/notice on SLAs usable at will and consider them very thoroughly, as the game was not designed with PCs having access to nigh-infinite resources in mind, so even a rather weak SLA such as aid or continual light can be very strong if allowed at-will.
Carrion_Buffet 04-27-08, 12:37 PM	While there are a number of benefits to playing a flayer, it will be more challenging since his "real level" will lag behind the party. I think he will need those SLA badly. At any rate all the powers a illithid has may not save it from the bodak-in-a-box. Bodak-in-a-box was a nice "gift" our dm tossed our way. One player was possessed and when we came iinto the room with the coffin he walked over and opened. Out pops a bodak, every rolls a save and only the fighters are left standing after surprised round. The rest of the combat was fought "sans vision".