Sentient illusions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Sentient illusions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
snakeman830
03-25-07, 08:50 PM I was washing the dishes when this idea came to me. Why not have a character who is actually a Permanent Image that somehow gained independence, sentience, and the freedom to move out of that little cube?

Because it isn't really there, it would have no Str or Con scores (it can still move, so Dex remains), would be unaffected by damage (due to having no hp or hd), but also could not do damage itself (at least, not directly. I think sonic effects would still work from it).

Before you think this is overpowered, remember that all it takes is a dispel magic or MD to destroy it. (AMF only surpresses it).

Obviosly, it's possesions couldn't be improved. It could still gain levels, but it wouldn't get the HD or hit points for doing so.

What do you think?
Thomar_of_Uointer
03-25-07, 10:21 PM Hyperintelligent shade of the color blue?

It would be very odd mechanically, you'd be better off simplifying things. I think that having them be shadowstuff (closely related to illusion) would make more sense. Then you could make them be incorporeal and able to manifest, but with and from the Plane of Shadow rather than the Ethereal. Does that make sense?
obrysii
03-25-07, 11:54 PM Check out the Living Spell template in eberron.
Romulus LoneWolf
03-26-07, 12:21 AM I was washing the dishes when this idea came to me. Why not have a character who is actually a Permanent Image that somehow gained independence, sentience, and the freedom to move out of that little cube?

So... Like Red Dwarf's Arnold Rimmer or ST:Voyager's Doctor?
Pizzini3000
03-26-07, 12:32 AM Check out the Living Spell template in eberron.

I think that is the best place to start. However, If it were to be used as a race that advances with class levels, it needs tweaking.

Living spells have some problems: fixed HD, Ooze type, no Int/Mindless, high DR+SR, the slam attacks would need to be defined for an illusion.
Richmud
03-26-07, 10:01 AM Living spells have some problems: fixed HD, Ooze type, no Int/Mindless, high DR+SR, the slam attacks would need to be defined for an illusion.

Well a template in dungeonscape gives them an int score, its very low but its no longer mindless so its a start
Rulebook
03-26-07, 03:18 PM rimmer and the doc would be perm illusions centered on (and eminated from) small devices actually, so they could move about without having to worry about the 10' cube.

giving them sentience would be interesting. and giving them "Shadow Substance" (feat maybe? Feat Chain?) would be interesting as well
Terraneaux
03-26-07, 03:36 PM You could build them as incorporeal, but not ethereal creatures. No strength scores, and you need magic weapons or spells to have even a chance of hurting them.

One of the PCs in one of my games developed a spell that temporarily turned people into illusions that have no effect on the world other than looking pretty.
Neodymium
03-26-07, 03:46 PM wasn't there a character in one of the forgotten realms books that was a sentient illusion?
Thomar_of_Uointer
03-26-07, 05:32 PM One of the PCs in one of my games developed a spell that temporarily turned people into illusions that have no effect on the world other than looking pretty.

Ooooh. I'm thinking level 4 for one round per level, right? Very fun, sounds like the sort of thing an evil sorcerer would use to kill someone's friends and family right in front of him with. I'd like to see that.

So yeah, let's try this. Here's a good example of a permanently incorporeal creature with a set ECL:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/unbodied.htm

But we're going to have to change some things.

Shadowstuff Body (Su): A sentient illusion is given only a semblance of reality by the Plane of Shadow. It has all of the traits of an incorporeal creature. However, it cannot pass through solid objects, it cannot fly, and it does not ignore armor. It has a Strength score and does not gain a deflection bonus to its AC. They are present on the Plane of Shadow, rather than the Ethereal, so unmanifested ghosts and other ethereal creatures cannot interact with them (though they are still affected by effects on the Material Plane that also extend onto the Ethereal Plane, like a wall of force), and they interact with incorporeal creatures as though they are corporeal.

The Unbodied is a good race to use for this. It could be given a Strength score of 10, have its telekinesis replaced by the simple ability to interact with unattended objects (or objects in the posession of a willing or helpless creature) without trouble, and its manifesting could be replaced by spellcasting as a level 4 sorcerer. Because it lacks the ability to fly and hide in objects, its level adjustment could be reduced to +3 or +2. To tie it in more with illusion, you could keep it LA +4 with this ability:

Illusion Weaver (Su): A sentient illusion is very familiar with magical illusions. It automatically succeeds on saving throws against illusion effects.
eridalafar
03-27-07, 10:31 AM wasn't there a character in one of the forgotten realms books that was a sentient illusion?

Yes it have the form of a young female elf, it is in one of the pool of radiance book serie (one fo the last book). She have get in love with a young paladin.

It about all I can recall. It is a nice book to read if you want model for sentient illusion or on no stupid lawfull paladins.

Eridalafar
malykoth
03-27-07, 03:17 PM It would be cool for a class...base it off of the Dread Necromancer, but focusing on illusion in stead of necromancy. The character ends up becoming a sentient illusion at the end instead of a lich. Kind of the wrong forum for any more musings on that, I guess.
snakeman830
03-27-07, 03:53 PM It would be cool for a class...base it off of the Dread Necromancer, but focusing on illusion in stead of necromancy. The character ends up becoming a sentient illusion at the end instead of a lich. Kind of the wrong forum for any more musings on that, I guess.

Ooh. I like that idea.

You guys are right that the mechanics would be difficult, or mabye not.

1. What can illusions do? They can't interact with items, they can't be hurt, they can be sensed by any method except tocuh and taste. Therefore, no hit points or strength score may be a good idea. I'm putting HD back in though (for figuring out how fear affects them). Illusions can speak, hear, and move, so they retain mental ability scores and Dex. They do have a touch AC, figured exactly how a normal creatures touch AC is. This is important for targeted dispel magic. Nothing that does damage can affect a sentient illusion. Anything requiring the illusion to have a material body doesn't affect them (though they are still incapable of passing through visible, tangible barriers). Illusions are still subject to gravity, but they do not take falling damage. Anything that requires sight or hearing still occours normally. Hence, they are still vulnereable to gaze attacks (though they are immune to any effect requiring a fortitude save). Reflex saves may sometimes still be required.

2. What can hurt illusions? anti-magic stuff. anything that dispels magic will get rid of an illusion. AMF will suppress it, effectively removing it until the AMF duration fades.

If you think it's difficult to understand, I'm sorry. I can't really think of a way to make it simpler. Try to think of it mainly as a Permanent Image more than a character and it becomes easier. The most important difference comes in with mind-effecting stuff.
malykoth
03-27-07, 04:05 PM Shadow conjuration creates "quasi-real" illusions from shadowstuff. I would suggest building off the more powerful LV 9 shades spell, though. Just use a shade (as defined by the spell) but give it sentience. Being an illusion, perhaps you could change and shift your substance to mimic nearly any other entity of the same power level (as a use/day special ability)? You would still follow the rules for shadow conjurations, as far as how much actual damage you inflict and can sustain, but you'd own anyone who fails their save.
Thomar_of_Uointer
03-27-07, 05:36 PM Ooh. I like that idea.

You guys are right that the mechanics would be difficult, or mabye not.

1. What can illusions do? They can't interact with items, they can't be hurt, they can be sensed by any method except tocuh and taste. Therefore, no hit points or strength score may be a good idea. I'm putting HD back in though (for figuring out how fear affects them). Illusions can speak, hear, and move, so they retain mental ability scores and Dex. They do have a touch AC, figured exactly how a normal creatures touch AC is. This is important for targeted dispel magic. Nothing that does damage can affect a sentient illusion. Anything requiring the illusion to have a material body doesn't affect them (though they are still incapable of passing through visible, tangible barriers). Illusions are still subject to gravity, but they do not take falling damage. Anything that requires sight or hearing still occours normally. Hence, they are still vulnereable to gaze attacks (though they are immune to any effect requiring a fortitude save). Reflex saves may sometimes still be required.

2. What can hurt illusions? anti-magic stuff. anything that dispels magic will get rid of an illusion. AMF will suppress it, effectively removing it until the AMF duration fades.

If you think it's difficult to understand, I'm sorry. I can't really think of a way to make it simpler. Try to think of it mainly as a Permanent Image more than a character and it becomes easier. The most important difference comes in with mind-effecting stuff.

I already posted what's basically a workable race. Anyways, keep shadows in mind. Shadows are wholy capable of interacting with the world around them (albeit in a limited capacity).

Now, you want a character with no hit points? I really don't know what to say about that.
oracle71
03-27-07, 09:02 PM wasn't there a character in one of the forgotten realms books that was a sentient illusion?

Listle from the FR novel Pool of Twilight. In the novel, Listle became solid by activating a magic pendant, and could deactivate it at will.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
snakeman830 03-25-07, 08:50 PM	I was washing the dishes when this idea came to me. Why not have a character who is actually a Permanent Image that somehow gained independence, sentience, and the freedom to move out of that little cube? Because it isn't really there, it would have no Str or Con scores (it can still move, so Dex remains), would be unaffected by damage (due to having no hp or hd), but also could not do damage itself (at least, not directly. I think sonic effects would still work from it). Before you think this is overpowered, remember that all it takes is a dispel magic or MD to destroy it. (AMF only surpresses it). Obviosly, it's possesions couldn't be improved. It could still gain levels, but it wouldn't get the HD or hit points for doing so. What do you think?
Thomar_of_Uointer 03-25-07, 10:21 PM	Hyperintelligent shade of the color blue? It would be very odd mechanically, you'd be better off simplifying things. I think that having them be shadowstuff (closely related to illusion) would make more sense. Then you could make them be incorporeal and able to manifest, but with and from the Plane of Shadow rather than the Ethereal. Does that make sense?
obrysii 03-25-07, 11:54 PM	Check out the Living Spell template in eberron.
Romulus LoneWolf 03-26-07, 12:21 AM	I was washing the dishes when this idea came to me. Why not have a character who is actually a Permanent Image that somehow gained independence, sentience, and the freedom to move out of that little cube? So... Like Red Dwarf's Arnold Rimmer or ST:Voyager's Doctor?
Pizzini3000 03-26-07, 12:32 AM	Check out the Living Spell template in eberron. I think that is the best place to start. However, If it were to be used as a race that advances with class levels, it needs tweaking. Living spells have some problems: fixed HD, Ooze type, no Int/Mindless, high DR+SR, the slam attacks would need to be defined for an illusion.
Richmud 03-26-07, 10:01 AM	Living spells have some problems: fixed HD, Ooze type, no Int/Mindless, high DR+SR, the slam attacks would need to be defined for an illusion. Well a template in dungeonscape gives them an int score, its very low but its no longer mindless so its a start
Rulebook 03-26-07, 03:18 PM	rimmer and the doc would be perm illusions centered on (and eminated from) small devices actually, so they could move about without having to worry about the 10' cube. giving them sentience would be interesting. and giving them "Shadow Substance" (feat maybe? Feat Chain?) would be interesting as well
Terraneaux 03-26-07, 03:36 PM	You could build them as incorporeal, but not ethereal creatures. No strength scores, and you need magic weapons or spells to have even a chance of hurting them. One of the PCs in one of my games developed a spell that temporarily turned people into illusions that have no effect on the world other than looking pretty.
Neodymium 03-26-07, 03:46 PM	wasn't there a character in one of the forgotten realms books that was a sentient illusion?
Thomar_of_Uointer 03-26-07, 05:32 PM	One of the PCs in one of my games developed a spell that temporarily turned people into illusions that have no effect on the world other than looking pretty. Ooooh. I'm thinking level 4 for one round per level, right? Very fun, sounds like the sort of thing an evil sorcerer would use to kill someone's friends and family right in front of him with. I'd like to see that. So yeah, let's try this. Here's a good example of a permanently incorporeal creature with a set ECL: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/unbodied.htm But we're going to have to change some things. Shadowstuff Body (Su): A sentient illusion is given only a semblance of reality by the Plane of Shadow. It has all of the traits of an incorporeal creature. However, it cannot pass through solid objects, it cannot fly, and it does not ignore armor. It has a Strength score and does not gain a deflection bonus to its AC. They are present on the Plane of Shadow, rather than the Ethereal, so unmanifested ghosts and other ethereal creatures cannot interact with them (though they are still affected by effects on the Material Plane that also extend onto the Ethereal Plane, like a wall of force), and they interact with incorporeal creatures as though they are corporeal. The Unbodied is a good race to use for this. It could be given a Strength score of 10, have its telekinesis replaced by the simple ability to interact with unattended objects (or objects in the posession of a willing or helpless creature) without trouble, and its manifesting could be replaced by spellcasting as a level 4 sorcerer. Because it lacks the ability to fly and hide in objects, its level adjustment could be reduced to +3 or +2. To tie it in more with illusion, you could keep it LA +4 with this ability: Illusion Weaver (Su): A sentient illusion is very familiar with magical illusions. It automatically succeeds on saving throws against illusion effects.
eridalafar 03-27-07, 10:31 AM	wasn't there a character in one of the forgotten realms books that was a sentient illusion? Yes it have the form of a young female elf, it is in one of the pool of radiance book serie (one fo the last book). She have get in love with a young paladin. It about all I can recall. It is a nice book to read if you want model for sentient illusion or on no stupid lawfull paladins. Eridalafar
malykoth 03-27-07, 03:17 PM	It would be cool for a class...base it off of the Dread Necromancer, but focusing on illusion in stead of necromancy. The character ends up becoming a sentient illusion at the end instead of a lich. Kind of the wrong forum for any more musings on that, I guess.
snakeman830 03-27-07, 03:53 PM	It would be cool for a class...base it off of the Dread Necromancer, but focusing on illusion in stead of necromancy. The character ends up becoming a sentient illusion at the end instead of a lich. Kind of the wrong forum for any more musings on that, I guess. Ooh. I like that idea. You guys are right that the mechanics would be difficult, or mabye not. 1. What can illusions do? They can't interact with items, they can't be hurt, they can be sensed by any method except tocuh and taste. Therefore, no hit points or strength score may be a good idea. I'm putting HD back in though (for figuring out how fear affects them). Illusions can speak, hear, and move, so they retain mental ability scores and Dex. They do have a touch AC, figured exactly how a normal creatures touch AC is. This is important for targeted dispel magic. Nothing that does damage can affect a sentient illusion. Anything requiring the illusion to have a material body doesn't affect them (though they are still incapable of passing through visible, tangible barriers). Illusions are still subject to gravity, but they do not take falling damage. Anything that requires sight or hearing still occours normally. Hence, they are still vulnereable to gaze attacks (though they are immune to any effect requiring a fortitude save). Reflex saves may sometimes still be required. 2. What can hurt illusions? anti-magic stuff. anything that dispels magic will get rid of an illusion. AMF will suppress it, effectively removing it until the AMF duration fades. If you think it's difficult to understand, I'm sorry. I can't really think of a way to make it simpler. Try to think of it mainly as a Permanent Image more than a character and it becomes easier. The most important difference comes in with mind-effecting stuff.
malykoth 03-27-07, 04:05 PM	Shadow conjuration creates "quasi-real" illusions from shadowstuff. I would suggest building off the more powerful LV 9 shades spell, though. Just use a shade (as defined by the spell) but give it sentience. Being an illusion, perhaps you could change and shift your substance to mimic nearly any other entity of the same power level (as a use/day special ability)? You would still follow the rules for shadow conjurations, as far as how much actual damage you inflict and can sustain, but you'd own anyone who fails their save.
Thomar_of_Uointer 03-27-07, 05:36 PM	Ooh. I like that idea. You guys are right that the mechanics would be difficult, or mabye not. 1. What can illusions do? They can't interact with items, they can't be hurt, they can be sensed by any method except tocuh and taste. Therefore, no hit points or strength score may be a good idea. I'm putting HD back in though (for figuring out how fear affects them). Illusions can speak, hear, and move, so they retain mental ability scores and Dex. They do have a touch AC, figured exactly how a normal creatures touch AC is. This is important for targeted dispel magic. Nothing that does damage can affect a sentient illusion. Anything requiring the illusion to have a material body doesn't affect them (though they are still incapable of passing through visible, tangible barriers). Illusions are still subject to gravity, but they do not take falling damage. Anything that requires sight or hearing still occours normally. Hence, they are still vulnereable to gaze attacks (though they are immune to any effect requiring a fortitude save). Reflex saves may sometimes still be required. 2. What can hurt illusions? anti-magic stuff. anything that dispels magic will get rid of an illusion. AMF will suppress it, effectively removing it until the AMF duration fades. If you think it's difficult to understand, I'm sorry. I can't really think of a way to make it simpler. Try to think of it mainly as a Permanent Image more than a character and it becomes easier. The most important difference comes in with mind-effecting stuff. I already posted what's basically a workable race. Anyways, keep shadows in mind. Shadows are wholy capable of interacting with the world around them (albeit in a limited capacity). Now, you want a character with no hit points? I really don't know what to say about that.
oracle71 03-27-07, 09:02 PM	wasn't there a character in one of the forgotten realms books that was a sentient illusion? Listle from the FR novel Pool of Twilight. In the novel, Listle became solid by activating a magic pendant, and could deactivate it at will.